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Road engg at ORR/OMR junction at KR Puram

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Project number:2635
Opened by:srkulhalli
Opened on:Monday, 28 September 2009 - 5:50pm
Last modified:Wednesday, 6 October 2010 - 9:38am
Operations:add Case | view all project cases

This project is a result of this discussion on road engineering issues around ORR/KR Puram chaos. Goal of this project is to engage with BDA etc to communicate road designs issues that members have noted, and to request them to act on some suggestions. Output of this project would be one of these two

  1. Best case- Some road design upgrades at this area, OR
  2. Worst case, members get deeper understanding of why such common wisdom is hard to translate into action

Hope to get at least 5-6 members to join this project. Remote members (1 or 2) can help do all the design documentation, local members will work to organize the meetings.

Wish this project all the best.

[created by admin - assigned suhas as project manager]

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srkulhalli's picture

Project is Still alive !

Glad to see there is still interest ! We should meet up...

IDS, you in Bangalore now ?



idontspam's picture

Messaging Suhas

By the way, I can helpup in sketchup drawing

Thanks, I lost all my drawings in a hard disk crash. I didnt have the guts to start over. If you are in Bangalore we should meet up along with Suhas.

Suhas do PM your number if you are around.

Bheema.Upadhyaya's picture

3Dwarehouse is place to upload

 To upload and share, you may upload to 

I am replying toooooo late? By the way, I can helpup in sketchup drawing. I used it to design my home.


" My mantra to public bodies=> Enable->Educate->Enforce. Where does  DDC  fit?"
idontspam's picture

More details possible

Is this something you can clean up ? If not,  I am thinking of getting someone  help on pictures, but that will take a few months

Adding more details is definitely possible. The quality of images will unfortunately be the same but I will try to supplement with text (most of it from this thread), it will become quite verbose. Let me give it a shot before you reach out. The solution will still need some explaining face to face. 

srkulhalli's picture

On ORR ahead


Finally have got a BDA contact (whew!)  I think the thinking and points you raise are good, howevre, the pictures do not complement. I find it difficult to understand the pictures myself,  will not be able to explain. Needs to be self-sufficient, ie somebody need not have to go through the discussion or have good familiarity with the junction in question to understand the issues or solutions being proposed. Some specific comments -

 Needs to be supported by image/pictures

 eg: Need birds eye view of junction in consideration and supporting photos of the problems, eg: of pedestrian crossing

 Also needs a bird eye view picture


 Could not make much sense of the pictures.

Is this something you can clean up ? If not,  I am thinking of getting someone  help on pictures, but that will take a few months.


srkulhalli's picture

Good, next step SB


Will go through and comment in detail. Anyways, good, I thought you had forgotten about it :)

Meanwhile, Silkboard, can you dig up some contacts in BDA, while we fine tune this over the next week


Naveen's picture

It's not about money


The tunnels in china are very well monitored & lighting, ventilation, drainage, safety, etc. are as good as any in the west. Some of the tunnels are even better than the Holland or Lincoln tunnel in NewYork since they are newer.

Whilst there is no doubt that money can be raised through private participation & tolling of tunnels, the real challenge would be to enforce a proper system of maintenance, safety & discipline as it is has been for our roads.


idontspam's picture

HO-PT in the long run

 The remaining issues should be taken care off with the other short/medium term plans discussed..

You are right, Most private transport issues will be solved by the short term plan. 

However, the ORR will become an artery for all Airport to IT corridor traffic. There will need to be mass transit corridors on this as well. Currently it is called a BRTS lane in plans. So if you ran a High Occupancy surface light rail on the ORR median all along the ORR from Hebbal to Silkboard/EC, the tunnel will be well worth it in the long run. The tunnel could have an u/g light rail station near where it crosses the KR Puram station, so it can integrate with not only the station but also the bus stand on the surface (built in the short term plan) carrying ITPL passengers from the Byappanahalli metro/bus interchange. This light rail will connect the High speed rail/metro at Hebbal to KRPuram, Marathalli, Silkboard & Electronic city along the ORR.

 was wondering if we ever will have money to build tunnels!

I am sure we will find a way. Everyone else with our size has :) Otherwise we should be ashamed.

blrsri's picture

grand plans ids but..

