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BIA is shoddy: Yeddyurappa

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AviationPublic Transport

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/New-Bangalore-international-airport-shoddy--Karnataka-CM/359223/

 
"It's shoddy compared to all airports in India," he said at a function at Vidhan Soudha, the State Secretariat."

 

 

[..]

 
"I will not allow such things. We need airport of international standards," Yeddyurappa said but did not elaborate what the Government proposed to do in this context."

 

Comments

s_yajaman's picture

Look into the mirror first

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I read this report in today's TOI as well.  Apparently he saw all the airports in the US and realized that BIAL is not upto his standards.

I am glad he looked around in the US.  If he had spent a bit more time looking beyond airports, he would also found that the quality of governance there would also be superior.  The roads, the interstates would also be superior.  Local revenue offices would not send people running from pillar to post for every khata transfer and other documents. 

So he would do well to set his house in order before making uncharitable comments.  The government still has not finished putting lights for the full stretch of the highway from Hebbal to BIAL exit.  He if I am not mistaken was part of the government that finally got BIAL going and could have held BIAL accountable to better standards.

Anyway - politicians are known for their double talk.  See his letter to BIAL on the completion of 100 days. 

He has also patted himself on the back enough and made claims that he has fulfilled 90% of his promises.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

shas3n's picture

Good luck yeddi!

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If Yeddi thinks BIAL sucks and we need a new airport, I wish him good luck in convincing the new investors!
-Shastri

-Shastri

idontspam's picture

Administration of international standards?

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I am sure he would have noticed the roads and traffic there as well. I hope he is taking BBMP and other authorities to task

narayan82's picture

Mr CM!....

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Unfortunately the same CM who claims BIAL is SHoddy, also suggests we Drink Milk instead of Beer, seems to olbvious to the Moral Policing in South Canara and lets his MLAs get away with Absurd Statements! Sorry, I dont really trust his opinions. 
 
His statements come just after a report that says BIAL has expanded all amenities and is getting positive reiviews. In fact, I feel someone probably missed the bus, and didnt get his share of the pie!
 
I wish he walked into Grand Central station in NYC, then I would really like to knwo what he thought of City Station.!!! Shoddy would be an understatement! 
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Vasanth's picture

Forget BIAL see BMTC,KSRTC,KPTCL, PWD & BWSSB

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Mr. Yeddi is commenting on a Private Project easily. Agreed that it is not to the world class standards, but, OK for Indian standards.

Did he make the same statement about departments of State Government in comparison with US operations which is under his control? What change has he done. Did his Government maintain the prices of KSRTC/BMTC like what Lalloo di d for Railways? Did his Government rescued us from Power Cutdowns? Did his Government rescued Bangalore from flooding?  List is endless.

Easy to comment on others without looking into oneself. 

 

s_yajaman's picture

City Station

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Narayan,

If someone entered city station, they would ask - where is the station?  There is one decrepit building that passes off as the station.  One metal detector that keeps beeping and no one seems bothered.

Have you taken the underpass from PF1 to PF10?  Unbelievable.

Don't have to go till Grand Central.  Just go to KL and visit KL Sentral station.  What a class act! 

Beer and milk was hilarious - reminded me of the old Phantom comics where he goes to a bar and asks for milk.  As though most of us wake up in the morning and say - "Should I have a swig of beer or a glass of milk". 

Maybe we all ought to start smoking 3-4 packs of cigarettes everyday to help the tobacco farmers.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Devesh's picture

BIAL Visit report - 6th September

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I completely disagree with the CM.

Check out my BIAL 6th Sep visit report

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
s_yajaman's picture

Thanks Devesh

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Devesh,

Read your complete report on your blog.  I really like your data based and unbiased reports.  You also delve into the cargo aspects of the airport - something that most of us don't.  My experience (except for May 24 when I landed on the first day of the airport) has been extremely good.  The reliability (low variation on various parameters) has been something I have observed. 

 

Based on the reports of the 100 day performance, I extrapolated BIAL's traffic at 8.83 million/year (2.42 million in 100 days).  This means that traffic has dipped a fair bit compared to last year. 

We currently are in a very uncertain environment.  Investments always suffer in such environments.  I also think it is not fair to disallow any UDF (after all we pay 225 as PSF in AAI airports) unless this UDF is over and above the PSF.

When I look at the terminal, I personally think there was space for a mezzanine in the departure area enough to seat another 500 people.  If people sit for 30 mins on an average in the waiting area, this amounts to another 12000 capacity (over 12 hours).  If only.

My other big worry is that a lot of construction is going to happen on NH-7 for the next 3(???) years.  HSR and elevated roads.  Why do I keep hearing "If only" in my head.  The "if only" referring to the lost time from 2005 to 2008.

Regards,

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

BIA cannot even be compared to Karachi or Colombo

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While i do not doubt that BIA is much better than HAL, it is no where in comparision to even Karachi International Airport or nearby Colombo's Bandaranaike for that matter.
 
One has to just see the pics on Jinnah International Airport and Colombo's to even tell you how it looks compared to namma BIA.
 
On a lighter note, rephrasing Shri Katta-avaru, if HAL is a buffalo shed, the qualitative improvement BIA managed to do is to become a cow shed.
Devesh's picture

Srivatsa ......

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Based on the reports of the 100 day performance, I extrapolated BIAL's traffic at 8.83 million/year (2.42 million in 100 days).  This means that traffic has dipped a fair bit compared to last year.

Regional traffic has totally collapsed with the advent of BIAL. Airlines had predicted a 35% drop in bookings, coupled with the fare increases, it is all but wiped out.

Which I why I proposed BIAL look to partner AAI for HAL. The traffic that is being lost is not helping BIAL. So why not consider overcoming the location disadvantage by this partnership.

I also think it is not fair to disallow any UDF (after all we pay 225 as PSF in AAI airports) unless this UDF is over and above the PSF.

