Who is not stunned? Writing more about the incident from terrorism angle will lead to needless rambling. I have only one question to ask, from the angle of law and order. Isn't it time for Police Reforms, and overhaul of our internal security systems?
Till when will we wait? Till when will we keep getting distracted into Hindu Muslim Naxalism Conversion Jobs-for-locals this-movie-is-wrong whatever whatever angles and just ingore the basic thread that is common to all - how tight, modern and ready is our law and order system to prevent these boiling points? Whether a stick or a gun, leaving the domain of peaceful protests is crossing the line of law. Am I being too mechanical in looking at law and order infrastructure of our country in isolation?
I am just lost for words.
[PS: no hate comments please, go to media sites if you want to indulge in those discussions]
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Playing catch up
"Civic and Govt authorities are not prepared to deal with crises of this century. They are living in 1947 with equipment from 1947 while everything around them is in the next century"
In secutiry, law and order, infrastructure etc. Infrastructure isnt about building new apartments, security isnt about putting an extra scanner or 2, mordenizing police force isnt about giving them blackberries while they still sport a baton. Intelligence isnt about people sitting in office pushing files.
Arent we all on Praja essentially communicating this message in various blogs and forums? We are not moving in governance while the rest of the country is moving ahead.
Absolutely
Bomb blasts, shooting sprees, vendetta killings, murders, rapes, dacoities, chain snatchings, burglaries, cheatings - you name it - Reports of these & all other possible crimes fill up almost every newspaper or TV news channels almost everyday.
Is it not time that the law & order machinery, need to be shaken up thoroughly ?
This is much more of a necessity with intelligence units to prevent acts of terrorism that take away large no. of lives, such as train blasts in mumbai, or hyderabad blasts, etc, not to forget the ones in bangalore as well.
I beleive this has been long overdue.
Chaos in the name of Democracy
Nandan Nilekani promotes in his book Imagining India the necessity to have a national ID and how it helps deliver better service. This can be used to track our population and keep antisocial elements out. These are basics we should not be dreaming about. When are we going to make these happen?
We realize these things take time but we are still thinking about them. I think its time we put a stop to the fantasy that we are a superpower or are becoming one. We have no control on our own cities.
Its quit sad to see what the
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Extent of Media Coverage: Two Questions.
The blasting of the so called "Mother Ship" of the Somali Pirates by the Indian Navy,on 19,NOV.2008
As of today the Indian Government has acknowldged that the ship was infact a Thai Fishing Trawler but was hijacked by the Somali Pirates. The Indian Navy maintains that it not breach the International Maritime Law by attacking that trawler.
Version one : By Commondore Bhaskar of IN.
1.0 The Navy was within the right to self defend as it was fired upon.
2.0 Techically the trawler was no longer in the Thai possesion as it was hijacked.
3.0 From the flames on the ship after the attack it is clear that there was ammunition
Version Two : By Kaccharan owner of the Thai Trawler.
1.0 The hijacking was reported in the morning so why did the Indian Navy not know of it, as it was given to every ship.
2.0 Who fired first is one side of the story.
Third version: Foreign minister if India " We experss our deep condolances for the death of the crew but we did not violate any International Law."
MY QUESTION?
What would have been us Indians reaction if the STOLT Tanker -which was carrying Indian Crew and was hijacked for 64 days- would have been blown to bits as per the Ineternational Maritime Law?
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
Remembering the 'SPEED' movie
Context please
Indian Navy is the Common Factor.
but they let the Terrorists pass in the Indian Waters, to come to Mumbai!!!
Mr Vasanth,you are not thinking that the Media and the Cops have just
leaked the death of Mr Karkare. He is still alive. In bollywood this does not happen.
Whatever his track record he had the GUTS to put in light a complete different face of
religiuos fanatism, corruption and patriotism- which everybody knew but no body acknowledged.
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
Back to the topic
Getting back from media coverage to policing, protection for policemen etc, think about our internal security setup:
Look beyond these extreme acts of terrorism. Law has got to be blind to contexts. Beating people, breaking glass panes, burning public property - no matter what the justification, its all crime after all.
When we let those supposedly petty crimes happen without serious checks or punitive intent, only because we debate the justification etc, and let these happen as long as nobody loses life - how do you expect to even work on these extreme cases where you are dealing with smart, brainwashed and 100 times more driven set of individuals?
I for one seriously hope that last night's incidents will spark some deeper reforms instead of the usual side track into terrorism and religio-political issues.
Look at it this way
Okay, I must stop, or else this will get too long and I will lose my logical progression.
Mr Patil?
After all these bombings, we are so ill prepared. So Ill prepared that innocent, policeman's lives are lost. Mr Karkare's death, is a grave shame and loss for us. Was he given enough infrastructure and support to go in and handle the terrorists armed with Grenades and AK 47s? Was he pressurized to go in as it was ATS's duty?
