KIS liye JUSCO Mysore aaya ?

- This post is not local.

- If you wanted to post a "national" level stuff - should have picked "Where"  as "India", not Bangalore.

- If you must put this post to Mysore, Bangalore or Chennai audiences, please write separate posts with local relevance.

Next - how is this "Citizen Reports"? There is no reporting here at all, this is pure and simple rant - a "Complaint", or at best a "Review" if it can be called that.

Write opionions, please do - we all have them in plenty, its only natural. But please don't write just opinions - supply some facts, examples, or local relevence along with the rhetoric.

cheers,

SB aka Pranav

So now, let us discuss that drinking water policy and debate the provisions that you don't like. This will be so much more fun than ideological trash talk.

- Is the 2002 urban drinking water policy public?

- What parts of the urban drinking water policy you don't like?

- How can we register our protest to the UDW policy?

- What are the alternate ways of drafting, and funding such policies?

- How is JUSCO linked to World Bank, whats the conspiracy theory there?

I look forward to a detailed and separate post on above lines, we all do. But please don't write simple rants.

Unless you are pointing out to the proposal documents, or suggesting how else you want to provide me with 24x7 clean water, I am not commenting any more.

All your friends were asleep last 50 years when you and me, rich and poor alike were getting 4th world quality services from public utility providers.

For exmaple - You are asleep right now when power situation is grim. But the moment government will announce a power plant outside of a PSU to work on the shortfall, ideologists will be found in the streets holding protest banners and placards.

Why do you only talk of Morally corrupt officials and babus? Why are those who don't like to pay water bill (about 25-30% of BWSSB consumers in Bangalore, 20-25% in Mysore - number are guestimates) not corrupt?

Grow up from just blaming everyone around you - corrupt this and corrupt that. Don't sense sinister plots in everything that happens around you. Analyzing anything first requires that we first put our biases aside.

For the record, I too am a socialist (ask Murali who is always surpised at lack of my 100% support for his ideas). But I would call myself a neo-socialist in the sense that:

1) my expectations are higher. I don't settle for 4 hours water supply for all, I want 24x 7 for all.

2) My "all" includes us middle-class-ians as well. I don't claim to represent the poor and downtrodden alone. All I know is that over last 50 years, folks with biased and opnionated thoughts like you have made my beloved country into a poor-people manufacturing machine.

cheers, and water, power, mobility and bandwith to all :)

-SB aka Pranav

Good job, Pranav and Chari. 'Public agenda' is someone's private agenda to spread poverty and romanticise about it. And, the identity of the person is also not difficult to guess.

Murali-sir,

As you have access to google, please type "Perils of water privatization" or "Cochabamba".  Quite often rainwater harvesting is illegal when water supply is privatized.  You CANNOT compare mobile phones and airlines with water and air.  You can live without the former but you cannot live without the latter. 

How is it that the BMC can provide water to 13 million people in Bombay without having to resort to privatization?  I am in Bombay and the big news is that they might be forced to get water every other day rather than everyday if the rains fail.  

What regulatory frameworks have been put in place to ensure a fair pricing structure? Or that every area will be covered regardless of the socio economic status of that area?  Who will regulate?  What redressal mechanisms are there for consumers?  Yes, BWSSB does a not very good job - but is the right long term solution privatization?

Any time there is profit a "more consumption is better" mentality exists.  Is that the way to go with water?  A private water company is not going to create water.  How do we ensure that Cauvery water is not wasted or more is diverted to Bangalore at the expense of Mandya or Mysore because more money is to be made here?  

Would be good if someone knowdgeable on JUSCO can lay out the overall plan. 

Srivathsa

Any time there is profit a "more consumption is better" mentality exists.  Is that the way to go with water?

Can we not make the contract for less is better model? Provide incentives for the water company to reduce consumption while maintaining the flow at 24*7 in the contract.

Yajamaanre'

The entire contract document has now been made available on the net. A certain Mr Bhat of Mysore Grahakara Parishad (MGP), the foremost city think-tank, studied it and prepared a summary of it for the benefit of the citizens (This is available on PRAJA). The comments I have posted are based on a reading of the same.