The UDF is over and above the PSF. PSF is charged at ALL airports including BIAL. The share is about Rs. 70 to terminal operator, 130 to CISF, and the 25 being 12.36% service tax on the Rs 200.

My other big worry is that a lot of construction is going to happen on NH-7 for the next 3(???) years.

I am talking to NHAI about NH-7. It is going to be a nightmare. Lets not forget that NH4 is also under construction. One of the decongestion plans is for trucks to divert at Dobbspet via NH207 on to NH7 till Hebbal and then on ORR. NHAI have proposed some alternate roads to be finished. SH104 (Bagalur) is one of them. But the convulted politics are causing a problem. One part of the road is with PWD, the other with PWD Special NH section, some other with BBMP. It is a mess.

The rest of NH207 is unusable for truck traffic till Attibele.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
silkboard's picture

Don't beat up Yeddy on this

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Shoddy may be a harsh word, but even the most balanced of us on this forum would agree that we would have been happier with a showcase of an airport. Their problem is that they picked a natural lighting based energy conserving design, and that's not visually appealing to most. Restrooms, crowded feel near the gates, no fancy facades at main entrance hall - these are the sources of that disappointment IMHO.

But the operations seem to be smoother, and gotten better. Anyway, Devesh has a much better 100-day report on BIAL, so let me not go there.

Also, Yeddy is comparing BIA to airports abroad, not in India as the original post says above. Don't say that he should look at the station, government etc and then talk about BIAL. Those are hard things to fix, not possible to do in 100 days. But its valid to have higher expectations from an airpot built by (an almost) private party.

Not sucking up to Yeddy or anything. But having seen some of this (what they say, and what gets reported), we shouldn't get carried away by the selective sound-bytes that appear in main-stream media.

However, yeah, love BIAL like many of us do, but please keep the pressure up. Remember, they have 2 more terminals and one more runway to build.

narayan82's picture

BIAL is publicity

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What evert any semi-prominent politician or prominent citizen says about BIAL gets published in the Paper, and if it is Negative Criticicsm, then its TOI's headlines!

I think, this is more of an attention seeking campaign. Had be made comments on "shoddiness" of other utilities, it would have gone unheard. Yes maybe "Shoddy" was a non-diplomatic word hence the hue and cry!

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
kbsyed61's picture

KG Bus station to be World Class!

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Mcadambi,
If I have to take the minister's comments that BIA is just like any Bus Station, I would treat it as the challenge that has been accepted from BIAL to convert the existing KG bus station to a world class facility and architecture marvel. if this is what he means, count my support for him and his policies. I do hope the minister and his bureacracy would scale upto the promises and this challenge.

kbsyed61's picture

Infy joins the Chorus.............

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Is it the reason for Shri. NM to resign from BIAL?
Read this.
" ....The airport is not up to the mark. Bangalore is a global city. Bangalore deserves better," said Infosys Director and HR chief T V Mohandas Pai on the sidelines of a function to mark the renewal of LIC group insurance of employees of the company.

"We feel let down. We feel the airport is badly designed and planned," he said observing that just because an airport was large and clean it need not necessarily mean that it is of international standards..."
rs's picture

Its very easy for the CM to

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Its very easy for the CM to say that BIAL, a private venture, is shoddy - but what about the numerous public ventures that the government has taken pride in. For example, the magic box underpasses and overpasses - while effective - are awfully constructed. I really wonder how long they will last. Already the road in the Cauvery Junction underpass is in shambles and the road over the BDA junction is caving in. The much touted Malleswaram underpass is not really complete - on either side it still looks like a construction site - but I think it has been declared open. So if anything the work done by the BBMP should be criticized first - after all, that is in his hands. I havent been to BIAL as yet but from all accounts it is functioning well. Perhaps its not much to look at - but if it works efficiently and smoothly I will be very happy - and it looks like that is the case.
Devesh's picture

Is this a SMS message to BIAL ?

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In the past we used"briefcase technology". Nowadays due to volume increase, it has become SMS = "Send Me Suitcase".

Is this political hue and cry meant for HAL or BIAL ?

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
kbsyed61's picture

Better late than never...........

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Devesh,
 Der Aye Durust Aye.........
Vasanth's picture

Infy wouldn't have commented if BIAL was in EC!!

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Top management of Infy as well as Biocon seems to be self centric and the Government seems to be dancing to their tune. If BIAL would have been in EC and if people would have commented that it is difficult to travel to EC because of Hosur Road mess and move to HAL airport or move back to BIAL, they would have played the other tune.

 Infy specifically and companies around EC is worried about the Taxi claims made by their employees.

silkboard's picture

Infy comments

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... could once again be a media spin. Mr Mohandas Pai would have said something off the record, and that is possibly getting reported as "Infy said this". Personal comments - like how he said Bangalore economy could go down by 20% due to this distant airport" (don't remember verbatim) - are personal, not Infy's.

I think that when coining headlines, media goes by selling power. NRN, Nilekani, Infy, Kris, ..., Mohandas Pai - thats perhaps the order. So depending on who says what, you may or may not see Infy in the headlines.

Just the 2 cents, since this has already become a free and loose thread :)

Ravi_D's picture

I think we all agree on one thing...

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... that prominent individuals (such as our CM) should refrain making such loose comments in public. I'm sure they know very well what they are up to. Politicians use such statements to garner attention (might be indicating a need for 'SMS' as Devesh put it!). Media uses them to sell itself. And people get carried away or get taken for a ride. A clear reflection of our body politic. Thanks, Ravi
vvr's picture

SB, I am afraid I have to disagree on two counts..