To me this is shameful, the way our home ministry has treated and trained our police officials. How can we expect Lathi holding policeman, some with Pistols to take on such people. IMO we need a much more advanced task force. Army was called in too late. NSG was called in too late. Till this morning, Army was on standby!
Look at the state of Emergency Vehicles. Some super old antique peices. Not one Hi-Tech Ambulance, Paramedic or Fire fighting machine could be seen. Sometimes its scary how many onlookers can get soo close to the action!
Lastly, such incidents cant be prevented by checking peoples bags, we have to nail the route of the cause. Where do such terrorists get armed to the teeth with fully automatic weapons and grenades?
What is most shameful, is that we see soo much corruption and money laundering around us, that at times like this really shows how we are being swindelled, in the name of development!
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Slackness everywhere
This goes back to looseness in enforcement SB is mentioning. In the name of democracy everything has been let loose. Cops and checkpost inspectors take bribes to let in RDX, Drugs, Guns. RTO inspector let loose killer lorries on nthe roads. What do these bribe takers think they are doing? Helping the economy by allowing these things? These will ultimately be used to harm their very families.
Agree with Narayan, What were they standing by for? For Men with batons to go in and pull out the terrorists? How did experienced officers go out so unprotected in the line of fire? See images of how casually people are milling around the danger area?
Lastly I am waiting for Mr Patil's standard statement in a new dress. He doesnt even want to give up his job even if people have given up their lives.
India's Antiterror Errors
Years of caving to militants has made the problem worse
The reflexive Indian response to most every act of terrorism is to apportion blame rather than to seek a solution that will prevent, or at least minimize, its recurrence. Even Indonesia -- a still-poor Muslim-majority nation where sympathy for militants runs deeper than it does in India -- has done an infinitely better job of recognizing that the protection of citizens' lives is any government's first responsibility. A superbly trained federal antiterrorism force called Detachment 88 has ensured that country has not suffered a terrorist attack in more than three years.
By contrast, India's leaders -- who invariably swan around with armed guards paid for by the taxpayer -- can't even agree on a legal framework to keep the country safe.PR totally missing !
Thanks to Internet and WWW, since yesterday I am almost hooked onto newscast from India. The incidents have taken out my breadth. After following the happenings for almost 30 hours, one thing it comes to my mind that there is something very important aspect "PR" is missing from Mumbai.
On hand I must applaud the efforts from security forces in dealing with the situation, but on other hand I see that the PR efforts has been totally ignored. In absence of official PR and press conferences, it is free for all situation. Everything is said and murmured, but nothing with any amount of authority. One thing Indian needs to understand is that situations like this need a PR aspect from administration which keeps its people aware of what is happening. That is, done by administration by giving out information at regular intervals about the incidents, current cations that are taking place and also words of hope and public confidence. Such efforts boost public confidence, arrests spread of rumors and also gives indication to other govt agencies that people are in charge and taking care of situation. This is totally missing in the big picture. I hope somebody would look into this ASAP.
As somebody said, Security is not just having a latest fire arm, but also winning the mind game also.
From Mumbai's experience, I have been asking myself, is Bangalore better prepared for such incidents. Is police, security forces, hospitals, para-medics and public ready for any untoward situation like this? I know this is not the time to start pointing fingers, but I am asking the question from a prospective of, as ordinary citizen, can I do something? Can Praja being a people's platform do something that can compliment the administration efforts?
Syed
Top-down approach
How about completely isolating it from political system and make it a part of military? Military would have two organizations - internal security (covers current police dept, anti-terrorism unit, etc) and external security (Army, Navy, Air force, etc).
I know how difficult it is to amend laws to do some such drastic change. But, would any milder reform work given the current levels decay in the system?
-- navshot
IDS - Did they come via GOI ?
I think only the Taj Hotel & CST group may have come via GOI, & the Nariman (Oberoi Hotel) group may have come from the opposite shore (near Backbay - Marine Lines).
Despite the obvious delay in quickly responding to the crisis, the NSG now appears to be doing a fine job & the govt seems to have already ruled out any negotiations for hostages - they had yielded initially only to buy more time (?) - anyway, it's a good tactic. This is the right way to deal with terrorism, as American experiences with it's many hostage situations have shown us.
Ship...
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Rubber Dinghy/s - How Many ? Were did they land ?
I am aware of these reports - what I was referring to was the rubber dinghy/s - some reports state that there were two, some only one. Some say cuffe parade (which is the bacbay reclamation area, near Oberoi hotel), whilst IDS stated Gateway of India - this is on the other side. No news report that I came across mentioned this, & hence my query.
Contd..
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Forien Minister's comments
Does this make Karachi not in Pakistan?
