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Mr. Praveen Sood, The unwritten stops at start and end of flyovers - why? - Specially the Domlur flyover

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TrafficTraffic jams

I have taken 2 snaps below - one at the Domlur flyover and another of Jayadeva Flyover. These photos clearly show why there are jams before and after the flyover. 

This is at the start of Domlur Flyover at the EGL side. Everyday I see people standing there and all the autos, buses, cabs stand there and get people boarded, thus make the traffic jam behind them. Its everyday's game over here. There is no cop here to make them no stop here.

 

This is at the end of the Jayadeva Flyover at the end, at BTM side. I was coming from the Dairy Circle and took the left below the Jayadeva Flyover towards the BTM and at the end of the flyover, I took this photograph. You can see the bus standing just there, whereas the bus-stop is some more distance ahead. All the buses, cabs, autos etc stop here itself and even people stand there on almost 2 left lanes full.

These 2 scenarios are just the examples, all the old and new flyovers in Bangalore are suffering with the same disease, and nobody is doing anything about it.

 

Comments

Bheema.Upadhyaya's picture

Multiple causes

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 Even I was wondering why this happens. Here is my thought on this. 

Primary Reason: Transiting passengers from one route to another route have difficulty in walking from one stop to another stop for change-over. Take SilkBoard junction fly-over for example. If I am coming from Hosur Road and want to goto BTM Layout.

The true bus stops are at Rupena Agrahara and Madiwala Police Station. So transit stop is in front of SilkBoard Office. Walking distance is at least 0.4km from Madiwala and 0.5km from Rupena Agrahara. So people will wait at beginning of flyovers for a brief stop. BMTC drivers too understand this issue, hence show courtesy. If they are strict and do not open doors people have no choice but to walk in such dusty conditions loosing their energy and time and missing their connecting bus too. Poor road conditions,polluted air, luggage, hurry and laziness makes people to avoid walking from one stop to another. And make them to find shortcuts such as stopping near flyovers, road humps(Some buses stop at road humps - as they have to slow down) etc.

Its almost same case with other flyovers too, I guess. So solution lies in attending all of above :)

Related issue: Have you seen people occupying bus-bay at bus stops? Why???

 

 

" My mantra to public bodies=> Enable->Educate->Enforce. Where does  DDC  fit?"
dvsquare's picture

Agree, but awareness or enforcement is needed and then

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I agree with you Bheema, these are the reasons, but those can be resolved too, but till they are resolved, we cannot live with making those flyovers reasons for jams (opposite the reason they are built for), and putting life of those commuters in danger.

Everyday at the domlur flyover, I don't have to take the flyover, I have to go down the flyover and take the U-Turn and I face hell lot of difficulty while driving near the flyover, because of various reasons- like (a) Jam (b) Buses or cabs unexpectedly stopping or overtaking at those places (c) People standing there, their life in danger (d) suddenly people coming out of buses/cabs and u just apply sudden brakes as u see them in front of you etc etc...

Yes, also this is not the case with flyovers only, also at all the junctions, traffic signals, all the BMTC buses just stop as soon as the signal is over, blocking the whole intersection behind them. Not only they are at fault, commuters are also standing at those points only. But this has to be solved by very simple ways - BMTC drivers enforced not to stop just at those junctions instead they should stop at the bus-stops built on same road a few meters ahead. Same should be enforced to commuters, and a traffic cop can do that. I have seen cops doing the same on the outer ring road near marathahalli many times.

 

ss87's picture

This conecpt has never been

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This conecpt has never been understood still- Flyover is meant for free flow but these buses and others stopping are quite a hinderance-it is difficult for people standing as well as for vehicles moving about.

The distance between the Flyover and bus stops must be like the ones at Richmond circle, Mekhri cirlce etc-and the worst is silk board flyover where not just BMTC even KSRTc, TNSTC, PVt buses move to the left corner and stop just after the flyover creating a huge mess.

Previously buses after Rupena agrahara stopped only aafter the flyover-nowadays many of them stop before climbing the flyover too-and Banashankari bound buses stop in the immediate side road corner.

We seriously require a person to preven people from standing there as well as buses also-and also we need to advice BMTC on placement of stops too-previously there was no stop near the Marenhalli signal at j.p.nagar and people just waited and some buses only opened the doors-now a bus shelter has been constructed at that spot-worse barely 200mts away is another stop where also buses stop.

We had some staffs managing the places when the corporation bus bay was opened on mission road-now they have dissappeared-same case at Richmond circle(atleast stop is few meters away in these places)-hope they can make a comeback and restore some stops.

also there is another thing at Jayadeva Flyover-at the time of return the vehicles cannot use the flyover-and there is an extra stop n return for the buses by name Jayadeva again just after the narrow road at the signal-thats one more horrible location-can be pushed a few meters apart and megred with East End stop such that both the stops are together and the signal there is spared-it is tough for toutes going to Jayanagar there as they have to stop and then change to the extreme right lane and turn

sanjayv's picture

Bheema has it right

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 I have been using the bus this week for my commute.  I have to change buses at Silkboard. From a commuter /pedestrians perspective, that stop at the beginning of the flyover is invaluable.  The walk is dusty, surface uneven, traffic indisciplined.  I am afraid that the complaint on this thread has more to do with poor design, insufficient thought to pedestrians and to the design of major bus interchange points

 

Transmogrifier's picture

Flying into mayhem

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...the complaint on this thread has more to do with poor design, insufficient thought to pedestrians and to the design of major bus interchange points.

Exactly. Add to all of that (in all but the example of Silkboard flyover) the number of overlapping BMTC routes alone (in the absence of route normalization) and the result is mayhem.

The distance between the Flyover and bus stops must be like the ones at Richmond circle, Mekhri cirlce etc...

In both these cases, bus stop location(s) have remained relatively unchanged before and after flyover construction (unlike Silkboard flyover). Providence and not forethought, is what helped here. Even with all that distance, Richmond circle backs up quite a bit, given the right mix of conditions.

