HOHO off to a slow start

Can we buy a daily pass on these busses? Makes sense right!

So if I want to go shopping from one location to another I dont have to buy a 10 Rupee ticket each time. I can buy justa  Shopping Pass and hope around for the whole day!

Blue Line http://abide.mapunity.org...

Orange Line http://abide.mapunity.org...

The suggestions in the previous post are well taken. Some of this is in the works. I'm still waiting for the buses to be ready. I hear that from Monday we will start seeing a steady roll of branded Big10 buses come on to the fleet, and that should help.

There is also a plan to hop the Blue line over to cover Safina Plaza and Commercial Street as well instead of going straight through on Cubbon Road. Promotional material will be handed out in the key high-footfall areas on the lines (Garuda Mall, Commercial Street, UB City, Hudson Circle, Manipal Centre and a couple of other locations) either this weekend or on Monday.

I will ride the bus a couple of times on the weekend again to see what I can learn further. There are some driver issues to be sorted out as well - if the service is to be good, we have to pay attention to the drivers' health, sanitation and comfort factors too.

Please choose the bus.

Ashwin
p.s. Srivathsa, no offence taken. I know a lot of people mean well, and their inputs are a reflection of their enthusiasm and hope that things will get better. We have to try.

Hello All, I am a new comer to this group. I travel daily from Bannerghatta Road (Arakere Gate) to Lavelle Road by Bus. For the past few days, I have been taking my car (temporarily), and honestly speaking I reach back home completely exhausted. The traffic is just unbearable. On seeing the HOHO route maps, the first point that came to my mind is that MANY parts of the "so-called" CBD has not been covered. The route seems to have been drawn to the crew's convenience. Say a person reaches St Patricks Church (This is the end point for the Hosur road Big-10 Service), and needs to go towards Indian Express junction - there is no way but to wait for a normal bus that comes behind. Then, why would the person prefer to take a Big-10, then come to one stop and then wait for a bus, which he would have got into at his earlier stop itself! HOHO services should be started even on diagonal routes to the existing ones.

LED boards on painted buses - redundant, yes, but the boards are already there in most buses! Also, on some Big10 routes there will be overlapping sections (Hosur Road and Bannerghatta Raod services for example, will overlap between Vellara Jn and the cemetery), so the LED board can be useful in those cases. Better signage on the boards - will see if I can standardise this.

Please choose the bus.
A

Does the KS ticket allow me to change over to other regular BMTC bus for last mile connectivity?

I don't think KS is any innovative than the existing ones. Except for route and its flashy clored buses, it is the same service that BMTC has been trying to provide all the years. More than that BMTC is running these services, not any private player or consortium, therefore we are seeing the same inefficiencies. Does the Bus stops, Info Boards and frequency any better than that serves other regular bus service?

 The actual KS ride experiences that have been posted here on praja clearly points to the fact that it doesn't add any value or mitigate the daily commute. What I mean by doesn't add value is like allowing for transfer of tickets to ordinary BMTC bus etc.This service would really add value to the PT, if it had been planned as part of the restructuring of BMTC service and commuters have facility to transfer to other service for their onward journey.

Binaiks, you have hit nail on its head

When buses restrict themselves to major arterial roads, they may move faster, but as you point out, it means commuters have to walk more or waste time waiting for so called feeder buses - basically time is lost and people find it so frustrating that they start looking at alternatives (what better than a 2 wheel drive).

In contrast this is what happens in Mumbai http://pune.praja.in/discuss/forums/2009/02/some-best-bus-routes-i-used

But good news is Bangalore is well ahead in the game with regards number of travel worthy buses compared to Pune. Solving route related problems is actually easy.

Again ticketing should be easier - regional zones rather than handful of routes as a way of unlimited access on all types of buses is the key.