So if the terrorists have come in rubber dingies or landed at the GOI or the airport, does it matter?
They have murdered +100 pepole and it is laxity of the Armed forces, be it the the Indian Navy,
Coast Guard, BSF,CISF,Intelligence agencies etc..... Politicians too have agreed not play the blame game on this issue.
I think the members of Praja will also like to adhere to the same irrespective of their background.
Luckily we have not captured a well known terrorist or else from six months down the lane we would have had to flow him to relaese with the representative of GOI escorting him. Just for visualisation lwt us imagine that a high profile ( The Prime Minister) Indian would have had to be released by the terrorists in the plane and Osama Bin Ladin would have had to escort him to New-Delhi. What would the fidhayen pilot have done?
HE WOULD HAVE CRASHED HIS PLANE . Bin Laden or no bin laden.
On seconds thoughts we should have
1.0 A federal agency.
2.0 A law making compulsary for a territorial army like in Israel. This will ensure a unformity in civilians and the man in uniform.One important lesson t o learn will be "The Boss is NOT always right". There is a brain for reasoning and not following.
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
GOI Vs Cuffe parade
We need to be better prepared...
We have learnt, that our Intelligence wing is in shambles. They always tell us about the attacks after it happens! We can't trust them....we need to be prepared.
By prepared I don't mean check everyone's bags 100 times. But we need a much better counter attack force than can be deployed within the golden hour.
Can you imagine how this scene would be, if NSG moved in 30 mins into the attack? The biggest loss to human life is because, we didn't have enough well armed personal to counter attack the well armed terrorists.
I like Navshot's idea of separating the police from the home ministry - and having all security forces under one corruption free politician free unit.
It took us almost 6 -7 hours to realize that this could not be handled by Mumbai police. Its rather annoying to see the apathy played by the central govt. directly leading to inefficiency.
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
More NSG units
State SWAT Units - Way to go
Each state must have it's own SWAT team, located, say in the capital city for that state, liasing with the central unit. This way, they will be able to repsond much quicker & can be moved to a neighbouring state much faster, in case of urgent needs.
This incident has clearly shown that valuable time was lost before their arrival to tackle the situation.
One wonders why, at least in Mumbai a team was not available when it had already been targeted by terrorists several times previously.
Out with Patil, party wants PC or Pranab
Source
We need elite forces or the Hotel Staff will do?
The recent rescue by the elite of Indian Forces e.g. NSG,MARCOS,Commandos of various uniforms was a delight who favours all the flavours. It was like the saying " Shut yr eyes and shoot- somebody is going to be hit"
What was common in them and the Home Minister Of India?
They too did not change dresses while adrressing press conferences !!
This is a shame when the the Navies MARCOS team was displayed as if on fashion show even before the operation was a success. It is not a success even after the shootout has finished. You have +175 persons murdered and top police officers marteyred.
The MARCOS it is said do not disclose their identity to their spouses also. But the leader was going to the press conference with binoculars and mask and talking sheepishly that the terrorists had the upper hand beacuse we were:
1.0 We were shooting and been shot at in the Dark.As if the terrorists were performing the magician act of disapperaing from one floor to another.
2.0 We did not have the layout- the hotel staff showed us the way. You don't have to have a map to know the layout of locations of stairs, lifts and ducts. These are the exit and entry points.
3.0 They were very well trained.
Wonderfull, these are the exact situation why you are trained and allowed to keep a beard in a clean shaved Army.
Just as an after thought!
Something is fishy, our forces are not that commical or inept, I mean they don't have the time to see credit cards and identity cards in total darkness when shot at.
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
Nitin - Beg to differ
While we can question why the Marcos had a press conference, etc, the reason they wear that sort of dress is to not reveal their identities. Even in Israel, the sappers (bomb squad) never reveal their identity, they don't allow photographs to be taken of them for good reason. I wonder what you would have to say if they had come in jeans and t-shirts!!!
This is the first time that the Marcos have been asked to do this. When they jumped into the fray they did not have maps with them. It took 24 hrs before the Taj could get them maps (have you ever been to the Taj and seen what a maze that place is?). There are many staircases, toilets, lifts.
This is also assymetrical warfare. The terrorists (like some of our motorists) don't care if they or others die. The Marcos don't have that luxury. Just shooting blindly in the dark does not work.
While it is all very well to sit back and criticize them, I would wonder what the colour of your pants would be if you were face to face with a gunman in the dark.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Do we deserve statesmen in our country??
