Metro Rail too much to handle - Can we leapfrog...

5 September 2007 - 1:01pm — cvikash

Where as the need of a high capacity transit system for our cities is beyond any doubt,at a cost of Rs. 16000 crores for about 33 kms., as it stands on this day and further escalation anticipated, Bangalore Metro looks pretty expensive. Can Bangalore leapfrog into a next generation public transport system ? The answer today is a resounding "YES". The new system called MetroLITE will in turn use a fleet of eco-friendly vehicles - 15-seater open minibus and auto-rickshaw running on electric or 4-stroke LPG, electric cars, electric scooters and lots of bicycles - parked at demand-responsive locations around the city. These will be used to service short trips and feeder trips to an advanced form of on-demand bus service and carpooling. Metro/mono rail will be used at the high density corridors "at grade", wherever required. Together, it is estimated that at an average cost of Rs. 20 crores per kilometer for an estimated network of 600 kms., we can have a full-fledged transport system - that will offer personalised mobility services - for Rs. 12000 crores. Compare this with Metro Rail cost of Rs. 16,000 crores for 33 kms. A way to go...

Comments

interesting stuff

tsubba - 5 Sep 2007 - 5:11pm

Hi Vikash, Quazi public vehicles' network. Interesting! I too think autos are a great business and make great sense as a transit option, but they are poorly organized to realize their true potential. WRT to your idea i have a few questions... #1. without right of way, if metro has to compete with peds and traffic, it is just an expensive tram, which no city with bangalore's profile uses. how can at grade metro work? #2. for some reason, city planning is strangely poor/absent in BLR. Take whitefield for example, the internal road network is extremely poor. Village roads have been asphalted and converted to urban roads. they have allowed really dense development by permitting all sorts of commercial, industrial and residential complexes to come up, yet the roads are narrow and ped facilities non existent. Transit infrastructure is not sufficient to handle even this internal movement, forget added congestion due to people coming in from other parts of the city. similar inconsistencies are found in other areas. without addressing this, how does adding more quasi public vehicles to the already high number of private vehicles help? lack of planning and sprawl means transit is not only crucial but also a pressure point. one way or the other, the city will have to spend lots of money now to address this problem.

Need for a multi-pronged approach

cvikash - 5 Sep 2007 - 7:08pm

Hi! i. If you just look around, even in the most congested traffic, a large proportion of seats are empty. Amongst other factors, this is b'coz fuel, roads and air quality consumption is "perversely" subsidised in the country, abetted by a lack of application of basic technologies. You can find leads to why the state of affairs may be checked very soon, with the oil subsidy beginning to bleed the economy profusely and various other factors in combination, at www.mobilityxs.com/resour... . ii. As an IT-intensive system, MetroLITE will involve at a later stage - dynamic route allocation based on vehicle probe data; similar to air traffic control, there will be a road traffic control which will issue "paths" to every vehicle on a seamless corridor of arterial roads - like a dedicated system - while retaining lots of flexibility. Response #1. "at grade" metro rail is only a last option. Most likely we will not need it. Buses can do the job for most of the corridors. On the very high density corridors, where metro rail is necessary will be the only carrier. A refurbished, access-controlled Mumbai suburban will be a good example in case, if we can overcome our prejudices against "desi" innovations. :) #2. MetroLITE offers tremendous flexibility to adapt to multiple contexts. I would like to invite those who are interested to learn about and interact in greater detail for an offline meeting. We can organise on next Sat. 15th Sept. at a mutually convenient location. Regards, Vikash

