[Forked off from a comment on this "road crossing" post. {blr_editor}]
Silkboard, Your mention of "Oh yeah, the job of taking initiatives is best left to the citizens" really amused me - whether you said that in a sarcastic sense or otherwise.
Praja should begin unearthing the primitive most cause for all problems that it finds in the society around it. If there's a road-crossing problem in Bengaluru, and the same doesnt exist in Jaipur, for instance, there is a way in sight to find what that root cause could be. If there's more rash driving, illegal-cab-hiring and such nasty things happening on the roads of Bengaluru, and not Chennai, for instance, there's a cone of light pointing towards something more primary to this phenomenon than mere failure amongst politicians/representatives/cops etc. Its because of a systemic failure in the state, and in the country.
There is an uncontrolled migration of people into Karnataka, and mostly into Bengaluru. Our system has miserably failed in acting tough on monitoring this migration into Karnataka, let alone controlling it to limits that actually might be necessary. Praja with its presence in multiple towns of this country should try pouring pressure on governances across India. The polity of India is in urgent need to realise that people need to stay where they belong and make a good living, instead of migrating to find better places for the same apparent cause. No land in this country is cursed to be unable to give a good life to its people!
No matter what the size or kind of issues it sees around it, Praja needs to visualize the problem at this level, and realize that, this, only this, could be the holistic approach to solving our problems. Otherwise any attempts (however good, and laudable) could just resemble closing the holes in a weak balloon. You'll never fully solve the problem!
So as an action plan, I would suggest Praja bring its contacts into the governance into play here, and ensure its talks with governance in future have this tone. Among other things, Praja should press the public bodies for a strict monitoring and thereby control over migration into Karnataka (Bengaluru too) - regardless of the department it happens to deal with - be it the Police, the Legislature, or the Corporation, the Transport authority, or even the Weather department! Talk about basic issues, and try and help them realize the issue. The problem is half solved when you've understood the problem.
-Nijavaada
Forward this Forum topic
Learn the local language
Why does poor god have to forbid this? In any case, if you would have to go to Punjab/Gujarat or anywhere - then it would be prudent to learn Punjabi/Gujarati or Marathi.
Don't we encounter only French sign boards in Paris?
This is a discussion, answers anyone?
While I agree with a few points which you have put forward, I still do not see any reasonable answers or explanations to the points I have put forward. I know that Hindi is NOT the "National Language", that it is essential for all languages to flourish in India, that there is nothing "Parochial" about speaking in Kannada.
But, do we have an acceptance from Nijavaada that this entire discussion on migration is only about language and culture? I asked you this question a few posts back, but you have chosen not to respond yet. Mcadambi, have you had a chance yet to read the two comments in the links I provided? If you have done any further "research" on the topic, you would know that several Tulus and Kodavas are not happy being 'our first cousins'? Do you accept that apart from an anti-Hindi sentiment, there is an equally strong (maybe stronger) "anti-Konga" and "anti-Gulti" sentiment too? Do you have a solution or any ideas w.r.t. the armed forces, which need a common language (ANY common language) to communicate?
Is stopping or restricting migration a reasonable course of action? Is there any other solution you have to offer, considering that the city (and the state) will collapse if there is an exodus of "outsiders", and will stagnate and gradually wither, if there is a moratorium on further inbound migration?
army & languages
I would normally have liked to keep out of these discussions, since most of it has been gone through before, and language and culture generally tend to evoke emotions that end up overriding rationality.
But, I couldn't help but imagine a scenario where the valient late Maj Sandeep Unnikrishnan, a Malayali, brought up in Bangalore, commanding the NSG commandos (drawn largely from Haryana) in the Taj rescue mission in Mumbai, were to be speaking a babel of tongues. They would all have been cattle fodder for the terrorists.
Of course, our 'mannina makkalu' will say each state should have its own SSG outfits - communicating only in Kannada (The upside is that, in a similar situation, the Pak handlers will not be able to monitor the goings on). But then, how will you prevent the Coorgis, Tuluvites, Konkanas, and others stretching the logic a little beyond?
Muralidhar Rao
Rajaji on hindi
The pitamaha of Indian liberals was not a big supporter of hindi:
"Again, Munshi, a Hindi enthusiast, could scarcely warm to Rajaji's campaigns against Hindi, which many of Rajaji's north Indian supporters also found hard to defend."
http://www.rediff.com/news/oct/31raj2.htm
Armyspeak
State security is far ahead of central security
I think a well endowed anti-terror operations maintained by the State will be far more effective than the centre. Here is the proof:
Karnataka has handed out death sentence to the Deendar Anjuman who blasted churches in Bangalore:
http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/30/stories/2008113057590100.htm
While our "secular" government could not even remove a hair from Afzal Guru.....