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First on Mohandas Pai of Infosys.

a. He gets this platform to spout his views because he is the CFO of INFY. VVR, the fearless leader of a 20-people company in the backwater of IT Land will have nary a microphone thrust in front of his mug.

b. Pai did not whisper his comments into someone's ears at a private party. This was no chance remark. This is at least the second time that he has expressed his views in public on this issue. He is front and center in this campaign and there is no doubt that he wants to be heard by the public.

c. We will not know for sure whether he said that the Bangalore economy will decline by 20% but it was reported in early July that he thought it will decline by 5-10%. Things must be getting difficult by the day at INFY. I am sure an outstanding manager like Pai would have modeled this to the nth degree but what I would give right ear to understand is how a 800-Rupee and 90-minute cab ride to the airport will hurt an economy that has withstood the onslaught of $300/night hotel rooms, $2000 airtickets to and from N.America, huge productivity loss due to poor civic infrastructure etc. etc. Either there really is a problem or he is making up stuff. In either case, there is something black in the lentil, as they say. It could be just loose talk coming from a respected gent.

Speaking of loose talk, I would not be as easy on Yeddy as you. It could simply be political grandstanding or as mentioned here a simpler matter of SMS. In either case the message that he sending out could easily be misinterpreted by future investors. Between the utterances of Mr. BSY and Mr. Pai, there appear to be the makings of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If that happens, it would be sad. We don't want the only difference between Kolkota and Bangalore to be the weather.

In my short life in Bangalore, I have only experienced a handful of institutions that deliver value predictably and consistently and BIAL is one of them. If BIAL is shoddy, I will gladly settle for shoddy roads, shoddy water supply, shoddy garbage collection, shoddy electricity -- you get the point.

vvr's picture

Syed, on NRN and BIAL...

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NRN resigned in October 0f 2005 and BIAL's lack of dazzle was not revealed until much later. The news reports of his resignation had references to one HDDG.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2005/oct/20murthy.htm

 

silkboard's picture

okay, got it

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My anit-mainstream media bias made me write that, these guys (Yeddy, Pai) aren't doing lose talk here.

That Mr Pai would be looking at 800 Rs per airport trip, and 90 minute cab rides - I get that too. The impact on economy could well be 5% here. This is probably the number he said back July. In that sense, a distant airport, whether it looks sexy or not, does nothing but add costs to Bangalore's IT companies, espacially the ones located as far as E-City.

It could be that we heard them loud and clear only since March this year. They may have veen opposing the airport for loner time than that.

idontspam's picture

Metro shoddy too?

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Devesh's picture

Its the productivity that costs Bangalore

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Its not the cost of the trip, but rather the loss of productivity in terms of time. Many companies in the EC, Jigani, Bommasandra corridor, even down JP Nagar, are facing a problem. Their business partners face a 2.5 hr plus cab/car ride, EACH way. Thats 5 hours out of even a stretched out 14 hour work day or 36%.

The Electronics City industries are not fools to have contributed big bucks for the BETL. Heavy traffic all over the city lowers the productivity of the city. If your company staff spend 1.5 hours in traffic each way, and put in a total of 9 hours a day, they still think they are working 12 hours. i.e. a 25% loss of productivity. You do the arithmetic and figure out what the economy is loosing.

Not that I fully agree with the "techies". The same people who whine about Bangalore, are willing to spend 1 hour in each direction on Hwy 101 in the Bay Area or on 405 in SoCal.

And I am not limiting myself to BIAL traffic. Thanks to BIAL location, the traffic on Sankey Road has gone from 1.2 lakh vehicles per day to 1.7 lakh vehicles per day. All that traffic is being funneled through Raj Bhavan road onwards.

As predicted by the Operations Research Society of India, the traffic in that corridor has doubled. It has created a major headache for people who have to commute or visit anything north / west of Minsk Square. On any given evening, one does not know whether it will take 15~20 minutes to go from Minsk Square to Basaveshwara Circle or will it take 1 hour. I have experienced the 45 mins to 1 hour too many times already. It is already having negative effects on the businesses along that corridor.

Bangalore, and most of India is not a major transit location that demands a large centralised airport which facilitates flight to flight connectivity. BIAL officials admitted to me that less than 10% (i.e. 5% in each direction) of TOTAL traffic is transit. Even after KF sets up Bangalore as one of its hubs. Instead the diverse nature of the passengers demand the need for multiple smaller (relatively speaking) airports.

Professor Richard De Neufville is an internationally renowned airport and air transport expert, at MIT. In fact his design manuals are part of BIAL library.

A quote from his paper on Secondary airports "Until recently, multi-airport systems were predominantly a feature of metropolitan areas with the highest levels of originating traffic. Simply put, only the highest levels of locally originating traffic economically justified the existence of second or third airports serving substantial traffic. (Note that high levels of transfer traffic do not promote multi-airport systems, since transfer passengers want to have their connections at the airport at which they arrive. This is a reason that Atlanta only has one commercially significant airport.) Exceptions to this rule have been few; mostly associated with situations such as Buenos Aires in which the primary airport was incapable of handling international or intercontinental traffic, and thus a second airport with longer, wider runways was necessary."

Incidentally, Buenos Aires has a situation just like what I am suggesting for Bangalore, and what  is already sucessfully operating in Brazil (both Rio and Sao Paulo). The city's air traffic expanded byond the capacity of the existing in-city airport so a large international + domestic airport was constructed outside the city. Unlike Bangalore, the in-city airport was kept open (or re-opened following public pressure), and today both airports in each city are functioning sucessfully. If countries in our same economic group of BRIC and Argentina are doing this, why do we need to compare ourselves with Europe which has primarily transit traffic and a pre-existing good public transport network.