Some flyovers (Silkboard, Dairy Circle) might benefit from an earlier discussion about a similar problem at BDA jn on Chowdiah Rd (diagram from same thread).

Everyday at the domlur flyover...I face hell lot of difficulty while driving near the flyover...

Excellent inputs to consider for the proposed BPS plan for Old Airport Road. Do join the team :)

----

TM

dvsquare's picture

One cannot just blame govt and infrastructure,

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In my opinion, we can't just blame the govt and infrastructure only. But the major point here was that, till infrastruture is not being done, are you going to stop the buses anywhere you want, and make people jump out of buses just in front of another vehicle coming in, causing everyon'e life in danger.

I can very well understand and agree that its very problematic for the pedestrians to walk from one stop to other in the dusty environmen where all the pavements have been occupied by vendors etc and many other problems, but that's not the end of the story.

Let me give a few instances, where BBMP have developed really good bus stops with shelters and at some places, there are even bus-bays or if not a proper bus-bay then atleast a half lane kind of space apart from the normal on-going road. But still buses doesn't stop on the bus-bay or the leftmost lane, they always go on the righter lanes, and even people are also to be blamed for the same, as they always keep occupying the bus-bay or leftmost lane.

So, I would say, its all one-depend-on-the-other kind of the problem, places where we have infrastructure, bus-drivers and commuters doesn't respect that, and places where we need, there is no infra.

 

dvsquare's picture

Pic-Bus stopping before the designated stop & middle of the road

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The above one is again taken at the same Domlur Flyover, this is again at the EGL (inner ring road) side. Everyday I go under the flyover, take a U-Turn, and then come back to the EGL campus. After takign the U-Turn, when I was reaching near the end-of-flyover, this was the scene, a bus stopped just here, as seen the photo, I don't see any reason for buses to stop here for anyone's convenience apart from people standing here for buses. You can clearly see the SignBoard mentioning that "Bus Stop Shifted", still the buses are stopping, and causing other people behind them to wait until they move on.

Also, if you see in the picture, they have left almost a 1-lane space in their left and stopped in the middle of the road, this again causing the jam to happen. This is the most ridiculous practice by the BMTC driver. I don't see any excuse or reason going on in favour of this drivers, they should and they have to stop at the designated bus-stops and leftmost possible space, not in the middle of the road.

I hope, Mr. Sood, look at these pictures, and will direct their officials and traffic cops to force all these drivers to stop properly.

Deepak

dvsquare's picture

It seems that action is being taken

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First of all thanks Mr. Sood for reading the report and taking the action or if not, then also thanks for taking the action.

Today, at the same path, I saw on both the sides of flyover at the EGL end of the domlur flyover, I see cops standing and trying to make buses not stop at the un-designated stop, it was not seen very efficient, but I was very happy to see something happening at first place.

Lets see how it goes evolve over the days and remain consistent. Hope for positive.

Deepak

silkboard's picture

good job dv2

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good job dvsquare, for writing a clear post describing the problem, and Transmog for pitching in with descriptive solution talk. Way to go!

Anithasunil's picture

Not the first time

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It is not the first time that they introduce cops at the beginning of the flyover. I have seen cops at the EGL end of the flyover abt two years back. They are sometimes there, sometimes not there. Maybe they get assigned to some other point, once the problem calms down! And then, the public and the BMTC bus drivers get back to their old habit. 

What we need is a more permenant solution for this!

This phenomenon is seen in a lot of places. There are a few cops in front of the Krpuram railwaystation, making sure that the buses stop only at the designated stops (and not right in front  of the railway station). Drivers forcefully shut the doors right after the bus stop, when they see the cops. But, if they dont see the cops, they keep opening the door for anybody who waves their hand.

Naveen's picture

Indiscipline by all

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Generally, the objective must always be to ensure convenience of access for passengers to public transport rather than movement of traffic on the roads, even if it means some waiting time for traffic. The purpose of a flyover is to reduce or minimize overall time spent on the road by doing away with traffic conflicts at junctions & increase throughputs /capacities - not eliminating waiting time altogether, though where possible, it is preferable to allow free, uninterrupted flows.

TM has suggested bypasses for buses that allow buses to halt midway between flyovers or underpasses on the surface, which I believe is a good solution wherever possible, but such cannot be arranged everywhere due to lack of sufficient space to allow bus lanes in addition to turn lanes for other traffic.

In cases where bus stops are forcibly positioned away from convenient points for passengers by traffic cops, they will return back again soon to these points ones the cops disappear simply because the more convenient option for passengers is to have the halt close to the foot of a flyover in the absense of features that allow buses to bypass the flyover.

The problem really is one of indicipline by all - passengers waiting on the road rather than on sidewalks, buses stopping on the 2nd lane as a result to help quicker entry /exit, & autos /taxis bunching up around the same place because of the large presence of prospective clients.

I think the traffic cops must try a different approach, always bearing in mind that bus halts must necessarily be at most convenient points from passengers perspective & never be based on convenience for movement of other traffic or ease of traffic regulation.

If they can ensure passengers do not wait outside bus stops first, it might have a cascading effect & the clutter could reduce by leaving enough space for buses to halt on the 1st lane at left. Discipling autos & taxis can be dealt with better too by ensuring they line up single file some distance away from the bus halts.

Trying to move bus stops well away from flyovers might never work.

dvsquare's picture

It was just for one or 2 days, its again the same mess

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Its again the same mess at the ends of flyover again. People risking their lives by standing on the start of the flyover and waiting for the buses/cabs/autos etc.

More danger for the people who are getting down from the buses at those points and start running towards the leftmost side of the road, and high possibility that another vehicle can just run over them.

Enforcement is the only option in my opinion, and gradually people will be habitual of standing at the designated bus stops. And I don't think here, other excuses from commuters apply as we have talked above, there are 2 bus stops before the flyover on the EGL side, but people don't go there and stay here at start of the flyover. 

dvsquare's picture

No change at all, that has become another bus-stop now

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There is not at all any change, its going worsen day by day.

