Stratified BMTC service & Making profits with deficient service

... untrue.

Saying that

"Stop pampering the hi-end customers with Volvos etc., because they would prefer to travel in their fleet of cars even if it matters that they will be behind a Volvo to the same destination."

Is a stretch. May not be true for those who have fleets of cars, but most of us with a car or two simply hate the headache of driving, managing drivers and wasting needless hours every morning. What you said is the biggest "false assumption" doing the rounds. But yes, its your word against mine.

Its not like we don't know what you have said above. Who is praising BMTC for their excellent services here? Sir, we too have eyes and ears (and nose!), and see the condition of buses everyday. Not the best (my bars are certainly high), but you went a bit overboard there - the quality of buses has gotten better. You may have ridden the buses for 50 years, but I ride them these days, and the quality of ride now is better than what it was in BTS days.

Why can't our goal be to have all of Bengaluru, regardless of their class and creed, travel in nicer buses. Are you saying that Bangaloreans don't desrve comfortable bus rides? Why is your benchmark low?

What are your ideas on fixing all of what you mentioned above?

We have talked this a lot, in fact, even had a poll here for this. Most of us said (via that poll), that we don't care that much for A/c. Just provide neat and clean and comfortable ride, and end to end connectivity. BTW, I should tell you the reason for why I ride the Volvo - their acceleration. Whitefield to city - Volvo does it faster because it has better pick up and speed on slopes etc.

Vasanthkumar Sir,

Thanks for the feedback. Your observations are very valid and true also.

But let us make this clear, we are not just pushing for better Volvo services, we want a better transportation infrastructure and that is what we aim to do with these exercises.

I completely agree with your point - common man should be the priority and will be the priority. We are working on that - please join us in these efforts. There is no point in shooting down one service just because another service is not functioning well. We will need to fix all problems.

We are in this mess because people havent raised their voices consistently, apart from cribbing and whining about it for hours with friends, how many of us have have tried to engage with the BMTC or the Transport minister - hardly any and yet we all want the best services. If we need things to change we need to change - we need to demand things in an organized and civilized manner - and consistently. 

Why dont we start an email campaign and write to out transport minister and BMTC. Lets go and pester the minister and BMTC for better services every week - please take the lead, I will assure you every support that i can give and i will join you.

Rithesh

This comment has been moved here.

As for as my opinon goes ..... sir vasantkumar is being using the bmtc for past 50 yrs. 50 yrs ... he has been pulled here and there from the deficent service. so, suddenly when he sees bmtc focus shifting to volvo buses, instead of improving their basic service ... he gets angry and that's natural. 
But, that's not the end of story. Bangalore is growing. People no longer have patience. They want everything to be fast. Now, time is equated with money. As,  a result ... people have started using their own vechiles, Result traffic. This has back-fired the bmtc.. Just look for a moment .......  a service ... only pubic transport service availabe even today .... is making a cry to use its service. We can see how things are going out of hand. So, the one way to get out from this dead-lock is to give a luxurious service, so that it attracts, and refrain from people taking cars. Now that the nano is rolling out, just imagine 2-wheeler ( which occupy most traffic density)  converts to nano. I don't know whether there will be any space left in the road. As, such bmtc are trying to popularize volvo's. 
Again the story doesn't end. Bmtc have to change their operating stratergies, and mangement.
People want a reliable, well connected, clean, economical public transport.
If, they don't change, and go ahead with present stratergies in popularising vovlo, then they will be just wasting a huge some of money, and would miserablly fail in gving service both in normal and luxirous segment.

ok .... these are my thoughts.

thanks,
srinath
 

Class of service by speed, not in terms of road speed, but having fewer stops, may make more sense. Sort of like fast and slow locals of Mumbai.

I was wondering if its possible to make a bus where one third of it is A/c, and two thirds regular. Like how aeroplanes have business class as well as economy.

Point is - don't think BMTC started A/c buses to keep majority people away (via a high price service) or just to burn money. In general, demand = supply. Many need comfortable rides. Now whether comfortable = A/c - that can be questioned. To me, comfortable = not crowded, dust free, and good suspension. BMTC thought Volvo is the answer, it could be wrong, could be right, time will tell.

 

Not sure who is suggesting a split bus (Ac and non-AC). As I have said, do the maths and we may find that everyone could ride the Volvo. Unless some of us do not want to ride along side the not so educated majority this should be welcomed by one and all.

It makes bigger sense to have limited (express buses) as in Mumbai (until 90s - all buses in Mumbai were same - only some were called limited as some stops were missed). Since introduction of Kinglong, all old AC buses are to be deemed as just another bus. The pricing on Kinglong was similar to AC bus. Mumbai still does passes for unlimited use and has a simple structure http://bestundertaking.com/transport/index.htm The point is that from point of view of getting the routes rationalised and ticketing structure easier to understand - Mumbai essentially is trying to maintain a two tier structure (the only difference between an old Mumbai bus and AC buses is the AC, comfort levels are otherwise same, all buses are just as well maintained, no broken windows, no dusty interiors, all seats are cushioned).  If London can have a single ticket of just 80 pence for entire journey (irrespective of whether it a single deck, double deck or an articulated  bendi) - be it 1 km or 10 miles,  is it not worth exploring how the maths works?

But feel free to find a way of out the maze of types, classes and different fares and get a system that works optimally - good luck to those who think this is the way forward.

ASJ

www.driving-india.blogspot.com

One has to first understand the basics - the needs & the realities in India first before comparisons with elsewhere.

This country has nearly two-thirds still very poor that seek cheap city transport services (or even free, if possible). For them, paying anything as a fare is difficult. Very cheap transport has to be provided for them too.

In sharp contrast, we have the growing affordability of the middle & upper middle classes with rising incomes that has resulted in them seeking better comforts & who are willing to pay. If not, they will use their cars.

