In continuation with some threads on transportation, highways, and the unjust treatment Karnataka (including Bengaluru) has been facing from the Center, here're some fresh wounds the Railway ministry has made on Karnataka.
The 2009-10 interim Railway budget is out, and as expected, has been a disaster for us (Karnataka).
There hve always been huge piles of requests sent to Railway ministers in the past, like this time too, but the outcome of every budget has been a pittance in front of them. Why, look at this time's budget:
1. There were demands for 10 new inter-city rails in Karnataka.
2. What have we got - Zilch!
3. There were 5 tracks within Karnataka that were demanded to be made non-stop for special convenience of long distance traverlers..
4. What we got - Zilch!
5. And so on..
This has been the trend of unequal treatment Karnataka has been facing at the Center. All the plans we might have for Bengaluru, its industrial growth, its governance, its security, its economy, its satellite-town-plan, and all that will spontaneously plummet to earth if we have such an un-federal system in place, where all that we get from the center is a new, and longer inter-state train to Bengaluru, only to help more people come into the state, but nothing to strengthen the industrial corridor we dream to build between Bengaluru and the many other potentially industrial towns across the state. Come to think of it, is a Bengaluru-Mangalore high-speed rail link more useful to BLR/KAR, or a BLR-Chennai rail link? Besides, 3 or 4 intra-state trains have been allocated to TN in this budget, but none to Karnataka!
And guess what: with all this noise happening out there, excepting the Kannada media doing voluntary investigations and telling people about this matter, no damn soul on the English media quarters (the ones that go full volume when it comes to talking about pubs, parties, valentines and etc. stuff) seems to be even bothered about this to more than publishing a couple of lines in a corner. Are we not unduly relying on some media that actually doesnt care, at heart, for what's good for this city? For what's needed to make a better Bengaluru, a better Karnataka? Its time we as Praje work towards influencing the English media to stop imagining themselves as representatives of a different planet, and come back to earth and stand for the cause of Karnataka.
As responsible Praje, we need to exibhit more sensibility than getting influenced by media that care the least for real development of our land. We urgently need to keep our eyes wide open to things around us. Even while not ignoring the rotten present that we're standing amidst, we MUST realise ways to create a glorious future..
-Nijavaada
Forward this Forum topic
How is the budget prepared?
Instead of going into the grouse for the moment (which will be a tactical thing to do, and we will get lost in arguments), how about we analyze the budget preparation process:
I am sure there is some process for planning - and it may very well be market driven (more people, more expected traffic demand, moe trains). But we should ask for and understand how democratic or participative is the planning and budgeting processrailways? Who will have the answers?
It could be that fixing this will take care of things for once and for all.
I would suspect that our state's MPs have the responsibility to canvass for our states (I am told thats how Indian Railways work), and they may be failing us on this count.
[Please refrain from unnecessary name calling and attacks, no wars and foul language etc, please]
IR bias
How do MPs and MLAs collaborate?
Is there a formal way for moving up proposals from Local levels -> MLA -> MP ? Forget the local level thing for now (big topic in itself), does our state have a way for transparent collaboration process between MLAs or state government and the MPs? If the job of canvassing at central level is left only to the chief minister, he is not going to have enough time. CM/govt or the MLAs have to collaborate with MPs, and in transparent fashion, so that we know what they are up to, and prevent them from politicizing every issue.
about activity
as an interim response, let me direct your attention to the Stop-Rail andolana that the KRV staged last evening at Bengluru Central Rly Stn - soon after the budget results fell out. We only need to hear the stories in this regard..
Railways is indeed on their list, but they're certainly aware of the organized way in which this needs to be addressed.
-Nijavaada
We need a Karnataka Railway Corporation similar to Konkan Rail
Alternate options
So let us aim to create a Karnataka Railway Corporation
I have proposed something similar in this thread
There are 2 lines of thought. One is what you and I think. The other is to work to get the bias lifted so we benefit equally. It need not be one or the other it could be both. Intracity keep it a state subject and intercity and interstate get IR to put int he investment.
It is all political
I guess the best thing would be to have a railway agency for each state, and all these agencies should be permitted to compete with each other to run interstate trains. The best man wins. This monolithic "Indian Railways" needs to be broken down.
answers, anyone?
Do we have someone ready with answers to those? Do we as Praja have clarity on the system that we seem to be ignorant about until now? Is there someone who can talk about the fundamentals of a country's railway budget building process?
If we want to talk about a good, urban (e-) governance model, are we equipped with such methodologies to lead a society?
-Nijavaada
I think this can only be done 'top-down'
This is the way forward, but a major top-down push is needed, way beyond our scope, I think. If anyone has other suggestions, please put them forward. In my opinion, with a centralized monolithic giant like this, all our efforts are going to be a waste.
getting hold now..
It is only through some such strong indicators of social wellness that one starts to feel the pinch - like in the repetitive ignorance of Karnataka's interests in either the Railway, or even the Finance budgets. In fact, even in financial terms, GoK has been getting back not even 10% of the monetary contribution it makes to the center in many many ways. The actual (but full of fallacies) condition that the Finance Planning Commission puts forth is that a 30.5% of its receipts from states be paid back to the states. Wisely enough, this, unfortunately for us, doesnt say each contributing state gets back 30.5% of its contribution. Owing to such a stupid setup, some states like us get 10%, while others (like Bihar and UP) get close to 400% back!!!
The decentralized picture that the Indian polity exibhits is indeed highly centralized at its core, even today. This is clearly explained by the reason-less existence of a huge number of items of governance under the concurrent list - which is but another name for the Union list, in essence. Owing to many such fallacies in our polity, we had Education, a very crucial item indeed, under the union list to begin with.. Upon being repeatedly opposition from some states in the past, Education now falls under the concurrent list. Thats not enough. Education among all the most fundamental rights and requirements of a people must be decided by the state whose governance they actually solely elect to rule, and not instead by the Central govt. The govt. sitting in Delhi is not better than the govt. in Bengaluru to decide what and how the people of Karnataka must be educated. Education must fall under state list. Education must be decentralized.