Chandra Vikash
Head – Innovation & Communication

Can't Dismiss ROW Systems

tsubba - 6 Sep 2007 - 7:40am

First, I completely agree with the fuel subsidies point. The cost of using private transit is artificially low. And the cost of public transit is artificially high because of this. But it is difficult to ban this. Lots of small-scale commercial businesses meet their bottomlines only because of this. Second, I am sold on the idea of organized quasi public transit. You are preaching to the choir there. Have you considered bearing in IT on existing auto system, perhaps as a first step? Easy Auto is trying it, but it is too small a setup to carry it off to its fullest potential that you describe. That’s zonal connectivity. However, for interzonal connectivity, I am not convinced that the role of large capacity, right-of-way systems can be dismissed or let out to low capacity systems like buses and monos to carry. Primarily because as it is laid out BLR is a city with a lot of sprawl. I am not hostile to BG rail systems, after all it is also a rail based system only wider. We have explored that in quite some detail here at praja and at silkboard’s website. There is a solid chunk of network especially in the northern half of BLR that could act as force multiplier to metro. But it comes with its own set of limitations. Anyway you cut it, Majestic area comes out as a critical point in BLR transit, yet SBC is already thought of as being saturated, for example. While it carries zillions and is the city’s lifeline, Mumbai’s commuter rail system is controlled by WR & CR, I am not sure if they have been as responsive as they should have been to Mumbai’s needs. From their experience, it is not clear if that system is scalable. How much they have expanded over the years, how much they have innovated, how many new services they have added, is not clear. Mumbai itself has gone the metro route for expansion. BG system automatically brings in IR and the entire bureaucracy baggage of Rail Bhavan, Dilli. The principal costs are not technological but land costs, primarily because neither old areas nor the new ones are marked for public utilities. Land acquisition also increases with at grade rail systems, you need all the space for two tracks, median and shoulder buffers. Plus, all the problems of squatters, intrusions, accidents etc… it will be great if you can lay out a map or a graphic of how your network would look, it will help. Please don't mind my queries, since I cannot attend your symposium, I am trying to understand your system through queries.

Explore the potential of dynamic Road-based ROW systems...

cvikash - 6 Sep 2007 - 6:49pm

Once you explore the potential of a. localizing various trips, which can also be slow-moving and cross high-speed corridors through light road-over bridge infrastructure, trip chaining where required b. use light, low powered, eco-friendly vehicles (4-stroke LPG and electric auto-rickshaw and 12-seater, low floor, open mini-bus with detachable rain covers) as feeders to fill up an advanced, attractive, transaction-oriented carpooling and on-demand bus c. space the stops/pick-up points to 2kms. and optimise the number of entry and exit points on high-speed corridors and a combination of other factors - such as in-vehicle speed guidance to negotiate signals at green light and turn-by-turn route navigation, you can get speeds of 60 kmph. This means that you can carry 30K people on a 4-lane corridor. You can gradually phase out high footprint/seat vehicles by leaner, highly space efficient as well as energy-efficient (hybrid electric, PHEV, fuel cell etc.) vehicles. You also require fewer drivers which you can screen and incentivise using a Driver Proficiency Rating mechanism to get even better traffic flow conditions. Compared to speeds of 8-10kmph, present occupancy levels and vehicle-driver mix, this is more than 20X improvement. The moral of the story is that for a city like Bangalore as for most cities, a metro rail like monolithic transit systems sit like a 800-pound gorillas, where as the cities need more nimble footed and adaptible beauties. Regards, CV

Chandra Vikash
Head – Innovation & Communication

congestion

tsubba - 7 Sep 2007 - 8:25pm

I am now reading your paper, it will take me time to review it. meanwhile here is a question: as i understand you are trying to optimize on energy metrics, reuse (i got a feeling your are talking about creating a community shared transport system) and attempting to mimic the advantages of private vehicles through a "public" system. but what do you think of congestion itself? i think of all the variables in this problem, congestion is the most difficult to optimize. at the same time solutions to address it are also difficult to scale. which means some levels of capacity redundancy is unavoidable. i also have some qs on your planning systems but about it later. btw, what is a creative way to address congestion due to transit? :) (problem solving vs creating-a subtle and healthy distinction)

This is nothing but BRTS

Vasanth - 8 Sep 2007 - 10:28am

Anything on road will suffer from congestion - No doubt about it. BRTS on Poona has become an utter flop with private vehicles entering the BRTS track since the road became congested. These are the technologies pushed by Bus manufacturers like Volvo. Also, this will further increase the traffic jams. These buses needs to be treated like VIP cars. We have seen the ramifications of a VIP passing. Its all good in the paper and website posted to read. But, in a congested city and country like ours, Metro train / Monorail is the only solution. These confusions will further delay the metro work and divert people's thinking in different direction.

more than BRTS

tsubba - 8 Sep 2007 - 10:53am

Vasanth, While Vikash is the best person to defend his turf, i think it is more than BRTS. I donot see it supplanting metro but it can completely energize it. I see it as an organized quazi public transit system. Which is very important for a country of high population like ours. billion people with billion cars is going to take heavy toll on us. It is truly next gen in that this sits on certain basic infrastructure. Intelligent system, given a network, but for us right now the critical question is how to make the network itself smart. nxn lane roads with unplanned intersections are not smart. given that how much can you solve by intelligent distribution and control? One thing is clear Ford and Tata are not going to like Vikash's idea ;). Perhaps Bajaj & even TVS, would court him but the big guys are going to wince and twist. But Vikash's efforts are really commendable, in that not many academicians and not many funding agencies are interested in solving real day-to-day problems. They are all interested in abstract and hi-fi way too futuristic stuff. But he is trying.

