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ORR choking near KR Puram station - one reason

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TrafficTraffic jams

Speaking of KRPuram shouldnt this entire length be only 2 lanes wide? Why are they allowing the use of the entire pancreatic bulge before the chicken neck? There should only be as many lanes as allowable for the entire stretch. So what do the "engineers" in the BBMP think when they lay asphalt? Do they know their profession has a meaning?

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silkboard's picture

I so agree

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Go through this particular place every evening. The bulge, and then the narrow/choke section - that is definitely one reason for backup here. It could speed up this point by 30-40%. What makes it worse are these two things

  • Buses stop at a stand right where the 'bulge' changes into a 'neck'
  • No facilities for peds under the bridge - they must walk on the road, without protection, except in mornings, and sometimes in the evening when a cop is around to blow whistles.

What the hell would it take to do a pedestrian subway here? I wonder if we should take it in our hands and organize a public works/digging day to launch construction of a ped subway. [not as easy as this is right under the cable bridge structure]

Last time I asked at KR Puram police station, 7 children were hit (most injured, and possibly 1 died - confirmation wasn't clear) at this point in last 9 months. This was via an informal chat with two cops, not any RTI.

silkboard's picture

bulge is for the bus stand

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BTW, and to be fair to BBMP or BDA (whoever did this stretch), the bluge is designed for buses to stop.

  • Just that the buses prefer stopping where people are - right near the exit point from the station -right at the critical curve.
  • Why do the buses go till the curve, and not stop at the bulge - because people wont walk up till the designated bus stand.
  • So, why would people won't walk this extra 40-50 meters? Because there are no clear signs pointing to the bus stand, or proper pavements for them to walk once they exit out of the railway station.

Its all linked - and I am sure BBMP/BDA etc etc, everyone realizes this point.

Just so that I am not blamed for shooting from the hip, I will stop at this place in the evening (today or tomorrow), and take some pics/video.

silkboard's picture

Tried a sketch (correction)

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Since its tough to get a good snapshot on google maps (the bridge's shadow, and not enough zoom), I tried this drawing to suggest what IDS may be hinting at, plus some more.

Important: its not as easy as the sketch suggests. There is a genuine problem right at the curve, near where ped subway location has been suggested. the curve may not be able to take three lanes of traffic - you would need little more width than average at the curve to accomodate longer vehicles (bus, trucks). If a little bit of land can be leased from railways only at this point - for a bus only lane - that should do the trick.

 

Not that this alone would be enough. The demerge between Old Madras Road and Outer Ring Road 500 meters before this point is another choke point + pedestrian nightmare (see other posts for suggestions about a bus stand near the media with subway for accessing it). Plus, there is a road opening into Outer Ring Road right near the bridge pillar from South side.  Can talk this one in separate one.

Hope that all this or anything else wont be lost in the famous NHAI vs BDA vs Traffic Police punt. Besides half lande width worth land right at the curve, doing the ped subway too would require Railways help, as the opening on station end would fall in their land.

idontspam's picture

They DO NOT know

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 and I am sure BBMP/BDA etc etc, everyone realizes this point

So why the inaction? I dont agree that they know  a solution, they may know they have a problem, and are most probably looking for multi million dollar solution. They do not know how to engineer lane markings at all. Since you go on that road look for lane markings and check if it resembles what you and I are hinting thru illustrations and scribbles. BBMP doenst understand or use Hatched markings or Chevrons, or the use of lane dividers to protect hatched areas.

Because there are no clear signs pointing to the bus stand, or proper pavements for them to walk.

This is the bottomline. Here and all over the city. This is the main reason for the mess.

blrsri's picture

how about the railways?

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In the picture iDS has put up above..the existing bus bay exit is made very sharp because of the rails/compund there put up by IR..

What I had heard before was that the original plan was to take the ORR through that baricaded area and through the two wheeler parking lot of railway station.

There was also a proposal to bring down the small block of old railway quarters just after this jn. This would have kept the ORR 3 lanes each way all through..but IR never parted with the land..

Now that we have minister of state for IR from Karnataka..getting these pieces of land for improving roads should be taken up!

s_yajaman's picture

Correct IDS

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IDS - it's a shame.  You and I seem to agree on more things nowadays.  What is the world coming to? :)

My blood pressure goes up each time I see that sort of photograph.  It is a symptom of complete apathy.

I don't think they even realize there is a problem.  What problem?  If most junctions look this way, then this is normal.  People will struggle a bit.  Some kids will get hit.   Bus commuters will stand in the heat  and dust (isn't that what India is all about anyway).