Similarly, there are national highways - give states enough money they need & deserve, and then let them make the national highways within their states. Every democracy has a rightful watchdog to watch for inefficiencies of a system. So is the case with Railways, Shipping, Mines etc. The center must just play the role of facilitating a healthy environment among states, even while making sure that each state maintains its own welfare at its best, and thereby has a good control over the virtual "need" for uncontrolled migration across the country. In fact, even after 60 yrs of independence, we've still retained a couple of UTs in our country - which is laughable! Such short-cuts wont help good governance. In fact any short-cut wont help us at all. Going the decentralized route is impending upon us..
-Nijavaada
Where is the consultation process?
Nijavaada and others,
Getting step motherly treatment in central budgets is nothing new, except during the Jaffar Sharief's tenure as Union Railway Minister. What is needed is delinking of railway deprtment from the political clutches. As long as the powers rests with ministers/politicians the regional injustices would continue unabeted. Even if the decentralization happens and state decides the routes and new trains, there is no gaurantee that needed regions in state get looked into? Why do the Hyderbad-Karnataka regions still remain undeveloped, even though we had all the time since 1956? isn't this a injustice? Unless only Bangalore, Hassan, Mysore and shimoga defines the state of Karnataka
Coming back to our state politics, we just hear the news about wish list from Karnataka law makers. Where is the citizen's say in the list? Don't citizens have any right to be part of the consultation?
Syed
wrong analysis
Please justify your rather optimistic sounding stance w.r.t CKJS's tenure as railway minister at the center. There are hardly any substantiating successes for the cause of karnataka that we've seen during his tenure either. Of what avail are any of the projects he granted in his entire tenure but only seen on budget papers?! What essentially makes you quote his contribution so exceptionally?
BTW, if your comments are leading to a privatisation of the indian railways, that is going to be an utterly useless suggestion to make to the system. Of course a PPP is something that one can suggest, but from first principles of good governance, there are certain aspects of a good society that need to be under an elected govt's control.
Talking about certain regions of Karnataka not getting enough attention, and sticking to a very very common man's approach of blaming a particular government for that is not warranted here. We must realise that this is another manifestation of the illogical & pseudo-decentralised system of governance in India.
It is easy to get blown by a common-man kind of blame-game on Karnataka's rather disturbing history, and its impact on most parts of the state. But the point here is, as its responsible citizens, are we really taking the pains to understand the real cause behind such grave injustices?
- Coorg, even after 60 yrs of independence, is yet to get a single railway line going through it - while being an amazing tourist attraction in Karnataka - who's to blame - the stupid centralized railways only!
- Water sharing on Krishna river - quite an anomoly when compared to the Center's stand w.r.t Kaveri. While the downstream TN gets lion share of Kaveri water every year, the upstream of Krishna - Maharashtra, gets to store most of the water in that river every year. Of course when they release waters from these rivers, again, the centralized flood-management ministry doesnt care if Karnataka gets flooded. Because Water sharing and Flood(distress) management all come under the union list.
(Please note, I am by no means denying the negligence, and incapability on the part of several elected representatives from these areas, but that doesnt give us reason to say we've been limiting KAR's definitions to a few places only)The last portion of your comment comes back on track to say that there is such a strong need for decentralisation. If our voices have to be heard indeed, it is that much more important for a governance much closer to the citizens' voices be responsible and answerable for all programs undertaken towards this cause. Which means, railways (among many such items) need to be under the state's purview/control.
-Nijavaada
Right, but 'injustice' seems a wrong word...
exactly the point
You're but leading exactly to the point here..
The point I am trying to make here is there needs to be no particular state coming and sitting on the union state.
In this perfectly decentralized system of governance, the presence of regional parties (of various states) gets more and more emphasized, and the union's role thereby reduces, and more responsibility comes into the hands of each state. Which is exactly what is required for our progress.
So while it is certainly injustice as we stand today, nullifying this injustice tomorrow doesnt mean we want a state party ruling at the union. We only want it to be an equitable share of parties from all states - working together for uniform development of their respective states. Remember, it is not bad to pull the center towards your betterment, so long as everyone is pulling it with an equal force, and thereby everyone gets an equal share. Come on, we're talking about a TRULY federal union of states here. And like said earlier here, whatever we do in our current direction will surely not bear any useful fruit, as long as this decentralization thing doesnt set in properly into our minds and into our system.
-Nijavaada
Cross subsidisation of BIMARU state's inefficiencies
Just sample a few more things-Karnataka has a measly 3% of its 3090 kms of railway lines electrified. This 3090 kms itself compares very poorly with smaller states(sizewise) like TN/Bihar. Also this 3% within KA is also is for the stretch that connects BengaLuru to Hyderabad ( a small stretch of 60+ kms to the AP border) and for the stretch that connects BengaLuru to Chennai( a small stretch of 40+ kms to teh TN border). So guys any intra city connectivity within KA is non electrified.
Doubling of the line between 2 of its biggest cities BengaLuru and Mysuru is taking ages due to paltry sums of money released in each years budget towards this.The list is endless.We have districts like Madikeri with absolutely no rail connectivity at all.
As Nijavaada has earlier pointed out the reverse flow of funds/projects back to the state from the centre is determined by mobocracy....more numbers of representatives from your state in the corridors of power and you obviously have the loudest voice to get your way through.A few of the smaller states have realised the benefits of having regional parties to represent their interests as in a skewed federal set up like ours, that is the only way to get back what is really our due ( leave alone getting what we actually require).KA is in neither of the 2 tracks and hence we have to celebrate initiatives like the states own Highway development project while TN under the able guidance of TR Baalu garners more than its share of funds ( which includes contributions from various states to the centre) for 4 laning and 6 laning of its highways
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/baalu-in-drivers-seat-home-state-far-ahead-in-highway-revamp/229284/
Accepted that Praja cannot directly fight against such gross injustice meted out to States like KA...but we need to be atleast aware of the context of development of cities of KA being tightly woven to shady politics which is not scalable. Obviously the solution is not for each state to have their own regional parties to do the arm twisting or wait for the ideal" muhurta " when the same party is in power at the centre and at the state.What is required is an objective and transparent framework which minimises cross subsidisation and rewards efficiently performaing states instead.