Check out some of his airport papers. http://ardent.mit.edu/air.... In particular "Multi Airport Systems in the Era of No-Frills Airlines" (http://ardent.mit.edu/air...)  and "The Future of Secondary Airports : Nodes of a parallel air transport network" (http://ardent.mit.edu/air...). They will make some very interesting reading. If nothing else, help you pass the time, on one of your many commutes to and from BIAL :)

and lastly VVR, Mohan has risen to a position by lots of hard work, imagination, perseverance and, yes, may be some good luck. Media might go to him today, becuase of his position, but I knew him 25 years ago, when we were both part of Rotaract, and even then, he was a well balanced thinker, today even more so. He is very committed to a variety of causes and very focussed on the productivity, whether of Infy, or Bangalore, or India. You have to meet Mohandas Pai and experience the person he is.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
narayan82's picture

Metro Took us for ride!!!

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Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
idontspam's picture

405 & 101

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The thing about orderly traffic & defensive driving is there arent too many people who make your 1 hour drive to 1.5 hours but cutting in, going on the wrong side, breaking the smooth flow at junctions. The worst I have seen especiially on 210 is driving on the shoulder as soon as you sight your exit about 4, 5 car lengths down. By jutting your nose in front of my car you and I both will take longer to get out of the mess. by blocking the oncoming traffic and trying to cut into in front, you and I both take ages to clear the junction. This is the productivity loss by disorderly traffic. 101, 405, 880, 210, 110 they are all true driving time which points to a lack of contriol on private vehicles, but we arent there yet and our public transport is far better than a BART or MUNI. we need to optimize our drive time and flow. OpExcellence is the word
idontspam's picture

A ride by the BMRC

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Right narayan, We are in the same boat now as BIA. We were shown stuff which will put us on the world map and then taken down the garden path.Will we end up letting them build this? I dont hear much from the "Open HAL" on this nor any comments on shoddiness by BSY.

Leads me to something I read the other day about how effectively one can use design as a part of differentiating and building customer loyalty. iPod was not the first mp3 player but it beat the crap out of competition. 

narayan82's picture

BIAL vs BMRC

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Idontspam,

One more point - BIAL has stuck to the artistic renditions it showed us at the begining. So why we couldnt bring out our comments then, when it was possible to change I cannot understand. But only after the entire money has been spend we want to give them our opinions. Its quite absurd.

Now, again Metro, hasnt been constructed yet so there is still scope for change. But the the question - how do we strike the balance between aesthetics and functionality - and which do we prefer over the other for the Metro?

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Vasanth's picture

My first visit to BIAL

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Yesterday I went to give a farewell to one of my friend travelling to US. This was my first visit to BIAL. We took the Zoom airport express from Kattriguppe. There is option for Exclusive or shared cab. We took exclusive for 6 members. 6 members exactly fit in their Tata vehicle. If we take exclusive, they will directly take us to the airport from home otherwise, with shared option they will take us to their nearest office, one in KR Road and other in Indiranagar. We left at 8:15 PM and reached at 9:30 PM. Driver was really 'zooming' with sudden cuts, sudden brakes and literally was overtaking most of the vehicles, especially 'Vayu Vajras'. I was concerned about the other vehicles on the road the way in which he was 'zooming'. Almost all other renault taxis and vayu vajras were driving with discipline.

I personally felt that the personal vehicles have reduced a lot near the airport compared to HAL. Reaching HAL in a city taxi was almost taking 45 minutes to 1 hour from Kattriguppe. Travel from entrance of HAL Airport Road to HAL Airport was always messy clubbed with the ITPL traffic and personal vehicle drop offs.

Felt that the departure is much easier here since there is no baggage check at the entrance as well as with multiple enterances. Airline counters were just like Boston airport. There are less people coming to airport to give the farewell. There is no facility for them whatsoever which causes lot of inconvenience. There could have been small lounge area with admission fees of say 50 rupees. Yesterday when we were saying bye near the glass area, few security personnel came nearby and said to goaway behind. These security personnel were not professional and were behaving like BSF or Military Jawans with very slang Hindi what you call as 'Gaali'. Visitors who come for farewell has to stand in 'windy' or 'rainy' weather.

kbsyed61's picture

How much of 2.5 hr? !

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Devesh,

 W.r.t your quote "Its not the cost of the trip, but rather the loss of productivity in terms of time. Many companies in the EC, Jigani, Bommasandra corridor, even down JP Nagar, are facing a problem. Their business partners face a 2.5 hr plus cab/car ride, EACH way. Thats 5 hours out of even a stretched out 14 hour work day or 36%."

 Out of this 2.5 hr cab drive , how much is that spend on reaching NH7?

 

srkulhalli's picture

It does not happen only in India

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Mid Train collision in Los Angles

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080913/ap_on_re_us/train_collision

I thought there should be sufficient technology by now to prevent mid-train collisions. This kind of shows terrible incompetence, even if it is in the U. S of A.

 Suhas

 PS> Am not sure where to post these, apologies if this distracts from the main topic

Suhas

vvr's picture

Devesh, apropos of Mr. Pai.....

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I do not mean any disrespect. But I do sense disingenuousness on his part. Even Mr NRN who I would gladly induct into my pantheon of gods, has been known now and then to indulge in double talk (e.g. several years ago, he made a statement about the social responsibility of IT companies to pay corporate taxes while his company was a beneficiary of a tax-holiday regime; more recently he lamented the fact that the IT industry is sucking all other engineering fields dry while his own INFY was offering 35K starting salaries to fresh Civil Engg. grads coming out of top schools).

Even gods have known to be duplicitous, as we all know.

I am skeptical about the claims that business in the Bangalore area will decline by anywhere from 5 to 30% (going by different sources, rumors and innuendos) because of BIAL. Bangalore-based businesses (led by Mr Mohan Pai's INFY) have responded to the ballooning cost of doing business here (e.g. payroll which accounts for perhaps a third to half of revenues is increasing at an average of 10-25%) by going up the value chain. So, I find it incredulous that they (especially those on the cutting edge of technology) would be stymied enough by a 1600-Rupee, 3-hour round-trip to the airport (taken on an average once a month per employee) to suffer such a severe decline in business.