Ford 2000: If you live in a city, you don't need to own a car.

cvikash - 8 Sep 2007 - 2:37pm

"Bill Ford also courted controversy on Wall Street by pulling his company out of the Global Climate Coalition and lobbying for higher petrol taxes. Last summer he initiated discussions between environmental groups and senior Ford managers. At the Greenpeace conference he went further and took up the environmental groups' challenge to follow BP's John Browne in accepting climate change as reality - heresy in corporate America." Sunday November 12, 2000 The Observer Link: http://observer.guardian.... One thing is clear Ford and Tata are not going to like Vikash's idea ;). Or will they? One, market logic would not bent over backwards to save the Tata Motors (unless they cheat, like they did by "bribing" the ministry of heavy industries to declare a 1500 cc diesel car as a "small car" and "continuing with diesel subsidy for private vehicles") or Ford (which went back on its chairman William Clay Ford's commitment in 2001, to sell more SUVs thru' a loophole which allowed 35% of americans to get a 100K USD subsidy by showing their SUV as business expense by declaring their home as office). Two, if they do innovate and adapt to the changes in ground realities, they can earn far more through the MetroLITE/MobilityXS model over the lifecycle of each vehicle, even with 80-90% less volumes by increasing utilisation, occupancy, fuel economy ( by moving in optimal fuel economy range of 40-80kmph) and upgrading to hybrid, plug-in-hybrid, fuel cell etc. - which would pay back faster in this model and make huge economic sense. Let me clarify - I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANY TECHNOLOGY - METRO RAIL OR OTHERWISE. BUT I SENSE A DEEPER DISORIENTATION AND MISPLACED PRIORITIES WITH THE CURRENT PROJECT IN BANGALORE. Regards, Vikash

Chandra Vikash
Head – Innovation & Communication

costs

tsubba - 8 Sep 2007 - 7:45pm

do tell us about why you think it is disoriented and has its priorities misplaced. cost is unavoidable, any way you cut it we are going to pay. what ever we pay for public transit, we will end up paying on vehicles, maintenance, petrol, safety, time etc in lieu of it. one way or the other we are going to pay. the question is to what do we pay for and why? do we gain more in quality of life if we buy in to one option?

Factor 10 : Call for symposium/ DIY

cvikash - 8 Sep 2007 - 9:06pm

I would be very happy to answer your questions. You would appreciate that this requires a face-to-face interaction to communicate. Else, if you revisit this thread, you can find the answer to your questions by yourself. On an apple-to-apple comparison, I am referring to at least 10X better benefit-cost proposition from where we are today. Regards, Vikash

Chandra Vikash
Head – Innovation & Communication

Confusing !!

Naveen - 18 Sep 2007 - 7:20pm

This is not clear --- First of all, the cost of 16,000 crores for 33km is incorrect - it's 6395 crores for 33km, which may scale up to around 9,000 crores for 41km with the extensions on N-S line & with cost escalations. Second of all, 'Metrolite' is almost exactly what is being planned by the authorities, with feeder bus services from all Metro stations. The real point is to reduce the no. of vehicles on roads, which the Metrolite system does not seem to address. Third, & last of all, Metro "at grade" ?? Authorities are struggling to find land to fit in Metro alignments & most of the tracks are to run either elevated or underground due to scarcity of land & high cost of acquisition - so where can the land come from in dense corridors to run it on grade ??