I read that the kin of those killed in parliament attack have returned their medals. Inshallah we will be more secure with an NSG in Bengaluru!
North Karnataka and South Karnataka
to cut a branch, dont sit on it!
@ Murali,
While your expression of fear over the chance of terror inside Karnataka is appreciable, I am afraid your underlying logic is far from reality indeed. If you had taken a closer look at this thread from the beginning, it'd be clear to you as to what is the difference between the deltas found within Karnataka, and the delta between Karnataka and another Indian state, and therefore their peoples & their languages.
There is more harm done by having an NSG inside Karnataka which speaks this artificial "common" language called Hindi than by having everyone speak Kannada, and perhaps call it an SSG. The Kodavas, the Tuluites, the Konkanis - all accept Kannada more than some of us here as their language - let alone comprehend it and speak it far better than many of us here. Fearing they would offend an SSG protecting the entire of Karnataka would be taking this thread far from reason!
But it is essential to realise here that its the logic behind your comment that has stretched this beyond - beyond a reasonable logic; beyond the truth that Kannada is what binds everyone in Karnataka with the strongest bond, and nothing else. So it becomes natural for an (N/S)SG to officiate in Kannada inside Karnataka.
In fact thinking on more practical lines, everyone in the NSG at present is pretty well conversant in English, and that actually serves as the strongest bonding language in its operation. Bringing in a virtual bond of Hindi into picture here (perhaps sinfully supported by some Hindi movies again!) is indeed parochial thinking, because it betrays the cause of English in our society today. What we need to realise is that while we understand that we need to make our systems self-sustenant and hence self-reliant on our languages itself, we cannot afford to betray English where we stand today. English gels NSG far better than Hindi today, tomorrow and until SSGs based on all languages are formed.
Hence my sincere suggestion is please dont fail to think beyond the system when all you want to do is correct the system itself! Which is basically why there are some questions/imaginations such as the one Murali has put up here.
-Nijavaada
We have enough divides to make anyone's head spin
North Indian - South Indian, North KA - South KA, Tulu - KA, Kodava - KA, Tamil - KA, Marathi - KA, Marathi - North Indian, Marathi - South Indian, Telugu - KA, Bengali - Bihari, Assamese - North Indian, North Indian - Punjabi, Hindu - Muslim, Hindu - Christian, Assamese - Bihari, Intra Sikh, Shia - Sunni, Oriya - Bihari, Gorkha - North Indian, Gorkha - Bengali, .., ,, ,,
Whew, I am tired of typing!
"just because the army speaks in Hindi does it mean that 1 billion Indians have to forget their languages and culture?"
Now we're going around in circles. No one said that. All cultures in India must be preserved, but a culture can be preserved only if the people who constitute that culture are actually willing to display some pride in their culture, and actively follow their customs and culture. And this is something you cannot force people to do.
If our youth want Pizza and Burgers, or Paneer Butter Masala, we cannot force Dose or Idli down their throats. If our youth feel that speaking Kannada is "passe", and the "yo dude" English is "in", no one can hold a knife to their throat. If our youth have some feeling that Jazz/Pop and Ghajini-RNBDJ is "in" instead of Carnatic music, what can anyone do? If our youth will not dare to be seen in a "panche", and prefer denim, we can't disrobe them and make them wear "panche", can we? If the youth prefer discotheques instead of Yakshagana, beer instead of "majage", can anything be done?
An unfortunate state of affairs no doubt. But what was the purpose of my rant above? The emphasis I placed on youth was because, 15 years down the line, they are the ones who will predominantly define "Bangalore culture". The loss of our culture that we are seeing really does not have much to do with migration into Bangalore. Since it seems that no one is willing to answer my questions and enlighten me here, I will make my point straight away:
Migration is helping millions of locals get jobs. One "IT professional" getting employment in Bangalore, provides indirect employment to 4 other people. Most of these indirect jobs are taken up by locals, at least 60%+ of these jobs. I have already made a point a few posts above, that this discussion is all about culture and language, and not about strain on resources. Let us stop blaming outsiders for all our ills, and do some introspection as to why we are increasingly seeing that the fabric of the city is changing. And let us realize that this phenomenon is not unique to Bangalore alone.
English in the NSG?
Spry
Educate me, please...
While we pat ourselves on the back for prosecuting the Deendar Anjuman, should we not pause and think about the attacks on churches carried out by Bajrang Dal? Or do you consider Hindu-on-Christain violence an unpunishable crime? Or perhaps our state government is afraid of being labelled "Secular" if they removed a hair ot two off the Bajrang Dal thugs..