I am with you when you say that it is productivity that costs Bangalore. Beyond that we diverge completely on the root causes. While you point to the connectivity to BIAL, I think about the several hundreds of thousands of IT and other workers who spend an average of 1.5-3 hours everyday on the road in conditions that render them unsuitable to pursue any serious intellectual activity (I think there is a huge difference between spending 45 minutes on 101 between Palo Alto and SFO and an hour and a half between Vijay Nagar and Ulsoor on non-roads -- the latter experience will make any human end up like a wet noodle).  So, tackling the commute of the 5K  air travellers a day is attacking the 3rd or the 4th bar on the Pareto chart when it comes to productivity.   

santsub's picture

BIAL vs BMRC

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Narayan - As far as not raising the issue on BIALs design is concerned I have to say we did...

 when they released their prototypes, models and walkthroughs -  I should say the it was very evident that many had raised voice but there was nobody to listen to it. I have personally written to BIAL but their mail ID either did not work or nobody checked it. Their feedback form was almost nonfunctional - But I think we should concentrate on both functionality and Aesthecity be it BIAL or BMRC. I only hope some one at BMRC is interested to listen to us. 

 

Born Bangalorean - love Bangalore and I want to see what I can do for the city in particular and our state to make it a better place.

narayan82's picture

Re:Santsub

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  • Born Bangalorean - love Bangalore and I want to see what I can do for the city in particular and our state to make it a better place.

I cudnt agree with you more on that - I too am Bangalore, by birth and generation and would love to see my city unfold into a better place!

To me personally, BIAL isnt UnAesthetical - its minimilistic rather than grand and I quite like that.Considering there is a Aeropolis coming up and a million other buildings competing for skyline around it, I think soon the whole area would evolve into a more visulaly stimulating area. I feel in such a case, a functional airport would be a huge advantage considering the growth rate. Its a quiestion of Form Vs Function.

Of course we do kep saying why not make it both. Unfortuantely we are constrained by budget and time to not being able to implement both to thier ultimate limits, hence we compromise on one.  After all, Aesthetics are opinions and you are never going to be in a win-win situation.

Now w.r.t BMRC, what worries more is what they are doing by showing us somehting just to get us excited then shelve the idea. Thats like showing a child a candy and then givng him boiled veggies! Its like tricking you slyly....not a nice feeling.

As a city, such big projects I personally dont feel need to be eye catching landmarks. They must be ergonomical, useful, good quality and can definately break away from the government stereotype building look. The building can be built in the same timeframe and budget, with some intelligent use of materials, use of local talent to add the final coating of beauty (Murals, art.....etc).

IMPHO (my personal humble opinion) the city has its landmarks coming up anyway by private and govt bodies, and we need to tone it down a bit so we dont over kill it on the concrete, glass and aluco bond and give it some breating space!

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
santsub's picture

Re Narayan

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I completely agree with your thoughts Narayan :) - The only complaint however I will have with BIAL will be to make it visitor friendly too - if they can make breezy covered roof  hangout area (outside) for visitors with some good snack bars etc (entry free pls) it will make it more friendly - again which I think they will in the 2nd phase.

 I agree that we should use local art and murals for all our new landmarks atleast the public owned ones. That way we will have more variety and preserve our culture, art and heritage by promoting our own artists and builders. 
 

 

amaku's picture

Devesh -- Productivity

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Devesh,

Not knowing Mr Pai of INFY, I'm not going to comment about his bona-fides. However, I find his comments rather curious.

OK I'll grant him that the commute time to BIAL costs Bangalore in terms of productivity. How about the daily commute to work for thousands of his own employees? Is he suggesting that the commute to BIAL costs more? If that is the case, I’d like to get a whiff of whatever he’s smoking. BTW, there are plenty of not-so-vocal businessmen who do not live in or near E-city and have had to endure similar commute times to the old HAL airport. While I’m no fan of the current location of BIAL, I firmly believe its time to move on and make BIAL the best it can be.

On a similar note, I wish our esteemed C.M. Mr. BSY would focus on getting his own house in order, fix the miserable infrastructure, and make a serious dent in the rampant corruption that pervades all of government.

I sincerely hope this article is fact-based and true. I believe HAL would be much better off with such a focus.

http://www.livemint.com/2008/09/0415...r-civ.html?d=1

--amaku

narayan82's picture

Santsub....(Contd)

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Santsub,

I too agree that BIAL isnt very visitor friendly. I think that is an area we can push for as it is not much of a modification just merely the investment of maybe 1-2 crores. In fact I was told that Cafe Coffee Day was to start a "Viewing Cafe" on one of the roundabouts, still to be implemented. In fact I would be only too happy to start my own cafe near the runway :)

Meanwhile,

 I think HAL is quietly enjoying its privacy away frm all the commerical airliners. They seem to testing a lot of aircrafts! And maybe this is what can lead to Bangalore's Aviation Boom - when we start a manafacturing plant as Amaku gave a link to.

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Arvind Jadhav on PPP

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In the BMLTA summit, both Shri Prof A Ravindra of IIM-B and Shri Arvind Jadhav, Principal Secretary for the Infrastructure Development Department, GoK mentioned PPP venture with BIAL was not satisfactory and was not according to their expectations.

Shri Jadhav then mentioned the need to account for "economic rate of return", viz productivity of the society, jobs, growth, economic development and so on which are not quite "monetisable". The private promoters of BIAL are looking for profit maximisation before delivering economic utility maximisation. That is why BIAL gave us a bare minimal airport, or a sad excuse for an "international" airport. I will take the pain of mentioning again that Karachi and Colombo have far better airports.

Shri Jadhav then highlighted an example from New Delhi which says how PPP is not an excuse. The New Delhi police had a large vacant land near the Rashtrapati Bhavan. All the police required was a simple 20,000 sq ft of office space. The rest of the 160,000 sq ft of built area would have been of no practical use for them.