What is wrong with Bangalore Metro design ?

cvikash - 19 Sep 2007 - 5:35pm

Hi Naveen, 1. In case you have any doubts about the 16000 crore for 33 km. costs, ask any senior metro rail official about its actual cost. 2. The basic problem with Bangalore Metro Rail design, which is a "carbon copy" of the Delhi Metro Rail design is i. its failure to define a catchment area and ii. design for seamless integration of feeder services and metro rail system (with seamless ticketing and intermodal synchronization) - RIGHT AT THE INCEPTION. The real problem is that in spite of this "flaw" being brought to Mr. Sreedharan's notice, he has chosen to wilfully ignore it and has reluctantly agreed to some "patchwork" for the feeder system - like those lousy and rickety "Rural Transport Vehicles" called RTVs. Too many stations make Delhi Metro painfully and inefficiently slow with more than 1hr. 30 minutes door-to-door travel time for a 24 km. journey say from Dwarka to Barahkhamba Rd. The same route is navigable by a car in an average time of 45 minutes., in our study with the added benefit/flexibility of having your car for further trip. Most of the stations are already stuffed with cars parked like unherded cattle. In a recent trip at 3:30 pm, I could not find a parking at Central Secretariat station and was asked to look for space at Patel Chowk. The parking lot was muddy and flled with water. Even if I could squeeze in some space for my car, the attendant would not allow b'coz there were 7 cars behind me. He was adamant on some silly logic that if he removed the boulders preventing me to enter, every one else will enter. It wasted me a total of 20 minutes before he agreed. As a case study, 3:30 pm at this station makes it a lean time..just imagine the time wasted in peak times. The poor design has primarily lead to the chasm between potential ridership of 35 lacs. and actual of just over 5 lacs. This means that still so many cars are doing rounds which could be reduced by an appropriate design. This was also brought to the notice of Mr. OP Agarwal then Jt. Secretary and Officer on Special Duty - MRTS. He expressed shock and dismay initially but it was too hot for him to handle. Even when I reminded a senior Urban Development Ministry official in Delhi last week, he told me that I should talk to Sreedharan for what is wrong with Delhi Metro. The advantages of the MetroLITE design as it applies to high capacity systems like Metro Rail, wherever required or inevitable, for whatever reasons, in turn so are as follows: A. Plan for optimal spacing of stations (~ 2kms.) in conjunction with a seamless feeder system saves capital cost (principal and interest repayment burden) as well as significant benefits in operational efficiency - better trip frequency, lower electricity bill, faster travel times, better ridership, on-demand operation management B. Enhances commuter benefits and economic viability of the proposed Bangalore Metro model. 3. I suggested Metro "at grade" only as a last resort. If you take a systemic approach, the problem can be entirely solved by MetroLITE using high occupancy cars and buses. Once we remove our blinkers or juvenile fantasies for swanky toycars - (for Mr. Sreedharan's bloated ego, Delhi Metro is the swankiest toy car of all..Can you beat it ? which is no different from Ratan Tata's fantasies of the 1 lakh car - the irony is both are highly energy inefficient, in their present form) and take basic measures to "localise" trips related to daily activities by a combination of incentives or regulation. This also implies that no private cars should be allowed on these routes with remaining lanes dedicated for essential goods movement and Bicycle/Pedestrian Lanes, as applicable. Regards, Vikash

Chandra Vikash
Head – Innovation & Communication

Congestion

rrbatra - 25 Sep 2007 - 2:33am

I agree with tarlesubba. Congestion is the most difficult part. Flyovers and subways are not the solutions because even they get clogged. Anyone has a solution for congestion?

Vikash is writing with his experience

Vasanth - 25 Sep 2007 - 7:48am

Vikash has travelled extensively on Delhi Metro and writing his experience. We all are under the illusion that once Metro is here, all the problems are solved and writing that. As mentioned by Vikash, stations should be atleast 2kms apart. There should be good feeder service. Buses will be as usual crowded, energy efficient cars and vans should be ideal giving door to door service. Tata's 8 seater auto (modified ace) and Omni 8 seater are all good candidates for this. This kind of shared autos, basically normal autos are running in many parts of the city and serving the purpose cheaply. One example is Kodigehalli and Sahakar Nagar. Here, internally people have to walk lot of distance after getting down from the city Bus. Taking a normal auto costs minimum of 12 rupees. Ranging from 3 rupees to 5 rupees, shared auto will drop wherever we want within Kodigehalli. Similarly in Mysore, around Udayagiri, lot of shared autos run to Mysore Suburban bus stand. These are very cheap means of transport and acts as a very good transport solution - Tuned properly will make very good feeder service. BMTC should also workout by running smaller buses like Swaraj Mazda / Tempo Traveller touring around almost all the part of the nearby locality surroundingg the Metro/Mono Station. Here BMTC's role is very important. It is the feeder service which can make Metro Successful / Unsuccessful.