There are already 2 bus-stops, one near Pizza hut, and then another just a few meters before the flyover. But still buses stop at this start of the flyover, they not only jam the roads and cause problems from the vehicles coming behind them, but also make people's life in danger, by let them get down and cross the road suddenly. To add to the proper scenario of the bus-stop, autos started standing there as well which even blocks the bus-way also.

This is going too much, how much, whatever, in anyway, anybody wants to defend the purpose, I see it has become a regular habbit of the bus-drivers and this has become one bust-stop.

Mr. Sood, You have to send your cops right here and enforce on the people that don't stand there, and make sure that BMTC buses don't stand there,

Dear Praja people, can anyone guide me here how to bring this irregularity both by dirvers and passengers to the notice of traffic police dept and give a try to fix it.

I hope, Mr. Sood is reading this and take action (As he always tells us in meetings that he keeps reading Praja blogpost and sometimes anonymously comment also).

Thanks in advance to Mr. Sood.

Deepak

dvsquare's picture

Today morning, I saw 2-3 cops

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Today morning, I saw 2-3 cops at the start of the flyover on the EGL side, having a challan-book in their hand, similarly at the same EGL end, on the other side of the road, I have seen another cop with another challan book in his hand. I don't know, what they were doing there, specially the 2-3 cops as I said initially.

I saw buses and stopping at the same place still, and even autos standing there to take the passengers, and not sure what these policement are doing. I am not sure whom are they trying to catch as what kind of offences. In my opinion, as a first level of enforcement, cops should force the vechicles to not-to-do what is supposed not be done, and warn them. Then stil after a few days of this practice, they should start penalizing, but I saw nothing happening, neither force nor penalize.

Still keepin my hope, that Mr. Sood will still resolve this problem in coming days, not only at this place but any other similar place in Bangalore.

Deepak

shashi kumar y's picture

rightly said naveen.. Mr.Sood Plz read the final part

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Sir, you are right.

If you look in general around bangalore, the distance between the stops is greater than 500 meters and this makes the public or passengers to look for short cut. Don't term it as laziness of public. The public too has certain kind of patenice to walk.

Example: dvsquare complaint. The actual stop is around more than 500 meters from the intersection of the Old airport rd and inner ring road.

Jayadeva flyover. the distance b/w actual stops goplan mall stop to eastend stop(banshankri side) is more than 800 meters.
              The distance BTM(reliance fresh) to Mico layout(shoppers stop) stop is almost 800 meters or more.

So whom to blame really that is who is actual culprit????

1st- Blame the BMTC for not providing proper cross connecting routes so as to aviod public from interchanging at major junctions. In the above mentioned examples, you have only the straight routes but not the criss cross routes.  

2nd- Blame the cops and the vehciles that have occupied the bus stops.

3rd- the cops must ensure that they give importance to the bus passengers and buses while managing the traffic. It's high time since day by day the traffic is increasing.

@Dvsquare. I will provide you with photos wherein all the educated(techie) car users occupy the bus stop as parking space. Don't you want to blame them. The car users(personal) not only occupy bus stops but also park where ever they wish be it no parking zone or infront of anyone's residence gate.

The personal car users need all types comfort and preferance they wish.

Consider the following places.
1) Delmia Signal:  The cop posted here gives importance to the traffic coming from underpass side rather any other side. NOTE: in this direction there isn't a single BMTC plying. The cop doesn't wish to clear the traffic coming from the Bannergatta side from where BMTC ply. So buses are made to wait and hence which irritates the passengers. The end result is that the passengers switch to personal transport.

2)Intersection of JP Nagar 9th Cross and 8th main: The same here as above. The cop clears the full traffic on 9th cross which only conisst of other modes. No Bmtc. But the cop is least bothered to give green hand signal for the traffic coming from delmia junction consisting of BMTC buses.

The junction one near the BTM bus stand (AXA) is the worst managed by the traffic cops. The cops posted here always give preferance to the 29th main rd and the 31st main road trafffic which doesn't consit of BMTC. Even if 5 cars pile up, the cop stops the main road traffic and allows those 5 cars.
Not only this, these cops don't synchronize with the silkboard signal to the main road. 

Like this there are many intersections in bangalore where the cops give importance for the personal transport mode rather Public transport mode.

But, Mr.Sood wants the public to use public transport so as to reduce traffic. If this the way the cops managae the traffic, where is the question of public shifting to public trasport.

dvsquare's picture

The domlur flyover, the distance is approx 200 mtr

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And here, I don't want to blame BMTC for not giving the proper stops, here the problem purely lies with the passengers, BMTC drivers, and cops who can' enforce the rules for stopping at designated and not stopping at other points except a few other exceptions.

And, yes, I would blame anyone standing at the bus-stops blocking bus's way to stand leftmost on the bus-stops, but mainly its the BMTC drivers who are reluctant to go leftmost even if its empty and the passengers who takes up the leftmost lane to stand instead of sheltered bus-stops. Lately, I am seeing autos blocking the ways. And yes, if you see private vehicles blocking on the stops, yes they are culprits too. But in my opinion, if we think practically, putting lesser blame on one or more on another is not the soultion, The solution lies with traffic cops, BMTC drivers and public boarding the buses. Traffic cops should keep enforcing the public not to come out of the shelters (bus stops) and force BMTC drivers to be on the leftmost lane when they approach bus-stops. At the same time, they should force any other vehicle standing at the bus-stops to run away.

And on the top of all, the main thing comes is AWARENESS, I don't why none of the BMTC, BMMP or Bangalore Traffic Police want to put stress on. Try advertising on all the bus-stops about not standing at the road etc, involve BMTC drivers in training that what they should do and what they shouldn't, and a few exceptions.