..was wondering if we ever will have money to build tunnels!

Was wondering if a traffic composition analysis would help solve the problem I understand, the major traffic around the area in discussion is office commuters moving towards ITPL/KIADB area and truck traffic(Tumkur road to Hosur rd).

Some of the truck traffic is already using the NICE PRR..however the rest should take the other PRR that BDA is upto..If the trucks are removed..the remaining traffic will be of office commuters..either by self driver vehicles or PT..

If we have the metro rail extended to ITPL/Whitefield..which is probably getting drawn up in the coming DPR(wasnt it due in sept?)..and this should remove most of the traffic in that junction..

The remaining issues should be taken care off with the other short/medium term plans discussed..


idontspam's picture

Tunnel roads

6 lane 6 km tunnel road under the Yangtse river in China

The 6km, 6 lane Södra Länken tunnel road in Stockholm

idontspam's picture

Long term solution

 For the long term solution presented in my analysis. Blue lines are the tunnel to connect the ORR& NH4 without traffic having to go Benninganahalli. ORR will be 2 way in the tunnel, while to NH4 eastbound will only have exit ramp which will drop traffic well past the cable stayed bridge. All other traffic will continue to use the current roads. 

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idontspam's picture


Click here for a draft of the analysis. Please provide your inputs as comments so I can collate and revise the ppt.

tsubba's picture


mannisa beku if i come across as combative but, and how are we going to lay out meaningful requirements without knowledge and having run some back of the envelop calculations(BEC) ourselves? afterall BEC is what these are. but without even these, if go and say ri road riperi maaDi. they will aaytu saar. and get contractor to mix dambar to sand

no please dont get me wrong, i understand what you are talking about. but engaging is a interpersonal issue and requires some finesse and jaaNme in how you project your concern and knowledge.

if you read major kapur et al., what comes out? they are persistent, respectful and highly knowledgeable. for example, about things like road surfacing and drain making, people like him know what is "correct science", what is "feasible", and what is possible.


srkulhalli's picture

Strategy for engagement

Subbanavare, nivu halidu nija - parentu ade problemu. If we talk from a position of knowledge, there is the "nivu yaru, namga helavru" smirking inside. Human nature, thats all. If we can somehow make it look like teamwork, absorbtion will be better. Key is to get them to think on these lines.

The best is to tell them these are the requirements, these are our proposed solutions, what do you think and try and get multiple follow ups where we come back more sophisticated each time. One discussion is a problem, it gets forgotten after that.

Anyways, will wait for IDS - Sketchup - I have been there before -- its temptingly close (no, you cant paint unless its a surface), but that can take longer (and then longer) to clean up. If he gets good at it, maybe he can give three 3D drawings .  Or he will just get frustrated and switch to plain old power point.

IDS,, expecting the whole works (in the form of a presentation) to discuss with BDA (and not just drawings) from you.



s_yajaman's picture

Agree with Suhas too

I think engineering a solution to this is quite complex.  Our job should be to lay out requirements

a. How to facilitate lane discipline - not just people driving in lanes, but driving in the desired lane

b. How to avoid sudden braking due to sharp/badly engineered curves.  Sudden braking is not very good for traffic movement.

c. How does one ensure pedestrian safety?  Crossing, waiting

d. How does one make sure BMTC has its place in the scheme of things?


Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

sanjayv's picture

Agree with Suhas

 I think what Suhas is suggesting makes sense.  We should make a simple requirements document talking about smooth merging of traffic, pedestrian facilities, bus shelters etc. Once the basic requirements are written up, list something like 3 plans with simple figures and very basic details and engage with BDA/BBMP.  Through a give and take process, we can collectively improve the design.  Can also engage with organizations like City Connect w(ho did the MS Ramiah junction study) or CiSTUP to fill in more details as the project evolves.

That may be a better approach than investing a lot of time in nailing down the nitty gritty details here.

idontspam's picture

Tension yaake

Subbannanavare,  Drawing chennagide ree, 3Dyalli. Sariyag fill aagtha illa ashte, ond brush iddre color odkkondu muguskobodhu kelsaa. Wireframe alli nannage road yelli platform yelli antha gothagthaa illa.

in poorva janma you must have done some engineering graphics, no?