The bus bulge can have a bus shelters and pavements.  Some islands and traffic lights can help add some calm. 

I think SB is being very generous to the BBMP and BDA. 

Srivathsa

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

silkboard's picture

They do realize

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I can take one name for sure - Mr Jai Prasad from BBMP - he clearly knows that throughput of a road stretch is proportional to the width of the narrowest section.

What I don't know is this - why doesn't this knowledge translate to action?

And then - a few babus blame Praja like communities saying these guys should come help us and not just talk - well, tell us why you expect us to do your job? First explain the basics to us, the clueless people - why is it that you all know the right things and yet miss the basics on the ground? I am not cribbing - genuinely want to understand.

Just see these posts - how many members actually believe that BBMP or BDA actually understand the solutions, let alone the problems? Once BBMP/BDA/Police can explain their side well enough that hey, trust us, we know and understand all this, but here is what stops us from doing all this good stuff, I bet people will jump in to help.

s_yajaman's picture

Do they realize junction specific issues?

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SB,

But do they understand junction specific issues?  Is their organization set up  for this? e.g. with person X responsible for Roads A,B,C and junctions D,E,F along those roads?

I am not sure how online communites such as ours are to blame in any way!  This is our way of venting our frustration - we don't go about breaking bus windows or throwing stones at buildings, etc.  Whether we existed or not, the problems would exist.  Is our fault then that we point the problems out and mince no words while doing so, instead of being "understanding"? 

I remember one bureaucrat (won't mention the name) said that it was easier to get work done in Infosys than in the government.   Well guess what - Infosys is designed for that because their customers demand deadlines and cost targets.  There is a good organization design principle - every organization is designed (deliberately or by default) to deliver the results it does.  And if brilliant (and I mean it) IAS officers cannot simplify internal work processes, then who is going to? One aspect of leadership is to simplify and not manage complexity!

Sorry for the rant.  Am in a bit of a ranting mood.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

abidpqa's picture

I have heard there is a plan

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I have heard there is a plan to acquire land on the other side of the bridge (Lowry school side). This could solve the problem to some extend.

As a temporary solution, the restriction of trucks between 8 to 10 in the morning and 6 to 8 in evening could be considered on this stretch.

idontspam's picture

Multi million solution

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I have heard there is a plan to acquire land on the other side of the bridge (Lowry school side).

We have 2 clear lanes all the way from beginning of the bridge all the way to whitefield. Do we know how to manage throughput with what we have? Even the split ahead at ring road can be managed by signboards to stick to right lane all the way from begining of the KR Puram flyover itself.

silkboard's picture

how will they?

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Srivathsa - to join on the rant train a bit, how would you expect BBMP to understand road design well enough, or BBMP route designs?

It will go back to the basic point - govt doesn't have talent working for them, simple. Everything else is a symptom. All else would be fringe items - babus are not responsible, bodies don't collaborate (KR Puram chaos is prime example) etc etc. But the heart of the matter is - beyond the guys who come in through that top level public service exam - where is the talent?

Perhaps some out of the box thinking or programs could help

  • hire people on short term basis from open market to bridge the talent gap?
  • Or, a Singapore army like service ? - everyone city's magaa must give 1 year of service to the city after college education?
  • Companies operating in the city could give talented people (for short term projects) as "bangalore tax".

Or the more regular way - project based outsourcing (build and maintain this corridor, here are the throughput goals) as opposed to peice meal work tenders (1 tender for road taring, 1 tender for footpaths, 1 tender for painting signs) that only help to create more need for someone higher up to integrate things.

We have gone way offtopic now. I am done with pure rants.

s_yajaman's picture

Beg to differ

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SB,

Look at this picture of Nairobi City Square

Or Phonm Penh

Or Saigon (Ho Chi Minh City)

You think they are teeming with Harvard graduates?

Show me equivalent photos of Bangalore.

A lot begins with the leadership of any department.  Easy to blame the people down below.  But do the top guys really do a lot to develop capability?

Rant off.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Naveen's picture

Talent display needed on the ground

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Pictures of NR square, Hudson circle & Vidhana Soudha that showcase Bangalore in tourist manuals are similar to what SY has posted here - the traffic chaos in Ho Chi Minh city is well known, though it may not be as bad as in Bangalore or other Indian cities.

The administrators in those countries learn from others & make copies that are almost as good, if not better. Our babus utilize such opportunities to tour other countries & fill their albums with pictures - that's it, learning & implementation be damned !