This is very unlike cities overseas where people form a much more homogenous group & are much better off. Thus, public transport costs are generally far higher & supports the notion of "one size fits all".

How can services be made viable if, instead of about 15 lakhs, we had to spend 35 lakhs per bus (as in the case of KingLong buses) or 70 lakhs per bus (volvos) & collect meagre fares all the time from everyone ? Are we not encouraging a leakage of benefits to the better off who can pay more ?

Making them affordable to all is easier said than done & is wishful thinking, unless we are ready to keep dishing out heavy subsidies to keep the bus services afloat.

I dont think this is hard at all to understand, if one stops comparisons with unsuitable examples.

90% middle class in Mumbai use PT with highly educated people rubbing shoulders with the poorest - this is why I had stopped using trains in mumbai a long time ago, as did many mumbaikars who have shifted to cars - I know this as many from my mumbai office have told me as also some of my relatives who work & live there. In my opinion, mumbaikars deserve better services, & that's why the Metro is coming up there to ensure that at least these new trains are not crowded all the time - fares will surely be higher than existing trains.

Also, this does not imply or mean that it has to be as miserable everywhere else - even mumbai has realized that the only answer is to provide higher services for those that demand & pay for it.

As SB mentioned, comfort = not crowded, dust free, & good suspension. In hot climate, I would add AC as well.

Hop-On/Off is one service that is running empty & is the wrong one to base calculations on. There are many other volvo services all over the city (like the 335E & the 500) that are running full despite the higher fares, but with no rubbing of shoulders. If the math is worked out for them, it will give much different results & one can conclude that it might make sense to run these services, & subsidise rates on other ordinary services, but if they are crowded with people rubbing shoulders like in mumbai, many will opt out & return to their cars.

There are many car users who have changed to buses since volvos were introduced & some have also mentioned this on praja, though one may have to make a survey to find out exact numbers. The point is, people change over to be rid of the tiresome driving & seek other options & this is one option that can be made available.

New cars will keep getting sold & traffic may keep rising, but a more comfortable alternative service has now become a neccessity & need not be frowned upon because others cannot afford it. It may be a long-term goal to make such more comfortable travel affordable for all, but it will take time & is still far away. For sure, subsidies cannot be dished out to all.

I do acknowledge that working out several differential services will be a burden, but if a single class service is opted for & even if the buses were all nicer volvos than now, buses will start getting very crowded & the car owners will shift over as they will prefer it to heavily crowded buses anyday.

And what about the cost of providing only volvos everywhere ? Maths tell us that it will cost some five times more - so, for 5000 buses, the cost will be 3500 crores ! Where is this going to come from ? We have been a nation with too many subsidies. Let us not continue to make these subsidies reach those that are well-off also in the name of catering to the poor.

Assuming an investment of 70 lakhs per bus, & overheads (viz. running costs, maintenance, staff salaries, spares, etc.) at about 50,000 rs per month, & a revenue of about 2.16 lakhs per month (assumed average only 25 passengers per hour for daily 12-hour operation X 25 days X 20 rs. average fare per passenger per hour), the net profit would be abt 1.30 lakhs.

Thus, it would require 54 months to recover the principal invested & probably another 18 months to recover interests. That is 72 months or 6 years, after which the service can commence subsidising ordinary services to the tune of abt 1 lakh per month, assuming some increase in maintenenace costs.

Now, assuming ticket prices are slashed to 5 rs with 75 passengers (with obvious rubbing of shoulders), the revenue would be -  75 X 12 X 30 X 5 = 1.35 lakhs.

After deducting running costs of 50k, net would be 0.85 lakhs. Recovery of this will take 82 months & a further period of appx 35 months for interests (ie. about 10 years !). By then, the bus would be old & maintenance costs will flatten profits, which may now have become meagre with increasing running costs.

Now, would the pricing strategy in the 1st case help better to serve society or will the 2nd case help better ?

It is obvious that with the profits during the 4-year period (after the first 6 years) in the 1st case, ordinary services can be subsidised or out of the profits, benefits can be given to ordinary passengers, such as better quality of buses, better seats, lower fares, etc. Further, those passengers that might consider using the bus instead of cars will have the option of a higher quality service & it might lead to decreased congestion, though this may be difficult to quantify.

And last, but not the least important aspect, authorities will have more teeth to enforce traffic restraints & TDM measures (such as heavy parking charges & congestion pricing), which can assist in controlling traffic growth.

What do we gain in the 2nd case ? No revenues for profit generation to speak of, more irritation for car users as they will detest over crowded buses, a lot more cars on the streets, highly crowded roads & more expenditure on maintaining & increasing road infrastructure ! - Exactly where we are today - Total & complete chaos !!

I also do not subscribe to new flyovers & new facilities for cars unless proper PT is in place to cater to all sections. All new transport & road infrastructure MUST be with the single focus on mass transport, be these ordinary trains, Metro, Buses or Monorail. If 10,000 buses have to be run on Bangalore's roads, so be it - drive the cars out, if need be, but give differential services to cater to all groups of commuters first - tomorrow, they should not have reason to complain about poor & low quality transport or overcrowded & uncomfortable buses with a strong lobby & demand more road infrastructure - this can only be possible if proper services are in place first.

I rest my case for differential services, as also recommended by National urban transport Policy.

 If prfits are the key, lets be ruthless and get the house in order

One answer would be to get the bus operations outsourced for a fixed fee and keep the pricing with the BMTC. In the outsourced contract keep the base fee attractive but low and have incentives for automation measures, efficiency, reliability, reach, volumes handled, discipline on street etc. Let BMTC only audit. You could start with specific routes and then add routes to the same vendor or bring in different vendors for each set of routes. If you bring in different vendors you have to ensure they all use the same standards else it will become chaos. Single large tender for all routes for say 5 years will attract international players like SMRT SG, MTR HK etc.

