Stratified BMTC service & Making Losses in addition to deficient service (Contd...)

Hi ,

I second your opinion Mr Vasanth. I have been thinking on the same lines. We have to explore how is it lucrative for BMTC to run VOLVOS.....may be its the ordering process of these so called hi tech ones are money making machines for 'OUR' babus.

What I understand from the press report www.deccanherald.com/content/12445/bmtc-effects-modest-increase.html. hike is only above Rs. 10. In most, Rs. 7 stages they have not increased the fare, but in one route, Kalyan Nagar-KR Puram RS, I had to pay Rs. 9 instead of the Rs. 7 that I had paid before the fare hike.

I had these doubts from the time I have started using BMTC. I thought I put these here in the time of fare hike when we feel at least for sometime the hike is too much. Is there only Rs. 3, 5, and 7 tickets. Are there no Rs. 4 and 6  tickets? How does some one know exact fare to a destination and/or the stages?

I made an attempt here

http://bangalore.praja.in/blog/vasanthkumar-mysoremath/2009/04/02/stratified-bmtc-service-making-profits-with-defic#comment-13375

Srivathsa

VKM Sir,

Thanks for sharing this information. I think it is fit case to file the RTI and ask BMTC about 1000 ETMs whose SW is not compatible to read the smart card. Let me know if you need help with filing the RTI.

Syed

 VKM Sir,

I don’t know how you can make the claim that Petrol is subsidized in India.

According to this article from the economic times dated 13 July 2009, the Minister of State for Petroleum and Natural Gas, Jitin Prasada has said that almost half of the retail price of petrol comprises taxes and duties.

economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/Economy/Indicators/Taxes-duties-comprise-50-of-petrol-price-in-Delhi-Minister/articleshow/4772379.cms

Please see this article in the Deccan Herald. The Mercedes Benz was provided on a trial basis without any cost to KSRTC.  www.deccanherald.com/content/9653/ksrtcs-merc-mercy-buzz-off.html. This fact was also reported in a number of other newspapers.

If the buses are not comfortable KSRTC probably may choose not to induct them in the fleet and stick to Volvos for their premium services.

By the way many private operators are running Volvo services quite profitably on interstate routes and I don't see why it should be any different for KSRTC since they have very similar fare structures.  And I haven't seen any reports to the contrary.

 VKM>>>> When will the KSRTC/BMTC learn to use JNNURM/public money for providing some relief to the aam aadmis?

I want to point out that JNNURM has some strict guidelines on the types of buses that can be procured. It seems that the state RTCs need to buy low floor and semi low floor buses and the old Parisara Vahinis won’t qualify. There is a lot of information available in the JNNURM website.  jnnurm.nic.in/nurmudweb/FOB/Funding_of_Buses.htm

I don’t want to reproduce the material from that website but it clearly indicates that "at least 20 % of the buses procured under JnNURM for all million plus cities should be low floor buses".

Here is a link to the Urban bus specifications from the same site. urbanindia.nic.in/moud/programme/ut/urbanbus_spec.pdf

Yes, it is equally immoral whether in Road transport or Railways.

The BMTC ordinary bus fares are 3 to 4 times more than in Tamilnadu as there is healthy competion between Govt. & private buses and private operators are not subsidised, but have to bear all costs including the 'hidden' costs.  The commuters have choice at most bus stations and take the best bus available by waiting for a few minutes more as the frequencies are very high.

K.V.Pathy

The same old discussion has resurfaced again. Some are questioning BMTC (& now KSRTC also) for providing differential services, whilst leaving out all other areas that have similar "stratification", as it is being referred to.

For starters, is it not true that we have such stratification just about anywhere that we see ? What about jobs ? Why have differential pay scales at all ? Why not pay everyone the same, irrespective of what they do ? What about housing ? Why have different types - HIG, MIG & LIG ? Why not have just one class of housing for all ?

By this sort of reasoning, perhaps it is being suggested by some here that we should have our own form of communism that almost the whole world has now abandonned.

I think one cannot singularly question BMTC (& KSRTC) in this manner. Chennai transport has now ordered 100 new volvos for city services, & other cities in TN (such as Coimbatore & Madurai) are also following suit. Should they be charging the same fares as on all other ordinary buses on these new air-conditioned buses since the "aam aadmis", or those that claim to speak for them see it as "stratification" ?

That Bangalore has too many vehicles on the streets is well known - because there are too many rich vehicle owners. Hence, the volvos came in here faster than other cities, breaking the age old belief that one class suits all for city transport. Initially, it was BMTC that was targeted, but now KSRTC is also being targeted without any basis or justification.