Some painful things that I saw
a. Our politicians and their grandstanding. Initially our great "statesmanlike" opposition leader said that he would not exploit this and we must remain united, etc etc. He could not keep his promise for 12 hrs. What business did Modi have to come and make announcements in Bombay? How would he like it if Karunanidhi went to Gujarat and promised relief to people?
b. Our Finance Minister and Commerce Minister were quick to point out that "growth" would not get affected and investments will continue. Is this all they can think of? Sadly what they say is true. Businessmen smell money just like politicians smell votes. The company I used to work for ran its business in Lebanon during the civil war there, it has a factory in Saudi Arabia and has operations in Pakistan. And it is a US multinational.
They can do this because the shareholders and the people-that-matter don't have to risk their lives anywhere. If they did they would ask the government to get its act together before they invested. And because money talks, governments would listen.
c. Mr. Tata said that the government needs to have a crisis infrastructure in place. And his own hotel took 24 hrs to provide maps of the interior. Apparently the government asked the commercial establishments to beef up their security but this was not done - why spend money on things that might never be needed. The Taj employed two of the group without checking their backgrounds, etc.
All this begs the question - Do we as a nation really deserve statesmen. We cannot look beyond our own noses and still expect our representatives to have "vision". We cannot keep the footpath in front of our houses clean. Some of our industries don't want to pay taxes but want subsidized land. Look at the road outside UB City. Vijay Mallya can lobby the government for 4% ST on ATF, but can't get the BBMP to put a decent footpath and a proper road in front of his landmark building.
In a way it is good that this round of violence hit the rich and the famous (I just wish no one had died and I don;t condone terrorism) and not the common man in buses and trains. Once rubbish lands in Mr.Tata's and Mr. Oberoi's backyard, they will force the government to clean up. Let's see what the media does; they want this not to be forgotten - yet they will be the first to move on to the next sound bite. They let 1993 be forgotten as well.
Sorry to write such a pessimistic note. But I really wonder why people like Mr.Karkare give up their lives for an ungrateful people.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Nothing to beg or brag about.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/express-editorial-deadly-confusion/392070/
I had just tried to do it " Johr ka jatka dheree se lage style". You how it is with children when a sweet dream is shattered. How can we salute a force who is responsible for 200 deaths.? You would say the deaths would have been more. I say the deaths would have been nil if were vigilant and the people at Nariman House had reported the irregulars to the police.
Regarding the Israle's their record in Hostage Crisis is very dismal. They have a long list of
hostages killed.
Regarding my pants color, I am one of those who is not a fool and do not pretend to be a man of steel. I am affraid.
Just for afterthought:
You remember,even before the commando operation the first force to reach the Hotel (Taj) were the fire fighters and they rescued people from the balcony windows without any arms!!!!!!!!!!
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
NSG and security costs
Sri, security costs for corporations will increase going forward. It is a shared responsibility. Multiple levels of security is needed and it is not just corporates alone. There has to be clear specifications of minimum security requirement of establishments also. I think the staff of Taj did a good job given the situation. Even the survivors tell the good tale.
If this happens in Bangalore...
- Can we atleast realise, that our khaki policeman, perhaps need a bit more training, slimming and co-ordination?
- Dont we need some kind of emergency system where Bowring and Voctoria Hospitals are the last places victims will go to, and instead Mallay, Hosmat, Manipal and such places will offer full support?
- Is that joke of a fire engine, really gonna reach more than 4 floors?
- And how, on planet earth are we going to control our already clogged streets to make way for special vehicles? I am sure it will take 24 hours for the army to reach the core, through the traffic jams!
- Can we have maps available at each high rise building, with emergence exits etc etc.?
The problem with all our attacks I have noticed is the that after doing some immideate damage control, the govt. goes back to sleep. What did Mr Patil do after the previous round of attacks? Did any ONE thing change for mumbai police? Mr Patil has let the country down and is not capable of being a home minister. I am sure if he continues he will loose the election for congress.User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Sitting Target ?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think NSG & Marcos did a reasonably good job given that they had no idea of the ground realities & had to start work almost from scratch - they only had the benefit of good training & the necessary skills. Also, they were larger in nos., but the enemies were formidable, die-hard trigger-happy fanatics.
I think the very large no. of casualties & deaths were due to delay in getting them to the various spots late - this was vital. Over-reaction is always better than under reaction, in any emergency. The state & central govts MUST ALWAYS prepare for the worst at start itself. Those six-seven hours could have saved many, many lives, surely.
An operation that might have taken them say, 24 hrs has now taken well over 65 hrs & many more people had to die as a result.
Nitin...
If you have seen any of the floors in Taj or Trident, they are narrow, long and have tons of rooms and doors on both sides. Now when you are in a narrow corridor, and a terrorist on the other side, it is very hard to dig through the corridor, as only a certain no. can go at a time. And at the same time the terrorists are returning fire.
Its a bit like the move "300" - where the persians are channeled into a narrow entrance and then attacked one by one.