While every citizen of BengaLuru cribs about problems in infrastructure and rightly so when they are contributing by way of taxes....but the question is if this money directly goes to KA?? Sadly it does not it goes to the centre and then based on political equations, smaller than its due share comes back to states like KA and MAH. Little wonder you have the largest migration to cities like Mumbai and BengaLuru where the tax payers money that fills the central coffers is amng the highest but what comes back in return is not in the same ratio.........This information is only to put into context how development of our cities is so tightly linked to the federal set up of our country where there is such degree of cross subsidiation that states are virtually left at the mercy of the whims and fancies of Ministers holding key portfolios.
Obviously the MP's from KA are also to blame for not making enough noise but as Vinay mentions, if the parties at centre and state are different and especially for a numerically smaller state like with 28 MP's only, the voice only gets lost in the melee.
We are happy when KA pursues a project akin to the NHAI for improving highways with KA or requests the centre to take up Railway projects with KA on a 50:50 basis...but the sad aspect is that the Government is so frustrated that it can't get back its share from the centre that it has decided to take up some of the real key projects with its own money....( Also look at the recent power agreements with BHEL, NTPC etc).In an ideal federal set up each state should have control to atleast 70-80% of its earnings for chalking its growth and not be left to go with a begging bowl to the centre ( dominated by the lesser efficient BIMARU states)and the balance 20-30% should be used for common areas like DEFENSE etc.P_Hebburugood example
An interesting example most people on Praja Bengaluru will find it easier to relate to:
Is the perfect case of dodgery, and thereby immense delay caused on the Marathahalli bridge widening project.
Originally owned by the Indian Railways, widening of this bridge could be done ONLY by IR, and GoK - in whose state this bridge sat, had no right or "jurisdiction" to alter this bridge! Why!?
And what was the outcome - poor Bengalurigas (Bangaloreans) had to suffer the daily bottlenecks to/from whitefield for hours, thru' months, and years. Do we want such an inept system at all?!
-Nijavaada
State level divisions!
NV,
I could read your line of thinking in your post and question about CKJS.
First and foremost he is a politician like others and all the decisions, I am sure is made to see that their political compulsions are taken care of first and public interests comes last. So CKJS is no angel in the field of politician. But one must give credit wherever it is required. He did brought few long distance trains to Blore like Udayan, Karnataka Express (Earlier KK), Kaveri and Tippu Express on mysore-B'lore lines, BG line from Guntakal to B'lore etc. I am sure he did reaped his share of benefits from these goodies. Lets not give any other spin to these facts. We can disagree on the quantum of these benefits, but not on the spirit of it.
Coming back to your recipe of decentralization of Railways as part of doing justice to Karnataka, I think your trying to find solutions for the symptom rather than cure to the root of the cause. Lets not see everything from regional chauvinism.
Injustice to Karnataka and many other states needs to be addressed from a different perspective than just going for decentralization of railways. Instead should look at the overall strategy of providing railway network in each and every states. I don't think it is happening even on a paper. Every railway budget introduces tons of new rails, but I doubt any one of them is borne out of people's need and a professional evaluation from experts. I see similarities in our local BMTC operations. Every few months we see new services being introduced and recently the case of KS.
Privatization of railways is not my suggestion.
Given this scenario what would be prudent is to come up with a overall railway plan to add/expand the railway network in each and every state/district/taluq that meets the people and economic needs. Then from that plan, start building the network where it doesn't exists and I am sure route rationalization would be a priority necessity. In that plan even I would also advocate for railway divisions in each and every state, instead of few exclusive ones. That way the responsibility for adding/expanding the rail services falls on them. Similar to Postal and Telecom circles.
Let me know if this suggestion is worth looking at further.
Syed
njvda- not the best example
njvda, I am afraid that's not the best example. Not sure if you know the history behind delay in construction of the bridge. And working with Railway's assets or resources has the same issues of dealing with their internal bureaucracy no matter what state you are in. That bridge as such is not the best example of their focused and perceived indifference towards Karnataka. BTW, another railway overbridge in Whitefield area is running super late, and reasons I hear are not specific to railways alone.
Mangalore train connection is probably a fit example, but perhaps of the other kind. For the time it took (why so slow), and for the fact that representatives from our state didn't help speed things up (there were rumors that some of them may instead have been happy with the delays there).
In fact, Commuter Railway System too would fall in the same category - I am told the initiative rested more with the state, and when the government did get serious about it, they are making progress (refer recent attempts to kickstart CRS starting with train to BIAL).
I think we should make a big issue of placing better central-lobbying expectations on our state's MPs in the upcoming elections.
When IR works with others
TM
TM
How is a plan prepared?
In secret? Down in the deep deep gallows?
I'd like to think there is a method to this madness. If our MPs were relly interested, they should have been able to find out. And lobby real hard. But did they do any such thing?
I understand & appreciate the fact that current set-up is far from ideal. But that is what we inherited, for whatever reason. I'll put the blame squarely on our elected representatives - and ourselves for not tightening the screws on them - for not sufficiently working the system, and for the current and past preceived differential treatment. IR is not the only example where KA seems to lag behind.
Lobby for a better system. But in the mean time, let us really press hard to get the current system working as efffectively and efficiently as possible.
Ravi
indifferent by design
Please note that my points are not targeted at indifference exibhited by the central railways towards KAR alone.. but towards any particular state in this matter. In fact wherever people of a state have received good deliverables from the center (in whatever dept.) it has been because of the way that state's party/ies had to lobby at the center with the govt. they participated in.
But the "way out" of this, that we're trying to arrive at on this thread, is firstly the need to realise the utter stupidity of a system that expects a ministry sitting in Delhi (thru its SW or Southern or whatever division) to exercise a vote or a veto for/against a bridge in Bengaluru over a couple of tracks that happen to run in that state. Now if the particular state govt. (GoK in this case) has failed to lobby well with the central govt. for this one bridge and hence become cause for the immense delay in its execution, it becomes evident as to where the problem is. Right? If the railways operation were decentralized, this bridge and its entire jaatka would have been in GoK's control and definitely taken far lesser time to execute.
But you're absolutely right in saying that we, as good Praje, must lay heavy emphasis on pressing our next set of MPs to take active part in lobbying for the cause of this state. While we know things have to cease to be that way, ignoring the trick in the game we're currently playing will only be stupidity. Relentless lobbying for pro-Karnataka/pro-Kannada activities must be high priority of our next gen rep's - MPs/MLAs and the entire set..