We need babus to use their skills & display their talents in overcoming a barrage of severe problems such as land scarcity, excess traffic, indiciplined users, etc.. 

Instead of this, though they may have performed well in exams, they get busy courting politicians for plum postings & such ópportunities & pay only lip service for much needed improvements.

This is why acheivements of people like Dr.Sreedharan stand out - hope we get to see many more like him in the years to come.

silkboard's picture

back to the topic - fresh pictures

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Uploading some pics I took today. Stopped for a moment, and did some rough measurements. I think we have just about enough space to manage three lanes right at the curve (or the neck).

This is where the bulge begins - 3 lane worth width.

 

Yes, a bus stand, which is visible - with usual autos and trucks parked near it

 

Approaching the neck, or the curve - still 3 lanes worth width. Notice where people are walking. Many more do - this is holiday time, not rush hour, plus its worse in the morning when people get off of shuttles in large numbers and come to the road. At evening time, people arrive to depart in batches and not all at once, so problem is less apparent.

 

Right here - I am next to a truck, and to the right of this truck is a big Toyota Innova (in the right most lane - not visible). Little tough for three wide vehicles to make the curve at the same time - but could be done, with just a wee bit of help from railways, and if we can keep the pedestrians off (on railway land, in the subway), we could just about squeeze it in. And yeah, this is where buses tend to stop a lot, esp the illegal ones (minivans, call center cabs) because stopping closure to where people are gets them more passengers.

The pillar that supports the bridge - left to the pillar can be the bus only lane, right side for regular traffic.

 

So now, here it is, in pictures. I bet there is at least one if not more if not all responsible people in power not trying hard enough.

sanjayv's picture

Couple of items of interest to this post

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 Please note the following in the BDA 2009-2010 budget - not withstanding the thought that this was a fake budget as discussed in an earlier thread.

Item (m) under new works: Constn of Loop to Connect to Old Madras Road with ORR & widening of ORR - budgeted amount for 2009-2010: 15 crores

Item (c) under the head new works:  Constn. Of Grade separator along with ORR at the Intersection of Mahadevapura: Budget 20.25 crores

Depending on what exactly these improvements are, there may be scope for improving that general area if these plans are properly designed and executed.  Does anybody have any idea what exactly these changes are.  There is already a partial grade separator at the Mahadevapura ORR intersection, right?

Apart from the discussion in this thread about geometry and pedestrians,as well as KR Puram station,  two things that irk me about the design of this area are (a)  Why does traffic from the ring road (Hebbal side) have to do a U-turn stunt before exiting to Bangalore city?  Was it not possible to have a loop directly connecting to OMR? (b): Same question about the cable stayed bridge portion.  The traffic comes to Pai layout to do a U-turn and head towards ORR.  What kind of a boneheaded design is that?

 

tsubba's picture

engineering:

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in similar circumstances, metro has a different design. where they have a horizontal bar and two vertical supports across the road (there is a pic here on praja i cant find it). instead of one bang in the middle of it.

just wanted to point that out.

s_yajaman's picture

And if were to ask a set of questions via an RTI

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What would they be?  There is obviously something very wrong here and it reeks of negligence and neglect

What questions would we ask?

E.g.

a. During the construction of the suspension bridge was a pedestrian footpath planned along the ORR between point X and point Y?

b. How much money was allocated for this footpath?

c. Which department was responsible for constructing this footpath?

d. Who was the contractor?

e. What pedestrian facilities were planned?

Get what I mean?

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Naveen's picture

Sensible to follow CTTP

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The problem here is that OMR & ORR merge & demerge in way of the tin factory area, with consequent traffic conflicts due to several different flow patterns. In addition, with KR puram station also thrown in there, pedestrian movements are also high, particularly during peak hours.

The design was probably accepted at the time of construction, with the belief that traffic volumes will not rise by so much. Now, it has turned out to be a really difficult problem to resolve.

The CTTP has recommended a removal of the "kink" & to realign the ORR adjacent to the railway tracks instead of the present overlap with OMR, which I think is the sensible thing to do.

However, as pointed out by sanjay above, they are planning to complicate it further with more loops & what not - this will surely lead to even more problems later.

idontspam's picture

More sidewalk instead

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 I still think BBMP should strongly consider only 2 lanes with very wide sidewalk (grey area). There are lot of pedestrians in this area and I see very little ped walking space. 2 lanes with wide sidewalk will please the commuters. The bus bay can be longer to allow for more buses and encourage them to pull over.