ASJ

IDS,

 HoHo according to the ABIDE planners is a connecting service in conjunction with BIG-10 service. This is what R K Mishra writes in his email "http://bangalore.praja.in/blog/rithesh/2009/02/16/abide-transportation-plans-letter-rk-mishra".

 To me that is a good thinking and would look forward to its success ASAP. The reason being every public transport service should compliment, not compete with each other.

 Coming from configuration management and process improvement area, I would compliment the planners for introducing such a service. An imperfect implemented idea is far superior than Non-implemented perfect idea. I hope there is a crack team from ABIDe and BMTC that is tasked to fix the gaping holes (if any) in the KS & BIG-10 service.

 As you also pointed out, now the planner's should take the 2nd step of getting the maximum utility out of existing operations from BMTC, Taxis, Cabs and Autos. My personal take is it is very much possible to do this without having to expand the fleet.

Certainly BMTC operation needs deep closer look and requires a re-haul of their entire operation. Also needed is some innovative policy making that would make auto, taxis and cabs become supplementary service provider for the public transportation for last mile connectivity or special needs.

 Syed

Hi Prof Ashwin Mahesh

I expect you are finding the feedback from PRAJA members quite useful. Can we possibly have a joint meeting with you, R K Misra, Dastagir Sherrif, Mr Pasha, and whoever you feel would be useful, ideally on a Saturday, so that Prajagalu can be there in strength?

Muralidhar Rao

The BMTC should do something, anything, to get people into these buses, because I'm sure there are people who may otherwise perhaps consider taking the buses who are put off, thinking there's something wrong with the service if it runs empty all the time. How good can it be if no one else is using them?

Tonight I experienced my first major delay over the six or so days I've been using the KS. I waited 32 minutes for a Blue near the Police Housing Complex on Old Madras Road at around 8pm. So there probably were about four buses bunched up right behind. The conductor recognised me from five days ago - more proof of how little the service is patronised.

This is my journey on a London bus, lucky to have had vantage point on a double deck. But forget bus lanes for a while, notice the route taken by my bus (and there are 4-6 other routes all at 8-12 min frequencies) - it takes you closer to your destination than any other mass transit can - almost a door to door service and hence saving on time needed for walking or interchanges. Thumb rule - never restrict buses to just major roads and also avoid a class system of buses (it only complicates route rationalisation). Pune too has announced 6 different types of bus classes from ordinary to luxury AC - all at different costs - Wonder who worked out the demographics of who and how many will use which class? Expect some classes to go empty, but generally there will be sub-optimal use of the fleet.

ASJ

Hi All,

Having read through various inputs in this thread, I am not convinced this will work at all. Binai Sankar & Prof Ashwin Mahesh – many thanks for your views.

Many of the negatives have already been summarized above, but there is one very important point that has been missed out :  The service/s have not been supplemented with a vital action that is needed to ensure it’s success, which is restraining the use of cars & two-wheelers within the CBDs.

It is obvious that public modes for commuting can never match the conveniences of private modes. Thus, public transport, particularly street-based public transport in India is always fighting a losing battle with individual private vehicles since they do not have any priorities for quicker movement & will remain less efficient than private modes, operating in mixed traffic conditions. Private modes will thus, continue to remain as the first choice. Some may use this service, but these are bound to be only the “overflows” from the vehicles on the streets – the streets will continue to remain full of vehicles. Service standards of street-based public transport can only be as good as the traffic conditions will allow it to be, as regards punctuality & speed of travel. The effort of trying to offset this by improving the supply side with excellent, high quality air-conditioned, low-floor buses will not work, as it is secondary to commuters, who mainly seek quick access, low wait times, & fast travel. If the traffic continues to be heavy, buses will lose out as they can never maneuver as well as the more nimble private vehicles.

Traffic within CBDs & the approaches can easily be restrained by introducing very high parking charges as also reducing the supply of parking slots & strictly monitoring misuse of street sides for parking. This will erect barriers for private vehicle use & complaints of improper bus services will be received since people will have fewer alternatives for commuting within the CBDs. Thus, route plans & frequencies will demand & receive more attention, & eventually, the services may become successes, though this will take a lot of effort & patience.