One can see KSRTC's Airavaata services to chennai & other places - these volvos are going full all the time - I have been to chennai & mangalore quite a few times in the recent past & have always found these buses going full.

What about private operators ? Why spare them ? Why should they run volvos at all ? Why not have only one type of ordinary buses even with private inter-city operators ? By the reasoning put up here, KSRTC should not touch any volvos & BMTC must not run any other types of buses other than the age-old, uncomfortable ones. Also, it is being suggested that no new type of services (such as Big-10s, etc) must be introduced at all since some imagine that the aam aadmis do not need them !

Many of the city's volvos are running full even at late hours (I have used quite a few in the recent past, around 9PM), whilst it is being repeatedly claimed that all are running empty. If some are indeed running empty, they may be stopped or services reduced as deemed fit - this is subject to experience with operations & there is always room for refinement.

A blanket assumption by a few that see such attempts by BMTC /KSRTC as unwelcome & seize the opportunity to criticize means nothing - there are many that welcome these efforts & are thankful that such comfortable services have been made available - I for one.

As regards cleanliness in ordinary buses, this had already been discussed before - the buses can only be as clean as we keep them. Do not expect BMTC or KSRTC to clean each bus every trip or every hour. They can only clean them once a day. So, the assumption by some that "aam aadmis" do not get clean buses are also incorrect. Aam aadmis or whoever are the group of users also need to contribute to maintaining buses clean, as much as BMTC or KSRTC.

I know the plight of ordinary bus commuters. Only if BMTC officials are made to commute by their own ordinary buses they will realise the ground realities

In effect, what you are asking is for everyone to be provided 5-star comforts at budget prices. Unfortunately, this cannot be done in the same way that 5-star hotels cannot operate by charging budget-hotel rates.

Ticket prices on ordinary buses are much lesser than volvos, no doubt since procurement & operation cost for such buses is much cheaper. Everyone knows that these buses are not comfortable & use truck chassis, but transport has also to be provided for those that cannot afford better quality. All other bus-related infrastructure (viz. bus stops, roads, etc) are the same for all types of buses, isn't it ?

VKM Sir,

I don’t want to be an apologist for KSRTC or BMTC, but I thought I should defend some of the decisions they have made regarding the Mercedes Benz as well as the JNUURM orders particularly after seeing your post in this thread questioing their decisions. To quote from your post titled “CONTINUING STRATIFIED SERVICE - EXTENDED TO MYSORE”, … how JNNURM funds are being misused on loss making  Volvos (cost Rs.67 lakhs - does this keep changing?) and FESLF (Front Engine Semi Low Floor- Cost Rs.22 lakhs) in the name of transport infrastructure… Isn't it time for an RTI and PIL to stop procurement and introduction of such stratified system …”

That’s why I had pointed out that JNNURM had some stipulations about the use of the funds, and KSRTC had no option but to buy the low floor buses. In any case you seem to have changed your mind judging by how you have appreciated the way KSRTC has gone about procuring the semi-low floor buses. Incidentally BMTC has also taken a very similar approach with the semi-low floor buses. And both KSRTC and BMTC have taken the same approach with respect to ordering the fully built buses in the case of low-floor buses viz the Volvos.

You seem to be anguished about KSRTC and BMTC providing what you call stratified services. As others have pointed out there is nothing unusual about this. Indian railways do this, and so do most other state RTCs. That is because there exist people with different levels of paying capacity in our society and these corporations need to cater to everyone.

I don’t know what the charter was for BTS when it was started several decades ago. But it is not the same Bangalore any more. As the monopoly public transport provider of this ever growing city, BMTC has a charter which goes beyond just providing bus services at the lowest possible level. One of their charter is to provide services that can reduce the congestion and pollution in this city and that can only be done by getting people to switch from their private vehicles and this again is possible only by providing premium services like the Volvo services.

By the way I don’t understand why you also attack the Big-10 buses. They are just ordinary buses with a different livery and have reasonable fares. And on the routes that I see these buses regularly (Sarjaur and Kadugodi) they are very well patronized.

The people who patronize the premium services do not require any subsidies and will be more than happy to pay their fair share in order to use these services, as they are already doing now when they use the private Volvo services on inter-state routes. But under the present system BMTC has a monopoly in city bus services in Bangalore and they are the only entity which can provide this service that the people badly need. You keep referring to the half-empty buses. That is probably because you are looking at the wrong bus at the wrong time. The Volvo buses are running quite full during the commute hours as expected in a city bus system.