 

These concrete barriers can be used to try the flow before permenant changes are made.

Clive VanBuerle's picture

The bottle neck at KR Puram Station

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I've been a daily user of this road for over a year now, one measure to ensure free flow of raffic is to find a solution for pedestrians to cross over to the railway station/bus stop from the other end. I saw suggestions of an underepass but experience tell me it will take a few years to have a fully functioning one even if it were sanctioned today.

What would work is a pedestrian overbridge like we have on old airport road and near bishop cottons boys school. This can begin a little after the road curves (actually in the railway parking lot and go right across, this may mean broadning the footpath at the other end.

 

blrsri's picture

Singnal free ORR and PRR

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 Talking about the traffic here..a bulk of it is HTV/Multi axle vehicles which do not have an alternate to get to hosur road from tumkur road..

The PRR work need to be hastened to move this traffic..

Among the other grand plans of the Govt. we have the 'signal free' ORR corridor from Silkboard to Hebbal road..this should also address the pedestrians..cos the signal under  the hanging bridge is mostly for peds..

magic underpass peds are more useful here than wasting it on millers road/nrupathunga road!

n's picture

More representation

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At silkboard - regarding "They do realize" - you hit the nail on the head, sir. Another nail with the lack of talent. World-over the common trend is for the private sector to pay more and so the "lesser" (or leftover if you will) talent gets into the govt. Unfortunately, the "leftover" is further (and uniquely) jinxed in India with the "greatest" concept ever - reservation based on caste that refuses to acknowledge merit.

The biggest hurdle to getting things fixed? A-p-a-t-h-y; both from the public and the authorities. Ask the public in an impromptu survey and almost 100% of the people passing on the road will moan and blame the authorities. How many pursue it (apart from the occasional letter to editor or internet ranter)? None. Why should authorities bother if more people don't complain? Note that the same authorities do fix things quickly when appropriately highlighted in media. The fallacy that they don't know (for example) to refill a ditch after digging it is ridiculous. Long-term planning, vision etc. missing and coupled with don't-care and corruption is the cause.

Solution? More involvement of people without being selfish. If everybody thinks I am not affected so why should I? the status quo will continue ...


idontspam's picture

Dissapointed & Ashamed

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 I am dissapointed that ABIDe has not taken up such matters. They are busy fighting HSRL or Metro for Airport instead. These are basic issues they should be focussing on. It has become another useless organization with no vision other than recommend building more roads.

Our traffic chaos and engineering standards can be beaten only by the poorest countries in sub Saharan Africa. I am ashamed of BBMP and other organizations which take care of our infrastructure. They dont believe in implementing anything.

silkboard's picture

Basic road engineering issues - who do we meet?

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Okay, enough expressed, looks like basic stuff doesn't get done, and these small hanging fruits will give us far far better return on investment than some other projects.

So now, lets try meet someone to pass on this gyaan, and understand why quality of public engineering is in shambles.

Who is the best person for us to try and reach? Who do we try to contact?

Can someone come forward to audit some recent road works project to expose the reasons behind absence of basic engineering/design aspects? 3-4 RTIs and 2-3 meetings is all it could take.

Journalists are most welcome - I will help write the RTIs, just need some support, can't do this alone.

srkulhalli's picture

Improving our road engineering

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This thread is of interest , since I have interacted with BBMP/BDA a little bit - my two cents

There is a dearth of awareness of road engineering which runs top down - and the ability it can play to solve issues. The tendency is to look for something "BIG" to solve our problems and this runs across the board (not just engineers )

The engineers, the few I interacted, are not as dumb as indicated. They are quite "on the ground smart".   For eg: they have numbers on their finger tips - we could discuss sense on what lane width should be (they knew how wide a bus is), they can look at pavements and tell you how much it should cost, tender details (which is quite detailed) , they could explain better than me issues with existing drainage systems etc.  As I have mentioned in my document, the focus is so strong on material and construction, design is getting missed out.

This is the hard part for me to understand as well - the system over time gets set in its ways of doing things - and it becomes hard to change. Each engineer gets into the system and gets 'trained' into its ways - their eyes do not open to other aspects. Companies that get set in similar fashion just die and new companies are born - but that cannot happen in govt. organisation. We dont realise it, but our thinking has overtime broadened because we work with so many diverse professionals internationally, see so many things and what becomes obvious to us is not so obvious to others not having that exposure.