The New Delhi police then proposed to go in for PPP and "unlock" the value of the excess office space by "commericialising" it with the private sector. This does not bode well for any society.

Imagine if the GoK needed less space in Vidhana Soudha and leased out the excess space in it to private parties! We seem to be blurring the lines between common property and private property in an irrational manner if we proceed on the lines above.

Thankfully, for capital intensive and low return projects like namma metro, the GoK and GoI can go in for soft loans from external agencies like Japan Bank et al. All that the GoK and GoI can do is focus on transportation solutions - which will bring in better productivity and economic growth and hence a large tax base.

The bottom line is simple - infrastructure such as airports, metro, mono are all capital intensive and give lesser returns. The Government has ability to foot the bill because it is not hardpressed to earn profits unlike the private sector. For the Government, economic development is a long term priority than satisfying the needs of shareholders.

 

bialterminal's picture

re:It does not happen only in India

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suhas,

USA is infact behind in train technology compared to Europe, Japan. Korea (and probably India) etc. Incompetency seems a likely cause at this stage.

What to note though would be the competency of the emergency rescue system with emergency responders arriving within minutes. An interesting thing to watch would be how quickly corrective steps will be implemented and what they would be.  

idontspam's picture

Air traffic to be out of AAI hands

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Government plans are understood to be well on their way towards slimming AAI's responsibilities.

...

Separating air navigation from overall airport management would not come a day too soon. This was recommended by the Naresh Chandra panel

...

The ministry asked consultancy firm KPMG to suggest the way forward. It recommended: Taking air navigation away from AAI.

kbsyed61's picture

Pot calling the kettle BLACK...

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Mcadambi,

 With respect to your quoting of "..In the BMLTA summit, both Shri Prof A Ravindra of IIM-B and Shri Arvind Jadhav, Principal Secretary for the Infrastructure Development Department, GoK mentioned PPP venture with BIAL was not satisfactory and was not according to their expectations. ..."

 In any PPP, the ONUS is on the public representtaive/partner to see that the partneship results in value addition and meets the objectives.

 In BIAL project also, the public partner's role so far has been not been very transparent and in puclic domain to say that the private partners are impediment in the full realization of the project. Coming months should reveal the truth about the role played by our public partners in BIAL. For full 3 years or so, there was not a single statement was made by these bureacrats about they being not fully satisfied by the project deliverables. Even in the courts, nothing has been stated to this fact from GOK or GOI side. Rather they went along with the position of BIAL stand. Either they lied in the court or they are lying now for SMSs.

 From the statements it seems, going forward Karnataka would see less PPP than anticipated and planned. Again same old PWD style projects and buildings.

 Again, a lost oppurtunity and putting personal choices becomes the priority and order of the day. These bureacrats are losing some thing vital for future infrastructure projects. BIAL could be subject of postmortem and research for truth. They need to accept their shortcomings/bunglings they committed in BIAL and correct thse follies in the future projects. Even now BIAL is not a lost case. There is still room to rectify the shortcomings, if they really desire and put people's interest first. For that they need to be truthfull and sincere.

 Otherwise, this is like pot calling the kettle black.

 Syed

 

Devesh's picture

Time to reach NH7 really does not matter

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 Syed it would probably take 1:45 to 2 hours. But the gist of my statement was prductivity loss due to the long commute, and its resultant impact on businesses in the southern part of Bangalore.

If we had to spend more money to open a second airport, I too would question the wisdom. Here I am questioning the closing of existing infrastructure.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

VVR, loss of productivity.......

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 I am with you when you say that it is productivity that costs Bangalore. Beyond that we diverge completely on the root causes. While you point to the connectivity to BIAL, I think about the several hundreds of thousands of IT and other workers who spend an average of 1.5-3 hours everyday on the road in conditions that render them unsuitable to pursue any serious intellectual activity (I think there is a huge difference between spending 45 minutes on 101 between Palo Alto and SFO and an hour and a half between Vijay Nagar and Ulsoor on non-roads

VVR, I never said BIAL was the root cause of loss of productivity. The overall traffic is to blame. And sorry, but 1 hour on 101 in SFO or 1 hour in Bangalore, is 1 hour. It does not matter.

My point though you have made in another way. Many of the "techies" are quite hypocritical when it come to traffic.

Its not the 1000 or 1600 cost. It is the 2.5 hours.

Talking of traffic and infrastructure, I loved Dr. Subramnya's comment -- Adding road space to tackle increasing is like adding a larger waisted pant to tackle obesity problems.If you observe, HAL shut down, and the vacuum on airport road was instantly occupied by the ITPL traffic.

We have to create pockets of self sustaining clusters of live-work-play. If you observe, in the US, people tend to look for jobs close to home, or move their home close to their jobs. Similarly to the cluster approach, by having two airports, we reduce cross town traffic. We are already doing it to an extent with train traffic.

I fully agree with you on  focus. But please remember, it is 30,000 passenger trips, and about 25,000 employee trips. A total of 55,000 trips.

By having a high cost structure, airport included, Bangalore is pricing itself out of competition. How soon before we expect the current miniscule trend of outsourcing from Bangalore and other high cost Indian cities to Tier 2 and lower Indian cities, and to lower cost countries, to turn in to a major exodus.

When Mohan and me say it will hurt Bangalore's economy, the BIAL airport with its 5 star cost and feature approach does not help. It is not the only factor, but it does play an important part, becuase it is an important part of the city's infrastructure.

I am sure like me you go to a 5 star only when absolutely required, preferring a Darshini or some other value for money eatery most times.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

IDS Traffic discipline is not an infrastructure issue

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 IDS, fully agree with your thoughts. However, traffic discipline starts at home, and like it or not, the Bangalore Police needs to get aggressive on enforcement. See the traffic seminar thread.