As regards the fare in Volvo buses I guess BMTC is in a bind. If they raise the fare there will be many people complaining that the services would have gone out of reach of the middle class. If they lower the fare there will be others complaining that the poor are subsidizing the middle class. 

You make the claim that the premium services are being subsidized by the ordinary commuters. If that is the case then please lobby for BMTC to be bifurcated into separate corporations with a separate corporation to cater to the premium services with its on funding mechanisms. There will be many people behind this initiative.  

 This thread goes through a never ending series on this debate.  If I may, could I summarize the debate a little bit in slightly different words.

There have been several reports that BMTCs volvo service is loss making.  In view of this fact and that many a times, ordinary buses are crowded and not very comfortable - VKM sir has questioned whether the emphasis on Volvos is leading to a loss and whether the ordinary bus users are subsiizing the "rich" volvo users.

There has been vigorous opposition by some on the counts that (a) stratified service is common in India and that stratified service is required in India (b) Stratified service is essential to lure the a typical bus users to use their cars less

I think everybody has valid points here.  Presumably, nobody is against having some better quality buses that are higher cost on the roads.

Could we look at this problem  a little differently. I think several facts are not clear.  We need to comprehend the facts clearly before having any sort of meaningful debate, in my humble opinion.  A question list is posted below

(a) What is the real cost of a Volvo B7R bus? Several numbers are available. What are the projected O&M costs? What would be volvo's profit margins at the correct price.  Does the excise and customs policies get in the way of impacting the bus cost?

(b) What is the real cost of an "ordinary" bus. How is the quoted price computed considering that the chassis is often built by BMTC.

(c) What are the pros and cons of ordinary versus volvo?

(d) What are the desirable qualities of a good city bus meant to target car users from the perspective of economics, safety and ride quality? Cost, features, operation, ticket price etc.

(e) Finally, we need to look at BMTC's financial statements for the last few years and comprehend the impact of volvos, fuel price fluctuations

(f)  About BMTC itself - how many buses can their depots hold?

Would somebody be interested in pursuing this angle? (I am trying to narrow my focus of activities on PRAJA and hence would not want to volunteer for any of this).  Some of this may already be reported somewhere on this site itself.  VKM may already have a firm grip on the finacial aspects... I have not been able to understand much of the numbers available on BMTC website and CAG website.

VKM,

The discussions will have some meaning only when people like me and you who often complain on this forum take it to logical conclusion. In these instances we take these issues to respective public agencies.

Let me tell you this again. SB also said this umpteen times. We all are at liberty to pursue actions that we think are necessary in the form and mode we think best. Therefore you are also free to take stratification battle to BMTC thru Srihari and other experts on your own in way you think is best . You certainly don't need our messenger service.

But we will certainly use our contacts in BMTC to setup a formal meeting if you think that would be helpful.

I am sure you would agree that for such formal meetings we need to have a set and agreed agenda for  a fruitful discussion with powers that matters. You also would agree that the discussions to be be focused and fruitful, we need data points that establishes the issue that we want BMTC to address. In our past meetings with BMTC, BMRC and others we have learn't that a brief and concise presentations, document listing the issues are well received and also serve as reference to ask for responses from the authorities.

A formal document(s) is very much necessary to have the focused discussion. For that you can skimmed the necessary points, data, statistics and expert opinions from this post, and other discussions. If you can rope in experts like Sriharu that would be great.

But let me warn you about the statistics from News media. They are all politically and business motivated. So be cautious in using numbers from News media. We have seen the untruths and utter lies that major news media unleashed in BIAL saga.

I would like to stress here that, myself and other team members will continue to engage BMTC to convey the popular sentiments of Praja and working hard to get necessary actions taken. At the same time every body on this forum are also free and encouraged to device their own plans to bring sanity in public transport and other spheres of life in Bangalore.

 To improve any service, we have to be the end users first. A person who travels daily in a car or 2 wheeler cannot like our press reporter brothers, nor NGOs like Janagraha or ABIDE. It is the sensible end user's feedback that has to be taken into account.  Long conceptual blogs and articles and discussions will not do any trick. We need to be more practical and at the grass root level, taking each locality and route into considerations.

I recently posted my experience in regularly commuting on the ring road, the problems and the possible solutions. Somewhat like that we need every Praja member to travel in BMTC buses atleast for a month and share their experiences and possible solutions.

Hope the new buses will be deployed in new routes, say from corner to corner bypassing the bus stations at Majestic, Shivajinagar, Market etc. to avoid jamming the roads to these bus stations and fulfilling the crying needs of the commuters where bus services are inadequate/nonexistant.