-Nijavaada
What can be done in the present set up?
You are right about CKJS.He atleast had the interests of KAR in mind.Though we didn't get in much of a rail line expansion, KA atleast got a few long distance trains runing inside KA. The only other Railway Minister under whom KA did benefit was I believe George Fernandes, who atleast initiated the Konkan Railway line (360 kms of the total 780 kms of which runs inside KA)when he was in charge.
But the fact of the matter is-Injustice to states like KA is a given in the present set up. Your ideas of having objective demand based planning at a state level for Railway lines from professionals is a Utopian scenario that may never materialise in the curent set up.
So what can be done?? Imagine a signature campaign from 50,000 professionals from KA seeking justice for KA which is finally submitted to the Prime Minister by the likes of NRN / Nandan Nilekani or say Rajeev Chandrashekhar.This could atleast make the Centre wake up to the fact that there are educated citizens who are also equally aware and socially responsible who represent the state besides the 28 MP's who lack the guts to voice the interests of 6 crore people of Karnataka.
Sadly the English media especially papers like TOI are least bothered in even mentioning that KA has got a raw deal...as they have more market driven "critical" issues like Valentine day celebrations across BengaLuru to cover on the front page. Little wonder KRV's protests against any injustice finds mention only in local papers and not the English media.
P_hebburu
p_hebburu, lets take this as a Praja Project!
A campaign would serve well
I think an online petition might help garner votes from people online in favour of Karnataka's demands, and against the partial stance portrayed by the recent budgets - both railways, and the finance budget.
Filing RTIs is not always a useful route - might be meaningful in a PPP case, but not exactly in a complete govt. undertaking - that too a central govt. undertaking. I am not contesting the quality of data we'll get, but its a big waste of time to ask them how they decide upon a new railway line - when what we eventually want is a revamp of the way railways are handled in our country, and especially when we know that the bases for all the decisions they make are flawed.
If all a union railways minister has been able to do (predominantly until date) is sign new rail projects of connecting the states, that is exactly what we need to limit him to, and recommend that the railways inside a state be totally under the respective State Railway ministry's control - something like what we have for highways right.. This way states get the money they deserve (for railways) and the center's burden on railways is reduced. Lesser imbalance. Again here, the center must just say (after hearing state requests), for instance, Jammu and Bengaluru need to be connected, and annouce the budget allocated. It must then pass the ball to all the states that need to participate in this cross-country connection and advise each such state to join in. There is no need for a central rail-laying, or a central engine installation force. The central railways just needs to envision, lay guidelines to (like electric or diesel tracks; which guage to use etc..), and monitor projects. All rest businesses of railways like coach manufacturing et. al., can be just that - businesses that each State Railways ministry runs - thereby improving employment opportunities for its people. Let the states take the implementation responsibilities, and find their respective ways to prosper. This is exactly a federal union of states, where each state has a deserving position to make its own place in the country.
What system we have today and how it is built is far from our concern right? We know that it will not help, no matter what twisted-arm politics we continue to play. But any info someone here can put forth is whole-heartedly welcome.
-Nijavaada
Jumping the gun?
~~~~
Manish.
whose hands are full?
It can only be a gross mis-judgement of the situation in Karnataka if something makes you feel SWR has its hands full.
While I am totally aware of the vote-on-account limitations as against a mainstream budget, you must realise that we're talking about a trend - something that has been observed by the state through all these years of independence. With those examples in perspective you're but talking about projeconly yesterday and the day before (ninne monne)!! For instance do you think Bellary's ores needed rails only now, and not in all these years when Karnataka has been the 3rd highest producer of Iron Ore? Hasn't Kodagu been disconnected from the rest of the world (thru rail) all these years, and still remains so? When Kashmir can be connected by rail already, why not Kodagu?!
Besides your expectations from the railway dept. seem very very minimalistic, and falls seriously short of what it takes to be a shining state. What you think is filling the hands of SWR had been the dreams of everyone living in Karnataka decades ago, and all the recent dreams seem far from being realised still.. for examples - do read several other comments posted on this thread.. and also follow these links:
http://www.kannadaprabha.com/pdf/922009/1.pdf
http://www.kannadaprabha.com/pdf/1122009/14.pdf
http://www.kannadaprabha.com/pdf/1122009/15.pdf
http://www.kannadaprabha.com/pdf/1422009/1.pdf
-Nijavaada
Thanks Manish
That was a nice factual reminder about what they actually have for Karnataka in there. And yes, its an interim budget.
Praja Project? Counting our blessings
~~~~
Manish.
with the right perspective
Frankly, although this could be a decent compilation of data, this is just that - data. Because data needs an interpretation to actually draw inferences.
So firstly, let us attach the installation dates of each such rly line. This will help us understand at what pace has Karnataka really been experiencing development w.r.t Rlys.
Second, the more easily apparent analysis is the percentage of electrified rly lines within Karnataka, and the percentage of electrification of lines that connect towns of KAR with other states. Explains how under-developed the lines inside KAR are w.r.t most of rest of India. It is undisputable that electrification is the way to go before being a good railway connected state. Otherwise why did we even want any broad guage railways in our state at all. With those minimalistic expectations arent narrow guages also enough? Of course not.
Third, let us first ask ourselves - are with okay with that much ONLY?! I dont think we can be okay with that! If Praje are okay, then there's something that we must be seriously cheating ourselves in thinking so.
The ideal network we want inside KAR is a combination of all possible routes between any two towns in KAR. This way, if someone says all that KAR needs to have rail network to Kodagu is a MYS-KOD line, that is probably 1% of the actual requirement. Dont we need lines from say, Mangalore to Kodagu, likewise to Kodagu from Hubli, Gulbarga, Belgaavi, Bidar, Raichur and so on... Of course we do. Because thats exactly what is the need. And also because thats how it is many states in India.
Fourth, we cannot afford to convince ourselves to be okay with rly lines that only connect other states to border towns of Karnataka claiming as a major gain to Karnataka. A good example is indeed the recently debated Chennai-Bangalore bullet train. If Karnataka's (or even Bengaluru's) welfare is what we need, we need things that can help us in this regard. We need rail lines that link our industrial towns to ports, our people-dense towns to tourist towns, and so on. We dont need daisy-chain railway lines to statistically "satisfy" the apparently suppressed expectations of people from railways.