Now, MGP has members like Maj Genl Vombatkere, before whom an avowed Socialist like you will appear like an Ambani, and even his opposition to the project has since died down.

Apart from that, Mr Viswanath (zenrainman, before whom you'll appear atleast like a Narayanamurthy) has also posted his comments in the same thread, apparently after studying the original contract documents. And, they are in support.

On top of all these is the fact that it has all been conceived by none other than Mr Manivannan, whose comments, I expect, you have read.

You still suspicious, or do you have some private agenda too :)))?

 

Mr.Manivannan is very very modest in his statement. 

- When an opportunity has been extended to those who are 'objecting' for becoming a part of the deliverable system, it is their duty to join the system with their own energy to create a little more force into the pressure of pumping quality and quantity water in the pipes of VVWW.

- Vasanth Mysoremath 

Dear Srivathsa,

Thanks for the post! Feels nice to discuss the project, when the queries are genuine and not opinionated. If I understand it right, your concern is whether certain rights are protected or not, so that we don’t end up worse. I share your concern on this.

Indeed what makes the difference in such contract is the ‘the terms of contract’. For example, Delhi Jal Board is alleged to have entered into a bad contract on this same issue of water supply, which they have to rescind later.

Now how we decide whether the contract is good or bad. Again we have to see three issues:

1.     Whether the assets are handed over for a long time? (Are they given the right to manage the assets practically for perpetuity?)

2.     Whether the profit motive of the private agency is curtailed legally, and not left to the market forces.

3.     Whether we retain sufficient control over the agency, so that in case of emergency, we can run the show ourselves?

Luckily, the NURM-JUSCO contract of Mysore has all these three points taken care of. Firstly the contract period is only 6 years. Out of that, 3 years for putting up the system in place and another 3 years to teach VVWW to run the system.

Secondly, the profit motive is curtailed as the total payment to be made for all 6 years is fixed, and not connected to the tariff. The tariff is under the control of the MCC.

Thirdly, the contract is a great improvement over the earlier such contracts in the country, retaining the control of the government, and only giving the functional autonomy. The deliverables are clearly earmarked.

Thus, we are not trading one devil for another!

regards,

Mani Sir

Now that we are all agreed that something is better than nothing and JUSCO contract is finalised, what is the present position, when can we expect the water to flow in our taps?  Period?

What after 6 years?  Will our non-too tech savvy VVWW officials be able to carry on a highly tech based management system?  Or will it be AMC again with JUSCO?

- Just for clarification

- Vasant Mysoremath

Dear Shri. Srivathsa,

Thanks for the response. Your questions are very valid. I would love to answer in detail to all these questions. Unfortunately, i am not free now due to the communal violence occuring in the city. I will be occupied with that issue for some time, and won't have tim e to cull out the details from the voluminous agreement. (indeed, the answers to your questions will form almost 50% of the agreement document itself!) Kindly bear with me for this.

But, alternatively, may i suggest that you go thru the entire document of the NURM-JUSCO agreement which is available in the website along with the FAQs. You may contact the commissioner MCC, Shri. Raikar at 98456.55553 (sms in case he is busy). He will be able to clear all your doubts.

Best option will be to make a visit to the MCC, get a copy of the document and attachements and get the clarifications, then and there from all the concerned officials. We have the NURM meetings on every wednesday at 9am, at MCC.

Still if you need any clarification, after reading the document and talking to the commissioner, MCC, you may leave your questions here, and i will answer them.

Thanks again for taking interest in this project of public interest.

regards

Manivannan

96633.69333

Seems to have been successful

http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/jul/24/karnataka-success-with-water-management.htm

Article from April 22, 2010 from The Hindu:
 

... Mayor Purushottam criticised the functioning of Jamshedpur Utilities and Services Company Ltd. (JUSCO), which is entrusted with drinking water supply in the city, and pointed out that he was at the receiving end of the public ire in his ward. The Deputy Commissioner's attention was also drawn to the fact that the call centre set up to receive public complaints with regard to water supply was not functioning. Following which, the JUSCO representatives present in the meeting received a dressing down.