Am sorry for this off-topic remark but I could not let a disingenuous (at least to my mind) remark pass.
Can't wait for this thread to degenerate into a discussion on the serious chasm that exists between Kannadigas with the horizontal mark on their foreheads and those with the vertical mark on their foreheads.
These attempts to divide ourselves would be funny if it was not so serious.
tired?
Some people could get tired of typing, some tired of speaking/shouting, and some people will get tired of correcting our own youth as well. But what will remain tireless is the need for correction, the need to kill entropy in life, and the need to swim upstream when there is a need.
Talking about what is "in" and what is not, I think Mr. Vinay - it is definitely your mistake if your kids do something that you dont expect them to do. If you too prefer they like beer over majjige, thats okay, but if you dont like that, and your kids do, its your mistake, and its a shame to the society as well! "ಗಿಡವಾಗಿ ಬಗ್ಗದ್ದು, ಮರವಾಗಿ ಬಗ್ಗೀತೇ" - is a proverb you might want to (re-)understand here.
If you yourself havent been able to tell your kids what right, and what wrong things migration could bring in to us, as always, the entropy - mostly inclined towards the wrong (!) will wrap itself around your kids. And then the question you've posted here comes to your mind. So clearly, the answer lies in what you yourself have (not) done. Anyway, I dont mean anything personal here.
-Nijavaada
okay, time for a break
I think we will all agree that we have come off from our commitments of fact based and construtive discussion, Its best to close this thread.
Its good to see strong opinions and otherwise, helps us know each other. While it is always hard to stay constructive or fact based in these emotive discussions, I would welcome Nijavaada or anyone else to go beyond Vaada (hey, just a friendly dig :) organize meetings on behalf of Praja with someone either in GoK's department of culture, or ministry of Urban Development to talk about migration from either of the the two popular angles - growth while preserving culture, and sustainable development.
I dont mind
@ Silkboard
I dont mind.. pls go ahead & close this thread at Praja's will. But not after saying facts were not kept on the table in these discussions! I do hope this thread has been constructive to more people than that have participated in it.
-Nijavaada
@mcadambiyou
@mcadambi you wrote:
//According to people like you, the rest of Indians have
//to accept that Bollywood + Cricket + Hindi = Indian and //other combinations such as Sandalwood (Kannada movies) +
//Carnatic music = Non Indian. According to you the former
// is "cosmopolitan" or whatever that means, and the latter
// is "hatred" and "parochial".
I never said that. Please reread my posts.
Indians are free to choose what they want, where the want to live(the whole point of this thread about migration is moot). Whole essence of what I am saying one shouldn't make any section of people from a different part of our country unwelcome because they don't speak a language. This is what fuels hatred. We are already seeing that in Assam, Maharashtra etc. where "outsiders" are unwelcome.
It is constructive no doubt
Kids are not kids forever. If the parent "prefers" majjige, that does not necessarily mean the kid must prefer it too, when he is no longer a kid. What the 30 year old "kid" does is entirely his prerogative.
Since this thread is most likely going to be closed now, I will probably not get a chance to have my points answered here. But I guess we'll continue to keep meeting in other net-forums...
Hate, Suspicion !
Nijavaada, Mcadambi and others,
We seems to argue endlessly about greatness and requirement of Kannada, Karnataka for kannadigas only etc, but our narrow mindedness and narrow thinking is taking us into to the extreme of hate and suspicion. I will give you 2 recent examples.
Last year, myself and my family went to attend a "UGADI" festival organized by Kannada Sangha in US. Since we were wearing our traditional Muslim attire, believe me everybody except for few looked surprised, dumb founded and looked at as though they were seeing some aliens. Many inquired where we are from? It seems they were not ready to see a Muslim presence in the Kannada Sangha events. I may also have to take the blame that muslims also don't participate in such events due to religious tone and rituals. Nevertheless, it was a good experience of talking to people in Kannada and answering their queries.
One of my friend who attended a Praja-like gathering, also conveyed the same experience that some of the participants were very uncomfortable with his presence during that gathering.
In another incident at my workplace, there was an intern, a Gujarati, who worked with us for few months. In one of the conversation, I introduced myself and told him that I am from Bangalore. his response was oh "You are from PAKISTAN". I inquired about him and found that he did worked in Bangalore. When I started querying more about where his company and where he lived in B'lore, he realized his initial impressions were not right.
The point is, in last couple of decades, ordinary citizens are being conditioned to look at the things from very narrow and restricted spectacles. We seem to defining the patriotism and 'sons of the soil' on misconstrued notions of false and incorrect state regionalism and national patriotism.