-Nijavaada
Proposals Please!
Nijavaada,
I really appreciate your efforts for writing such narrative comments. I really like your writing skills and hope to make use this for some helpful initiatives.
We all can start beating chests with cries of injustice and what not. But that doesn't help much. We need a different kind of chest beating. We could be trend setters for a revolution in Railways in India. For that we need to put in real efforts to consolidate the facts on ground and needs based on requirements, not just matching nos with other states. What I care is, what is needed for Karnataka and its economic development.
You have proposed decentralizing the Railways and making Sate take control of it. Could you pls put this proposal in some formal presentation and share it Praja also listing its need, what to do it and how to do it? May be many would find attractive and more support.
Even if decentralization plan succeeds, we still need a Vision Plan for railways in Karnataka. In the light of this, you should enlighten Praja with some hard facts that tells the sorry state of railway infrastructure in Karnataka. Let the data points to what is the dire needs of Karnataka in terms of BG lines needed, lines that needs electrification, Towns/cities needing connectivity to B'lore and other major cities in and out state, Stations that needs to be expanded and spruced up, goods trains on important commercial town and all other supporting infrastructure.
Can Praja count on you to prepare some proposals/presentations with supporting data?
Syed
Some data on Railway lengths and electrification
@Manish, @SilkBoard,
People from Karnataka are known to be pretty complacent, but we seem to have gone a step ahead. We want to forcefully convince ourselves against all odds that all is fine. Let me present a snap shot of Railway networks across states as of 2002 and then separately we will see what has happened against the demands of the last few years separately. This will give a holistic picture of the accumulated injustice (perceived for some and factual for others).
S.N.
State
Total Route
Route kilometres
Percentage
State Area in sq km
Track length/sq km
Kilometres
electrified
1
Jharkhand
1797
1562
86.92
2
Chhattisgarh
1180
861
72.97
3
Delhi
200
129
64.5
4
West Bengal
3661
1692
46.21
5
Madhya Pradesh
4785
1,880.00
39.29
6
Andhra Pradesh
5135
2012
39.18
275068
0.019
7
Maharashtra
5459
1942
35.57
307713
0.018
8
Orissa
2310
800
34.63
9
Haryana
1547
366
23.65
10
Tamil Nadu
4188
967
23.08
130058
0.032
11
Kerala
1050
199
18.95
12
Bihar
3441
631
18.34
94164
0.037
13
Uttar Pradesh
8571
1394
16.26
238566
0.036
14
Gujarat
5312
706
13.29
15
Punjab
2102
242
11.51
16
Himachal Pradesh
269
23
8.55
17
Rajasthan
5925
491
8.29
18
Karnataka
2974
104
3.5
191791
0.016
19
Other States
3122
-
-
Total
63028
16001
25.39
So on both counts of RAilway length density and also electrification KA is pathetically behind.We may argue that this information is of 2002 and subsequently KA may have gained dramatically. As of 2008, the net addition to the Railway length was a paltry 105 kms and an additional electrification of 51 kms.This puts the % of electrification within Karnataka at 5% as against the all India average of 31% as of 2008.
When this information is further seen in combination with the National highways density across states, it is evident that states like Bihar/UP/TN have benefits of a cost effective mass transport system in both forms when compared to Karnataka.
Is that the only issue-No…The state Government has to hence spend more from its State budget for providing connectivity through state highways to the guys who actually elect them to power, which could have been put to improve other social indicators like education/health etc instead of making up for the injustice from the centre. So Karnataka or for that matter any such state in a similar predicament suffers on multiple counts. The above data is only for railways to keep the discussion in context of the thread.
If you look into data on National highways within Karnataka, Central contribution to Power generation within KA,Power sharing agreements, distress relief distribution to KA vis a vis other states, one will only realize that things are even worse off and how states that contribute a smaller share to the exchequer are enjoying at the benefit of states like Karnataka. On top of this all such facilities provided to states like Bihar is not helping anyone…..the social set up there ensures that guys hardly pay for their tickets but of course they make best use of the Railways to be omnipresent at all Railway examination centers and also migrate in hordes to greener pastures along the railway routes provided by Ministers from their state.
Qualitative stuff of how the various lines to BengaLuru only benefits the other states in terms of migrating to BengaLuru because of a miniscule length of the route passing through Karnataka have been put forth by various folks earlier.
@Syed,
I fully agree that a chest thumping approach will take us nowhere but we need to atleast start with an understanding that there atleast exists a problem that needs to be corrected instead of trying to mask it and then patting oursleves on the back that all if fine and there is no cause for a debate.
I'm all for collecting data and putting it to the right guys and may be through the right folks.Will get back once we have the information at a district level.
Now info of recent times-What we got against what was asked
In the earlier post.we could see a snap shot of the Railways network till 2002.Now getting back to the present-What have we got against what was demanded :
None of the demands with 50% partnership between Centre and State (which never happens with any other state) like
1. Intercity express (Shivamogga - Bengaluru, Shivamogga - Maisuru)
2. Sollapura - Bengaluru
3. Hubballi - Sollapura
4. Bijapura - Mangaluru (Through Gadag, Hubballi, Arasikere)
5. Bijapur - Maisuru
6. Gadaga - Hubballi - Hassana
7. Bengaluru - Bijapura (Through Hubballi)
8. Starting of trains that were stopped due to Grade upgradation between Bengaluru - Arasikere
were even taken note of.
While, grants in the railway budget 2009 to Karnataka were 3 new trains
1. Maisuru - Yeshawantapura daily (this has been running as special train since 3 years and cannot be considered as new)
2. Mumbai - Karawara super fast, 3 times a week (It runs more in Maharashtra than in Karnataka).It does benefit people of Karwar no doubt but it runs for a paltry 20 odd kms in Karnataka.
3. Nizamuddin - Bengaluru via Kachiguda: Rajadhani Express (It runs more in other states than in Karnataka)...Obviously will not help people from KArnataka wanting to migrate to either BengaLuru, Hyderabad or Delhi as much as it benefits people from AP.