Peeved by the apparent indifferent attitude of the JUSCO staff, the Deputy Commissioner said he would write to their higher ups in the Tata group of which JUSCO is a constituent.

Another from Feb 18, 2010 :
 

At the weekly progress review meeting of Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission (JNNURM) here, the Deputy Commissioner, who is JNNURM special officer, expressed displeasure over complaints against JUSCO and asked its representative to convene a meeting to address them. Mayor Purushottam, Deputy Mayor Sharadamma, MUDA Commissioner P.C. Jayanna and MCC Commissioner K.S. Raikar attended the meeting.

M. Lakshmana of the Association and Concerned Citizens of Mysore (ACICM) alleged that JUSCO had not held meetings with the elected representatives and members of ward committees to address the problems. “More grievances over distribution are pouring in from the residents here after JUSCO took over water supply,” he alleged.

“The problems in water supply are only increasing following inaccessibility of JUSCO officials to address them,” Mr. Lakshmana alleged.

JUSCO like arrangement is good or bad - the debate could go on. But the fact that we are discussing grievances is a big improvement in itself.

Please, absolutely, go after JUSCO, expose all they do, dissect their operations, expose their finances - do all that you can to make them improve quality and qantity of water supply available to Mysore. Because now, you can!

We only get few hours of water supply in Bangalore. That too, not of desirable  quality. How many complaints does BWSSB have to show for it? For starters, how many of us have written here about BWSSB and grievances, and how many have about JUSCO?

Even die hard supporters of the private-player support (aka liberalization) in utility space (like Murali) will encourage you to dig deep on JUSCO like arrangements because whether utility is private or public, digging and questioning is a must for us (the consumers).

You can't just compare the JUSCO meeting to BESCOM and claim they are equivalent!    And as for Telecom, it is not the same as other utilities.  Please see this.  This was part of the long discussion we had over electricity 'reforms' on the Hasiru Usiru mailing list.  You'll find the other posts there too.

I'm sure people were complaining before JUSCO too.  I seem to have read articles on the same.  Google is your friend.

@pdk

You can't just compare the JUSCO meeting to BESCOM and claim they are equivalent!    

Exactly - the JUSCO one was attended by a vociferous RWA lot in the expectation of some response; the BESCOM one was attended by the usual lot who come more for thindi/ coffee

And as for Telecom, it is not the same as other utilities. Please see this.  

I can't quite make out what's trying to be conveyed. Whatever, I, in turn, would suggest your reading this, and this.

This was part of the long discussion we had over electricity 'reforms' on the Hasiru Usiru mailing list. You'll find the other posts there too.

May be; but, we didn't come to any agreement, right?

I'm sure people were complaining before JUSCO too. I seem to have read articles on the same. Google is your friend.

Yes, yes - very much like BESCOM's invitee list - incidentally, my name appears to have got dropped from it after I went public with this post

@pdk

The argument, if you recall, ended with my stating as below:

"And, what surprises me even more is when people fail to appreciate that "The state has a bigger role as the facilitator and regulator, and when it becomes a player in addition, this bigger role gets compromised. Besides, the state can rarely be an efficient player. And, if it's a monopoly situation (like with power distribution) , it becomes the epicentre of all kinds of racketeering".

Now, if that can't change your thinking one bit, then I too don't know what can.

And, nobody is saying that TATAs and Narayana Murthys have been sent down from the heavens to correct all the wrongs in this world. They also are human beings and they may have committed some mistakes here and there. But, the good they have done far outweigh the wrongs. As such, I would any day trust them to providing us our services than the government agencies.

 

@Muralidhar Rao,

"And, what surprises me even more is when people fail to appreciate that "The state has a bigger role as the facilitator and regulator, and when it becomes a player in addition, this bigger role gets compromised. Besides, the state can rarely be an efficient player. And, if it's a monopoly situation (like with power distribution) , it becomes the epicentre of all kinds of racketeering".