Look at the madness. Even Sir MV is not a true Kannadiga because he spoke Telugu at home. By that definition all the people who live in border areas like Kolar, Tumkur, Bellary, Raichur, Belgaum, North Kanara etc are all non-kannidagas because they don' speak Kannada at home? Are they?
No Nijavaada, Mcadambi, each one of them is no less a Kannadiga then yourself and any slogan shouting brigades. Do you think I am a less Kannadiga than anybody else on this forum?
Syed
Good point Syed, then I am not a Kannadiga either :-)
I wonder now, am I a Mannina Maga or not?
Multiculturalism is not parochialism
I doubt Bengaluru will go the same way of Maharashtra or Assam. I think A K Ramanujan's three language recepie is what keeps KA and Bengaluru moving along. There is enough space, both in the public sphere and personal sphere, for multiple linguistic / cultural and religious identities.
IMO, a clash occurs when there is a difference in the main ingredient in public life. It was Kannada Vs Hindi prior to 1965 and now again in the public sphere ( i mean offices, general society here) it is "Hindi cosmopolitanism" Vs "Kannadapolitanism". The former is just another recepie to morph Bengaluru into another Mumbai and the latter is a fervent and grassroots movement to preserve Kannada culture and still give necessary space for other identities.
Sure - i think it is great that we kannadigas get to compete and interact with the best in the world. But at the same time we must remember, as Mahatma Gandhi said, to keep all our windows open for winds from all directions, but refuse to be blown away by any.
Btw, Vinay, We iyengars speak hebbar tamil / mandyam tamil but we never refer to ourselves as Tamilians. Given that sankethi dialect is so inflected by Kannada, i am sure Sankethis would not see themselves different from other Kannadigas.
I don't see myself different..
Bias and prejudice
Bias and prejudice is about pre-formed notions and impressions. In our country, having seen east (born there), west (studied there) as well as south (now, and married to a Kannadiga), and then having lived abroad, I have had so many of my biases shattered so far that I can only wait for some members here to experience more and learn for themselves. The age of branding all Southies Madrasis and all Northies Hindi will probably take some time to get past us, but one day it will, so I hope :)
I guess the constructive ways of keeping cultural identity in times of migration driven growth would involve subtle though pocket-pinching measures to promote the local language and awareness. Hard talk tends to backfire, not because of bad intentions, but because such talk is easliy misguided into the realm of hates and suspicion that Syed talks about in a comment above.
Nijavaada - so we take it that you won't help setup some interesting meetings to help all of us know state government's words on the issues of cultural identity of the city and/or sustainable urban growth.
Vinay, you are right. These debates are constructive in that we learn and know of new perspectives. Recongnizing and living with all point-of-views is important, convincing and converting everyone else is not :)
Sankethi
re:I don't see myself different..
you wrote:
//I don't see myself different from other Kannadigas,
// being a Sanketi, but I was just wondering if some
// Kannadigas would see me as different from them?
Vinay, i don't see yourself that different from a Tamilian or and Andhrite for that matter. If you really see beyond the language, our way of life, values etc. would be very much similar and very much Indian. There are a lot of things we can relate to, a way of life ("culture") unique to India that we can relate to. It doesn't really matter wether we are sankethi, gowda, bramhin, reddy, iyer etc.; I think those walls are slowly coming down as we mingle and evolve.
On a general note..to everybody...As regards identity..I believe the identity of an individual is more importantly who he/she is as an overall person and his/her accomplishments and contribution to society. To me Tendulkar is an accomplised cricketer, Narayana Murthy is one of the best entrepeuners India has produced in recent times, same goes for Premji(in fact I got to know only last week that he is a Muslim, i was mistakenly thinking that he is a Parsi..but I honestly don't care..I just know him as an accomplished Indian businessman whom I would love to meet and learn from..BTW, i do not know where he is from). All I know about Sir M Vishweshwaraiah is that he was credited with building KRS Dam and was one of the greatest engineers of his time (little did I know that he spoke Telugu at home till somebody mentioned it in this thread..and it really does not matter..KRS is a standing testimony to his identity and greatness).
There are folks including me who mistake the famous Nandan Nilekani of Infosys to be a sindhi from the north because of his last name. Only a couple of years back did my cousin point out that he is from Karnataka (but does it really matter? people know him as the Infy head honcho and not by the fact that he is a kannadiga or he speaks kannada).