Until traffic restraints are put up, these new services may not work, except to take on a few commuters who opt out of their private vehicles due to excessive traffic – the bulk of the traffic will remain & these new bus services may fail.

Prof.Mahesh,

Many thanks for keeping us up-to-date about these services. You indicated that public transport has to be strong before 'disincentivising' of personal transport can happen.

Parking is not being charged anywhere in the city in public spaces, such as along street sides & in common public parking lots. This was being done before, but it has been stopped now for many years.

With free parking for private vehicles anywhere in the city, undercharging (in fact no charging at all) for road or flyover use, & no priority measures for public transport on the streets, how will public transport ever become strong ? Is not public transport becoming strong linked to travel with private vehicles becoming weak simultaneously ?

What I foresee is that these buses, aimed at car & two-wheeler users, will keep running empty since there are no "push away" factors to make people abandon their vehicles & use the buses. Users for these buses will be the same people who are already using BMTC for their commutes. Thus, cars will remain on the streets & slow down movement of these buses. I beleive that people will never get out from their cars unless cost of travel by cars is made much higher & poses substantial inconveniences, such as non-availability of parking slots, etc. Till such time, this traffic nightmare is bound to continue. Those that use public transport would only be the ones who are non-motorized or are "overflows" from the streets. Unrestrained dominance by private vehicles on the streets would continue, as usual.

Hence, I had earlier mentioned that isolated attempts would not succeed in bringing about a turnaround & limit this growth in vehicle volumes.

Prof. Ashwin Mahesh, thanks for keeping us posted. I just wanted to add that the Hudson circle is the gateway for the southern areas of Bangalore. All the buses from Jayanagar, Banashankari, BTM, Hanumanthnagar touch here. Having both the HOHO routes touch the Hudson Circle would have helped a lot. Currently Orange Route does not touch Hudson Circle.

Second is having the HOHO touch the Vidhana Soudha. Both the routes should have criss crossed each other here. Lots of Government employees work in the Indian Express, Vidhana Soudha area. What I have seen is many get down at Hudson Circle popularly known as Corporation Circle and taken an Auto to these areas. Having HOHO to extend  here would have prevented the losses to BMTC provide easy transport to offices.

Modification of the Existing Routes -

Blue Line -  Currently From Kanteerava Stadium, it touches Hudson Circle and takes right onto UB City.

Modification - From Kanteerava Stadium, it should take left towards Corporation Office and Proceed on the Kempegowda Road till Mysore Bank. Take right on the Mysore Bank, proceed in front of Central College, cross KR Circle, Reach Vidhana Soudha, take right on the Indian Express, proceed towards Cricket Stadium, MG Road and continue on the existing route.

Orange Line -  Currently from Minsk Square, buses are proceeding towards Cricket Stadium and passing infront of Mallya Hospital.

Modification - From Minsk Square, it should proceed further till Indian Express signal, take left in front of Vidhana Soudha, proceed straight towards Hudson Circle in front of RBI crossing the KR Circle, take left towards UB City and again take right in front of Mallya Hospital and proceed with the existing route.

I was also thinking why not these HOHO buses should not be allowed on the MG Road main street between Anil Kumble Circle and Brigade Road Circle. Having these buses enter this stretch and having a stop in front of MG Road Metro Station would give excellent transport integration.

Also, Hudson Circle is an important junction for BMTC users. Chaning the bus stops here is an hassle for a pedestrain. Why not have a circular skywalk connecting Bus Stop in front of Corporation Circle, Bus Stop in front of Marthas Hospital on KG Road and Bus Stop on the Kasturba Road. Hop on Hop off will work seamlessly if we have these facilities.