No I may have been a BBMP engineer.

tsubba's picture


yaakO ayDiyessu, ishTond stressu? in poorva janma you must have done some engineering graphics, no? Taap vyu, side vyu anta haeLkoTidralla. use that no?

i work with top view. mostly. it works. my workshorse computer is still in shipping. will get back if you need help.

idontspam's picture


 Honestly, your other figures are more understandable. 

:)... I thought so too... In your help document 8.b.ii  & 8.c.ii was where I wasted 90% of my weekend away. I essentially now have only wireframes and not able to get any of them to fill up.

8.b.ii (Surfaces) They may not be in a plane. One point may be off and you can spend the rest of your weekend finding it.

I still cant get the wall on one side to fill up. Why cant they let me paint with a brush like MS Paint?

8.c.ii Draw in 2D and finish your drawing before you extend to 3D (push – pull or rotate/move ). Once you go into 3D, you may inadvertently be taking a point in the 3D (and not on the surface), since it uses inference.

I drew the pavements and pushed them to 3D and now I cant get the pedestrian crossings to fill up since it is not coplanar. 

tsubba's picture

meaningful engagement

houdri suhas, nija. but that applies to any group of people including private companies.

but the folks who have put in thought and comeup with sols can now engage from a position of knowledge, no? they now know the problems at this intersection well. know what all needs to be done. and also know atleast one set of solutions to the problem. 

so when they talk to concerned people, they cannot be sold on  haars haeLidd handwavy stock answers.

srkulhalli's picture

Engage rather than solve ?

IDS & others

Saw your google sketchup - have sent a help doc to you as well. Honestly, your other figures are more understandable. I think this will take a lot of time to get right, specially given the time constratins you have.

I was thinking, instead of proposing a solution to BDA/BBMP, you can enter two or three options (including the CTTP one) discussed here in a simple but clear 2D drawing (power point/ freehand scan), and with the pros and cons listed. We then go to BDA and ask them their opinion on what they think is better and what solutions they are thinking.

In my little experience, if we go with a solution and say do this, most likely they will say we will look at it and will get forgotten. More important is to get them thinking and get into the process of exploring and evaluating options.

We can always tell them we can develop it better, if they are serious about any particular idea.


Naveen's picture

Road modification fine, but enforcement ?


The extra road is a possible solution for this particular problem. However the backup from the chicken neck is even bigger. I feel landing the ORR here was an intrusion.

Instead of adding "extra" lane/s on the left of OMR (from Benniganahalli), I think the emphasis must be to "shift" a couple of lanes from the right so that the attributes of the road are maintained throughout - ie. from the underbridge all the way past the cable-stayed bridge.

If "additional" lanes are created, a future problem, as identified by IDS above, will be the chicken neck, which will soon become insufficient with pile-ups.

Further, once segregation & conflicts are eliminated with this lane shifting, a barricade would have to be erected to prevent cross overs, & proper pedestrian facilities developed with availability of vacated lanes with an extra-large median or island.

Much more enforcement is primary & a neccessity at the chicken neck to segregate pedestrians & traffic. The traditional Laissez Faire attitude is being overcome by large scale solutions whilst simple enforcement is being ignored everywhere repeatedly - this cannot continue any longer.

However, I still maintain that the best (& correct) solution is as recommended in CTTP, which is to re-align the ORR parallel to the salem rail track, with provision of a clover leaf & ramps for inter-changing between OMR-ORR & vice versa.


idontspam's picture

Addition of roadspace

 lot of melee when the traffic enters from the ORR bridge and merges with the OMR(from benniganahalli)

The extra road is a possible solution for this particular problem. However the backup from the chicken neck is even bigger. I feel landing the ORR here was an intrusion and if any addition of road space is required here it should be to tunnel atleast 2 lanes of the ORR from Ben. bridge all the way to to where it rises after the cable bridge. Net addition to roadspace is cause for chaos. I would actually recommend reserving the extra road you have added to make it a cycle and pedestrian track.

blrsri's picture

Perfect Thampan..

 All credits to you...

One thing that needs to be taken care off putting this road is waterproofing..the proposed lane runs very close to the tank bund and adequate water proofing will be needed..!

thampan's picture


blrsri's picture

Just before the hanging bridge..