Culture is not a constant
bialterminal, I agree with you 100%
Silkboard, my case is similar to yours. Being a Sanketi, I was born in Chattisgarh, studied in Chennai, and then mainly Calcutta. I have spent a large portion of my working career in Europe and I am currently in Bangalore. I speak fluent kannada, Sanketi, English, Hindi, Bengali,Tamil and a few words of broken German. Over the past few years, I have been seeing that in Bangalore, and India in general, the "walls" are increasing day by day, and show no signs of abating. This is a matter of serious concern for me. As more economic development occurs, and the educated class increases, the issues of poverty, roads, pollution, etc. will gradually resolve themselves (it might take time, but it will happen). On the other hand, these "walls" which are being created have the potential of killing our country's progress more effectively than any Lashkar or any Qaeda can ever hope to.
narrow domestic walls
Can I perhaps conclude with the following verses from Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore's 'Geetanjali', incidentally composed sitting on the beaches of our own Karwar
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls,
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into dreary desert sands of dead habit,
Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever widening thought and action,
- - - - Into that heaven of freedom, my father, let my country awake!
Muralidhar Rao
talking about converting others!
@ Silkboard
and his mention about converting others.. when people have come together to install a change in the society around them, it is but doing a conversion by itself - and not to mention this might as well include converting thoughts/opinions of some people as well. Mere listening to people's thoughts and nodding one's heads is not what I guess Praja was meant for! Praja in my opinion is to serve as platform for constructive discussions and logical debates about topics that matter to all citizens and to the future of their respective towns or cities.
If cutting an ongoing discussion/debate short because of a minority's objections against the "direction" of such a debate, and with no supporting logic for doing so is the new trend @ Praja, I strongly oppose such a stance. This will be deleterious to what good Praja can otherwise do.
And as to Mr. Murali here, please dont be rhetoric in your comments and state what in your opinion are the narrow domestic walls here. If you indeed have to summarize and conclude, it has to say all that was said here, and not merely convey your innermost feelings and thoughts! Gurudev Rabindranath Tagore will surely not be impressed if his words are quoted in wrong contexts.
-Nijavaada
easy there!
globally too..
For those that think migration is something beneficial to a people, that, this, and all that.. please refer to this link:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/05/01/immigration.lens/index.html#cnnSTCText
and come to realize that migration isn't really all that healthy for anyone in this world. Illustrated here are many occasions of "unnecessary" immigration leading to uncomfortable situations for people worldwide.
-Nijavaada
are we confusing illegal Immigraion with leagal Migration?
If we do not want migration into Bangalore we should stop developmental activities, which attract the influx. If Bangalore is getting over crowded, one needs to discourage further developmental activities in Bangalore. Perhaps Other Cities can take the lead.
However is it the greed of some to attract business into Bangalore?
PSA
confused
@ PSA,
You seem to be confused again. For you're saying all the development activities that happen in Bengaluru are because we have (im)migrants into our city! Isnt this crap?! If you build an extra room or a neater toilet in your house, does it mean you're building it for a guest that you're expecting, or that you indeed needed it?! Which is more likely to be the genuine reason for this?! Please think responsibly! Please beware that there are no development activities happening in here, which cater specially to those that (want to) migrate into Bengaluru! There are none.
Besides, in my earlier posts on this thread (if you've read them fully) I've made it clear why migration inside India is unlike migration within, say, US or UK because of the huge difference between start and end points (of migration) in India than out there. An inter-state migration in India bears lot of semblance to migration across national borders elsewhere in the world. Remember - that is basically why we're a sub-continent, and not a normal country.
That aside, you're overly getting confused by words, rather than comprehending the context in which they are used. Immigration is after all the effect, and the cause for that is indeed migration - what this thread is about. It is but incidental that immigration (to you) happens only across national borders! Please be informed that it has a far more generic meaning in its true sense.
-Nijavaada
re: confused
//For you're saying all the development activities that
//happen in Bengaluru are because we have (im)migrants into
//our city! Isnt this crap?!
Not to launch a personal attack..but I strongly suggest that you read posts carefully before replying thus avoiding misinterpretation of what someone stated. If one reads PSA's post carefully it becomes quite apparent that he is referring to developmental activities in Bangalore that "attract" migrants..hence the developmental activities should be stopped. Now, I am not sure where you got the idea that he is claiming developmental activities happen because of migrants.
As far as US and UK internal migration being different that is not really true. Even in the US people migrate from interior states to other states/cities with better opportunities. Someone migrating from Wisconcin or Arkansas to NY city or SFO or Los Angeles is the equivalent of migrating from the smaller towns in India to a city like Bangalore. What is different? Well..what is different is that laws in US/UK are stricter where landlords & builders can't just convert entire city blocks into highrises to accomodate the additional influx of people. Residential buildings can't just be converted recklessly into commercial establishments. Bangalore and Indian cities in general are a different story in that respect.