Also, there are civilians and guests around (some as hostages), shooting isn't the first option, you have to first try and get them out alive. Each floor has many entrances and exits, and is very complicated in layout. I have got lost a while back in a star hotel.
MARCOS, if you asked me were still very quiet about thier operation. Unlikes the NSG, they seemed to come and done thier job very queitly. What we see in the media is a very small bit of them, what happened behind the scenes we have NO idea. How much control were they given? Did marcos have to join hads with NSG, and what did they really do - we wont know.
I dont belive any other country could have done better in such situations. I only feel that the time taken to deploy elite forces was far too long. And this can really make a difference.
I also belive that the local police, were ill equipped to event "manage" the situation untill the NSG and MARCOS came into the picture.
A bit like in road accidents, such instances too have a Golden Hour, and if not dealt with properly can lead to complications.
As far as clothing is concerened, I still feel bad for NSG - they don't seem to have great helmets, boots and jackets. What is inspring is that yet, they do not crib and get straight to work at any such place.
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
guarding the coast or terrorists
Was ISRO and NRSA busy on the Moon?
If one goes through the capable satellites of ISRO and National Remote Sensing Agency at:
http://www.isro.org/sat.htm
one realises that ISRO has the capability in the form of remote sensing sattellites of the CARTOSAT series.These satellites give a resolution of 2.50 meters. In addtion to this you have satellites with USA and France for 1.0 meter resolution.
One remembers when Bill Clinton paid a visit to India as President, the hotel - as per reports- room's wall was inserted with technology that one could get a shadow and sound from the other side. This is capturing the ground truth in the remote sense.
Why was this not used?? No time? Well, the NSG had the time in its hand :They were late at the least by two hrs.
1.0 They had a slow plane.
2.0 They took off late.
So what was briefed to them on the plane?
Any body know that the Heritaze structures have a database of digital maps? I mean they are not found at the reception of a hotel but can be transfered in soft form.
The National Security Agency should have had that database ready. From Tajmahal to parliament to prominent buildings. The Oberoi and Nariman House are not prominent but the Tal Hotel is. Even Rahul Gandhi's Back-ops Company is right adjacent.
http://www.rediff.com/money/2004/jun/24rahul.htm
http://www.rediff.com/money/2004/may/28rahul.htm
So ultimately it is kudos to the firemen and hotel staff for least casualties as the NSG chief says that everybody was killed before we arrived. We only killed the terrorists like encounter specialists and santized the place.
When is the Holy river immerssion?
Nitin Jhanwar
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
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NSG's delay...
Firstly, why did it take 2 hours for VRD (CM of Maharastra) to call Home ministry.
Secondly, how can it take 1 hour for them to get to the aiport at 11 PM - did they run out of deisel? Can't traffic police clear traffic, cant they use choppers - its delhi for gods sake!
Now, if an IL 76 is stuck in chandigar, why does it have to be the only option? Delhi I am sure has billions of planes sitting on the tarmac. Why not use 2 of Indian's A320s which are faster and quicker than the IL 76s?
Lastly, at 5 am in the morning, how can it take 1 hour to get to Taj from the airport?
The govt. showcased it apathy, ineffiecnt and typical "araam-se" attitude. That is what is annoying, disgusting and painful to see.
Learning from this I would like to see the following steps:
Setting up a NSG unit in every major city. Setting up a dedicated emergency plan, where problems like finding a plane doesnt arise. And conducting regular mock drills, to ensure that these plans do not fail.
Lastly, stop using NSGs to give Z class security to "VIPs" Its absurd. While a few men/women enjoy machines guns, we have to rely on underpaid, over weight, unarmed guards!
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Deletd
I am responsible
Have we forgotten what we are fighting for?
What did we do, for them to hate us so much? Why does one human, feel alienated enough to murder a hundred others. Why would a man want to spend his life in such hatred and distain?
Has it become a political battle, where we have forgotten days wihtout terrorsim as threat to daily life? And lastly, why is there no end to this solution?
Whilst, we are breeding a force that puts its lives in front of others (Call them SPG, MARCOS..NSG whatever), ever question why they are doing so - and have we ever though of maybe attacking this problem from other directions too?
How do we solve this problem - by countering a heavier force, which we keep adding to coz so are the attackers. Or can we try a multidimensional approach, where we build a strong force but also try to dig to the root of the problem.
I wonder what Gandhi would have commented on these times.
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Politicians are opportunists
Deleted
Ill equipped police
Time to put Pak on notice: US security expert
Live Terrorist caught by MP.
but the fact of this incident is that the only live terrorist caught was by the
Maharastra Police -Read- Mumbai Police.
It was starlight and street lights so they had the advantage over MARCOS et al with respect to
visibility, I guess. Lucky fellows, could see the bullets blazing out from the AK-47, so they side stepped?