2 new Dual lines
1. Hosapete - Swamihalli
2. Toranagallu - Ranajitpura
Both of them are used to transfer goods which is again a "zero use" for passengers.
Extension of line
1. Jodhpura - Bengaluru express was extended upto Coimbatore (which is again useful for Tamilnadu rather than to Karnataka)@Manish,
Post all Railway data on this thread,
p_hebburu avare,
Please post all the data/statistics on Railways at this discussion thread"http://praja.in/blog/kbsyed61/2009/02/17/scaling-railway-infrastructure-karnataka-praja-initiative".
Syed
It doesn't benefit Karnataka?
p_hebburu avare,
First of all, let me make clear by saying that Karnataka doesn't have a good railway network foot print and even what exists now doesn't offer any scientific explanation. There is an urgent need to fix these big anomalies/injustices anything we want to call.
I want to draw your attention to something you wrote in your comment. You made a point that many of the trains, railway lines originating from Karnataka are helping other states more than itself.
3. Nizamuddin - Bengaluru via Kachiguda: Rajadhani Express (It runs more in other states than in Karnataka)...Obviously will not help people from KArnataka wanting to migrate to either BengaLuru, Hyderabad or Delhi as much as it benefits people from AP.
Extension of line
1. Jodhpura - Bengaluru express was extended upto Coimbatore (which is again useful for Tamilnadu rather than to Karnataka)@Manish,
On face of it I also agree with your assertions. But how do you ensure that it can benefits Karnataka only? If B'loreans need train to H'bad or Delhi, it will have to travel in terrain that necessarily do not happen to be Karnataka state. Train to Delhi has to travel other places also. I am sure people from other cities which happens to on route would definitely make use of it. Unless there is bar for other people to ride it or unless make it to be a NON-STOP. Even then I am not sure all passengers to Delhi are from Karnataka. The way I could visualize your suggestion is by making trains running exclusively in the state. I am sure we are not making a case for separate country? Should we?
2 new Dual lines
1. Hosapete - Swamihalli
2. Toranagallu - Ranajitpura
Both of them are used to transfer goods which is again a "zero use" for passengers.
Are we saying that goods trains are not beneficial to Karnataka? I am little surprise with that assertion.
We should be fighting for good train network and facilities for both passengers as well as for goods.
practically..
With respect to long distance trains, and intra-state trains connecting all major towns/villages in the state in a reasonably usable fashion, here we are, talking about the priority of having long distance trains as opposed to local, intra-state ones.
Please note, here we're talking abour priorities given to inter-state trains that can carry people into Karnataka more often than out of KAR from here. In the case of the proposed Ernakulam-BLR bullet train itself, a very meagre percentage of the track runs inside KAR, while a big deal is within KER, and perhaps even in TN. But when we get trains that run right from Bidar, or Hubli or Raichur until BLR will these needs (as you say) of KAR people wanting to go to other states be satisfied. To that effect these inter-state trains are not truly effective to the welfare of our state.
What we need to understand (instead of those separative imaginations) here is that we need a wise mixture in the train network in our state. We need to have 100% compeleteness in intra-state rail network first. Only then should we be thinking of strengthening the network of the inter-state kind. There are subtle but very important things to understand when it comes to the difference between long inter-state trains, and local intra-state trains. People should not be forced to use an inter-state train to travel within a state - which is actually the case today in Karnataka; but unlike in other states like TN and AP. A guy in KAR wishing to travel to Gulbarga, lets say from BLR, must not have to go through the menace of finding a seat in a long distance train like BLR-DEL. He needs a BLR-GUL train.. and believe me, when we lay such trains, we'll realise how may people actually needed that train!!
-Nijavaada
Terrain Challenges and load factor
Second, there is a lot of traffic between Ernakulam (Kochi) - Coimbatore - Mysore - Bangalore - Vellore - Chennai and this corridor could easily be converted into a bullet train corridor or even a High Speed Rail - which ever is most feasible.
Instead of a bullet train between Hubli and Bangalore, a dedicated rail corridor could be more economically feasible.
The GoK has not been able to even keep up the road on Shiradi Ghat. I only wonder where on earth it will muster the courage to introduce more trains to Mangalore without ticking off the Bus Lobby! Thankfully GoTN does not pander to their transport / bus lobby.
Inasmuch as I bat for Karnataka and kannadigas, lets not be immune from obvious facts. The strech from Ernakulam to Chennai is perhaps the most urbanised and economically a more dynamic part of South India. A bullet train in this strech would be most appropriate.
Two years back, the then manager of Southern Railways, Mr Thomas Varghese had made this suggestion:
http://www.hindu.com/2007/07/17/stories/2007071750600100.htm
Regarding Bullet Trains
Bullet trains, by definition cannot stop at too many places. They are essentially for non-stop super-fast travel between two large urban centers with huge people movement between them. They are serious competition for the airline industry, and they will not really be competing with the Indian Railways trains. Bangaloreans travelling to Chennai will reap the benefits as much as Chennai-ites coming here.
So, let's not talk too much about bullet trains having tracks within or outside Karnataka. Another good reason for NOT discussing this bullet train stuff too much would be that we are extremely unlikely to see this materialize in our lifetime! :-)
Railways failure in KA
In TN no such lobby exists. This is why Railways is more successfull in TN.
Therefore if the people of Karnataka do not act against the bus lobby, the state will not succeed.
Let's be pragmatic
Now are we hearing voices that seem to suggest we're a people that is okay with what it has got, and in fact likes it this way!?
The suggestion was that we had got something significant, as opposed to the initial suggestion of 'neglect' that appeared to be mere posturing and chest-beating that will achieve nothing. Instead of bemoaning what we have not been given, let us analyse what we have got, whether it is satisfactory or not, and then decide what is of highest priority for us. Let's face reality - simply going to the railway ministry with a dozen random demands will not fetch us anything. Let us be structured and realistic in our approach, so that we stand a better chance of getting what we need.
So firstly, let us attach the installation dates of each such rly line. This will help us understand at what pace has Karnataka really been experiencing development w.r.t Rlys.
I could cull out this data as well, but of what use would it be? There's no use crying over spilt milk. The important thing is not when these lines were built, but the fact that they are here now.