Daypass for HOHO at say 25 rupees, Vajra+HOHO day pass at say 75-100 rupees, normal+HOHO day pass at say 50 rupees will help a lot. Starting monthly normal+HOHO pass, Pushpak + HOHO pass, Suburban+HOHO pass would  make this effort succeed further.

 IDS,

  Without fixing the supporting infrastructure, we are expecting BMTC, ABIDE and other urban planners to do magic. As you said, flashy buses, circular routes doesn't necessarily a recipe for success. Unless bus stops at the bus stop what is the use of this offering. It is as good as no service that exists before the introduction of HoHo.

Exactly those were my views on the subject. But seems lost in the other noises.

http://bangalore.praja.in/discuss/forums/2009/02/hoho-a-slow-start#comment-11242

 I am not sure whether we did give any thought on direction and approach to the proposed fixes for our urban transport woes.

1. All the panning, discussions seems to center around creating better infrastructure for private vehicles, cars and have's only.
2. More BMTC services Volvos, KS and BIG-10 all catered towards Car users.

 Not a single attempt, planning, service to cater to those lakhs of ordinary B'lore citizens who for past40-50 years have patronize BMTC (and its previous avatar BTS). No concerned for the citizens who do not have any transport except the public transport.

Most of the big 10 roads meets the ORR using flyovers or underpasses. Example is the silkboard junction where Big 10 buses pass over flyover, Bannerghatta Road where buses pass in the underpass. Pedestrains have to walk on unfriendly foot paths and badly timed signals to go between Big10 and ORR  buses. Something needs to be done on this.

I was reading Emirates strategy on Devesh's blog and was impressed how they customized their flights to take advantage of Bangalore's IT connections to US/Europe. BMTC could take a leaf out of this and go one step further from standard peak hour definitions. They can get traffic patterns analyzed by the industries in the major regions of Jigni, EC, Whitefield, Peenya and tune their peak hour definitions to provide maximum benefit. Jigni and Peenya have domestic brick and mortar industries which may go by standard peak hour while Whitefield and EC will have their peak hours shifted later because they need more overlap with US / Europe. The Big 10 frequency can be tuned accordingly.

Of course this is wishful thinking from me. BMTC will run buses when their drivers turn up for work on Bangalore Standard Time not when it makes sense.

But, the only problem with that will be that the traffic flow on PRAJA will reduce drastically

No problems on that front. In our lifetime the quality of living is destined to be miserable. We are only fighting to see our children live in a better place. We already have pedestrian pictures up on another thread, people in the deepest forests of Africa will have better facilities.

Regarding Binai's comment, I feel the HOHO service on Richmond Road (which already has regular BMTC services) should be rerouted via Johnson Market - Cemetry - Wilson Garden - Shantinagar - Mission Road - Town Hall - Hudson Circle. That way, it can connect to the BIG-10 services and also serve people from Shantinagar Bus Stand as well as those in the congested areas surrounding Mission Road, Town Hall etc.

How 'low' are the load factors? In your trip between Bilekahalli and Brigade Road, how many people do you think would have been on the bus in all (albeit in different segments)? The Suvarnas cost about Rs.23 per km to operate, so on each Big10 route, it costs about 350 bucks to run the bus. At an average of Rs.10 per ticket, that's 35 tickets, and if you assume segmentation of 25%, this is a load factor of 60 per cent (there are 44 seats). So, if everyone has a seat, and about 10 seats are empty throughout the journey, the service will still pay for itself!

The first few days of data from the Big10 services suggests that this is happening. Yesterday, for the first time I saw a schedule (BMTC parlance for a vehicle) that earned a profit, in terms of rupees per kilometre, over the course of the whole day.

I took the Kendra Saarige service today, and discovered a couple of nice things. Taj Residency has figured out that it can use the service for its clients who have business meetings in UB City. Next week I'll talk to more hotels in the area about this kind of value in a systematic way.