Have seen that there is lot of melee when the traffic enters from the ORR bridge and merges with the OMR(from benniganahalli)..peds are also affected a lot..the main reasons as I see are as below..

1. Truck trailers parked on the left most lane as the OMR bridge lands..sometimes cops detain these for paper checks

2.OMR traffic trying to get onto the ORR coming from Benniganahalli

3. Bus stops sometimes occupying two lanes of roads

4. Kolar/Chitoor and other busses stopping to pick up passenfers just at the start of the hanging bridge 

Was seeing the satellite pic of this area and found that an additional lane can be carved out for OMR traffic getting to the ORR as below

This should be easy to do..and will regularize the traffic at the junction and address point 1 and 2 above..

Also the bus stops and truck stops needs to be removed and ORR bus stop normalized.   

idontspam's picture

1st Day 1st Cut

Here is the first cut using sketchup. Still a lot of rough edges. Just when I am getting the hang of it the weekend is over. Hope I remember the tricks by the time I get back to it next weekend

Distance and locations of objects not to scale.

Surprisingly Google docs doesnt let you share sketchup files, only office & html. Let me know if somebody would like to have the skp file.

Hope praja tech can allow uploading of skp files.

idontspam's picture

Why sidewalk?

 is there a need for a sidewalk on the RHS parallel to the cable stayed bridge ?

The lanes will anyway need to be centered to allow for bus bays and proper curving before the chicken neck. This allows space closer to the walls of the bridge which can either be hatched with no use or paved for people to walk to the NH4 bus stand on on the chevron. Both are feasible. From a vehicle perspective sidewalks dont matter. So, think how you can network the 4 bus stands (2 at KRP, 2 at TinF) on this side for people to be able to walk between all of them and also to cross over thru the existing u/p and another u/p closer to tin factory that needs to be tunnelled to cross NH4. 

thampan's picture

necessity of sidewalk on RHS?


is there a need for a sidewalk on the RHS parallel to the cable stayed bridge ? Would not a wider sidewalk on the LHS be better and serve the public more ?

I do not see much rationale for a side walk on the RHS on this stretch. I think that it would be similar to a sidewalk in the middle of the road.



Transmogrifier's picture

Low impact changes

IDS, SB, and others on the project,

I think whenever we get the opportunity to speak with those concerned (BDA, NHAI, BTP, BTMC) we should sell this as a low-cost, high-impact experiment. Using the word  'experiment'  implies that almost all the improvements can be modified or reversed.

  1. Bus bays, lane marking, chevrons are all relatively easy to mark over.  
  2. The LHS pavement on both sides of the ORR lanes (that run along the Cable-stayed bridge) could be permanently laid in concrete (2nd pic).
  3. The RHS pavement on the other hand (based on IDS' suggestion) can just be painted on the existing road surface(1st pic) although will need substantial protection from street traffic (2nd pic). This would make it amenable to changes as and when required (based on when (and if) Metro Ph-2 makes it here).


idontspam's picture

Info for long term

 In this re-engineering, we should probably think about the sustainability of the solution 10 years into the future

Agree, I have always believed we should have both short term and long term plans. While we get the short term plan (Optimizing throughput) in shape it will be good if one of you take up getting information from BBMP/BDA/NHAI as to what the long term plans for this place are. Solutions from our side should not be seperate from what is being planned by authorities already and what the timelines for that are. We should evaluate those plans and provide inputs.

thampan's picture

@IDS regarding bandwidth

I would say that we should  look into the future development plans, deliberate on them and present plans as well. 

IMO, when the cable bridge and the ORR fly overs were being constructed, it would have been very easy to construct the red road that i had shown. It would also have been easy at that point of time to divert the traffic from ORR hebbal side to Kolar via Rama moorthy nagar.

It may even have been possible to design the ORR in such a way that it avoids touching the KR puram railway station. Of course there may have been other cost and planning constraints as to why it ended up as it is today, but in my opinion, there was a lack of long range planning. 

In this re-engineering, we should probably think about the sustainability of the solution 10 years into the future. Given the pace at which public works happen, the utility of the project should not reduce by the time it is  implemented.