Second, the more easily apparent analysis is the percentage of electrified rly lines within Karnataka, and the percentage of electrification of lines that connect towns of KAR with other states. Explains how under-developed the lines inside KAR are w.r.t most of rest of India. It is undisputable that electrification is the way to go before being a good railway connected state. Otherwise why did we even want any broad guage railways in our state at all.
While the first part of your analysis is correct, the second part is fundamentally flawed. Electrification by itself brings no added benefits in terms of enhancing capacity - the lines need to be doubled first. Broad gauge has a number of benefits like increased capacity and higher speeds, and these are irrespective of the power (electric or diesel). Electrification should only be done on double lines with high traffic.
Third, let us first ask ourselves - are with okay with that much ONLY?! I dont think we can be okay with that! If Praje are okay, then there's something that we must be seriously cheating ourselves in thinking so.
Perspective again...try looking at it in a slightly more optimistic manner.The ideal network we want inside KAR is a combination of all possible routes between any two towns in KAR. This way, if someone says all that KAR needs to have rail network to Kodagu is a MYS-KOD line, that is probably 1% of the actual requirement. Dont we need lines from say, Mangalore to Kodagu, likewise to Kodagu from Hubli, Gulbarga, Belgaavi, Bidar, Raichur and so on... Of course we do.
Mangalore to Kodagu is possible but difficult due to ghats etc. And once it is connected to Mysore, connection with Bangalore, Hubli, Gulbarga, Belgaum etc. is automatically established.
Because thats exactly what is the need. And also because thats how it is many states in India.
There is a contradiction here. This is what needs to change - our attitude. Rather than acting juvenile and harping like jealous kids about what 'other states' have got, let us analyse what 'we need'. Instead of blindly following other states, it would be more beneficial if we looked at our needs...instead of clamouring for something just because 'some other state has it', let us change our approach to demanding something because 'we need it'.
If Karnataka's (or even Bengaluru's) welfare is what we need, we need things that can help us in this regard. We need rail lines that link our industrial towns to ports, our people-dense towns to tourist towns, and so on. We dont need daisy-chain railway lines to statistically "satisfy" the apparently suppressed expectations of people from railways.
Agreed. But could you please clarify what you mean by 'daisy-chain lines'. Also, just because we don't demand the moon, it does not mean our expectations are 'suppressed'.
Regards,
~~~~
Manish, Nagarbhavi.
~~~~
Manish.
Railmap of Karnataka
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
More capacity needed
Besides, flights carry only a small percentage of the traffice between the cities. Therefore a high speed rail (if not a Bullet train) is essential between Ernakulam - Coimbatore - Mysore - Bangalore - Chennai.
SB_YPR,Let us be structured
Let us be structured and realistic in our approach, so that we stand a better chance of getting what we need
But actually your words dont seem to be indicative of any such stand. Your stats only seem to paint of a rosy picture of Rlys in KAR - which is utterly untrue. Firstly, the macro level statistics - of the railway length inside KAR, and in comparison with other states' corresponding numbers tells a sad story by itself. There could be tens of other angles to analyse these data from, but they cannot lead to an entirely different inference.
The important thing is not when these lines were built, but the fact that they are here now
But the more important parameter that comes out of this analysis is the demand-supply gap, in terms of the time projects are taking to be agreed-upon and laid in KAR as opposed to many other states.
Electrification should only be done on double lines with high traffic
Unfortunately the chicken-egg situation that this is pointing at is that KAR might not get more electric lines unless we have more double-track percentage in the state. The doubling wont happen until there's a matching traffic demand. And apparently, the demand wont go up as long as we dont have trains running on routes that are indeed necessary. But this leads us to ask basic questions - why then does the Rly department see more demand in other states, and not in KAR? Why doesnt the dept. want to infuse the need to travel by rail in more people by making railways more attractive an option - like it has done in many other states? Doesnt the Rly dept. want to run a "business" in KAR?? While there is certainly a lot of demand (see links I posted above) there seems to be no match from the supply side.
And you seem to be an SME on the railways front or something - but its sad that you dont think electrification of tracks is beneficial indeed. It certainly adds more power, and hence more capacity, and hence reduced burden per route/run.
And now, talking about perspectives.. I think there is a serious gap visible here, typical of some urban satisfied souls. There are people who face this bitter railway reality in our state everyday, and there are people that spend a whole lot more (money and time) to travel the same distances that is far conveniently traveled by people in other states. People of Karnataka who have been living it up with the bad Rly situation here know best the magnitude of this crap we have in our state.
Although asking for the moon seems to be far from what you're proposing here, it is sad that you still believe daisy-chaining cities on railway tracks is still enough for a fast-growing state like KAR. And FYI, daisy chaining is close to what you've suggested about the Kodagu connection with MYS, BLR, HUB and other cities in that sequential order. Instead, we need to ask for a star-connection involving individual connections between every significant city-couple in the state as in - KOD-BLR, KOD-MYS, KOD-MLR, KOD-BEL, KOD-BID etc. If you think thats too much, then you're suppressing your expectations, and needs too.
Coming to the juvenile remark in your post, let me clarify that this is a federal union of states - into which each state agreed to merge (when the republic was formed) upon the condition that the new union would give better living conditions in all ways than by being alone. While the center takes a lot away from the state for the cause of the nation as a whole (the gold that KAR generates, the Iron ore that KAR generates, the sandalwood that KAR generates, the s/w that KAR generates etc. etc.) it is highly warranted to at-least expect on-par treatment with other states. In fact a look at the stats given on this thread, on-par is far from reality. And how can you be sure that there is a shortage of need (demand) in our state - which is why we dont have the supply? Your argument in this direction is full of pitfalls. Besides, with an eye for progress and a glorious state that we want to build (assuming you're part of that too), the kind of complacent attitude displayed in your comment is not the stuff that can help us reach there!
BTW, so what if MLR-KOD is tough because of ghats? Didnt the Konkan railway not pass through the same western ghats? And what do you know about the kind of problems eastern ghats poses - and what are the railways laid out there? Please look into your data bank in this regard and re-think..
-Nijavaada
more maps?
A good job indeed with the map there.. but can you also let us know the time-stamp of this map? And a corresponding map of Bihar and TN with the same time-stamp could help place our argument in context.