Even on something as basic in today's world as updating the website, if the approach is as lackadaisic as evident in this comment, this city can't afford to have them operating our bus services any longer, whatever not as a monopoly - period!

When Naveen went on ask how come the BMTC web-site, which had originally been conceived very well, is generally seen to be un-updated, the CTMO turned to one of his assistants with a "baega maad-ree", explaining away generally that the tender had expired and they needed to re-tender it. The assistant nodded his head, none too enthusiastically, though.
For the full text, click on:   http://bangalore.praja.in/blog/rithesh/2009/04/01/bmtc-meeting-update-need-innovative-ideas-praja#comment-12928

My God, even the dumbest of operators could have made huge money putting to good use the wealth of free gyaan available on Praja. But, not BMTC!

Muralidhar Rao

... that I have been reading this with interest. May be we should create a separate thread like "BMTC - hard maths and stats" or something, because comments on this post seem more eye-opening that the original post itself.

asj - I am with you on one thing here - the goal should be to provide Volvo or super quality ride for everyone. How will this be doable is maths and business models. But if this is not feasible, multi-tiered service would attract all. From my preliminary observations, Volvo in Bangalore is taking car and bike users off the road, majority of Volvo riders were not BMTC customers earlier because of crowded and dirty perceptions.

Mumbai is not always the right benchmark or comparison for Bangalore. Some reasons:

• BEST has the advantage of working to feed and support the long-haul train services. BEST trying A/c buses is something I have not read a lot about, but majority works far from residence (avg trip distances are large). If I anyway have to get to a CR/WR station and sit packed in a train for 15-20 minutes, whats the point of 10 mins of A/c comfort in the bus?
• Bangalore is still small, so much so that its still possible to think and imagine BMTC to provide commute connectivity (periphery to CBD). BEST has always worked with CR/WR, and to CR/WR, Mumbai's island structure has been an advantage.

BTW, that city, with its so called "spirit" has brewed a breed that has, till recently, put up with traveling like worms in trains. That quality of PT, simply because it had no parallel, was taken off as the pride and lifeline of the city. Problems Bangalore faces today were all faced by Mumbai 15-20 years ago. I say this because I saw the city, its jams, its congestion and migrants during my Powai days. May be you loved those tight huddles and embraces in the trains, but I didn't. 4 years (of studies) in Mumbai, and I was sure that I don't want to continue there and didn't apply for a single job in Mumbai. But back then (20 years ago), our country was different, not all could afford private transport, and citizen's expectations were (carefully managed?) to be low.

Summary of my last "perceptive" paragraph is that Mumbai's perceived PT goods (75% of motorized transport by PT) has a big "lack of quality options" angle.

Some references from the Nov 2007 World Bank paper on Mumbai PT (will provide link later):

The average speed of buses on ordinary routes is 12 km/hr, but is 16 km/hr on limited
routes, with fewer stops. ... Heavy delays, especially on feeder routes to suburban railway stations, result in waiting times up to 30 minutes, and force many commuters to walk 1.5 to 2 km to their destinations (Shrivastava and Dhingra, 2006)

BEST buses ... revenues fall short of operating costs. The shortfall is made up in part from electricity revenues.7 In 2005-2006 fares would have had to be raised by 29.6% for BEST transport operations to break even..

Due to high demand, there is serious overcrowding in second-class compartments, with as many as 5,000 passengers traveling per 9-car train during peak rush hours.8 This can result in 14-16 standing passengers per square meter of floor space.

in 2005-2006 ... According to official figures, suburban rail operations posted a loss of Rs. 123.8 million, implying a subsidy of 1.2% of fares

What if the bus subsidy was removed - whats the "elasticity" like?

The elasticity of bus commuters with respect to the bus fare ranges from -0.36 to -0.32. This implies that removal of the bus subsidy (i.e., a 30% increase in fares) would reduce bus commuters by 10-11%. To which modes would these commuters switch? Most would switch to rail only; however, some would switch to walk only, and some would switch to a car or two-wheeler.

Anyway ASJ. Want to make it clear that I am not arguing with you here. Urban PT in India as a fascinating topic, and there is so much to share (I have read a lot recently) that typing stats and content here is a big function of time :)

Visit http://www.bmtcinfo.com/english/ads.htm 

At 1200 per side per month X 12 X 5k buses = 216000000 (I won't bother calculating what returns this may fetch on an FD - all businesses use every banking tool available to compound money).

And this is revenue from buses, bus shelters can double if not add more.

Of course, the shelters and all buses, including black and red boards must be in a shape worthy enough to find companises ready to use them for displaying their pride products (in Pune, even after ban on Guthka adverts, old ads stayed on buses for ages, only because there were no new takers).

Our service operators are rather hopeless when it comes to doing business (well most cities dont even know how to rationalise their routes and frequencies - what are they good at?).

ASJ

www.driving-india.blogspot.com

 Should that be a comparison, if not just on capacity, on where Bangalore is heading..?

- Make BIG10 the only option to reach CBD's..stop other busses which start from Majestic/Market..we will then see if Market/Majestic really needed all these busses in the first place

- Give them exclusive bus lanes wherever posible

- Work at an average speed of atleast 25Kmph

- Make wait times at bus stops not more than 15 min anywhere on BIG10 route

BIG10 seems to be a sensible move..but needs to be supported well!

If we can make BIG10 a success..it would not be too difficult to replace the BIG10 routes with LRT or Metro..depending on the capacity study!  

To quote ASJ "Our service operators are rather hopeless when it comes to doing business (well most cities dont even know how to rationalise their routes and frequencies - what are they good at?)."

Therein lies the crux of the problem.