The last issue is of detailing. I usually hate to generalise and say culture, but culturally we dont value details and detailing as much and I see that on Praja as well.  Every person highlights one or two details that are poor and goes to town about it - but there are tens, maybe hundred of them and you need to take care of them all to get a quality product.  Somebody needs to step back and collate all of them, structure them and design such that it all adds up. There are very few people who can or willing to do it, across the board, across the community.

To improve things, this is my approach -

I wouldnt go the RTI path - it is a little confrontational, doesnt add much value, will create more hype than substance and at the end of it you are left with the same engineers who have got suspicious of you.

To improve the roads, you have to improve the people responsible for them. One is to fill in the missing link - by providing all the detailing required in one easy to use/ easy to understand/easy to refer too document. Second, to actually show designs of certain sections and how it can be differently, engage with the engineers to open up to this perspective and lastly get some seminars/training organised on a continuos basis so that they start picking up. I am working on all these three and some of you have been helpfull, but it has been sparse - a more committed effort would be useful.

If this appears a long, tedious, boring method, it is. The alternative is to rant on boards and forget about it. 

Suhas

idontspam's picture

Committment

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I am working on all these three and some of you have been helpfull, but it has been sparse - a more committed effort would be useful.

I was waiting for you to come in hoping this will go forward :) I am all ears, how much more committment do you need.

I want to complete the design for the strech from Benningennahalli flyover to where it splits at ORR. We can tackle the other side after this is done. I need those initial drawings you make I dont have the tools and the on ground measurements. Will be good if we can take this like the Hosur road project.

 

silkboard's picture

good point Suhas, so lets do this

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Yes, do agree that RTIs are seen as confrontational. If we can get the answers merely by asking someone, there is no need to start with RTIs.

Goal is to understand why all this comon sense wisdom doesn't translate to good engineering in public works (in this case, Road work).

So lets do this. Like we are trying with BMTC, let us create a channel of commmunication with BBMP. Challenge here is that BBMP may not be as well organized a body as BMTC, ut we will figure as we go.

All we need to get started is for at least two Praja members to play the 'engagement manager" with BBMP. Basically, we are asking for Manjari/Sudheendra/Rithesh equivalents to organize small group iteractions where we take summary of all these discussions to BBMP.

Won't be a lot of work - may be one meeting a month at max. And purely online (out of Bangalore) members will help preparing sumarized content to take to these meetings.

2 volunteers for the engagement manager job here, thats all, and we can get started with taking our requirements and gyaan to BBMP.

idontspam's picture

Good one

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 This image made here for praja a while back is good routing. Let us use this as base to setup the traffic for further ahead.

Lane 1. Outer (left) most most lane from the Ben. flyover is for ITPL/ORR (lane ending)

Lane 2. Center lane of Ben. flyover is for ITPL/ORR

Lane 3. Inside lane of the Ben. flyover is for ORR/NH4 Kolar (traffic merge indicator)

Lane 4. Outside lane of OMR is for ITPL/ORR (traffic merge indicator)

Lane 5. Inside (right) lane of OMR for NH4 Kolar

Merge lanes 1& 2, close to the end of the flyover marking it for ITPL and retain inside lane 3 for continuing to ORR. The outer most lane 1 which was ended should be hatched and will be useful space for sidewalks and bus bays further ahead. 

Vehicles heading to NH4(kolar) from Ben. flyover in Lane 3 need to switch to Lane 4 and Vehicles from OMR on Lane 4 switch to Lane 3 to go to ORR/ITPL.

Lane 5 continues to NH4 Kolar. This can open up to Lane 6 on the Cable stayed bridge not before that.

So after ben. flyover there will only be left lanes 2&3 going towards ITPL/ORR and right lanes 4&5 Going towards NH4 Kolar.

These 4 lanes should set up the traffic for further ahead. 

Transmogrifier's picture

Ramamurthy Nagar (ORR) to Bangalore CBD

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Excellent examples (here and here) of the low-hanging fruits that most of us on here wish the powers-that-be pick! And not so much the 22,000 crore headline grabbers... (are you listening ToI, DH?). Extra-wide footpaths are sorely needed in the area.

@ SB... since most of the proposed design improvements under the flyover marking (here) are road-marking (chevrons), wouldn't BDA be the point agency? BTP for the barriers?

@ IDS another potential use for lane 1(while still on the Benniganahalli flyover) ...albeit in the long run is to build a loop using the existing Benniganahalli lake park to build a U-turn for OMR vehicles to go to Bangalore (guessing this would be BDA and NHAI). 