Of course, there can be a short term and long term plan with the short term looking at how to efficiently utilize existing bandwidth and infrastructure and the long term looking at a larger time frame.

idontspam's picture

Using bandwidth

 It might be better to make provision/s for these future developments in any proposals for road plans.

One key reason not to build anything new now but to utilize the current bandwidth more efficiently.

idontspam's picture


You have both sort of defined the objective well. Pedestrians are an important aspect to consider not just here but in most of India. When we start looking at peds we will realize we will actually have to reclaim some lanes to provide them the facilities. This is contrary to the well established belief that we need more asphalt space. Where public transport infrastructure like train stations are present, the pedestrian paths need to be developed to take them safely across roads and highways in to other PT modes or to local streets. If you cant do this then there is no point building PT infrastructure

This particular stretch cannot lay claim to be BDA's ORR or NHAI's NH4  or a BBMP's arterial road very clearly. It is a mix of all. One of my suggestion was to keep the NH4 part free from peds thats why I didnt connect PedX1 across the highway. So you still get the NH4 traffic flowing free all the way on Lanes 4, 5&6. Since ORR has landed on to the surface without being tunnelled through or flying over to connect to itself we need to make it flow on surface streets on surface street terms till it can reconnect itself back. The surface street cannot be held hostage to an ORR intrusion since pedestrians and PT is getting compromised.

The larger goal being, the authorities need to establish the process of guiding traffic in the right direction instead of letting the vehicles (&Pedestrians) sort out problems on their own on the streets as is being done now.

Transmogrifier's picture

A true ORR or an Arterial road?

@ Rithesh and others,

There is one thing that we all need to figure out going into this project and that we intend to make the ORR stretch (alongside the cable stayed bridge) look more like a true ORR or more like an arterial road. Going by the nature of properties on this stretch, it's probably easier to convert it to a arterial road albeit with 1-2 ped Xs. A vastly improved pedestrian infrastructure (railings et al.) and a bus bay (or two) would also help the cause. I feel like this is the way to go, it's cheap, ease and if it works well could be a blueprint for how road design and engineering give us a bigger bang for the buck.

Converting it to an ORR on the other hand as BDA and everyone else realizes means more acquistion, more demolition and all the ensuing commotion. In the long run I really hope goes either the way of the CTTP recommendation to run alongside the Salem line or (in my opinion) try to get ORR traffic to use the bridge and loop them back to the Whitefield Road flyover.



Naveen's picture

OMR may have Metro towards KR Puram

Hi Suhas /IDS,

I think we need to bear in mind that Metro phase-2 will most likely include a track extension from Byappanahalli to ITPL via KR Puram. In this case, the (elevated) track is most likely to run adjacent the ORR lanes on the northern side of OMR (in way of the bridge) since it would emanate from Byappanahalli station on the northern side & routing /planning the viaduct will also be simpler if it is carried along the northern side (It may cross over to the southern side only after clearing the bridge).

Also, a Metro station will most certainly be planned adjacent the present KR Puram SWR station.

It might be better to make provision/s for these future developments in any proposals for road plans.

srkulhalli's picture


Will wait for IDS to complete the presentation.

IDS, if you are at google sketchup, a 1 hr demo will save you a month. We need to plan this sometime. Let me know your whereabouts.


sanjayv's picture

Benninganahalli bridge widening

 I saw two concrete structures that have been cast on either side of the Ben bridge.  Was told by some folks that these structures will be "pushed" under the bridge to open two lanes on either side of the bridge.  After diverting traffic to these outlets, apparently, the existing tunnel will be widened. 

Rithesh's picture

Lets get some info

Lets get some info from the authorities:

1. What is the status of the land acquisition initiated by BDA to acquire railways land opposite to the station (this piece of land is very crucial to remove the bottle neck).

2. What is the status of the Benganahalli railway bridge widening project. During the LS elections, there were reports that this project had got the clearance from the railways and the project was supposed to start soon.

3. BDA plans to covert the roads on either side of the bridge into a 3 lane road. This is logical because these roads are part of the ring road. There a lot of buildings that needs to be demolished (worst part is that there is a mosque also - acquiring religious places has always been tricky). We can find out if BDA has served any notice to these people and if so what is its status.

RTI or just approach the BDA/railways with these queries?
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