Migration is a fact of life as old as the human race and that will not change.
//Immigration is after all the effect, and the cause for
//that is indeed migration - what this thread is
// about. It is but incidental that immigration (to you)
//happens only across national borders!
Immigration is typically understood by the majority of people as referring to "migration" of people accross national borders.
Migration is definitely not the cause for Immigration. Causes of people going to another region for settling - better opportunities, to escape from political conflicts&tyranny, escape from harsh weather conditions etc.
//An inter-state migration in India bears lot of semblance
//to migration across national borders
//elsewhere in the world. Remember - that is
basically why we're a sub-continent, and not a normal
// country.
How is that true when we are one country? Are you saying that India is a collection of Nations - please clarify. Since I definitely knew that your interpretation of sub-continent as stated above is incorrect I took the pains of looking it up online. Here is the definition I found on dictionary.com -> a large, relatively self-contained landmass forming a subdivision of a continent: the subcontinent of India.
The Tamilnadu Migrants
Radhakrishna from undripet in Tamil Nadu worked as a security guard in an apartment in Indiranagar. He lived in Babasaheb colony, Doopanahalli with wife pungadi. Pungadi works as a maid. The couples two children manikantam (17) and daughter Shashikala (13) are in Tamilnadu.”
Refer Page-2 TOI January 25, 2009.
These are Migrants from Tamil Nadu. Radhakrishna died in a road accident on January 24, 2009. at 6:00 AM, at 100ft road Indiranagar.
Radhakrishna has come to Bangalore for his lively hood. Some apartment complex which has come up in Indiranagar needed a security guard. Babasaheb colony is a dalit colony. Kannadigas may not be in competition there.
Nijavada avare yen madthira? Yen Heltira?
PSA
facts and what we can do about it!
@ bialterminal
You said: "Migration is a fact of life as old as the human race and that will not change."
Well my friend, death, of all the dreaded things in this world, is the most estabilshed fact of life too. Well, everyday, everyone on this world strives hard to avoid death, and work around this pretty well known fact of life. Whether it is good or bad for some, it is a fact, and its also a fact that man tries to defy it nevertheless. Otherwise, death prevails, and as the saying goes, entropy wins!
Migration, likewise, is a fact of life, that fortunately is undesirable in many ways. Now if some people accept it as a fact of life, or a way of life, that opinion will just have to change! You're extremely wrong if you insist it will not change.
And about development programs that "attract" migrants - my stand was to deny the existence of any such programs that attract migrants. There are no such programs that any state in the world runs to "attract" migrants, and fundamentally any such program can't literally mean anything! Can you enumerate any such programs that Karnataka might be running today? Stopping these could well be the most trivial responsibility of a govt. anyway!!
And to answer your doubt about being a sub-continent - I wish to reiterate here - that we're a subcontinent for a special reason, and that is because we have recognized the diversity among us, and formed a nation by uniting praantyas of different kinds, different cultures, and most importantly different languages. That way we're indeed a union of entities each of which individually display the characteristics of an independent nation. I wonder how your interpretations of this statement could be, but that is going to be your interpretation alone.
-Nijavaada
You want to deny the existence of a development programme.
Do you want to deny the existence of any development programme in Karnataka? Putting that statement in a straight manner you want to say that there is no development programme in Karnataka. Fare enough. There is no development programme in Karnataka.
Taking the case of Radhakrishna from Tamilnadu I suspect that the apartment owner also may be from TN. He got affordable labor from TN and put him in Babasaheb colony. This migration, KRV cannot stop or should krv be interested at all to stop migration? I do not think so.
If you Nijavaglu want to stop Migration try to get a suitable legislation passed. You are most welcome.
PSA
re: facts and what we can do about it!
You wrote:
//And to answer your doubt about being a sub-continent - I wish to reiterate here - that we're a subcontinent for a special reason,
//and that is because we have recognized the diversity among us, and formed a nation by uniting praantyas of different
//kinds, different cultures, and most importantly different languages. That way we're indeed a union of entities each
//of which individually display the characteristics of an independent nation. I wonder how your interpretations of this
//statement could be, but that is going to be your interpretation alone.
My Answer:
I hope facts presented get across to you, we are not known as a subcontinent because of the diversity amonst us. Here are some definitions from different sources -
1) a large and distinctive landmass (as India or Greenland)
that is a distinct part of some continent (http://dictionary.die.net/subcontinent)
2) A large landmass which is either smaller than a continent (such as Greenland), or part of an even larger continent (such as the Indian subcontinent). (http://www.allwords.com/word-subcontinent.html)
3) a large land mass, smaller than that usually called a continent; often, a subdivision of a continent, regarded as a geographic or political entity (http://www.yourdictionary.com/subcontinent)
Now, "political entity" is NOT something left open to interpretation and refers to India. If the Himalayan range didn't exist and the land was flat, there would be no "subcontinent".