I love seeing statements from senior Police officials. They all have these multi-year, multi-crore mega project boondoggles. If you observe, enforcement is NEVER mentioned.

In the duration of those multi-year, they would have completed their stint, and transferred, or retired.

I cannot blame them fully. The whole "hafta" racket involves politicians as well. It is so deeply entrenched that any officer attempting to take it on, will loose his post in a jiffy.

I have suggested N number of times to Mr. Praveen Sood, to empower the volunteer wardens to report traffic violations and force the police to issue tickets. He will get 3000 volunteers within the first 15 days, and his revenues will baloon to the point he can hire another full complement of police force.

He cannot implement my idea.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
idontspam's picture

Infrastructure vs policing

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Devesh, Improper Infrastructure enables chaos and also acts as an excuse when caught. We have talked about the 3E's in detail in other posts. They are all interlinked. 

Now, what you have mentioned about corruption and how to deal with it is the point we have been brushing under the carpet and I agree with. All our solutions are assuming that the people below Mr Sood/Mr Subramanya are capable of executing them. I have mentioned earlier a generational change is needed if we have to get out of the mess. The current people have to be retired and a fresh team has to start on fresh principles which need to be laid before they are even hired. That is why the challenge would be for these good knowledgeable men at the helm to set the seeds of future change by making the required changes in the underlying system. Singapore inductions, training on IRC and international standards, the ASJ test and whatever else.

 

What they achieve in their tenure will define how our city progresses

 

BBMP has to be included in that as well. RTO never figures anywhere all the while putting idiots on the roads

Devesh's picture

Syed .... Public representatives sometimes do not have the power

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In any PPP, the ONUS is on the public representtaive/partner to see that the partneship results in value addition and meets the objectives.

Syed, sometimes, the public representatives do not have the power, sometimes their will is thwarted, and sometimes they do not have the will.

Just using BIAL as an example. GoI and GoK together have 5 directors on the board. Siemens itself, has 5 directors. So the public reps are outvoted.

We all know how netas function, and sometimes they are influenced to function. Most PPP projects have bureacrats as the public reps. It is easy for the neta to issue instructions to them.

Sometimes, the bureaucrat does not have the desired domain knowledge. Lets face it. As knowledgeable as Chief Secretary or the Infrastructure secretary are, they are not specialists in airports. But they are 2 of the 5 directors from government side.

We really do not know what is happening in the board meetings. Under RTI can we request for minutes of the meetings ?

And talking about objectives. This is precisely what Mr. Jadhav was talking about. Public needs are dynamic. Private consortium wants the original objective to remain static. BIAL is a classic case of the needs changing during the construction of the project itself, forget the earlier planning, tendering, and negotiation time.

It goes back to our criticism of government failing to provide for the needs of Bangalore. This is a classic case of dynamic needs. When I move to a given locality, I have done it based on the situation at that moment in time. But, later as my needs change, I expect government to meet them.

What mechanism do we put in place to address this conflict of dynamic and static. I think that is a far greater challenge.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

Amaku ... let us use infrastructure to the max

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BTW, there are plenty of not-so-vocal businessmen who do not live in or near E-city and have had to endure similar commute times to the old HAL airport. While I’m no fan of the current location of BIAL, I firmly believe its time to move on and make BIAL the best it can be.

Amaku, I concur with you about the loss of productivity in terms of commute. Also the corruption.

If you observe, in the US, people are far more likely to change their home or job location to better match each other, and to reduce the commute.

In Europe, which has a long history, of public transport, along with a high tax high spend nanny-mommy approach, people have the PT system and therefore are more static in their home location.

India is catching up, but we have a while to go. We have to also consider integrated townships i.e. live-work-play. New Delhi has something similar. Not anywhere close to acceptable, but the various colonies are quite self sustaining. Thanks to traffic, Bangalore is being forced in to that situation.

However, I disagree with you on the two airport deal. We should not repeat past mistakes. We have the ability to be the first city in India, that offers a choice (albietly partial) to air travellers. Something that is being done on a limited basis in bus and rail already. Also, two airports will reduce traffic through the city centre. Did you get a chance to read the Neufville articles I referenced in my post http://praja.in/bangalore... ?

It makes some very interesting reading. Apart from the traffic and network issues, two airports will also introduce a modicum of competition, which if nothing, will keep both terminal operators honest.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

Customs shifting all operations to BIAL ... finally

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http://aviation.deveshaga...

Back in June, I led a high level delegation of industries on a visit of the air cargo facilities run by Menzies Aviation Bobba Group, and Air India Singapore Airport Terminal Services at Bengaluru International Airport. (Read that article).

We observed that the Indian Customs Authority did not have a full presence at BIAL airport, despite earlier assurances to Industry in March 2008. To correct the situation, the Bangalore Chamber of Industry and Commerce (BCIC), made a representation to the local Customs office as well as to the Chairman of the Central Board of Excise and Customs to correct the lacuna.

The Chamber received the following letter from Customs recently, and it is self explanatory.

OFFICE OF THE COMMISSIONER OF CUSTOMS,
CENTRAL REVENUES BUILDING, QUEEN’S ROAD, BANGALORE – 560001.

TRADE FACILITY No. 47/2008
Dated: 11/09/2008

Sub: Shifting of the Operations to the Air Cargo Complex at Devenahalli. Reg

Kind attention of the Importers, Exporters, Custom House Agents and all the concerned with the trade is hereby invited to the necessity of shifting the operations (Assessment, Bonds, Audit, Service Centre, Bank, etc.) to the Air Cargo Complex at Devenahalli, which are at present carried out from the old Air Cargo Complex premises near HAL Airport.