The BMTC lot have got it embedded in their minds that the people of Bangalore will not accept anything less than door-to-door services, and transfers, even if just one or two, will not be acceptable to them. And, their 'stage' fare system perpetuates that mind-set resulting in the commuting cost almost doubling with even one transfer. This is what has led to the fragmentation of the services, resulting in there being over 1800 routes (routes like 121 have sub-routes from A to Z and even beyond), though many of them have just one or two 'schedules(operations/ services)' a day.

Apart from the mind-stes are the possibility of well-entrenched mafia operations, which could get upset with changes.

And, that's why when a professional like Prof Ashwin Mahesh tries to rationalise and simplify the operations on the lines of BIG-10, & KS, there's so little co-operation, and perhaps even an element of sabotage.

Well, with concerted effort, these can change. But, the much faster route would be to bring in good competition, perhaps initially for the high-end services, where anyway the BMTC is bleeding heavily.

But, for all that a good regulator is an essential pre-requisite. One thought that the BMLTA was conceived with that in view. It is totally disappointing the way this organisation has floundered.

And, what is the ABIDe doing about it all?  

Muralidhar Rao

Doc ASJ - I can't agree more with you on the logic of a sigle uniform tariff per ride. The following was the recommendation made by me in this aspect (under the grid & feeder concept) to the BMTC as the co-Chairman of its CCTF, now almost five years back:

FARE STRUCTURINGS
A single uniform fare structure for a ride irrespective of the distance traveled, say at Rs 2/- per ride on the feeder routes, and Rs 3/- per ride on the grid routes. The advantages are of simplicity of operations helping to lower manpower costs for ensuring compliance considerably. After a 3-month or a 6-month period, the fare figures may be revised upward or downward depending on whether the operations are recording a loss or profit, respectively. Given the fact that the public is going to enjoy better overall connectivity, there may be little resistance to marginal upward revisions. The slight disadvantage that short distance travelers may face exists even today. The advantages are however overwhelming, and in the larger interests of the BMTC and hence the general public.

Monthly passes
The monthly passes may have denominations of
a)Rs 250/- for travel as you like on any grid or feeder route.
b)Rs 100/- for travel as you like, but only on feeder routes.
c)Rs 175/- for travel as you like, but only on grid routes.

Muralidhar Rao

Gizmofreak - Thanks for posting your angle & you are one of many in Bangalore that have discarded use of the car in preference for better volvo buses. Though I am not a daily commuter, I too have found the service very refreshing & use it whenever I can & have noted that a lot of car users are now using these services.

However, I am disappointed that when the new realities were explained in detail as to why differentially priced bus services were required, conservative ideas began to impose themselves with closed, narrow mindedness when there was ample evidence pointing to the contrary, & even with bizzare allegations claiming that there was a hidden new form of 'untouchability' that was taking shape.

In my opinion, the authorities have read this correctly & recommended such services through the National Urban Transport Policy, or NUTP, but some of our brethern still belong to the middle ages & find it extremely hard to accept the new realities in the country.

I think that with efflux of time, these services can & will be available to all, but the priority now is clearly to rid the streets of congestion with too many cars & other vehicles & also to reduce pollution.

Toward this effort, I think you have contributed too !

 

Mr.Vasanth - It is not wishful thinking for Volvos to be cash cows. On many routes, these services are already seeing good patronization levels. In fact, BIAL Suvarna services are now being discontinued as Volvos are outperforming them with better loads.

My area does not have direct Volvo services nearby, but there are groups already requesting them since they do not wish to drive cars for their daily commutes. It will of course take some time to generate substantial revenues, but I think it is worth a shot as benefits can be many (ridding streets of congestion, subsidizing other services, etc.).

I agree with IDS. We need stats. I think we need stats on usage of Volvos too. Its being claimed that some of the Volvo routes are successful. We need stats for that too along with other things.

I don't know why we frequently get into this debate on Volvo/AC v/s ordinary buses. As I've stated elsewhere, we conducted a survey within our office (which is a typical IT company with 60%+ owning cars) and many car users really wanted reliable transport with a level of comfort, not necessarily Volvo.

Today, we have buses like Pushpaks (BMTC fleet operating exclusively for our tech park), which many car users are quite happy about using. To most of the users, Volvo would be great, but its a wish list item than a need. What seems to matter is reliability and some level of comfort and cleanliness. We did the cost analysis to operate Volvo. It would have increased our monthly charge per user by about three times. Since there was no real demand within our company for Volvo level of service, it was dropped.

-- navshot

 

Navshot - nice one. Stats are needed all round and not to just prove one set of assumptions. If 3.8 million use buses each day, is it too much to  say a good few thousands at any one point are experiencing hardships pointed out by Vasantkumar? If its hard to believe then perhaps this may help http://www.consumercomplaints.in/bycompany/bmtc-a20208.html

ASJ

PS: I would have shared the report on uptake of AC buses on Pune BRT route that ran full buses until differential pricing was introduced and ticket costs went through the roof - but hey, Bangalore is unique. As for judgements on who is conservative, those who persist on differentiating, I wonder how they will be judged by Aam Admi. And the Village Vs City debate will haunt us in the decades to come as village after village gets emptied (some 850 million will be urbanised by 2051, so say people who write NUTP like reports). And who can blame them, urban life with all its investments is not just attractive, but their only hope of surviving. BTW, even NUTP does not give stats / evidence to support the notion that differential pricing helps.

 

 

 

Dear Adhiraj,

I can see that you are upset. Dont be please. all I wanted to say was

• Back then, buses provided better rides than the fiats, ambassadors, and standards. Since late 90s, "competition" has improved significantly, and that is a likely reason many new commuters have moved away from PT.
• I am not an A/c fan, made that very clear. The vision is same as yours - top tier service for all.
• If you continue to think CR/WR trunk and elongated structure don't make Greater Mumbai a diffrent case, then you are being unfair.
• Subsidizing PT could be like subsidizing crowding and "long distance" commute pattern for a city. That subsidy is eventually going to the "Rich" only. The service providing fraterntiy, the carpenters, the canteen buys, the storekeepers etc come to the "Rich" neighbourhoods to provide their services at lower than "market" costs, isn't it? Charging "at cost" for PT would mean incentivizing "work near your home", which is a much better proposition than "stay at Ulhas Nagar and work at Dadar" scheme of things.