Now, if that can't change your thinking one bit, then I too don't know what can.

The difference between our arguments being that I had provided extensive examples refuting your position and quoted third-party studies (by Prayas and others) supporting my position.  You just keep repeating your mantra of govt role being that of regulator and facilitator etc.. and expect me to come around to your point of view :-) 

In any case, I don't have anything to gain or lose personally by privatization/publicisation (I'm assuming that is true for everyone).  I just don't appreciate blind ideological positions even when facts don't support it.

@pdk

The difference between our arguments being that I had provided extensive examples refuting your position and quoted third-party studies (by Prayas and others) supporting my position.  You just keep repeating your mantra of govt role being that of regulator and facilitator etc.. and expect me to come around to your point of view :-)

The essence of what Prayas was saying in its report was that the city of Delhi was not as yet getting the benefit of privatisation, as was hoped for. Like I had mentioned at http://praja.in/en/blog/murali772/2009/07/23/learnings-delhis-power-supply-privatisation, "these pitfalls are inevitable when you allow the government agency to be run to ground, and then out of desperation, look for a competent player to take over. This once again brings out the urgency for the government to divest itself from these functions early".

Further, as I have been saying, almost ad nauseum, "apart from Delhi and Mumbai, the cities/ areas that 'enjoy' power supply from private companies are Ahmedabad, Surat, Kolkata, Greater Noida, and in all these places, the customer satisfaction and profitability levels are far higher than elsewhere where the supplies are with government companies/ agencies, all being subject to uniform regulation by the respective SERC's. So, there must be enough merit to it. And, perhaps learning from the experiences in Delhi, the switch-over in other cities can happen more smoothly".

So, which position has the 'extensive examples' supporting it?

In any case, I don't have anything to gain or lose personally by privatization/publicisation (I'm assuming that is true for everyone).  

Isn't that quite where the problem lies? When the power supply is unreliable, you have your gen-set, inverter, converter, etc; when the water supply is unreliable, you have your bore-wells, the tanker wallah, the bottled water, etc; when the bus service is undependable, you have your cars/ two-wheelers, etc. But, for a fairly sizable section of the population, these are luxuries they cannot afford, but, which in the first place wouldn't have been required if the service deliveries were efficient. Have some concern for the also, please!

I just don't appreciate blind ideological positions even when facts don't support it.

Far worse is when people choose to remain blind to facts placed before them. "It's not enough to have eyes, you need to be able to see" as a saying goes.


@ Naveen

Murali water supply will be a lot more accountable than a JUSCO even:)))

 

A public utility supplies power to parts of Mumbai very successfully. Please go through the chain once again.

You could do that yourselves.

Kolkata power supply has problems. Greater Noida too has problems. 

And, wherever the service is being provided by the government agencies, it is all Raam-rajya? So, then, why did Delhi switch from DESU to the private players, at all? Why has the Karnataka government in its vision talked about privatising the distribution? Of course, I forgot, to satisfy the diktats from IMF/ World Bank, right?

Only Ahmedabad & Surat don't seem to have - but as I had shown they are very different in the area/ population they serve.

And, also some specific characteristics of Gujarati's?

and expect me to come around to your point of view :-)

You have heard of the horse and the water. I rest my case.

It is well known that monopolies, especially govt monopolies result in poor efficiencies, graft, over payment for supplies, non-responsiveness to customer needs, etc. - power is no exception as is water & transport.

Nothing seems to work in India since we continue to have too many problems (majority poorer sections that need subsidies, middle classes that demand quality, very corrupt govt officials who demand kickbacks, etc).

Maybe these are the reasons why competitive privatization has not been helpful in the power sector which is a basic need for all.

In others (such as telecom, insurance, airlines, etc), privatization has produced the best for customers. Unless we lift the poorer sections out of poverty, question marks & debates about privatization of basic utilities will continue, such as the one above !