From Praja_posts

Does anyone have any ideas for restoring pedestrian connectivity across ORR/Cable stayed bridge? The cable-stayed bridge had these pedestrian tunnels but they open out right onto the ORR lanes (blue ovals). My thought was two small ped magic boxes (purple boxes) on either end of ORR that open under the on/off ramp to the Cable-stayed bridge. To cross ORR you would: a) use the ped subway, b) come out inside the tunnel c) on the other end of the tunnel use another subway to cross the remaining portion of ORR.  

From Praja_posts

TM

thampan's picture

on krpuram

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I think that there is a simple way to ease the merge of traffic before the cable stay bridge.  thought will try to put it across while on the topic of krpuram traffic.

 

the road marked in red color needs to be constructed,  but guess that can be easily done.

Basically lane 4 in IDS's post is moved to the extreme left so that the merge become simpler.

thampan's picture

RAMAMURTHY NAGAR (ORR) TO BANGALORE CBD

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 TM,

In my opinion, this should be done by developing the roads between NGEF & Ramamurthy nagar and not through KRpuram

idontspam's picture

@thampan

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the road marked in red color needs to be constructed

This road in the form of a tunnel opening up near the bulge did cross my mind to avoid the double merge but that can be made feasible after optimally utilizing the existing available space. This can take the place of lane 1at the opening point that would make the ITPL/ORR road 3 lane again which cannot be handled efficiently now. If we are able to handle the merge efficiently for a while we can look at avoiding this road altogether.

idontspam's picture

@TM

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build a loop using the existing Benniganahalli lake park to build a U-turn for OMR vehicles to go to Bangalore 

There already exists a U turn under the cable stayed bridge to go back to OMR westbound. It would be cruel to destroy a lake side park and put up a road to service that category. We should instead put up direction boards on ORR before climbing the ben. bridge for vehicles to use Sadanand nagar/NGEF road to go to OMR. 

Does anyone have any ideas for restoring pedestrian connectivity across ORR/Cable stayed bridge?

There could be a case for building an extensive pedestrian network around this area which I am trying to work out. But in the short term there will be 3 pedestrian crossings on the ITPL/ORR road.

PedX 1: At the foot of the cable bridge ITPL/ORR demerge to get people to board buses at the chevron. (This may need us to make lane 4 bus only, design the space covered by the chevron appropriately and open up lane 6 a little ahead to retain more than a single through fare to NH4)

PedX 2: Around the middle of the bulge where the ped underpass inside the cable bridge exists. We should place the bus bay close to this under bridge when designing.

PedX 3: At the chicken neck under the Cable bridge to take people from the station to the island under the bridge (this will need wide ped marking and a warden as well)

thampan's picture

@IDS

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 there is no need for a tunnel road, there is space by the side of the lake and enough space to merge before the cable bridge. It can be a on the surface road.

The red line will be a permanent divider which ensures that a bus stop can be constructed safely.

idontspam's picture

More road

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there is space by the side of the lake 

Yes raised green space in the form of a bund. It would include flattening the ground destroying the bund. I dont know the impact of destroying this bund/green space. Maybe somebody on the ground is better placed.

enough space to merge before the cable bridge.

The reason I thought this road was a good idea was to avoid merge, but if we create a road and create more merges then what good is it?

thampan's picture

left merge v/s right merge

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the flow will be stream lined and in same direction when merging with this road instead of the criss cross merge that we have today.

As shown in the diagram, this will allow the creation of a safe bus shelter on the road towards kolar.

Agree about the tank bund, the lake will suffer to a small extent - costs need to be evaluated.

idontspam's picture

Case for lane 6

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 Let me try to make a case to keep lane 6 open all through. Have to go further back for this. 

OMR after IRR (100ft road) intersection has been widened to hold 3 lanes at least. While more lanes possible let us assume those extra lanes will get used up for bus bays holding area etc for namma metro. If 3 lanes get past Ramamurthy nagar RUB east bound, the left lane will be dedicated for vehicles getting to ORR north bound. This will have quite a traffic being a major exit for east Bangalore to get to the Airport so a dedicated exit lane is in order. Considering the other 2 lanes go all the way through to the cable bridge it makes sense to  retain Lane 5 & Lane 6 for through traffic and earmark Lane 4 for Bus and merging traffic. Lane 6 will start where the Ben. flyover drops and the space widens to hold 3 lanes. NH4 through traffic will be dedicated to Lanes 5 & 6, Lane 4 will continue to be merge lanes.