Train them to give priority to all the BMTC buses when there are huge traffic jams in a proper way, there by giving a good indication to the public that Public Transportation in Bangalore is preferred by govt and authorities etc etc. It depends on how authorities want to portray all these good things, I mean, cops standing on the jammed instersections can make the way for public transport vehicles in a way which don't irritate the private vehicles but give them a sense of information that Public Transport wil be given priority on the public roads. Is that a big thing to do? I mean, US there are carpool lanes right, do people complain, do they get irritated, no right, similarly, the thing is that its has to be enforced in good manner.

Also, I want to point out another thing is that Inefficiency in the current rules, plans or laws doesn't give anyone any excuse not to follow it. We want to demand for a lot of skywalks or zebra crossings etc, but do we actually follow the zebra crossing when we have to cross the roads whatever there are already, do we actually follow the red-green signals installed for pedestrians at the junctions installed, then why do we blame the motorists for not stopping when we came on their way, I mean, Pedestrians can have the right of way, but that doesn't mean that they can cross the road at any point of time they wish without respecting other's right of way. This is the common problem all across India not only bangalore. Wherever there are facilties or planned infrastructure, we don't respect that and still demand for more.

I would still say, AWARENESS is still another weapon/tool to put lawness into citizens, atleast to a some extent, and then comes the enforcement and then penalization to make it almost done.

Deepak

ashwin's picture

200 MTRs is trivial in the comfort of a car

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Returning to the original topic of this thread: As folks have already pointed out, the situation exists because when we build infrastructure, we prioritize the convenience of the car user over pedestrians and bus passenger.

Many flyovers/underpasses exist at the intersection of two major corridors. They are, by definition, major interchange points for bus commuters. To take just the example of Domlur flyover, there are dozens of Bus Routes that go down 100 feet road and onto inner ring road. Similarly, there are dozens of bus routes going along Airport road. But there is practically none that start on Airport road and goes on to inner Ring Road and vice versa.

To be precise, there is exactly one bus route that come down Airport Road (from Command Hospital side) and turns right onto Inner Ring Road - BIAS 7A, with a frequency of one in one hour.

In the pre-flyover situation, it must have been trivial to change buses at this intersection. Now, if you were to use designated bus stops, then the changeover involves a walk of about a kilometer. No one obviously thought that that was something to be factored in during the planning of the elaborate, cloverleaf flyover.

You may say the solution is for BMTC to operate more routes that start on airport road and go onto IRR. That would help, but the frequency of such a route would be far lower and the wait time longer. It is simply more efficient for both the BMTC and commuters to have an efficient interchange at the point of intersection of these two major roads.

The original evil is the flyover that was built here that eliminated this simple interchange. Could an interchange infrastructure have been worked into the design of the flyover !? I think it could have, but I would bet a 100 bucks that no one spent even 5 minutes contemplating this possibility. I don't think it would have even occurred to the (un)concerned people.

Nor are they doing it for any of the dozens of new grade separators coming up all over the city. The politicians who hanker after such projects, the bureaucrats who supervise it and the designers/contractors who design/build them all understand the 'pain' of the private car owner, because that is the category they fall in. 

 

murali772's picture

car culture

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Well said, Ashwin. Your post clearly brings out the stupidity of building fly-overs, more specifically within the city centres.

At the time of the public hearing before the commencement of the HAL airport road fly-over project (held largely because of the behind the scene activism by a bureaucrat, whose house was in the vicinity - the person has since sold the property to a commercial venture, and moved out), when I raised the matter of the facilitation for the movement of pedestrians and cyclists, strangely, the other RWA members who were present, let out a collective guffaw, thinking I was just deliberately trivialising the issue. Sensing the mood of the lagely car-user group, the then BDA Commissioner, Mr Jeykar Jerome, who was presiding over the meet, brusquely responded with 'pedestrians and cyclists are not allowed on the fly-over'.

He was in fact complimented by the group on the first of the kind totally signal free fly-over.

Unfortunately, the same mind-set continues even today amongst the majority of the RWA lot, even though the writing is becoming more and more clear on the walls that they will have to give up their cars sooner than later.

Well, I myself am dependent on my car, largely, today. But, I realise it's not a sustainable life-style with every one aspiring to follow suit, and I am prepared to give it up. But, for that, first, you have to have dependable public transport. And, that's another story, which may be checked out here.
 

Muralidhar Rao
dvsquare's picture

Correctly said about pedestrians but till the solution, what ?

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I totally agree with what Ashwin and Murali Sir told about total negligence of the pedestrians while building the flyover. But what is the solution? How is the steps towards the solution, and while arriving and implementing the solution, we cannot just do the wrongs giving excuses, right? We cannot put the life of those pedestrians in danger by letting them alight and stop at the start of the flyover. That is really a dangerous scenario. Imagine you are driving and suddenly bus stops at the start of the flyover (noone would have imagined in his mind about the sudden stopage), and then a bunch of people coming out of the bus directly onto the road in front of your car. I mean, safety of those pedestrians are compromised, isn't it? Anw what about the car driver, if that belongs to one of the one of the Praja DDC, he will definitley give the pedestrians respect and let them cross but he has to apply sudden brakes and have to take sudden measures which the other driving coming behind him can't follow and any accident can happen. This is the problem right, a big problem.

That's why I told in one of my earlier commenth that either make that designated bus stop, so that any disciplined drivers coming on the way will take care accordingly and we can do something about the safety of the pedestrians and passengers.

Also, a little of topic, but about the pedestrians at the same flyover, I see a pattern below the flyover. Many people are visible walking out there, directly on the roads, there exists a few pedestrians to some distance, but people don't walk on it always.

But, not their fault totally, I see one company out there, just adjacent to the Adarsh Apartment there, they seems to have illegally encroached upon the pavements and are using the space for their parking. I will try taking a photo of the same and post it here. There is a narrow pavement from the axis books turn (start of the flyover), but it totally gets dissolved into nothing when that company comes into picture and again shows up after that. Similary, they can use the space below the flyover and make some pavement there itself, which can be very useful for passengers travelling below the flyover. In absence of all these, a whole bunch of people walking on both sides of the roads, putting their life in danger, something has to be done about the illegal encroachment of the pavement and about the space below the flyover.