K.V.Pathy

The rickety ones will be shifted to, as you mentioned, to outer ring roads, inner ring roads, etc., etc., to cater to aam aadmi

Wonderful VKM Sir,

I have intentionly kept myself away from all the 1,828 past posts on stratified BMTC services :)

But this line of yours is worth appreciating. Lots of 'techie tech' (read richie rich) people who use the highly frequent and efficient ring road service. These techie techs would be extremely pleased to hear you classify them as 'aam aadmi'.

Kelrappo Keli........ anta dangoora saarabeku anta aase aagtaa-ide :)

-Srivatsava

PS: This is intented to be a fun post. I just couldnt resist posting this

Vasant,

You are right bang on when you said

"Long conceptual blogs and articles and discussions will not do any trick................."

"we need every Praja member to travel in BMTC buses at least for a month and share their experiences and possible solutions..."

In that spirit, pls do look forward to some sustained campaigns on BMTC service from Praja and take the real time experience to the BMTC for corrective actions. In that endeavor, we definitely needs tens of Volunteers who could provide the feedback, statistics, data points, photos etc.

Some campaigns (to be run for a month or so) that are thought about are:

1. Observing the pattern of BMTC Buses stopping at Bus Stops.
2. Destination Boards - Displayed correctly or not

I am sure the list is not enough. Will look forward to more suggestions.

Syed

 I have seen that happen and complained to BMTC with date and time and a copy of my ticket so that they know the time and route..  They responded promising action, however, I do not really know if action really was taken. Nowadays, volvo conductors also have the habit of writing change amount on the ticket and occasionally purloining the change when the passenger forgets or is unable to csatch the conductor because these buses get so full in the mornings and evenings on the IT sector route.

AC busses means more pollution on the streets and more drain on the precious imported diesel..

Instead how about planting more road side trees with larger canopies..which can give the best shade for everyone..peds to busses and keep the temperatures and pollution down..

As found during the survey during mobilicity 2013, people are looking for reliable service than anything else..comfort of AC did not figure much...so why not work at providing that instead?

@VSM,

The title of your original post is misleading since the accidents are not due to stratified services in theh first place. The response of the govt in supplying new buses to the skeshput depot is shortsighted. Doctor has prescribed an immediate medicine to treat the symptom at the surface and is ignoring the underlying root cause and the disease itself. Road crashes in my opinion are a bigger killer than cancer and cardiovascular diseases combined among healthy people below 60 years of age. The sad problem is that these accidental deaths are preventable and the government & public have not woken up.

I had written a post on praja -

http://praja.in/en/blog/blrpraj/2012/11/02/accidents-involving-commercial-vehicles

but, if you notice the last reply (from santosharjun ), that is more or less the attitude in our country. It has a list of negative things why nothing can be done in India. Even before a solution is attempted we have accepted defeat. I don't think that the goverment or the people are realizing the magnitude of road accident problem in our country. It is worse than any epidemic that could strike the country. So, check out the following figures of road accident deaths  -

Whole of India - 1,39,091. This equates to 278   "Airbus 380" planes crashing every year in India.

Karnataka(10%) - 13909. This equates to 27 "Airbus 380" planes crashing every year in karnataka state alone.

For the above calculations i have assumed a approx. figure of 500 passengers per A-380 plane which is the average seating in a 2 class configuration, A-380 can in fact seat more in a high density single class configuration. Also, i have used the statistics published in http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/tamil-nadu-tops-in-road-accident-deaths/article4843433.ece.

Reason i have drawn a comparison with a plane is to illustrate the magnitude of the problem. Aviation has become so safe that in the past 10 years for example there is only one plane crash in india (the Mangalore Air India express crash). And if there is a crash, a detailed investigation is launched and corrective measures are put into place preventing future crashes thereby making air travel very safe. Why not for road travel? Just supplying new buses to a bus depot is not going to solve the problem in my humble opinion.

The same methologies, enforcement and use of technologies that are used in aviation are desperately needed in road transport. This problem is only going to worsen with the introduction of more high speed expressways accross the country on the lines of Mumbai-Pune expressway, NICE Expressway (mysore - bangalore).

If the analysis in this post cannot convey the magnitude of the problem then what else can?!! Actually your original post and my reply don't belong in this thread of stratified services of BMTC at all.

@VSM,

There is some misunderstanding between us and i still disagree; here is why.

First off; I disagree with your post heading "Stratified service killed 8 commuters"
(http://praja.in/en/blog/v...).