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
terrorism knows no religion
Why Blame ISRO /NRSA ?
I think it would be somewhat unfair to hold ISRO & NRSA for any lapses. We do not even know if their services had been requested in this matter (I have not come across any report suggesting that such a request had been made).
Such a force was unavailable nearby & again, we are back to the same question that we keep asking - why was there so much delay in their coming ?I feel that the NSA should have used database/s that were already available & also requested ISRO /NRSA's assistance since they have the capability to track an area with their satellites with high resolution & accuracy.
The Police forces in most countries (USA, France, UK included) do not carry machine guns with them, but ordinary pistols. They usually maintain some heavier guns for emergencies, but even these were not enough as the enemy had far more firepower. When the enemy is well trained & has a wide choice of arsenal at his disposal, the police cannot be expected to take them on, & a superior force is needed.
As Narayan rightly mentioned, in such very urgent situations, any fast /available civilian aircraft could have been used to get them to mumbai from delhi, but this was not done.
All this again emphasizes the same thing - Our preparedness was extremely poor, & therefore, our response was belated.
Pistols not enough?
Regardless of all these brave examples, phsycological impact is minimal if you see a cop with a baton or a .303 bolt action. You cant even put up a fight of prevention till help arrives. You cant even hurt the terrorists. Assume smaller cases where you have single terrorist in a hostage situation where a pistol would help. Not all incidents need to be calamities or need NSG flying in. You may be able to some damage in the golden hour. In fact you arent doing the cop any favour to his confidence by giving him a baton and asking him to prevent any kind of incident beyond a lathi charge or firing in the air. You have to give the people the tools to do the job and then hold them accountable.
The boss is NOT always right
Holding ISRO and NRSA not responsible because their expertise in the form of government employees and organisation was not called for is absurd.
Its like saying that the IAF is NOT responsible for the debacle of Kargil Martyr's because the Army did not want it. They wanted to prove that the Bofors is a capable gun.
Or like what the Home Minister did " Vilas rao asked for 200 NSGs so I will send 200, not one more or less" Its called red tape to save ones ass. Also its what the children play " follow the leader"!
What you are saying is more illiogical than what the politicians are doling out.
Their is always a "Manual for Emergencies" in every set up,including in terrorist and heritaze emergencies.ISRO and NRSA too are part of the setup.
Strategic setup and are responsible to the Crisis Management Group of GOI-read Government of India. I will leave it at that.
Nitin Jhanwar
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
ISRO /NRSA's Involvement
First of all, I am not sure who you referred to as "boss" in the title ? I hope it was the home minister or the defense minister. If you are referring to one of us here, I think that would be incorrect as we are all civilians & have the same resources to derive ideas from for our comments - just as you or anyone else !
I am also unsure what you meant when you stated "Holding ISRO and NRSA not responsible because their expertise in the form of government employees and organisation was not called for is absurd" - I had not mentioned that their services were "not called for". What I had stated was that their services may not have been requested, & hence, it would be unfair if we held them responsible.
As far as I know, during an emergency such as this, the state (home ministry) requests resources from the central govt since only they (state authorities) would be in a position to gauge the magnitude or scale of the event, at least at the beginning. Even in cases of natural calamities, the first appeal usually comes from the local authorities, following which the central govt responds. I may be wrong, but news reports usually suggest this as the chain of command that is generally followed during emergencies.
Once things are better known of course, the central govt (home ministry) takes charge & uses resources available as needed. If ISRO /NRSA were not contacted & their services never requested, then effectively, they would not have jurisdiction & might even be held responsible for interference since their services were never requested in the first place.
In any event (including war), there has to be a command structure that decides what resources to use based on availability, the ground situation, & of course diplomacy & international relations, etc.. This command center appears to have been non-existent & valuable time was lost.
I will try to clarify further with yr example of IAF. If the army did not want air force on the field, their request will go up to the chief of the armed forces & then he would take a decision with the defense minister's consent as the ministry has to decide this - this procedure is the same in most countries.
Another example - During the Chinese incursion in 1962, the air force was not allowed action by the politicians at that time since they did not want the war to escalate beyond control, & also because they were ill-prepared, & knew the superiority of the Chinese air force.
It may be true that ISRO /NRSA has a "Manual for Emergencies" & also, that they are part of the setup, but it may be worth checking what the manual actually states - Are they required to respond directly without being called in by the command center, or if such a command center does not exist, are they mandated to act without anyone calling them in or authorizing them ?
If so, then yes, they can also be held accountable. If the manual does not state this, then I dont think we can apportion blame on them, can we ?
Where was google maps?
The Gate of India and Heritaze structures fall in the Central Goverenment Department. No department acts diretly.e,g, ISRO and NRSA reports to the Department of Science and Technology or Space. Their representative is there in the crisis mangement group of GOI. Also there is something called delegation of power.