Feeder service works both ways

silkboard - 25 Sep 2007 - 8:43am

Right Vasanth. And a good feeder service has to work both ways. One is to help you get to a Bus hub or a Metro station. the other is to have a minibus/auto/van etc ready asa soon as you alight from a bus or Train at local Metro/bus station. This calls for coordination in schedules, information systems that tell you about schedules and expected wait times. Not that Metro (BMRC) and BMTC aren't thinking about these, they have smart guys who know these things. But I wouldn't bank on these govt bodies to do a good job of coordinating and planning these. Government bodies have this tendency of blaming other govt bodies when things don't work smooth (BMTC will blame traffic police and roads for not keeping schedules). The first step - we need a BMRTA like thing, and need it *NOW*, a regulatory and monitoring body sitting on top of all local transport bodies. The second step - transparency in the way large projects get planned and funded. BRTS, Metro or Mono or space shuttles - we don't care. Just tell us why are thinking what you are thinking thats all.

redundancy

tsubba - 25 Sep 2007 - 8:50am

i was wondering what vikash was talking about so did some plotting. voronoi map on the metro map.

Around each station(dot) is a "cell" and similarly each cell has one dot inside it. Each cell marks all points that are closet to its dot. if people use the closet station to where ever they are then each cell represents the geographic catchment of a station. obviously you have to consider roads, but let us go with this simple model for now. next obviously only people living in a certain radius around the station will use that station, so i drew one circle around each station. so let us see how that looks. i cannot scale the circles accurately, but have chosen a size so that the catchment area is appears visually reasonable. (too lazy to plot stations on GE etc...)

the radius map shows that the stations have a lot of redundancy and even overlap simple geographic catchment model. i would have assumed that each station would only overlap with the catchment of its immediate neighbour stations. but some stations even have multiple redundancies. what are the implications of this?

phatphati

tsubba - 25 Sep 2007 - 9:32am

pune had these 6 seater autos, very very convenient. delhi used to have phati phatis multi seater bike based rickshaw. i think BMRTA should take the autorajas along. its the only logical way to solve this problem. i had written about Bangalore Auto Authority, nobody responded. :(

radius - one correction

silkboard - 25 Sep 2007 - 9:39am

If you assume that each station is equal in terms of amount of parking and standing space it offers, then you have to take population density into account as well when drawing a radius around each of them. Have they (Metro planners) done a bit of that? More stations close-by in areas with more population? Back to your point, the implication of overlapping "catchment areas" would be cost. May be we can do with fewer and larger (in terms of space for parking or feeder services) stations, save on some sabse-bada-rupaiya.

This is how metros begin with

bangalorean - 25 Sep 2007 - 9:41am

I have travelled extensively in Europe, US and South Korea (Which has one of the best public transport in the world). This is how a metro is planned. What we are seeing is just 1st Phase of Metro only 2 lines. If bangalore gets couple of more lines (Hopefully by 2020), then you will see that, you can go from anywhere to anywhere in bangalore without walking much. Normally every city has close to 5 to 6 lines. Bangalore has just 2 lines to start with. So guys there is a long way to go 2020 and beyond, so hold you breath and analysis until then. Cheers!!!!!

density...

tsubba - 25 Sep 2007 - 9:56am

SB... you are right , i too thought of density, but density map of BLR is fairly contiguous. check CDP Vol 1 page 31. ditto traffic density map, there are natural big streams. bangalorean... :) right right, habitual defects. just seeing how it will pan out. i posted a test iternary somewhere. Yeshwantpura->MG Road, Comm Street, to Magrath - Yeshwantpura. oh i remembered narrow lanes thread.

unanswered questions...density, radius, redundancy etc.

cvikash - 25 Sep 2007 - 3:53pm

Hi Tarle S, Vasanth, bangalorean, Congratulations ! :) You are getting closer to getting the transit jigsaw right.(naveen is still off-track or is it derailed ;) I can assure you that I have the answers, and very practical solutions deploying a cross section of technologies, no rocket science, yet the integrative complexity is very high. For some reasons, I cannot share it online. I can offer some clues though : Work out the lifecycle cost of "extra" stations w/o a seamless feeder system in place - capital cost, impact on travel time, impact on turnaround time of rolling stock, particularly for peak hour handling, energy costs, maintenance cost, security, lighting air-conditioning etc. Another piece of the puzzle is that even in densest station area : Would throughput be higher if petrol/diesel cars (often solo-occupied) are allowed or a 12/15-seater electric/LPG 4-stroke open-minibus is allowed in a loop mode, where for most times it is not required to be parked; along with ultra efficient (space and energy-wise) modes such as walking, bicycle, electric scootrs (which are also near zero emission and low on noise) for those who are comfortable riding 2-wheelers. Regards, Vikash