Secondly, if you pause and read my post again it will become very clear why i have used the example of Airbus 380, I am  obviously NOT making any direct comparisons. I am just using that to drive home the magnitude of the problem of road accidents. Reason i said that is that if an aircraft crashes the government sits up and springs into action, the media gets involved, there is close scrutiny and corrective action is taken (the world over) and made safe. Little do people realize that the road traffic deaths in the statistics i provided is equivalent to 27 such A-380 aircraft crashing in Karnataka alone EVERY YEAR and again the reason for this comparison is to stimulate the readers of this post and my previous post and the central AND state governments to ask this question - Hey, this is unacceptable, why is the death toll so high; what can we do about it? And one more note - i obviously don't have data what % of road accidents are bus related, lorry related and further within buses whether it was volvo bus, ordinary bus etc. but that is besides the point because my attempt is to highlight the overall lack of safety on the roads PERIOD and the issue of accidents relating to buses not connected to "stratified services" as the political forces may intelligently manipulate it to be (to stir up the rich vs poor thing).

Thirdly, i again repeat, bus accidents has nothing to do with stratified services; irresprctive of bus depot, irrespective of luxury bus - volvo,mercedes etc.; irrespective of rural bus travelling on highway or bus travelling between major cities like bangalore-chennai; the problem of accidents are by and far due to reckless driving; lack of traffic enforcement and bad road design.

In the news report you highlighted in your post ( http://praja.in/en/blog/v...)  MLAs have observed that the bus was beyond the norms for being fit and secondly; driver claimed that the steering rod had broken. Seriously, should anybody beleive this hearsay? Should we believe some bunch of jokers like MLAs and the driver? Who is an MLA to be making such observations? What are their qualifications other than to get political mileage out of this? A national level/state level safety board should actually be investigating every such incident involving a commercial goods OR passenger carrier and come out with a detailed report only after which we will have data to pin the deaths due to bad maintenance or some other factor. I can bet my money that huge % of accidents are caused due to reckless & sleep deprived drivers with the remaining large % being due to badly designed roads. As an example look at this http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/HAR1202.pdf ; this is the kind of investigation that should happen with a commercial passenger or goods carrier accdident and a similar kind of report is what should be demanded by the  public from the government.

And as far as the myth that stratified services are causing these accidents as the headline of your other post leads us to believe take a look at this - http://travelbyvolvo.blog...

there are detailed photos of accidents involving luxury buses. The problem is that ill trained drivers with ZERO policing and enforcement are given these high powered buses and let loose on our KILLERhighways. I would frankly not want to travel in one or any highway on which these heavy vehicles are running if given a choice!.

On my recent trip to London i took multiple trips on National Express coaches (volvo service equivalent) and the drivers were so good and following all the rules without rash driving. I am sure even maintenance is good with adequate enforcement.

Hope my long post explains in details my thoughts and clarifies why i disagree along with facts backing what i have stated. 

@vkm

You question "Question is: Why stratified benefit only in Mangalore Circle? "

My answer - Where does the article say that stratified services are offered only in Mangalore circle? The article just talks about fare reduction between Mangalore/Udupi and other cities. From your posts it is obvious that you are not happy with stratified services..but that should not cloud your judgment of facts presented; for example the article mentioned in the link you posted. 

This KSRTC timetable proves that "stratified" volvo services are offered in other parts of Karnataka too -

http://www.ksrtc.in/site/sites/all/themes/ksrtc/pdf/volvomap/mys.pdf

Here is a route map of Airavat Volvo services -

http://www.ksrtc.in/site/airavat-route-map

So, let me ask some questions now to you - Please help us understand;

1) is your grouse against stratified services as a whole?

2) do you want KSRTC and other service providers to do away with all luxury services and give a one size fits all ordinary service bus to everybody?

3) Or, do you want luxury services to be provided by a separate entity that is spun off from KSRTC that stands on it's own and survives on it's own financials/profits?

Answers to the above questions and some detailed thoughts from you will help generate a better and useful discussion on this forum.  Like i said before, stratified services were there even 30  years back and will not go away and that is the real world we live in. Even to have "darshan" of god we have stratified services like in Tirupati we have "special entry darshan OR Seeghra Darshan)

Regarding the robbing Paul to pay Peter analogy that someone gave....i would say that in India, as far as public infrastructure goes the case has been that both Paul AND Peter have been robbed and don't get their money's worth. This is slowly changing in terms of better airports that are being built; the metros that are being built in all cities and better expressways that are coming up....but we have to go a long way still. We need more visionaries who can visualise and implement things.