I was with you on that great "enclave" thread. I give it to you that this multi tier bus service discussion has some elements in common with that.

I see Volvo like service as BMTC facilitating "car pool". It helps them fight the bad perception by drawing out those who wouldn't have ventured. Sorting out BMTC the right way (good quality uniform service) may take some time, say 3 years. How many car commuters (at 4000 cars a day) would you be putting on the road till then. A higher tier service is a little practical right now, thats all.

When BMTC gets its act together, do you think people would be fools to ignore a perfectly neat and clean bus at 1/4th the fare and still opt for A/c buses? I can tell you after seeing a live example  - NO! Just go ask BMTC if 333P (A Volvo) has lost riders after Big10 Varthur Road started (new Ashok Leyland semi low floor bus).

However, at the end of it all - your point about there being tons of scope for getting the "business right". Hats off to you for digging out so many examples merely by picking out stats from BMTC website itself. If I go to the next PRaja-BMTC interaction, I am going to carry along some stats-requesting list of questions from you!

I also want to point you in the direction of -  http://www.mail-archive.com/citizens-action-forum@googlegroups.com/msg00819.html - mails from people respected in the transport world (including international mailing lists). This is also a relatively recent e-mail discussion and hence relevant.

Now revisit BMTC site - what seems like a boastful publicity (when most cities are demanding a change in law so as to allow bus service providers a respite from paying road taxes), BMTC claims it pays Rs. 14.19 lakh to the Government towards Motor Vehicle tax (daily). In return buses get 10% of road space (or even less), no bus lanes and having to remain stuck on congested roads. So why pay so much in taxes? If this amount is true - 2 days worth of taxes will give a brand new bus of a decent make, every 4 days one could buy a Volvo!! If SEZs can IT parks enjoy tax breaks why not our bus undertakings?

BMTC also takes pride in telling the world it is the only profit making bus service (in India, I have heard some people say in Asia). But if this is the sole purpose, then we can kiss goodbye to concept of comprehensive bus services. This letter also adds to many frustrations reported in one of the other links shared above http://www.publishaletter.com/readletter.jsp?plid=9140 (as an analogy rather than comparison, Pune has over 8k buses, only 1000 belong to PMT, the rest all serve staff of the companies IT and industry in PCMC - this is not a problem as these buses are leased from private contractors, but irony is that beyond making 4 trips a day, these buses are occupying precious road sapce in Pune and adding to congestion).

Here I would end by saying that too much is made out of Mumbai's geography. Far too much is made of trains. This post should help http://pune.praja.in/discuss/forums/2009/02/some-best-bus-routes-i-used Equally, even if BEST is modest in saying on its website that it supports the railways, this stopped being true 2 decades ago. BEST is far more than a feeder, one can make direct or at worst signle transfer journeys from souther tips to Western, Central and Eastern suburbs. In fact the reason why BEST serves only 4.5 million and has only 3300 buses is more complex - the Geography puts BEST at a dis-advantage. Greater Mumbai is made up 6 Municipal Corporations. BEST could not go beyond Mulund and was limited for considerable time to dropping people off at Vashi just beyond the creek. All the other 5 corporations run their rubbish bus services - which means trains were (and even now are) the best options for people past a geographical bounds created by creeks (even today, to get to Dombivili and Kalyan by road, one first has to go to New Bombay). There is some good news though, BEST is said to be getting permission to run buses in Thane as well. I recommend if you can, to track down Raymond Lim's speech from laste year (he made 3 as Singapore's Transport Minister) - not that I want to compare, its more to do with the principles of running services - Singapore use to restrict buses from running parallel to the trains, but once trains have hit a saturation point, buses take over and on two lines, buses are going to no more remain just feeders. This happened in Mumbai many moons ago. It will probably happen on Bangalore's Metro too, its a matter of time, so the whole idea of buses being feeders is not written in stone (though many have this concept).

I can go on about Mumbai, but the reason I ever put this city in frame was with respect to their tickets and passes pricing structure - it is of course entirely up to Bangaloreans and Bangalore to do their own thing. I stand by need for reforms and finding ways of saying goodbye to conductors (on average as per Sudhir Badami paper, 8 people are employed per bus in almost every bus undertaking in India, Mumbai is the worst in this regard, I suspect due to needing 2 conductors on their double decks) - but for various reasons this won't be easy.

ASJ

www.driving-india.blogspot.com

SB avare'- The goal of my 'mutiny' has been to achieve liberation from the tyranny of the BMTC monopoly. I suppose nobody can have a quarrel with that objective. All the same, I had done my best to engage with them over the past so many years to try and improve their services. It was in the same spirit that I had agreed to join the recent effort also. But, what I sensed was some kind of a sabotage happening of the recent reform efforts, and that's what has set me more mutineous now.

The question before the engagers is which of the factions they want to engage with, since the two clearly appear to be working at cross-purposes.

I am more and more convinced that the only option is all out mutiny. Capt Gopinath can be a good ally.

Muralidhar Rao

I want to take this stand here. There is an unserved set of passengers who want to use public transport at a certain level of safety, reliability and comfort but are resorting to using private transport due to unavailability. Volvos (Synonym for premium service) give an opportunity to get this class on board and reduce the private transport thus serving the common good of all class of passengers. There is a currently served set of passengers (3.8 mil) who already have an option but may be underserved due to ineffeciencies in routing and lack of safety reliability and comfort. I know Praja has been campaigning for bettering the services in general and also serving the unserved and underserved. I am convinced all campaigns and meetings by Praja emphasise safety, reliability and comfort without distinctions of class. This class war is artificial and created by parochial thinking.