Deepak

dvsquare's picture

Its getting worse every day

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Its getting worse day by day.

Today morning, when I passed from the same place, it was even worse than a actual bus-stop scene where just the place where the flyover starts, autos were standing in the leftmost lane, covering half of the left lane on the flyover. Now a bus came, it tried to stop in the second lane, but didn't and then overtook those autos, changed the lane to left and stopped there just after the autos. People alighted and boarded and bus went.

I don't think, this should be acceptable at all, I mean, I can understand people are facing problems, because of bad connectivity, no footpaths, interconnected bus-stops are far, but this is totally abusing the system by autos and buses.

Now, i see buses don't stop at the actual bus-stop just before the flyover, approx 70 mts before. All the money spent by BBMP on the bus-stop is also wasted then right. There exists a footpath from the bus-stop to domlur junction, I agree the condition worsens as you approach domlur junction, but its in considerable condition from the actual bus-stop and the start of the flyover where buses/autos actually stop.

Deepak

abidpqa's picture

 People already have to walk

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 People already have to walk about 300 m from the Airport road to reach inner ring road, then walk another 70 to 100 m to "obey the law."  It could be seen as a protest. Besides there is enough space at the bottom of the flyover for busstop and also cars.

Good that you brought discussion here, not like those malls which have made busstops "disappear."

dvsquare's picture

Are we saying that people have no responsibilities themselves?

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Most of the excuses (reasons) I am getting on this discussion is that people have to do this or walk that much or whatever. Many Praja members complaining about the problem pedestrians facing, but are they also aware of the fact that how much problems pedestrians also give to other people by their non-rule-following nature.

Let me cleary say that while I drive I very much give respect to pedestrians, I give them their right of way, I stop when I see people want to cross in front of my car. But at the same time, I feel, many times, this is just being used or granted. Most of the times, you will see the pedestrians, specially the younger crowd, they will try to signal having one hand on their ear with the phone and mind totally in that phone conversation and giving the total responsiblity of their life into motor driver's hand,  isn't that partial?

Despite having zebra crossing marked at many signals, atleast a few people like DDC members stop before signals, and pedetrians also have red and green signals for them with the additional sound system to alert the green signal, still why they always want to cross the road when the motor driver has a full green signal. Again isn't that partial again?

Why are we always acting agains motor drivers? Won't they feel bad or non-motivated when they see, more they try to respect pedestrians of follow rules, others on the road make use of them, take them granted, if this is the way, how will be able to motivate more and more people to follow rules as motor driver?

It all goes hand in hand, why only blame the motorists, pedestrians should be blamed as well and there should be awareness for them as well as how they should behave on the roads.

To the other point about flyover construction planning, yes, I do agree that there was not enough planning went in for pedestrians but is that right or genuine to take the right of motor/car driver to give it to pedestrians, aren't we talking like the communists then? If poor have no money, loot the richer one, is that we are trying to say here?

I know and very well understand that we have lot of vehicles on the road, many do not want to come out of their comfort zone of private vehicles and board a bus, but we have to give them good incentives in terms of respectable bus and bus-image. Just de-incentivizing them by "digging holes on the road so that they can't drive properly" is not the solution to reduce the congestion. Think, what if all the people decides to not to buy any car anymore, what would happen to car companies, so many employments, Road-taxes, India's economy, and what not? I just want to say that we have to make every thing moving hand-in-hand, just act against something is not going to help.

We have to teach motorists to follow rules, signals and respect pedestrians, but at the same time we have to teach/aware pedestrians also about respecting the law of road, and their respsonsiblities.

Why don't we  blame the pedestrians when despite having good pavements, they still walk on road, despite having good crossing or subways or foot-over bridge (atleast the non-disputed ones), why aren't they being used? I see the footover bridge on the 100 ft road Indiranagar near the adidas showroom (near the domlur flyvoer), I see noone uses that bridge to cross the road, every pedestrians is in hurry to cross the road stopping the traffic, then what's the use of those bridges or any other zebra crossings or any signals which are for them. First they should also show some kind of respect to the resources they have been granted, and then demand for more resources needed. That way when it goes hand in hand, one day you will see its all fine, all rules followed.

Deepak

ashwin's picture

Walk a bit

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Walk a bit, try crossing the road a few times(especially recommend Bellary Road opp Gayatri Vihar & Inner Ring Road opp Hero Honda showroom), run up and down pedestrian overbridges on a summer day. Then we can talk and understand each other better.

We are not saying that car users are evil. Most of us on this forum are car users at some point or the other. And even people who are perennial car users are as much victims of circumstance - lack of alternatives & poor infrastructure. The problem is with the planning and prioritization process related to infrastructure investment. 

A couple of more points.

It is not communism to prioritize the greatest good of the greatest number. That is (or should be) democracy.

Pedestrian Bridges and Pedestrian Subways are not infrastructure for pedestrians. They are infrastructure for car drivers. Till you understand that, you understand nothing.

 

 

pathykv's picture

Pedestrians

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"Why don't we  blame the pedestrians when despite having good pavements, they still walk on road"-Deepak

Where are these?

K.V.Pathy

dvsquare's picture

Let me clarify once again, don't take in wrong way

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Let me tell one thing, I do walk also, and cross the busy roads many times, but I ake care -

(1) I don't talk on the phone while I cross the road

(2) I wait for the pedestrians signals to go GREEN before I start crossing the road (on the signals where we have ped signals implemented)

and many other things like looking at either side for my safety while crossign the road.

I am not saying that don't give priority to public transport or pedestrians, yes I agree, they should be given priority but that doesn't mean that we have to take the rights of one to give it to others right? That's what my point was.

My point was that why we always (including me) blame many indisciplined drivers but we never see pedestrians being blamed for indiscipline they do and cause problems to others. For eg, we have many good pavements in bangalore, my problem is that, why people still use the roads to walk, they don't use the pavements still because of various reasons, one of the reason may be illegal encroachment of those good pavements, but then we should try to find out the root cause and fix it instead of transferring the problem to other set of people.