Stop 1: (Tin factory) On the left for Buses from ORR towards ITPL/ORR

Stop 4: On the Chevron for Buses towards Kolar on NH4

PedX1: Connects Stop 1 & Stop 4

Aside: What this will do is, once metro starts, to allow a janti vahana bus to start from Benninganahalli metro make stops at KRpuram station and go all the way to ITPL. If there are ring road buses metro folks could change at KR Puram station and take the ring road buses. 

idontspam's picture

Case for Island Stop

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Splitting the ORR and ITPL buses to their lanes will not only ensure they stay in their lane at the chicken neck but will also split the crowd to make it more managable. 

Stop 2: All buses headed towards ITPL/Whitefield. This could be made into a bus bay as there may be more buses to ITPL/Whitefield and also allow the ITPL vehicles and pass thru.

Stop 3: All buses headed towards ORR south bound.

PedX2: Connects stops 2 & 3 & the underpass.

There needs to be sidewalk, not shown in this diagram, along the wall of the cable bridge with railings to take people to either the underpass or to Stop 4 on the cable bridge chevron. There also needs to be sidewalk of appropriate size where the hatched area is to connect to stop 1 near the Ben. bridge.

This should connect all 4 bus stops and also the KR puram station and the underpass to the tin factory side.

If the bus stops are connected this way we can check the need for PedX3 near the chicken neck after revisiting the stops on the other direction.

tsubba's picture

AWESOME

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sorry for the distraction. just wanted to shout. AWESOME goings boys!!

idontspam's picture

The final stretch

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idontspam's picture

The other side

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On the other side (west bound to city), the merge scheme needs to be similar.

The Tin Factory bus stop needs to be split into 2. One KR Puram stop needs to be built closer to the cable stayed bridge underpass and another before the merge to the cable stayed bridge starts. The current stop AFTER the cable stayed bridge touches ground is cause for chaos. In terms of ped xing there need to be 3 like on the other side. Except that the Tin factory ped Xing PedX 1 wont connect across the high way from both sides. Solution is to put another hole in the wall of the Cable stayed bridge closer to the where it touches ground on the city side.

So there is my weekend worth of effort. Now if we can make this to scale and validate a few dimensions, we can lay it on the table for BBMP/BDA/NHAI/PWD to fight over who will ultimately scuttle this for status quo. There is no multi crore rupee contract just rationalization of lanes and tons of sign boards and painting/marking work. Yes there need to be sidewalks laid the only item nobody ever puts money on and which is worth the rupee.

idontspam's picture

Vote please

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 just wanted to shout. AWESOME goings boys

Please do cast your vote at the top of the post as well.

Transmogrifier's picture

Red road, island stops and more

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 @ thampan and IDS, I had thought of the "red road" also which I think is a great idea. Another thing to keep in mind is the plan to convert it (fortunately or unfortunately) to a 10 lane bridge with the initial plan being the construction of the outer 4. Setting aside all our arguments for why 10 lanes might be way too many lanes here, let's try to use the 2 new Eastbound lanes that are planned to be constructed first. Going by the artist's impression these head straight onto the Ben. flyover (Northbound)...

We can take the leftmost lane (red road) and send this under the Benn. flyover... into the 'park' and emerge before the cable stayed bridge... a small modification of thampan's red road. It might need to be a little sub-surface since it will have to clear an ascending Ben. ramp.

From Praja_posts

@IDS...

1. the problem with using Sadanand nagar rd. is the point where it joins OMR @ NGEF. At the best of times, it's a bad intersection and is probably going to worsen with KSRTC's plans to build a TTMC (or was it IMTC?). But for now let's just try to free up this stretch! One step at a time!

2. Not sure if the island stop is necessary... there should be enough room for ITPL/ORR buses to change lanes after passing under the cable-stayed bridge.  

3. Using ped-Xs on this stretch will require a slowing down of traffic (not a concern now though!) once the flow frees up (pelican lights?).

TM

srkulhalli's picture

Great going, onwards from here

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SB, Yes, lets work on it some more. If there is anybody else who wants to take a more active role, that will be great.

IDS: will send you a private message - you asked for it :)

On this particular design, can you compile it into a neat presentation. Doesnt need to be too elaborate, but background (an birds eye view of the area), what is the problem you are trying to solve, and your proposed solution. Once you are done, we can try sending it around, (ABIDE for sure/ others we will have to figure out the responsible people)

Suhas

pathykv's picture

K R Puram

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Dear Suhas,

In addition to ABIDe, you may include 'City Connect'.

K.V.Pathy

silkboard's picture

Create a project for this?