In this Connection, the trade is hereby informed that all such operations will be transferred to the new premises in a phased manner by middle of next month. To begin with, the Service Centre operations will be gradually shifted. All the major operations from the Service Centre will be available only from the new premises from 18th of September, 2008. Only two terminals will be made available at the old premises for facilitating Query reply and amendments. Hence, all the concerned are hereby advised to gradually shift their operations including payment of duty to the new Air Cargo Complex at Devanahalli accordingly.

Assessment and all other official functions currently operated from the old premises near HAL Airport are likely to be shifted to the new Air Cargo Complex at Devanahalli by the middle of next month.

A.K. KAUSHAL
COMMISSIONER OF CUSTOMS

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

IDS, there is no substitute for enforcement

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Devesh, Improper Infrastructure enables chaos and also acts as an excuse when caught. We have talked about the 3E's in detail in other posts. They are all interlinked. 

I agree with you completely. I also agree that there is no excuse for the lack of enforcement. Like it or not, the traffic police have to get draconian with their enforcement. To gain credibility, they have to do it 7 days a week, at all times. The current system of suddenly waking-up, enforcing rules for 2 or 3 days, making their quota, and then letting things return to shoddy, does not help their credibility.

I look at Mumbai vs. Delhi vs. Bangalore. It is plain and simple enforcement. The Mumbai traffic police will carve you a new bodily orifice if you break the law, which explains why every motorist in Mumbai follows lane discipline and hits their brakes on a yellow signal, while everyone in Delhi and Bangalore speeds up.

All our solutions are assuming that the people below Mr Sood/Mr Subramanya are capable of executing them.

I know both these officers well, and have interacted with them extensively. I can vouch for their sincerity and capability. It is the overall system which is rotted out thanks to corruption and the over-influence of even petty "netas", and prevents even these senior most officers from doing their duty.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
narayan82's picture

devesh & Others...

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I found a map on the ATC space above India. Would you/anyone be able to let me know where I can get a more recent verisonb - or this (2005) the most recent available?

 ATC Map

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
kbsyed61's picture

A different view of BIAL-HAL tussle !

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Came accross this very interesting blog posting. I was bowled over by the title itself.

Courtsey - kishorekumar62.wordpress.com

http://kishorekumar62.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/why-bangaloreans-merrily-score-same-side-goals-on-the-bial-issue/

"Why Bangaloreans merrily score same-side goals on the BIAL issue!

"I have been watching with bemusement the spectacle of leading lights of Bangalore merrily running down their own brand new airport. Why do they do this? Why do they not take pride in the fact that Bangalore is only one of two cities in the country which have the privilege of discarding old baggage and getting a brand new airport? ..."


 

amaku's picture

Devesh -- use of Infrastructure

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Devesh,

I completely agree with you wrt full utilization of infrastructure. Our disagreement is with what would constitute optimal usage of that infratructure.

 

Let's try and look at the two options logically:

1. Reopen HAL airport for civilian use

Pros:

· Central in-city location

· Competition for BIAL

· Reduced commute time to airport (& loss in productivity) for employers in & around e-city

· Offers choice to air travellers, first city in India to blaze the two-airport trail

Cons:

· BIAL expansion unlikely to happen or will at least be delayed

· Connectivity to BIAL will not improve (no pressure on govt.)

· Development around north Bangalore will slow down

· Bangalore will have two passable (at best) airports

2. Return HAL to its original purpose

Pros:

· Civilian aircraft development – a long stated goal of HAL

· MRO facility for airlines – a long stated goal of HAL

· More distributed growth & development across the city

· Govt. will be forced (hopefully) to address connectivity issues

· BIAL will be forced (public pressure & built-in incentives) to address all its shortcomings.

Cons:

· BIAL ‘monopoly’ continues

· Productivity loss for IT, BPO employers in & around e-city

· Lcation – outside the city

 

I’m personally convinced that option 2 will contribute significantly more to the overall growth of Bangalore, and more importantly, to the betterment of her citizens


--amaku

Devesh's picture

Amaku, what about a limited role of HAL airport

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Good comparison of pros and cons. A few points I am not in complete agreement with, but will leave them for now.

How about the Pro-Con analysis of my proposal for a limited operation of HAL airport. Say a cap of 3 million passengers which can be increased by 0.25 million every year.

Airlines have to bid for their slots and the bid money goes to BIAL. 

Right now, BIAL is really not listening to government or people. Will the competition not force it to listen more. For sure, they will not risk jeopardising their concession.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
kishorekumar62's picture

Can the domestic departure lounge be made bigger?

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From my experience in flying domestic out from BIAL, I find that after you clear security check, the airport suddenly becomes cramped. Before that, there is plenty of space.

Looks to me like there is a lot of empty space in front of security check, on the mezzanine floor, that can be better used, i.e. move the securiy check booths forward so that space becomes available inside the departure lounge.

Also, if that big round shop in  the middle of domestic departure can be ripped up and thrown away, that will simply open up the departure lounge dramatically! But, BIAL will loose revenue, which means they will increase UDF I guess?

 Of course, the best way to increase space on the mezzanine will be to extend the whole mezzanine forward to overhang the checkin lines below. That means intrusive civil construction. This may be better than building a new, "low cost" terminal.

kishorekumar62's picture

Same-side goals!

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This is what I call same-side goals! The Chief Minister of Karnataka running-down the new airport built in his own state capital!

In this case, the reality is so different from what he has projected. The airport is perfectly nice, clean and operating smoothly.

This is a clear mis-information campaign, actively supported by the media. What for? Your guess is as good as mine.

 

kishorekumar62's picture

An idea to stop BIAL bashing

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I have an idea to stop BIAL bashing.

The trouble is with the name. The name "BIAL" commands no respect from anybody. Change the name to "Dr. Rajkumar International Airport" and watch the tide turn!

Can anyone, least of all an elected representative of Kannadigas, dare abuse the airport after that? No Sir, no way. 

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