If you say - "Pedestrian Bridges and Pedestrian Subways are not infrastructure for pedestrians. They are infrastructure for car drivers." Do you want people to cross the road at any point on the road? I mean, in US also, people are only allowed to cross the road on the signals through those zebra markings, correct? We need to make sure that we make both the things working right?

I will also feel that most of the drivers do not respect the zebra crossings, but I also say one thing, even the pedestrians (for whom the zebra crossing is there), they also don't respect that.

My whole point is that, there has to be enforcement on the drivers to not to cross the zebra line and there should also be enforcement on the pedestrians that they should also cross the road on the nearest signal, isn't it? Otherwise tell me how we can make things go hand in hand? Proposal of few roads only for pedestrians make sense, yes, but what about all other roads?

"run up and down pedestrian overbridges on a summer day", if this is a problem, then we should ask for better alternatives like escalators or likes but we shouldn't shift the problem to other set of people, that is what I meant. We should approach the authorities about giving escalators instead of manual steps, and we should make them listen. When they can plan for HSRL and other stuff, then we can also ask them for automatic steps, I mean, pedestrians are also a major chunk of people on road. We should propose and if needed pressurize authorities to give all the pedestrians rights by many means on various roads, instead of doing things like non-designated stops or crossing anywhere on the busy road, and making our own life in danger. If the current way is to be called protest, then its not good for people themselves, because they are putting their life in danger and govt doesn't seem to care much about their people.

Deepak

dvsquare's picture

Pathy sir,

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Pathy sir,

I do not say that we have a good number of good pavements, but we have a few. We keep seeing them in new papers.

One such picture of people walking on road instead of good pavements can be found in one the Praja's APAD thread.

I also mentioned that, there are a few pavements being illegally encroached upon by roadside shopkeepers, or hawkers, and causing pedestrians to walk on road. So, I said that we should get to root-cause (illeagal encroachment) and fix that, instead of coming down on the road permanently as a solution right?

And few roads can be made fully pedestrians, that is also acceptable on a few roads.

psaram42's picture

It is neither the fault of the Police nor Mr. Sood

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 It looks like dvsquare specializes with Police and with Mr. Praveen Sood in particular as I see his 4 latest posts are revolving around Policing / Mr. Sood. No doubt Sood a charming personality responds / jells well with praja. 

My gut feeling is that there is a genuine need for a Bus stop at both ends of the flyover. Hence it is a Design failure, nothing to do with Policing or anybody else. Any flyover or any other road design should provide for pedestrian comfort. This is the missing link.

dvsquare's picture

Enforcement of the road discpline is Traffic police's business

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I know the thread started for the non-designated bus-stop at the middle of the road, but then it shifted to design of the flyover and about the pedestrian problems.

But at the end, the story is about non-disciplined motor-drivers, BMTC bus drivers, and as well as the pedestrians and for which Traffic police has to enforce the rules if they exists.

This post was about the non-designated bus stop at the start of the Domlur flyover, in the middle of the road in particular, but my whole point was about the similar scenes all over the bangalore, you can take the case of jayadeva flyover also, both at the start and end of the flyover on the ORR. Hence I had to refer to Mr. Sood, so that he should enforce a few things on the road-

(1) BMTC drivers are taught, trained and enforced not to stop in the middle of the road (regardless of the flyover).

(2) People waiting for the bus are not allowed to come on the leftmost lane, making the bus to stand on the 2nd left lane.

@psaram
And yes, my various posts deal with traffic indiscipline and hence you are right. And I also agree that Mr. Sood is good person who keeps taking feedback from Praja's posts and do take action, and hence I keep bringing him into the picture, and I acknowledge his efforts. Thanking him in advance.

And to add one more thing here, I saw 2 traffic policemen today, 1 standing at the start of the flyover and another standing on the flyover a little distance from the start. They must be there for something, probably some enforcement which we want. I couldn't watch their actions in that minimal time while I passed the flyover today. Thanks again to Mr. Sood.

Deepak

psaram42's picture

Deepak My point is not heard properly, I am afraid.

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 The police are un-necessarily taxed for no fault of either the Pedestrians or the Bus drivers. Of course both are wrong, the bus drivers and the pedestrians for stopping at unauthorized stops.

My point is the root cause is "failure at design stage" for not providing for proper bus shelters at design stage itself. This is corroborated by the ground realities. Hence according to me it is a design failure. The enforcement of a wrong design [by design] provides for corruption if not any thing else. You know what I mean!

dvsquare's picture

I got your point correctly and the solution as well

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But what I have tried to do here is that, a problem which is seen at all the bus-stops (regardless of flyover), I just put one scenario here (which had flyover in picture). I could have given all the various generic instances where buses are stopping at the middle lane, people waiting on the leftmose lane instead of their good sheltered bus-stops. But I thought of choosing one spot where I was seeing somewhat similar incident and tried to take a few snaps and brought the topic. Also, I kept tracking on various days if some kind of progress happened, as I daily pass that spot.

Some kind of enforcement has to be there in place, that's where I am demanding police intervention.

May be, next step, I may have to take snaps at all the locations wherever I am passing through and show up the indiscipline by any kind of road users and bring that into light so as to demand for police enforcement.

Deepak

Bheema.Upadhyaya's picture

Hand in hand

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I strongly believe that infrastructure development and enforncement should go hand-in-hand. For example : Once a lane is marked, there should be immediate enforcement in every possible way. May be a few days to be allowed as a learning period. I am feeling pain when I see neatly marked lanes in Hosur Road and no one follows lane while I am experimenting with lane driving. Same case again, when I see people do not use nicely newly built(not used as urinal still) footpath in eCity phase-2. If you ask me both pedistrians and drivers are equally responsible to follow the rules. If a driver can be fined as enforcement why not a jay-walker or a spitter? You have seen so many beggers and transgenders obstructing footpaths signals, why no action(like rehabitising) taken?