Chandra Vikash
Head – Innovation & Communication

rapid transport system

thampan - 25 Sep 2007 - 5:04pm

1) a train station should be in walkable distance for me to use only the train. 2) a bus station should be in walkable distance for me to use only the bus 3) an auto stand should be in walkable distance for me to use the auto. and any mode should be affordable and comfortable. What we need is 1) Round the clock (4 AM - 12:00 AM) transport system with high frequency 2) an effective network of rails (metro/mono/whatever) 3) an effective network of buses/trams which takes me to the nearest train station a) radial network of rails b) circular network of rails which connect points on the radial network ( at say ORR) c) a circular network of rails in the CBD (ex : the loop in chicago) d) a network of buses which run for short distances connecting the areas in between to the train stations. ( every bus need not end at majestic) e) abundant parking facilities at city boundaries. ( so that people leave their cars and come to the city in the trains) f) a network of rails to the next villages so that they become mini bangalores ( i forgot the term which tarle uses for these :). please fill it up for me, tarle) g) all transport from outside the city should end at city periphery. ---( see the private volvo buses which run from majestic to tamilnadu/kerala, they are mostly empty from majestic till madiwala. So why should they go into the city at all. ) --- There should be major bus terminuses at all four ( six/eight ?) corners of the city. All long distance buses should end there. People should have reliable city transport which will take you to these terminus. --- Same thing applies for railway stations as well. Develop KR puram, yashwant pur stations, yelahanka, ( may be more stations are there ..) and end major out of city trains there. -- The key is decentralization. Essentially i should be tempted to take my car out only to go to nandi hills and not inside bangalore. Another interesting aspect is that the parking costs are too high in ( within CBD) many of the cities world wide that people take mass transport just to avoid parking cost. if there is a volvo bus at a frequency of 15 minutes from say bannerghata road to commercial street and vice versa, i will never take my car to go to commercial street from bannerghata road. Another dire necessity is parking space where i can leave my personal vehicle and hop on to a public transport system. For example : people coming from ITPL side to CBD. There are two main roads which lead out of ITPL. if there is a huge parking facility available at say marathahalli junction/KR puram junction and buses/trains which arrive/depart at this spot at a frequency of 15 minutes, i am sure most would leave their cars and hop on to the public transport system. What we need is such kind of infrastructure. Vikas, What you seem to be saying is that you have some idea, which will have multiple modes of transport. People will be able to hop from one to another and move quickly around. And the mode of transport is decided on what is the most economical/environment friendly/convenient method to go from X to Y. You have sound economic/factual reasons which support your idea. If this is a business idea (patentable/having commercial value) , then I feel this is not the right forum. if this is a city improvement idea which people of Praja can take up, please share details in this space. Lot of people may read it and some may usurp it but this is an idea which you want to share right ?

open source

cvikash - 25 Sep 2007 - 5:18pm

The underlying concepts of MetroLITE come from the MobilityXS model(www.mobilityxs.com/mobili...) , which is open source design for any city anywhere in the world. I only expressed my difficulty in relating some of the finer points through an online forum. A consortium will launch a pilot project in Bangalore in coming months..as a quasi-commercial PPP venture, which is necessary to get it practically implemented. This is essentially a city improvement idea and open to everyone. Regards, Vikash

Chandra Vikash
Head – Innovation & Communication

car parking

silkboard - 25 Sep 2007 - 7:03pm

If you think of it, a car parked for 8 hours (at our offices, or say at a bus stop or train station) is a colossal waste of two resources. One, the car itself, second, the parking space it takes. Thampan - very good points about Rapid Transit system. Thats the sort of thing Bangalore needs. And Bangalore city planners seem to think we will get there via Metro and the upcoming TTMC/Volvo plans of BMTC.