Its another matter that after Mr Karekare was felled everybody got their act together. Too late.
By the type of command structure you are describing NRSA must have got the go ahead after the
episode was over, if at all. The height of irony would be that NRSA is going ahead with providing the images because it has a written mandate?
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
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ISRO, NRSA & Google
I am not sure how necessary or how useful surface mapping would have been once the terrorists had holed up within those three buildings. I dont think they have capabilities to scan within buildings from space satellites - the CCTVs would have been the best, & were used in Taj, to some extent.
What may have been useful were floor plans from ASI, but again, the delay /confusion in the response activities did not bring these to the site in ample time, if ever they were.
If contingency response mechanisms had been in place & had worked well, printed copies of such plans would have been ready at site even before NSG had arrived there, & this may have greatly assisted their response.
Natural Resources
Its called remote sensing (interpretation of mageries from space) and the rays that get reflected (Spectograph) are analysed for their properties. The human body,arms and ammunition also reflects a particular wavelengh back.CCTV can be used when the power is turned off?
Do you know what is the Crisis Management Group consist of? Right from the PMO to the Secretaries of major ministries. In which ministry does ASI or GSI fall?
I also remember that here in Jaipur the Army had particularly taken interest in the Urban Scenario because they are building a GIS platform based map of the city to monitor/act in case of emergencies. Mumbai must also have it.
Its surprising why defend the governements so called confusion or knee jerk reaction?
A spade is a spade.
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
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Eyewitnesses
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
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Citizen protection in Bangalore
I have choice words which i will not use on this forum.
Lack of political will
People of Mumbai are threatening to stop paying taxes as a means of expressing their bitterness, over the issue of inadequate protection.
It is very clear that the verdict of people of India is that government has failed due to lack of commitment on their (Governments) part, in stemming terrorism. Political will is absent due to corruption. The current drive coxing the increasing Indian professional fraternity to vote by organizations like Janagraha, Votede India etc is a sad commentary on the elite failing to vote. For democracy to succeed the elite should vote in good numbers.
There seems to be lot of brain storming in the Praja platform on how the NSG operations could have been done better. My 5paise on a suggestion is why the NSG could not have tried to catch the terrorists alive, by using tear gas instead of bullets?
Of course the NSG is utilized solely for the protection of our beloved politicians in power.
Canine curses vs Isreli honour
How did we vote these people to power?
IDS, The recent squabbles
Yes, its a feeling of shame, when we see such people elected to power. But honestly, do we have a choice?...
Now in the upcoming elections, who can we really vote for, who will make a difference?.....Looks like we have no-one!...what if NO-body turns up to vote? Will see Cong & BJP being thrown out of the elections?...will we see someone else enter?....We need change - and we need some one younger, energetic and corruption-free to lead this country.
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Feeling of shame
These guys will never deliver
These guys are NEVER going to change. Look at them - right now, when the WHOLE country is looking for change they have the most laid back attitude.
After 9/11, bush did that whole drama of picking up a megaphone and yelling - it boosted his image, people felt good. What did Dr M Singh - do? Nothing. His address to the nation was more like a bed time story!
The diplomacy, the apathy and the ineffieceny is embedded in thier systems. We need change - we need change NOW and these guys are NOT going to give it. Nor do I belive BJP will do anything better. We need someone new, someone young and someone with a sense of achievement not in terms of corruption!
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Another reason for no-war
ISLAMABAD: A hoax call that was made to Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari last week by a man who pretended he was Minister for External Affairs Pranab Mukherjee and who spoke in a “threatening” tone, fuelled anxiety on Saturday about the potential for an accidental nuclear war in the region in such a situation.
The next day, ISI chief Lt. General Shuja Pasha told journalists at a briefing that at the first sign of military aggression from India, the Pakistan Army would withdraw forces from its western border and redeploy them in the east.
Ms. Rehman did not explicitly deny that the call was a hoax, but said in her statement that the “so-called hoax” was traced to a phone number in the Ministry of External Affairs in New Delhi.
The Indian side believes the caller identification particulars were “manipulated” by the use of sophisticated technology as “no call was made from India” to the Pakistan Presidency that day.
Source
Now we know why we should not go to war with Pakistan. Pakistan is stuck with a lame duck govt and a proxy called democracy. The politicians dont count for anything in that country and are basically impotent. ISI Wants the war desperately and are trying their best to get the war started. They are trying every stunt in their book (including hoax calls) to weasel their way out of the beating they are getting on the western front from both the US and fundamentalists. The fundamentalists are threatning to pull the plug on ISI and army if they cant stop the US pummelling. ISI needs a diversion and counted on their old friends, LeT. We now have pakistan by the balls no need to go for the kill just squeeze when needed for maximum effect.