Second point is of design, which already discussed, but not going to help much as its past now. I agree with everyone that the design should be done with full considerations like bus stops, pedistrians, truck traffic, bicycles, rainwater drain, average speed, peak hour traffic and even nature (allow some birds/animal to enjoy infrastructure by providing something to them too by design. Example small water tub can be provided). I am more than 100% sure that the design is not validated by using all end-use considerations. 

Discussion not going to end, unless some action seen in ground. What all Prajas would like to see is a solution oriented discussion with realistic proposals, thoughts.

Coming back to subject. We all agree regarding problem now. So what is your solution for same? May be that will take it right direction. My thought on this, assuming no further investment done for already built flyovers.

a) Educate public/drivers with flood of information. Example: In both ends of flyovers show the sign board as "Not a bus stop. Fine Rs xxx.", "No people standing here. Fine xxx".

b) Allocate a enforcement team for a month or so. Let them fine ALL(impossible)  the offenders with a huge show-off (some stunt can be used. For example, 10 cops or someone who looks like-a-cop can surround a vehicle just for fining which pulls public attention.)

c) Meanwhile collect info as why that thing happened( we know its infrastructure, but where are numbers?)

 

 Note: We have seen in past that govt. organizations will pick up those ideas/proposals which do not need much investment/ political interference and relatively easy to implement (Good example : bus day). So solutions should consider this point importantly.

 

" My mantra to public bodies=> Enable->Educate->Enforce. Where does  DDC  fit?"
dvsquare's picture

Update

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As I have told, yesterday I saw 2 cops standing on the flyover(just at the start), but couldn't watch their action. Today while passing through the spot again, I see those cops standing there, it seems that they were trying to let the buses stop there, but not exactly at the start of the flyover, but after ascending a 10-20 metres approx. I don't know how is that solving the problem because neither this solves the jam behind the buses, nor it takes care of pedestrian safety, we don't have pavements alongside the flyover.

Deepak

dvsquare's picture

Right, past is past, we need to think right solution for present

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@Bheema: You are right, design flaw is there, and everyone agrees to it, but then we need to think the solution which caters to current problem.

(1) Enforcement has to be there as I have talked a lot about it. (After training, learning and awareness, warning and then strict fine)

Now, things around this -

(1) The space below the flyover has to be cleaned and cleared of mess and can be used by pedestrians who want to cross the old-airport road.

(2) The pavement alongside inner ring road (from bus-stop after hero honda showroom) till the flyover and even the flyover mid, we need to see where it has problems, I see one major encroachment on the pavement by some private company there by Adarsh Builders. They are using it for private parking.

 

May be I will start another thread on the same lines of APAD, where we all can post all such in-disciplines like buses stopping in the middle road, and people standing on left lane instead of sheltered bus-stops. Also, snaps of people walking on road when we have good footpaths. (Other motor indiscipline is already being captured in Bheema's APAD, so that's why I am not cosidering those other vehicles in this upcoming thread). And then somehow present it to BMTC as well as BBMP and Traffic Police, and see what they have to say about it.

Deepak

pathykv's picture

Pedestrians and Road design

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I agree that 'past is past'.

But what about the upcoming roads and bus shelters, fly overs, underpasses etc. It has already been highlighted how even now no norms are being followed by the designers, due to their incompetence and further damages done in execution due to incompetant supervision, not to speak of lack of integrity.

Yes, past is past, but what about the present and future?

Institutions like CISTUP should play a larger role.

K.V.Pathy

shashi kumar y's picture

lots discussed

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Deepak Sir, I don't really understand why you are not understyanding the real reasons instead of just complaing against the passengers, buses, & whom so ever except the Personal car users.

Let me ask the following questions to one and all:

** Does any one know why the passengers don't stay under the bus shelters provided??
** Why the buses stop in the middle of the lane( in few cases I too agree that they do it wrong)??
** Does any one have know how much a common passenger has to walk b/w stops??  considering their other stress factor.

Regarding the Domlur flyover, actually the present stop under it is also not an approved one. So calculate the actual distance ??

Enough of giving priority and rebates in what so ever for the motorists and personal car users. These people need all comfort but they are least bothered about the suffering of public transport users.

These personal users aren't ready to pay the parking fee of mere Rs:10  and want all in free. Take the example of JAYANAGAR. The cars are parked in fornt of the houses even blocking the gates.

Would you have kept quiet if some body had done in front of your house... so this is called Discipline and educated people.

Why should we point others rather blame ourselves. When some looks for their comfort, the same is with opposite one. Even they have the right for comfort.

Though this sounds silly, but it is not. Because, this is INDIA and INDIANS. As long as the polictics and other High sector people won't intervene in city administration, INDIA won't develop.
That is the reason why the parking fee was abolished from the Bangalone.

Thanks. One single quote to deepak. It's INDIA and we as INDIANS we need to adjust with every thing.

dvsquare's picture

I am just trying to be specific in this particular case

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@Bheema

Deepak Sir, I don't really understand why you are not understyanding the real reasons instead of just complaing against the passengers, buses, & whom so ever except the Personal car users.

I have already mentioned that I am not only against buses or anything in particular, I am against all the indiscipline. But why are you saying that I should understand the real reasons or if I understand, does that solve the problem? I have agreed that there are design flaws in the flyover construction, but will just undertanding solve the problem? No... Right? Please see my previous comment which talks about now what can be done about coming out of the mess as a starting. Secondly, I also said that I can post about every other indiscipline on the road, making all my points generic, but will that serve purpose? It won't. If you read my previous post, I clealy said that since Bheema already have a APAD and DDC thread/project which deals more about personal car users's indiscipline, I am here showing the buses and passengers indiscipline, thats all. Nothing for somebody and nothing against somebody. Its just I am concentrating on one sector of problem, and we can't solve the problem just by giving excuses or saying that someone else is doing bigger indiscipline.

Let me try to answer your questions in logical way -

** Does any one know why the passengers don't stay under the bus shelters provided??
I really don't know why they don't stay under the bus shelters, may be because buses are always standing far from the bus-stops in the middle of the road or sometimes before-after the bus-stop.