The opinion of majority of the people in this thread is that a differentiated service needs to be provided to lure people from their personal vehicles to public transport – primarily buses. Personal vehicles do not include just cars. It also includes two wheelers, auto rickshaws and the yellow cabs which all combine to increase the congestion on our roads.

Judging by the good patronage received by the Volvos on the 335E and 500K routes it is evident that the Volvos have been successful in getting a large number of people to use public transport. It is highly doubtful whether these people could have been persuaded to use public transport just by adding more ordinary buses.

One complaint Ms. Vasanthkumar has about the Volvo’s is that they are being procured at a hefty price “out of the money contributed by the majority travelers in ordinary buses”. If that is the case it is certainly unfair. One option to avoid such a situation is to shift the operations of the Volvo buses to a separate company which could again be state owned. This new company should be responsible for its own finances and then we can see whether the premium services are sustainable. This is not a far fetched option. Some states like Tamil Nadu have a separate company to run their express buses.

Laluji's turned railways 360 degrees, reduced the problems of common man and considered going in for hi-technology and bullet trains shortly worth

Really? Please see this PAC report slamming the IR. By your logic the railways have no basis for introducing 1st class, AC, shatabdi or rajdhani let alone palace on wheels or bullet trains.

In fact Laloo was proposing to screw the common man by introducing a side middle berth in 2nd class! What were they building a train for midgets or a WW2 bunker?

Vasanthkumar Sir,

I see no difference between how Railways and BMTC are being run. Both claim to be profit making entities. Both make profits by hardly investing in commuter infrastructure.

Railways - basic things like toilets both on the rails and in stations are horrible, stations are mostly filled with filth, they are not commuter/disabled friendly, they do not invest in rail infrastructure - like ROBs, RUBs (as a result other road users have to suffer), the coaches are as bad as BMTC buses, they are over congested (refer to that middle berth problem IDS pointed out), new projects/track doubling/new tracks hardly go as scheduled, trains are never on time (over utilization of tracks) - causing delays, etc etc.. After independence we have hardly added any new tracks!!

No point in stating the issues with BMTC - you know it better than anyone.

Both the railways and BMTC also make significant amount of money from non-commuter operations - real estate and ad revenues. If BMTC has Volvos - railways have Shatabdhis (and they are also talking about bullet trains now). A Shatabdhi always gets the first right of use on any track - all others have to wait for it to pass by - why aren't you opposing Shatabdhis?

We need to be fighting for better services on non-Volvo buses and that cannot be achieved by killing Volvo services. These are completely non related issues.

Railways turn around was not because of Lalu"ji". He just took the credit for it.

Mr.Vasnthkumar,

You demand repeatedly for "clean, fast, efficient & economic transport" from BMTC for all, & it appears that your demands have come as a result of the introduction of volvos with higher ticket prices that are cleaner & better. They may not necessarily be faster since traffic conditions effect them equally as it does other buses. The only advantage is that volvos have better engines with quicker pick-up.

Have you ever considered why buses are not so fast & are losing efficiency ? Why they are unclean, as you state ? I will leave the economic part aside since only volvos (some 224 buses) are higher priced.

They are losing efficiency because of crowded roads - crowded roads mainly because there are too many cars. And there are too many cars because these car users do not want to use ordinary buses & demand much more cleaner buses, is'nt it ? So, the first step in the solution to make buses "fast & efficient" is clearly to remove as many cars as possible from the streets, is'nt it ?

Yesterday, when I was travelling by bus from Madivala, I noted a person peeling oranges within the bus & dropping the skin under his seat. Another passenger (sitting next to me) tried to spit out of the window, but some of it stuck to the window glass. So, BMTC is not the only party responsible if buses are dirty & in poor condition. People are equally responsible.

BMTC can maintain buses only as clean as passengers allow it to be. So, I don't buy your argument about BMTC's failure in maintaining buses clean since we also contribute to the dirt within the buses. It is our collective failure !   Similarly, if the streets are dirty, we cannot just only blame BBMP for it.

Maybe you should consider a campaign to educate people to keep buses clean & co-operate with BMTC to help maintain a better public transport before blaming only BMTC about unclean buses.

BMTC's experiment with higher priced services has a chance of reducing cars on the streets. In the process, they may also improve road efficiency for all city buses, & hopefully they will generate enough revenues to subsidise & help in the effort to improve services for all.

I agree that data about usage patterns for volvos is unavailable & needs some serious introspection.

But, I think the assumption that only IT areas use these services is incorrect. I boarded a volvo at Shivajinagar at about 4.30PM, bound for JP Nagar & got off midway. The bus was totally full at Shivajinagar itself & had many who were standing. This may be because there are few volvos from Shivajinagar, but this shows that usage is not confined only to the IT areas.

The IT areas corner much of the crowds using volvos for sure, but there is also a market for different destinations, as my experience tells. The no. of services can be reduced to only those segments that do not lose money.

I dont think one can declare that the effort to rope in car users has 'failed' yet. This would of course require data, but there are atleast some indications that some car users prefer to use volvos.

1) Killer costs
“Our calculations appear to have terribly gone wrong,” a top BMTC official told Bangalore Mirror. While the earnings per kilometre from a Vayu Vajra bus are just Rs 25.48, the corresponding expenditure incurred per km is considerably more at Rs 41.53. The mileage clocked by a Vayu Vajra bus, which costs around Rs 75 lakh, is just 2.56 km per litre of diesel.

source -

http://www.bangaloremirro...

2) General bus-onomics ;this is a very interesting article that should give us more insights about the vehicle costs itself, what features make a bus more expensive and why

http://www.cseindia.org/A...