Please choose the bus.
A

I agree with Srivatsa.

Great Busses does not mean great Service!

One pro active agency (BMTC) cannot solve the problem. It has to be a joint effort from all stakeholders. And really, as a car owner if I did want to take a HOHO - where CAN I park my car? I drove around the route looking for Ideas but there was no definite parking spots. The usual Spots where I park my car if entering CBD are: Garuda Mall, Symphony Theatre, Opposite Opera house on brigade and Rest House road! Everything is walkable from here, I wont use a Bus service.

I would really like BBMP and BDA to have a stake in the HO HO Service.  It pains me to see expensive fuel guzzling busses go stark empty! Whilst thier sisters on the 335E route seem to running house full!

Lastly, no body is going to swicth from a car option unless they are forced to. So we need some exorbidant parking fees, congestion tax and solid enforcement. But before that we need a reliable, clean and comfortable service.

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Devesh,

  Sorry to be very blunt. To me this service lay outs the thought process of our planners. The whole planning revolves around the car owners. There is nothing in this service that serves anything to the ordinary daily commuters who uses BMTC service regularly. In that scenario, it will not be wrong to describe this service as "ELITE service, for Elite Class, By the Elite People".

Don't expect the HoHo service to be runaway success. The service lacks in everything that it needed to be successful. Tell me what is the difference between an ordinary BMTC Black board bus and this HoHo bus, except for the flashy Bus and the route? Except these 2 different variables, nothing has changed on ground. Same bus stop exists, which neither can explains the rational for its location nor for its usage. Same operational mentality, Drivers and conductors continues to operate in Govt/public relationship rather than in Producer/customer relationship. How can you expect increase in ridership if the bus doesn't stop at bus stop? As commented by Yajamanre in his post, would you patronize the service which doesn't even give damn about you?

 We all went gaga abut Brunner and Co in BIAL, saying they don't listen. Looking at the luke warm responses I see here on this discussion, we seems to be competing with BIAL management. Pages have been written here with real time experiences along with some sensible suggestions. Except for few here & there comments, I am yet to hear a comprehensive response to the given feedback and grievances. May be we use 2 different measures - One for Brunner & co and one for own ABIDe, BMTC and govt to be not left behind.

 Devesh, show me the urge and willingness on planners part to engage the commuter community, all in the interest of the general public, I will take the next flight and camp in B'ore for full one week. I will personally distribute fliers/handbills and advertise the HoHo service in all major public convergence places like bus stands, malls etc.

 Why me, every Praja member would go out on weekends and start advertising, provided they are also engaged. It should be 2 way engagement.

The First bus from Electronic City leaves only at 0850, while the last bus goes at 2220. Although running buses late at night is a good feature, but what does BMTC intend to convey by running the first bus only at 0850?
 

EC is a predominantly industrial area and not a residential one. The only ones leaving from EC in the morning will the people who stayed over on night shift who will be relieved when the morning staff arrives. It makes sense to have buses leaving when the first buses start arriving. Also the peak hours in places like EC and ITPL is not the same as peak hours in either CBD or places like Peenya or Jigani.

While I agree BMTC is generally sleepy and not friendly to an early starter it is important to have some data on the number of early workers and tune it appropriately. All BMTC needs to do is ask ELCIA to provide shift and travel patterns in EC which will be very good stats to start services appropriately.

Better bus stop integrations between ORR and Big10 routes needed. May be a TTMC at Jayadeva (no land there for TTMC, BMTC needs to figure out), Silkboard for integration with Hosur Road, Kanakapura Road (Banashankari Bus Stand can do this), Nayandahalli / Kengeri for Mysore Road, Marathalli Bridge for Airport Road, KR Puram Railway station for Old Madras Road, Hebbal for International Airport Road and Tumkur Road.

These TTMCs with buses from ORR as well as Big 10 entering into it (I really don't know how to do it) should ease the change of buses just like changing trains in a train station.