** Why the buses stop in the middle of the lane( in few cases I too agree that they do it wrong)??

Because passengers are always standing in the leftmost lane forcing bus-driver to stand in the middle lane, or passengers standing in groups at any place before and after bus-stop forces bus driver to stop where the people are standing instead of stopping at bus-stops.


** Does any one have know how much a common passenger has to walk b/w stops??  considering their other stress factor.
I can understand that very well and hence there you are, you have been pointing those problems out in the forum right, you are front-ending the proposals about solving the problem, right? and we Praja people supporting you and suggesting you as well.

Did you see the answers of the first 2 questions, how are they inter-related to each other? And that has been my point from post-1. It all goes hand-in-hand and for that we need enforcement.

To add to the answer of the 3rd question, the way are you concerned about the passengers walking a longer distance between the 2 bus-stops (I am concerned as well), in the similar way, I am very concerned about buses stopping in the middle of road, overtaking other standing buses in those narrow roads etc. So, lets not give excuse of one problem to another problem, instead we should try to help drop down any kind of discipline.

" It's INDIA and we as INDIANS we need to adjust with every thing."
This is what we at Praja don't want to think right? We want to make things right, we want to bring discipline, fight against corruption and what not.

 

Deepak

psaram42's picture

A lengthy discussion indeed

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 The three questions of Mr. Shashi kumar above are in fact very apt. Any designer should put himself in the user’s shoes and try to figure out his requirements, before committing to any design. Several Brain storming sessions need to be done. Even then if any thing can go wrong it will. [1]

You can experience this in how the Auto design has evolved over the years since the first Ford T model. Same is true in Wilber Write brothers’ first flight [2]

Unfortunately our experience is that we in India don’t believe in innovations especially as far as town planning is concerned. [3] Yeddyurappa knowingly or unknowingly has donated Crores of rupees to the IISc resulting in the new CiSTUP department. Praja is working in collaboration with CiSTUP [4] 

I have been advocating pair of one way roads continuously enclosing the Business district concept of town planning. [5]

dvsquare's picture

Update - 21st March - Thanks for the action.

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Today, when i crossed the same spot again, I saw the same 2 traffic cops( i mentioned in my comment few days back), they were trying to send the public back 50 meters to the actual bus-stop and not letting the buses to stop there. Buses are seen to be stopping at the normal bus-stop, where they didn't use to stop earlier even for the people who were standing there, so everyone had to move to flyover (with or without reason) to catch the bus earlier.

I would like to thank again for the action taken. I hope it continues for sometime till people understand and become habitual of the correct bus-stop.

While this goes on, we as Praja people, can concentrate on how should be done better for pedestrians after whatever wrong-right happened in flyover construction.

I am going to take some snap near the same spot where there is a Adarsh Developer's building, some private company, they have encroached on the public footpath for their parking. I wil try to take some pic and post and discuss about that to bring attention of the authorities to that too.

Deepak

imran_huq17's picture

Good Post - Some Scientic Analysis - Ishikawa Diagram

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I am a consultant by profession and generally whenever there are lengthy discussions about some problems.We try to scientifically evaluate the problems and come up with solutions which is what i have tried to do for this post as i found this post to be quite interesting..
 
The Technique used is Ishikawa Fishbone Diagram.I have written some details below.

 

The Ishikawa Diagram
The Ishikawa Diagram, also known as the Fishbone Diagram or the Cause-and-Effect Diagram, is a tool used for systematically identifying and presenting all the possible causes of a particular problem in graphical format.  The possible causes are presented at various levels of detail in connected branches, with the level of detail increasing as the branch goes outward, i.e., an outer branch is a cause of the inner branch it is attached to.  Thus, the outermost branches usually indicate the root causes of the problem.

The Ishikawa Diagram resembles a fishbone (hence the alternative name "Fishbone Diagram") - it has a box (the 'fish head') that contains the statement of the problem at one end of the diagram.  From this box originates the main branch (the 'fish spine') of the diagram.  Sticking out of this main branch are major branches that categorize the causes according to their nature.

I feel it will be  easier to discuss about solutions looking at this diagram and easy to pinpoint at what issues are causing majority of the problems.
(Most of them are self evident - but still a scientific approach.........!!!!!)

i feel looking at the diagram and we can easily identify the causes and try to eliminate them.

If we can just eliminate 20% of the causes  we can get 80% relief.
(one more popular solution technique)
 
In this case i feel if there is proper enforcement that will take care of irresponsible commuters and drivers.

Regards,

Imran.

PS :My sincere apologies if i sound too technical i can just say that's a kind of world i live in.

psaram42's picture

A great management tool indeed!

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 I was surprised to find that the pictorial presentation of the exact causes of a particular event / events which are famously known as Ishikava Diagram is a great management tool!

 

dvsquare's picture

Thanks BTP, its now our turn, we citizens have to follow rules

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Felt good to read this -

Traffic jams: Cops launch drive to discipline BMTC drivers, autowallahs

Push-and-pull

Sood said a multi-pronged strategy has been adopted. “There are three important aspects here. Autorickshaws have to be prevented from parking near bus stands. Bus drivers have to be conditioned to park in the bays. Strict action will be taken against both if they fail. But it is the people who have to be of a big help here. We see people standing 50 metres away from the bus stands. They stand half way across the road and buses are forced to stop away from the stands, often in the middle of the road. It should be a push and pull effort. We can push the buses to the stands. But people should do their bit and pull them there,” he said.

 

Thanks Mr. sood and Bangalore Traffic Police.

Others at Praja, if you are on Facebook, please become fan of Bangalore Traffic Police, they are doing really good work there, its a lot of complaints and rants about this issue in last few weeks, many people (including me) have posted a lot of photo-proofs of these happenings and we got Mr.Sood's reply there and today we see some action. All of Prajagalu's can also help in pointing out violations (traffic related only) and suggestions to BTP.

Deepak

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