At last we are getting smart
New Delhi is aware that the ISI will continue to make attempts to sow misinformation to bring about a situation in which western countries would lose sight of the main issue at hand — bringing to book the culprits responsible for the Mumbai blasts and dissuading elements from planning terror attacks — in favour of an approach that says, “Okay little boys stop fighting.”
Source
At last we are able to use our brains to outwit them. I hope we staff our strategic affairs department with more intelligent people instead of dimwits whose only response everytime is to pump up the testoserone.
war - a dumb option
Narayan - You have stipulated 50 as the age limit for politicians. Well, that counts me out then, sigh :))). Well, I'll limit myself to dispensing gyaan. There's no age limit for that, right?
I liked these two articles which appeared in TOI, and decided to open two separate forum topics based on them. Perhaps you would like to take a look.
http://bangalore.praja.in/discuss/forums/2008/12/indistan-interesting-concept
http://bangalore.praja.in/discuss/forums/2008/12/vote-confidence
Muralidhar Rao
not real war..
similar to what is shown in the opening of 'clear and present danger' where a drug lords home is completely destroyed by precision bombing..from a out of sight f-16
They use tech to target innocent people..why cant the govts give them a taste of their own medicine!
Then if pak govt protests..we can say 'please provide solid proof'
All options on Table !
After news analysis from various media houses and listening to TV channels, seems we are not looking things from 16000 feet perspective but from a small hilltop.
War on terror should be multi-dimensional rather than just either a security or administration/governance issue. Also in the discussions either it is pro-war sentiments or anti-war sentiments. Each one has its own merits and consequences. We are discussing things in isolation rather discussing in totality.
I have not heard a middle ground on war issue. I think we should grow up a little bit and feel mature enough to discuss and take a decision on issues like war. If I were to formulate a public opinion or build a public opinion I would direct the discussions with following questions:
- Do we need a war to keep terror attacks at bay?
- How fast we can draw up the list of risks and consequences?
- Can we bring all the political colors to be unanimous in our military response?
- Can we be sure of directed results?
- In the event of deciding to go for a war, are we ready for a war?
- Can we quickly fix our internal rapairs and new additions in our security apparatus?
Going to war should be our sovereign decision not anybody's else. Also we should not be fighting other countries agendas. Even if we join, it should be in India's own strategic Interest.Can we avoid armed conflict?
Meanwhile, I agree with Syed on internal security apparatus. It is definitely not world class and it needs to be beefed up. A lot of anger in the country today is to get this sorted out. We cant ignore this in the war against terrorists who want to destabilize the country and create divide. I also agree we should not fight other countries agenda. We never went to war because 9/11 happened but 26/11 has hurt citizens of our country. They have come home and taken on our families. It is important this is kept in mind when taking any action.
Intrestingly a lot of supporting actors in these attacks are inside India. Wonder what their motivation is. I would think it is the same poverty and money that draws them to get involved in these.
Another phone call?
This will result in building up of the Paki army near Indian border and since the -show the world-offensive is going on the terrorists will think the Paki army is coming for them.
We can see a civil war in Pak.That what we want, no?
Being civilians ourselfs.
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
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Timing!!!
Its a movie based on the Kargil "war" .
Amitabh Bachan's unit is entrusted to retake the Tiger Hill. He is playing an Army col.He instructs his unit -headed by Ritick (?) Roashan playing a captain or major- to scale the tiger hill. The Col. says that he will give divertory fire from the opposite side of the Hill upto 4.00 o'clock. By this time the boys should start climbing. But due to some reason the boys are ON TOP of the Hill by 4.00 o'clock. (They were supposed to be CLIMBING).
The Paki insurgent (No regular paki army fought) noticed that the cover shelling had stopped at 4.00o'clock. He reasoned quite correctly that the attack must be coming from the other side. So IF the captain and his team were climbing at that time they would have been masacred. But since they were already on top of the hill it was a close win.
So " The boss is NOT always right" .
Even there were reports of the army of both nations colluding.
That doen't mean that one presses the nuclear button without the consent of The President but a stray airforce plane could have bombed the Tiger Hill. Anyways Migs are crashing for technical snags.
Similarly in the sixty hours of Mumbai holocast the MARCOS could have gone to Karachi, I mean they have the beards.
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
I told you so
Pakistan on Monday rejected India's demand to hand over three terrorists and criminals, including underworld don Dawood Ibrahim, saying that action would be taken against individuals found involved in terrorist activities under Pakistani law.
Source
Is there a category more tha Z+ for security?
http://switch3.castup.net...
nJ
-nJ-
919462900144
www.nitinjhanwar.biz
Impressive video
mere legislation is not enough.we want dedicated action
Closer...