grid is important

tsubba - 25 Sep 2007 - 10:34pm

I think blr's pubtrans network needs an artery system of the type naveen and thampan are proposing- ROW network (ROWN). The basic problem is sprawl and blr's road arteries are not and cannot ever be strong enough to carry the burden of road based system. they have to be supplemented by that of ROWN. for example consider the problem of airport connectivity. no form of road based system can give meaningful connectivity to it. only a ROWN that has a depth and reach within various blr regions can meaningfully address BIAL connectivity problem. network and airport is just a preview, in the next few years NoBa will explode. BIAL is not the only place which has the "how-to-get-there"(HTGT) problem. EC, ITPL, Peenya, SBC etc all have their own HTGT problem. I took Naveen's network and roughly plotted some critical nodes - it needs work, but even then a meaningfull cell map is beginning to emerge. This is in contrast to the skewed cells that the two lines produce. (see above)

The cell is ofcourse where the action is. and drawing these maps, i am beginning to appreciate the logic behind 2kms apart stations. the cells have to large enough to make them meaningful, yet small enough to develop their own arteries that will create more traffic. notice how cell boundaries are mostly intersecting n's network lines rather than running parallel to them. metro lines will attract growth and growth needs to attract metro lines. how do you solve HTGT on BNG rd - KNK Rd? SB great aha comment. never thought about it like that. can make a great use pubtrans ad theme.

my attempt

thampan - 26 Sep 2007 - 11:49am

I have tried to capture what i think bangalore should attempt at. The alignments are not exact . I just drew lines on the map, these may not be really practical. I have depicted the current bangalore boundary ? with a green line. Please find the link to the google map below. http://maps.google.com/ma... ideally i should have at rail station within a km from my current point. In the above map, it is only possible in the central area. as the cost of rails is high, may be we should have buses supplementing the rails as we move farther from the center.

Transport-Land Use Linkages

cvikash - 26 Sep 2007 - 11:56am

TarleS: The question is not whether we need ROWN, or not. With a cross-section of IT, telecom, RFID, Satellite Navigation, display technologies, It is possible to build a primarily Road-based ROWN (up to 95%) supplemented by Rail-based ROWN for the very high density corridors, if required (less than 5%) and complemented by a seamless feeder network using ultra-light vehicles at optimal speeds(allows recycled material to be used for the roads for feeder and neighborhood networks), which are also very high energy and space-efficient, very low on noise and pollution to maintain the sanctity of the "home zones". This is the future of transportation systems which will further evolve on the same logic as regional grids ..very much like the power grids. On my part, before I sound over the top, I must share that I have been trying with some of the leading IT cos. - TCS, Infy, Wipro, Mastek - to invest into the prototype development, ceaselessly for the past 5 years. They did support in various ways - TCS (funded over 2 years of research during which I also presented a paper on MobilityXS at the World Congress for ITS in Japan, 2004 ( the only paper from India in 3-4 years) and Mastek employed me (where I worked on the London Congestion Charging project ++); Narayan Murthy offered moral support and referred to his DCG head - one Dr. Subbu and in turn to the head of Transport-sonunding practice- who was grossly incompetent for the job. The big cos. have been too "greedy" with the low-hanging fruits and only pay lip-service to product development and that too something based on MobilityXS. I seem to be getting lucky with a group of companies now. You should see the results in a few months time. It will be great to talk to some of the people in the group to explore if you would like to join in. Regards, Vikash

Chandra Vikash
Head – Innovation & Communication

rfid

tsubba - 27 Sep 2007 - 6:18pm

RFID revolution? The ministry of heavy industries is considering a proposal to make it mandatory to fit RFID enabled devices in the cars manufactured in India. It will be the responsibility of the car manufacturers to ensure that all new cars have these radio-frequency identification tags. It is believed that RFID tags would help in traffic management as traffic violations by motorists could be tracked and all violations identified. Also, motorists would get charged automatically as soon as they enter a toll area.

SkyBus -- Should not we attempt to test it.

abhilash - 12 Feb 2009 - 11:18am

Dear Bangaloreans,

I do agree that Metro rail, we are expecting too much, one imminent short fall of METRO is the last mile connectivity. As a feeder to METRO should not we also think about SKYBUS, a pioneering technology from Konkan Railways.

I have read about all the facts prepared by KRL,my INDIAN pride grows, also SKYBUS is a strong case for technological, commercial feasibility, and of course it is sustainable as well. I still wonder why people are not interested in SKY BUS technology, at least I could see no demerits in the system.

I strong suggest, we need to test SKYBUS as a feeder to METRO where ever its possible.

Please note among all the MRTS SKYBUS can be constructed faster.

Best Regards Abhilash.

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SkyBus -- Should not we attempt to test it.

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