Your analysis is of course a perfect fit into the puzzle here, but a comparison is the other piece that completes it - hence we need to have those additional maps as well.
-Nijavaada
@ admin
Is it possible for you to please copy a comment onto another thread, instead of just moving it out of this one? I find that one comment posted by Yajaman on this thread was relevant here too.. I wonder why it had to be removed from here and place on another similar thread. Please explore ways to duplicate a comment on more threads - especially when the destination thread is closely related to the original thread.
Would help maintain sanity in discussions on Praja.
-Nijavaada
Re:Let's be structured
And you seem to be an SME on the railways front or something - but its sad that you dont think electrification of tracks is beneficial indeed. It certainly adds more power, and hence more capacity, and hence reduced burden per route/run.
If you read my comment carefully, I never stated that electrification of tracks was not beneficial. All I said was that done independently of doubling, it would have little effect. We need to push for rapid doubling of our trunk routes and electirification immediately thereafter. And I do not work for the railways or have any connections to it (whatever SME means).
FYI, Karnataka has the most powerful diesel locomotives in the country - housed at the railway sheds in Bangalore and Hubli.
Although asking for the moon seems to be far from what you're proposing here, it is sad that you still believe daisy-chaining cities on railway tracks is still enough for a fast-growing state like KAR. And FYI, daisy chaining is close to what you've suggested about the Kodagu connection with MYS, BLR, HUB and other cities in that sequential order. Instead, we need to ask for a star-connection involving individual connections between every significant city-couple in the state as in - KOD-BLR, KOD-MYS, KOD-MLR, KOD-BEL, KOD-BID etc. If you think thats too much, then you're suppressing your expectations, and needs too.
Daisy-chaining is, to a large extent, economically more effective. Instead of having a line from MYS-Madikeri and another from Bangalore-Madikeri, it would be economically efficient (not to mention faster and less complicated) to double the line from Bangalore-Mysore-Madikeri. That way, more trains can be run between Bangalore-Mysore, Bangalore-Madikeri and Mysore-Madikeri, with lesser investment than constucting individual lines to all three destinations. That is why I'm all for daisy-chaining.
While the center takes a lot away from the state for the cause of the nation as a whole (the gold that KAR generates, the Iron ore that KAR generates, the sandalwood that KAR generates, the s/w that KAR generates etc. etc.)
Are you sure? AFAIK, most of the iron ore from Karnataka is exported by mine-owners and companies like KIOCL, to China via Mangalore and Mormugao ports. The centre has nothing to do with iron ore. Even with sandalwood, a majority of it is used by KSDL to make Mysore Sandal Soap, and the rest is given to various state-run agencies for carving nd processing etc. Very little, if any, is "taken away" by the centre. As to gold, how much do we produce anyway? KGF is dead and Hutti is on its last legs.
it is highly warranted to at-least expect on-par treatment with other states. In fact a look at the stats given on this thread, on-par is far from reality.
Asking for on-par treatment with all states would be unrealistic. Do you expect the Centre to allott the same number of trains (or any other resources) to Karnataka (with 52 million people) as it does to Uttar Pradesh (with 166 million people) or to Goa (with 1 million people). What we should be concerned about is whether we're being provided proportionally to our needs. And for that, we firstn need to assess our needs, which is why another thread has been started for the purpose. So, rather than bemoaning fate, it would be more useful if you could contribute constructively to the effort.
And how can you be sure that there is a shortage of need (demand) in our state - which is why we dont have the supply? Your argument in this direction is full of pitfalls.
I have not explicitly stated so - all I wanted to point out was that when not sure of the facts, one must avoid making claims in either direction. Support any statement (whether it is the presence or absence of demand) by hard facts and I will be the first person to back you on it. As of now, I would neither deny nor accept the presence or absence of demand in Karnataka, till facts are clear.
BTW, so what if MLR-KOD is tough because of ghats? Didnt the Konkan railway not pass through the same western ghats?
Let me reiterate - difficult does not equate to impossible. We can definitely have a Kodagu-Mangalore or any other line through the ghats, but practically it will take time, given the efficiency of our state agencies. I speak from experience, having seen how long it took for HMRDC to complete the gauge conversion project from Sakleshpur to Mangalore - ten years for a measly 140 km. With this kind of track record, I am not particularly optimistic about a Madikeri-Mangalore line.
Finally, this verbal sparring will get us nowhere. Rather than being bitter about the past, let's look ahead and join hands in a constructive effort to prepare a Vision Plan for Karnataka's railways.
Regards,
~~~~
Manish, Nagarbhavi.
~~~~
Manish.
a short change favouring structure..
If one has to find out about the real needs of a people, it is unfortunate that you still want to stick to websites of departments whose works are what we're calling deplorable in our state! Unfortunately you seem to be surrounded by ignorance of reality w.r.t railways and the need in our state. Go out there and ask people around. That'll surely be equally "constructive" an activity.
And the fact that you seem to be just flaring your guns in haste shows clearly in your not understanding my on-par factor. Clear from statistics presented earlier on this thread was the percentage (both based on state area, and population) of railways coverage in Karnataka. While the nett running length ratio is deplorable, so also is the electrified length. I dont use double-track for electrified rly - because its not a bidirectional assignment. Again here, proportional to our needs is something that you've got mistaken here.
Anyway, I would like the fact about collating information to understand the need of a state. But not if the effort constantly smells of this over-optimistic assumption that our needs are all met - when those needs are themselves what we're out to "survey"!! But bottomline that responsible (useful) Praje here must remember is the fact that in our current setup, it is not need alone that must drive any projects that we ask for our state. Unfortunately that IS the trend, and we just need to follow it. Of course no one needs a BT between Bihar and Delhi, and no one needs a high-speed highway in our country when road humps are more favourable to majority. What we actually need to do is make sure we have what it takes to REACH where we want to go, even while there are people that might think a particular people are asking more than their "need"..
-Nijavaada
Get really politically savvy!
The subject and comments are extremely well argued and lucid. Why we are not getting what we deserve? I have some points.
Finally it is the willingness of State Politicians to forget their differences, combine with Industry and cohesively put up their case will work.We don't know when we will do this.