Professor, Tata Marcopolos running on Delhi BRT routes are quite easy for boarding just like Volvo with lowfloors. BMTC initially bought 2 A/C Marcopolos and did not procure it further. Non A/C Marcopolos are as faster as Volvos and equivalent to cars in speed with half the cost at around 35 Lakhs. Why can't BMTC try it on Big 10 routes and have alternative Volvo and Marcopolo non A/C for HOHO service.

Currently the Suvarna buses are very poor in pickup and with manual transmission. One day I took Volvo on the ORR to the office in peak hours and it took me 40 minutes another day sametime, same traffic scenario I took the Suvarna, it took nearly 1 hour with the same stops. Bus pickup was very poor.

One of the demotivating factor for people to take Public Transport is the poor speed and poor frequency. This poor speed can definitely eliminated by having buses equally faster as cars. Automatic transmission buses also eliminates the jerks.

In Delhi, there were many reports stating that many features on marcopolo buses did'nt work properly. In addition, another brand of buses from China (Siun-lunge, or some such name - used in mumbai, I think) also has complaints, according to paper reports I had read some time back when they had just been introduced.

The success of volvos in bangalore can be attributed mainly to excellent suspension, quick pick-ups & speed. One never sees a door left open or a bus struggling uphill. Thus, the ride quality is really great. In any case, I dont think a 35 lakh bus can be as good as a 70 lakh bus for sure !

IDS:

Very true that low floow helps diabled/old/children. But, what I mean is that even "normal" people prefer using thier car as opposed to climbing three steps to get on a bus!

Naveen:

Yes, there is no way a 35 Lak bus can better a 70 Lak bus. But, assuming the present blue and white/suvarna busses costs about 25-35 laks each is there any way to build them in a better way? Mayne NOT A/C but low floor, pneumatic doors that work/remain shut and that they dont struggle over a speed breaker!

I feel we need a bit more luxury in our present suvarna kind of busses. Luxury not in the sense of reclining seats but some simple ergonomics, space and clever thinking. Definately the busses used in Bangalore are far better than the BEST/Chennai or delhi busses. But if we could go that extra mile - we may even make a bigger difference.

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Mumbai is using King Long A/C buses, a chinese make.

I think we are drifting away from reliability and reach issues plauging our PT services today which are the key to mass acceptance

Reliability is your ability to plan meetings relying on PT and consistency in travel times.

Reach is your ability to get a service within 500mtrs from anywhere in the city.

Beyond that even the best looking buses will come a cropper.

Prof. Mahesh, Kendra Saarige entering KBS introduces lots of delays due to traffic Mysore Bank onwards and back till Maharanis. We have every locality in Bangalore connected to KBS with virtually 75% of BMTC buses entering Majestic. With Metro line also intersecting at KBS, I think it is not needed for KS to enter KBS.

This will increase the frequency of buses and reduce the delays. It would be more attractive to customers.

Curysey - Deccan Chronicle.

DC Reports "..The Big 10 bus service is causing traffic snarls in the heart of the city. Ironically, the service was introduced to decongest the Central Business District (CBD)..." For details read,

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/neutral/big-10-causes-big-trouble-city-roads-720

On the HOHO map, there are no arrow marks in the direction in which the buses travel.  Often I interpret bus traveling in opposite direction. Arrow marks needs to be added.

Also just to have BLUE LINE and ORANGE LINE side by side, many places they have done the mistake in drawing the map. For example, Orange line does not enter the Lalbagh west gate, only blue line enter Lalbagh west gate. In the image, ORANGE LINE is so close to BLUE LINE near Lalbagh West Gate but without a circle there using which we have to guess that ORANGE LINE does not come to Lalbagh West Gate.

Main loop around is Majestic. Just for integration with Magadi Road, they seem to have taken the HOHO to Majestic. Otherway around, BMTC wants almost all its vehicle enter Majestic.