Change
Change is the only constant. But humans don't like change.
I'm sure its not a breaking news that we all migrated from Africa! Human race has thrived on migration for the past 70,000 years! It is always the case that the current inhabitants of a land would oppose new comers. Nothing new in it. That was just what some unknown species did when humans migrated (all the way from Africa) and landed for the first time and settled in central and southern India ("Dravidans"?). These same people then opposed the advancement of another wave of migrants ("Aryans"?). And same goes on and on with multiple waves of migration in all directions....
Whether people like it or not, migration is going to continue till humans survive on this planet. And, there would be struggle between existing inhabitants and migrants so long as the former doesn't see the broader picture and embrace change.
Some more thoughts: Migration may be the cause of infrastructural bottlenecks, but the cause of migration is uneven development at a given time. Even development across a region/country/world is a myth. I thank God for that, as we've abused mother earth in the name of development at many places; let there be huge "undeveloped" land filled with nature and not man!
Probably migration would stop when wind would stop - the moment there is a perfect balance of environmental factors that cause winds.
Reality
I have not read all the posts above.
Migration in itself is not a problem, when the immigrants can contribute to the society they migrate to and make an effort to blend in. Resentment starts when there is no contribution from them and/or they start a parallel stream of their 'own society'/
I live in the UK. My parents are in Bengaluru. My mother speaks Kannada, can understand a bit of Hindi and English but cannot speak those languages.
In the past, she was at home in Bengaluru. Now, when she goes to the shops, malls etc, people speak to her in Hindi, English first and then in Kannada if they can speak Kannada - this is mainly in shopping complexes and malls and not the local grocery shops.
I don't understand why my mother who has been born and brought up in Karnataka needs to learn to speak another language or is made to feel inferior or a nuisance because she cannoy speak English. There are many like her who may start supporting MNS like groups if something is not done about it.. States were divided on the basis of language, foget other customs and traditions.
Most Inidans in the UK have blended well with the local populace, as compared to the Pakistanis or Bangladeshis. There are some exceptions, as there will always be. When most do not blend and some do, the locals have the right to feel aggrieved.
If I now decide to leave UK and mvoe to Italy or France, I am expected to learn the local language and contribute to their society, otherwise I cannot survive there or they would not accpet me. I don't understand why Bengaluru should be any different.
My friend from interior Punjb kept saying that this 'make everyone learn Kannada in Karnataka movement' was all wrong as it would inconvenience so many people - but then he changed his stance gracefully when I asked him whether my mother could move to his place and open a shop, able to speak only Kannada and not any other language. He said that she would not survive there ('will be kicked out') unless she can speak Haryanvi dialect, forget Hindi or Englsih and his town is of the size of Mysore.
No matter how many people write books explaining migration, its causes and effects etc, the reality is only those who do not end up making the locals resent them will be welcome, no matter what the reasons are. No one can stop it, but it is up to the migrants to make themselves acceptable, the onus is not on the locals. I have accpeted this in the UK and I do not expect them to spak in Kannada to me when I visit their hosptials or other government offices.
Someone above has said it
Someone above has said it does not make any difference to us if there were only two or three languages for all Indians and that we would not miss much if that were the case.
I am surprised and amused by such a statement. Why on earth would I not miss our literature (of the standard of highest number of gnanpeet awards) or our folk songs or our traditions that enable us all to feel 'rooted' somewhere? It would be the same for someone with a Konkani culture or someone speaking Marathi/Tamil etc. It is ignorance to say that we could do without all that, just for the sake of convenience.
''If you move somewhere, which is not your place, expect difficulties, as you need to learn to communicate with your adopted place and learn to appreciate their culture. If you don't like them, don;t go there. Do not go there and expect to learn your language and culture - then you are an invader or a conqueror not just a migrant'' - these are not my lines, but of a swiss woman in her sixties, who was talking about colonialism etc.
Nanna Muddina Bharata Deshada Praja..gale,
Preethiya Yella Praja..gale,
Eee nanna kannadada helikeyinda nimagella atheeva santhoshavaaguvudaralli sandehavilla. Thaavugalu Praja.in nalli kottiruva helikegala prakaara mathu NIJAVAADA avaru obbare hodedaaduthiruvudannu kandu, nanage atheeva dukha aaagi, naanoo saha, nanna anisikegalannu thamma paadaaaravindagalige arpisuva prayathnavannu maaduthiddene.