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So since there is tremendous interest, let us create a project specifically to take KR Puram related suggestions to BDA or whoever else we will have to.

Those willing to help - please join the project. Let us watch for a week, if the project gets 4-5 volunteers to help engage with BDA for this problem, we can start planning meetings etc.

Tangible ideas and thoughts can flow on here on this post itself - the project is to help us track on-ground work, to make site visitors aware that such a project is on. The project will essentially be a set of meetings to take these thoughts to BDA, traffic police etc.

Online-only people can also join, they will have to help with content for meetings - detailed drawings, and deeper doable engineering suggestions in summarized form.

idontspam's picture

@Suhas

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I am frustated no end with google sketchup, but I realise it took you a while as well so I will keep at it for a while before I give up. Any other free tools for drawing roads etc with widgets et al?

srkulhalli's picture

Can you join the group on ORR project

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Guys

idontspam, Transmogrifier, thampan, silkboard, blrsi, Clive VanBuerle, Naveen,  s_yajaman, t.subbabhatta, sanjayv

can you join the group on ORR - I tried to send invite, but didnt work

Suhas

Naveen's picture

Excess traffic - the real problem

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Hi All,

Agreed that proper & clear signage is useful & can matter a lot, no doubt. However, the mother of all problems is certainly excessive traffic.

I have been travelling daily by cab here in Guangzhou with conditions similar to bangalore minus the 2-wheelers, autos & plus the excellent signage on all roads plus some construction activity thrown in (they are expanding the Metro, BRT is under construction, as also few underpasses & flyovers at some important junctions).

Despite much wider roads, great pedestrian & bicycle infrastructure, during peak hours, the problems are all similar - traffic crawls & tends to be chaotic, though not as bad as in our cities due to somewhat better discipline & presence of mobile traffic squads.

The road capacity at OMR /ORR overlap is quite substantial, though signage & segregation of pedestrians is very poor. This can only improve properly & permanently if traffic volumes are reduced.

The PRR may help remove truck traffic, the Metro may reduce private vehicles, & so on. Additional road widths may actually worsen the problems there as it will be an invitation to all to continue using private vehicles when other public modes are made available.

One thing is for sure - building a Metro is only a first step. Unless steps are taken to wean people away from cars & use PT instead, these problems will continue. Limiting road availability is one step towards this.

idontspam's picture

Width control

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 Additional road widths may actually worsen the problems there 

This is a realization that has to be clear in BBMP's mind. Every 100 meters there is a change in the width of the road. It is clear reciepe for chaos any which way you look at it. There is no controlled merging and opening up of lanes. 

CKannan's picture

Design not considering the locality

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I have been thru all the suggestion and the ways to ease traffic.  But then the development on these roads not considering the locality has been the cause of the chaos.  The following consideration should be taken into account.

1. Railway station: Acts as sudden spurt of pedestrians and autorikshaw and taxi traffic.  Should we have safe movement of passengers and the regulated movement of autorickshaws.  They not only out them on risk by crossing the road to move towards benniganahalli but also others using the road.

2. The School:  Though the lowry memorial school management have shifted the main enterance from the Whitefield road to the cross road leading to A.Narayanpura, this has reduced the risk of student but have not eleminated.  It is a good call by the mangement.

3.The A.Naryanapura entry and exit:  Entry and exit of vehicle from A.N.Pura road one perpendicular to K.R.puram rly station is the maor bottle neck in the movement of traffic from whitefield road, ORR towards benniganahalli.  When the signal opens in this location usually done the by moving vehicles no proper direction and they clash directions.  The ANP entry vehicles actually block the vehicles moving towards ORR under the bridge. 

CKannan
Anithasunil's picture

I have realised that many

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I have realised that many people(like myself), coming from Outer ring road, from Marathahalli side, get down at Krpuram, and take a bus going towards ITPL. 

Few problems with this route:

1) In theory, I should be able to take a right turn at the KRPuram fluover, towards ITPL. The route from the flyover to KR railway station is always blocked, that it takes atleast 5-8 minutes to reach krpuram railway staion, although the distance is only about 400m. Waiting time at krpuram and the time taken by the bus to cross the same junction would account for another 10 minutes.

If BMTC can introduce few buses which take a right turn at the flyover, I guess it would also help commuters on ORR from marathahalli to reduce a good 20 minutes in their commute time.

It would also take some pressure off the KRPuram bus bay. Usually, this area is so crowded that people who want to change the bus occupy a good part of the left most lane as well!

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