3) Another attempt of explaining volvo-nomics to the layman

http://ecofin.wordpress.c...
 
Please draw your own conclusions, but, I would go by the figure of Rs 41.53 indicated in the BangaloreMirror article (assuming that the article is correct and a  reliable BMTC official was a source for the article).

Interesting that BMTC has rs.42/km on Volvos.  Need to understand the assumptions a bit more.  How much is variable and how much is fixed. 

Let us assume Rs 50/km as the cost.  225 buses running 200 km / day - means daily costs are around Rs.22,00,000 or about Rs.6 crores a month.  We need to have revenues more than that.

Let us say that BMTC introduces a Vajra pass at Rs.750/month and that can be used on any bus as well.  How many additional people will have to utilize Vajras passes / month - 80000 extra people need to buy this pass.  In a city of 450,000 cars and 2,000,000 two wheeler and 100,000 autos should not be difficult.  BMTC has to put these buses where the money is. It might have to reserve 20 buses for political destinations, but has to put the others in economically viable places.

There are (from bmtcinfo.com) 2.35 lakh monthly passes issued (Rs.400/month?)  Let us assume that 10% of these upgrade to Vajra and contribute rs.350/month more as well.   That is Rs.84,00,000 additional revenue.

Srivathsa

http://bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com/2009/04/volvo-buses-drain-on-bmtc.html

Question is why not other alternatives or manufacturers of similar type of buses at lesser cost could not be approached.

Why not BMTC not exploring mini A/C buses like SRS Travels one run for companies at lower occupany routes and sticking only to Volvos.

Why BMTC is dancing at the whims of politicians and providing Volvos wherever they demand.

Why not ordinary non A/C low floor  buses with similar comforts, pickup and suspension as that of Volvos not being explored like the Delhi BRT buses.

Major source for loss I see is the 66 bus run on the HOHO.

 

"BMTC had targeted to earn Rs 10 per km from ads. The operating costs of a Volvo bus" is Rs 52 per km.

 

BMTC had quoted Rs 20 lakh per bus per year for ads on a Vayu Vajra bus and Rs 6 lakh per bus per year from others. All BMTC buses on the airport route, 40 Vayu Vajra and 43 Suvarna buses, and 46 Vajra buses on city routes were up for advertisements.

 

More Volvo buses to come BMTC has planned to purchase 200 new Volvo buses in the current year. This is part of BMTC’s plan to add 1,000 new buses to the already existing 5,441, utilising the JNNURM funds from the union government.

 

The Minister for Transport, R Ashok in the Legislative Council last month said that all the 264 volvo buses (Vajra and Vayu Vajra) were making a daily profit of Rs 19.59 lakh through advertisements.

 

However, the BMTC had been incurring a daily loss of Rs 4.35 lakh due to operation of these buses"

Here the bus numbers add up.  224 Vajras (same as bmtcinfo) and 40Vayu Vajras = 264 buses.  Rs.52/km as the operating costs.  Comes between the rs.41 from Bangalore Mirror and the Rs.60 from my back of the envelope calculations. 

Lots of different numbers from different sources.

Srivathsa

 

 

 

 bifurcating the bus with grill work with an aisle for conductor only and men should not move over to the other side reserved for ladies

Wow, You make swat valley sound like a liberal democracy.

Hi,

To stem the rot, Prof.M N Srihari in his report has suggested:

Before accepting "expert" views at face value, one needs to examine the credentials of the person making the statement. IMHO, any "expert" who conducts a survey and concludes that the average occupancy of V 335E is 6 passengers, needs to have his head examined.

Increase Volvo seats from 35 to 45; 

The seating capacity of a Volvo is 41. Where did he get 35 from?                                                                  

Run the fleet only during peak hours;       

On Sunday, I spotted an Orange Line and V 331A  at Shivajinagar around 1 pm (non-peak hour). The OL left jam-packed with standees, while the 331A left with about 20 passengers on board. Is the suggestion for BMTC to further lose passengers?                                                 

Withdraw from loss making routes;

OK. But "loss-making routes"  should be classified on the basis of operating revenue and not on random generalisations like "non-IT" or "peak hour service" etc.                                                           

Provide Volvos only to IT/ITeS hubs;

I wonder if he has ever travelled on 45-G, 201-R, 500-D or 258-C (all of which are non-IT routes).

All these boils down to how a social services sector has embarked on adventure capital investment plan with stratified /deficient service to one section of the society :

When 95% of the fleet consists of "ordinary" buses and only 5% of "luxury" buses, I wonder who is being provided with deficient service here?

bad investment; 

government should immediately direct BMTC to stop buying more Volvos;

So, on the basis of incorrect statistics, farcial analysis and  unexplainable generalisations, comes a grand, hollow conclusion. Such is the greatness of the self-proclaimed "experts". And the best part : they expect people to buy this trash, and there are many who do.

Need I say more?

Regards,

 

~~~~

Manish, Nagarbhavi.

protecting the honor and dignity of our women folk

Discrimination = Treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit

This Sreehari dude's claim to fame is making statements like 'trees on footpath are impediments to pedestrians and should be chopped down' and 'Trees belong in parks, not on the road'. And these are only some select sample.

Like any self proclaimed expert, he knows that publicity is his life blood, so making xxxxx statements from time to time is the way to stay in the news. I would disregard any findings from such 'experts'. They aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

 

Hi,

let us do some simple calculation:  If each bus has a length of 50 feet and requires about 5 feet in the front and 5 feet at the back to keep it moving - total 60 feet road is required for each bus.  This means 60' X 10,000 buses = 6,00,000 feet of road will be required to keep them on road by 2012?  Any idea on how to provide this length of road by 2012..?

I'd like to provide the solution with some more calculation. A car occupies about half the road space of a bus. So, the space occupied by 10,000 buses would be the same as occupied by 10,000*2 = 20,000 cars. Eliminate this many cars from the road and you will find space for the buses.

Various methods of eliminating cars such as congestion charges, heavy taxes, odd/even numberplate rectriction have all been discussed on the forum in the past. Every one of them can be implemented with sufficient political will. So, the solution is not a problem. The question is : are we ready to throw our cars out?

As to me, I'd prefer to see 10,000 Volvos on the roads instead of 20,000 cars.

Regards,

~~~~

Manish, Nagarbhavi.