Satya, Katu Satya, Nija Satya, naavellaroo Bhaaratheeyaru mathu yella bhaaratheeyarigoo yelladaroo hogi, jhandaa hoodi, alliruva sukha sampathugalannu anubhavisuva hakkannu, namma samvidhaanavu kottide. Santhosha, athi santhosha., aaadare, thaavugalu illi nelasi, kannada thanavannu hammikollade, thammade aada chaapannu moodisuva prayatnagalu nadediveyalla, avu, avugalu, namma komalavaada hrudayavannu iridu, sahrudaya kannadiogarigellarigoo atheeva dukhavannuntumaadive. Nimagella namma nela beku, jala beku, sukha sampathugalu beku, namma sahrudayada bhaavanegalu beku AAADARE, namma samkruthi beda, namma bhaashe beda, namma sundara anisikegalu beda... Idu yaava dharma swaamy? Naavu yaavaagaloo heege iruvudu swaamy saadhyaguthilla. AAdudarinda, thaavugalu, namma jothege "Baduki, Baalalu Bidi" (Live and Let live - not Live and Let die)
Karnatakavu nooraru devarugala, devathegala, degulagala, bhaashegala, sundara thaanagala, soundaryavathiyara thavarooru, adara bhaashe kannada - haaduva bhashe sundara thaanagala aagara, siri sampathugala thavarooru mathu nammellarigoo bhaaratada mannannu hanchikondu, adaralli bele beledu, adannu kataavu maadi saviyuva adhikaara, namma bhaaratada samvidhaanavu yeredu kottide.
Kannadigaru yendendoo saha "athithi daivo bhava" annuva sahrudayaru. Yaardaroo baayaari manege bandare, naavugalu baree neeru koduvudilla aadare avarige ondu chooru bellavannooo saha kodutheve. Adu Kannadigara samskruthi, hirime mathu sampradaaya. Aaadare, illi, horagininda bandu nelesiruva namma snehitharu, athithi gala tharaha yochisuthilla - Aadudarinda, namage avarugala aachaara, vichaara, thamma bhaasheyannu namma mele horisuva prayathnagalu, thammade aada gumpugalannu kattitkondu adhikaarigala mele dabbalike maadi, avarannu thamma siri sampathugalinda khareedi maadi, thamage hege beko haage baalannu roopisikolluthiruva bagge, namma atheeva mathu theevratharavaada asamaadhaanagalu udbhavavaaguthiruvudannu thamma gamanakke tharalu ichisuthene. Athithigalu, "Daivo Bhava" haage gourvaaanvithavaagirabeku, akasmaath avarugalu Daivo badali DEVVO BHAVA aadare, avarugalannu 'athithi' padadalli, 'a' nirmoola maadidare yenu uliyuthado adannu maadabekaada sandarbha barabaaradu.
Nimmannu horage hoge yennuvudu bhaaratada samvidhaanada prakaara sariyaagalaaradu mathu virudhavaagabahudu.
Aaadare, BE A ROMAN WHILE YOU ARE IN ROME. Thalemaarugalinda kannadigaru horagininda bandiruvavarannu hondi kondu hoguthiddare - aadare indina paristhithi nodidare, 'onte kathe gnyaapakakke baruthade' mathu aanglara nenapoo aaguthade.
Identhaha hanebaraha swaamy? Horagininda bandiruvavaru illave illadiddare, ishtondu saarige bussugala vyavasthe bekaaguthiralilla, mara gidagalannu naashamaadi, horagininda bandiruvavara flashy caarugalige odaaadalu rashtegala nirmaana bekaaguthiralilla, namma ooru sundara hasiru thaanavaage uliyuthithu.. Heluthaa hodare bekaadashtide.
Namma koneya maathu - LIVE AND LET LIVE - BEWARE OF A LAYMAN'S ANGER - DO NOT EXPECT TO LIVE AND LET DIE. Honor, dignity, reciprocation is all we need. Please, please.. (do not keep repeating we are all Indians...it is passe)
-saaka innoo bekaa?
Vasanthkumar Mysoremath
Knowledge is power
To acquire knowledge language is the vehicle. You learn a foreign languages with this in mind. Learning English by default may be a blessing in disguise to all us Indians especially in the context of heigher education. I consider myself lucky to have learnt my mother tongue too. I can access the wealth of literature in that language. Now a day’s one has to be multilingual by force. Arguments for state language are of a very narrow base with this perspective. If some body is not respecting our language it is their ignorance (and misfortune) in this age of globalization and it should not affect us in an unduly bad manner. It highlights the ignorance of the other party involved.
This thread has been beaten to death already, except for the last gasps of the survivors.
PSA