Statistics obtained from the Bangalore City traffic police web site

Vehicle population in Bangalore city:

Two Wheelers	2263552
L.M.V	553321
Auto rickshaw	95859
H.T.V.	50096
H.G.V	109051
Others	103251
Total	3175130

 I guess if the new buses can result in a small fraction of these vehicles getting off the road, there should be enough space for all of the 10,000 new buses.

Dear Mr. Mysoremath, do you have any data to back up your contention that the Volvo services are loss making? Or are you making conjectures based on your idealogical biases ?

You may have done back of envelope calculations based on various assumptions, but the numbers you get would depend on the assumptions you make, which may seem reasonable to you but not to someone else.

Even less reliable would be media reports which seem to be based on nothing but the editor's need to  fill space. The ones I have read are as full of conjecture as Bangalore is full of people.

The only numbers that have credibillity would be those published by the BMTC as part of their annual financial report, where they break out the numbers for Volvos separately. Or obtained from them via an RTI application. 

As far as I am aware, no such data exists. BMTC doesn't seem to have published financial figures later than for FY06-07. If you have access to such data, could you please share it with the rest of us so we can have a debate based on facts, not our idealogical biases.

If not, it is your word against some one elses. My contention is that, excluding the disasterous HOHO aka Kendra Saarige service, the Volvo services as a whole make an operating profit i.e. they more than recover the cost of running them (diesel + crew salary + routine maintenance).

If you consider routes that have been running atleast year, which is a reasonable period for new routes to stabilise (both Volvo and regular), I say that these generate enough operating surplus to also cover their cost of capital (interest on bus purchase cost) + depreciation.

Overall, the Vajras are a profitable service for BMTC and it is in their interest to expand these services as fast as possible.

 

  VKM sir,

             all the calaculations here on Praja have been based on cost/ expenses and  pricing/occupancy only. ashwin (Prof.Ashwin Mahesh??)  may have knowledge about the advertising revenue from Volvos. That surely will be the game-changer in the profit-loss calculations...

-Srivatsava V

DH is publishing news, not analysis. Something is up at BMTC - internal wrangling perhaps, that we hear unnamed BMTC officials being quoted on figures etc.

There is no point arguing without real data here. Profit and Loss calculations are not as simple. You can't just compare capital expenditure of bus 1 vs bus 2, you need total cost of ownership, maintenance and insurance contracts. Operating expenses - need to see detailed data behind those. And nobody is even thinking of putting monetary value to pollution (some buses pollute less than others) and carbon credits BMTC could generate if it can prove that it is moving cars users to buses.

Whether VKMM sir would want to hear it or not, Volvo has attracted car users. Myself and 100 other Praja members here who have switched for daily on once-twice a week commute would sign up to that statement.

If one has to go by daily or monthly profit and loss statements (that newspapers are dishing out to us), then even Namma Metro would be seen in red for at least 30 years if not more.

BWSSB loses money as well, so do we ask them to stop supplying water to homes?

So please stop this. If you want to talk P&L, use this forum to provide stats and full picture. Starting with perceptions and criticism first, and then finding data to support them is more of the approach our media (esp electronic) takes today. Analysis = data, and then conclusions.

Come in the field please - let us get data from all aspects.

On Vajra - what we need to hear from BMTC is if they have a long term business plan - a guarantee that BMTC will rationalize/tweak and adjust the High end service plans so that they make business sense - run only on IT corridors, or club with Big10 (every 3rd or 4th Big10 equipment a Vajra) etc etc. From what we know, BMTC wants to work to tune its Vajra services.

Now, by saying all of above, am I putting myself forward as BMTC sympathizer? Neither yes, nor no - I don't care about BMTC. I care only about good bus services, and will pursue all routes that get me that. And we know that there are two possible routes - BMTC improving its operations, or BMTC looking to outsource more or privaize. Work to support both, why put all your eggs in just one basket?

This comment has been moved here.

This comment has been moved here.

This comment has been moved here.

This comment has been moved here.

This comment has been moved here.

Mysoremath Sir, Volvo scene is different in Mysore compared to Bangalore. I stay near the ORR in Kattriguppe are in Bangalore and I see the ITPL and EC bound buses full with people standing. This increases very much near BTM. I also see the Majestic bound Volvo 45G which takes the same route as Pushpak 45G also full due to very minimal cost difference. Lots of car users have already taken the Volvos for office commute and offloaded the traffic to some extent. Since the population of Bangalore is ever increasing, it is compensated by the new user. It is the misleading media report to fill the page which confuses people. Vayu Vajras and the HOHO are the killers of BMTC. I think Vayu Vajras can be replaced by something like a Airconditioned Minibuses. I agree that more normal buses needed, we also need these kind of services. Scenario in Mysore is totally different. Although cost is bit more than the normal buses, people are very rigid to take the change. Mysore City to Chamundi Hills is only 20 rupees, that itself people are rigid to take. One more thing in Mysore is the KSRTC officials donot interact with public like the BMTC does here in Bangalore. I know Murali Sir will have his comment ready, but we get immediate response for the emails as well as we from Praja had many meetings with BMTC. It is not so in the case of Mysore.

After reading the posts from many Praja members, one thing seems clear. Praja members are very articulate but are self serving, most dont see or dont want to see what Mr Vasanth Mysoremath has stated which is in the interest of the general public and not the section of the public who travel by Volvos.