[Update, Aug 20: Took out reference to the reformatted 1.8 version, embedded latest (version 2.3) Jan Lokpall Bill draft, and the one that was introduced in Lok Sabha]
The group India Against Corruption is doing a super job of raising the pitch against ineffective legislations to combat corruption in public services. They are proposing two peices of legislations, one of which is the "Jan Lokpal Bill" at the center, which is designed to be a replacement of "The Lokapl Bill" drafted by Government of India.
JLP draft:
Next, the govt draft:
Forward this Blog entry
Comments
Lokayukta Bill, for states, will post separately
As I understand it, many mix up the two proposals from IAC. This one here is for central govt, "Lokpal Bill". There is another proposal for states, "Lokayukta Bill". Will upload that in a separate post, need a PDF of Karnataka's current Lokayukta bill to put up side by side. Searching for it.
read this in full, and also some editorials on Lokpal concept
May be we should discuss this on a separate post, but after reading the bill proposal in full (above), and opinions on the Lokpal bill like this one - "The Hazare hazard", I am not sure that this bill would be that magic bullet to clean out so called 'corruption'.
Will leave this post alone to disucuss specifics of the draft proposal from IAC.
a battle we musn't lose
Forget Anna Hazare. The Jan Lokpal movement can go to hell for all I care. Let us just look at the issues over which the battle between the Government and us citizens is being fought. And then let’s decide where we want to stand, each one of us, on the issue of corruption.
The first question is: Do corruption and bribery hurt you? If they do, do you want a solution? If your answer is yes to both, do you think such a solution lies with an independent authority? Or do you think a corrupt Government can fight corruption on its own, and within its own ranks? If your answer is no to that, then we need to create an independent institution to fight corruption. Right? Well, that’s precisely what Anna is asking for. He is asking for a Lokpal that the Government cannot influence nor manipulate. This is the first battle.
For the full article by Pritish Nandy, click here
Jan LokPal and Lack of Corporate Support
It is heartening that the middle class, the salaried of India are out on the streets this time: we are hit the hardest. Our income strictly controlled but our expenses (read bribes) increasing every year...
On the other hand, it is sad that few corporates have come forth strongly supporting action against corruption. While, all the "'Business Leaders' have definitely spouted their few mandatory words of support, how is that these corporations dont step up and talk about how difficult doing business in India is, how often they are asked for bribes, how ofthen they have to pay it to just stay afloat.
Obviously, they cannot: for they are as much beneficiaries in the system as are the politicians and the bureaucracy. How many of our top 20 businesses (read conglomerates) in India today (keeping the IT sector out) have developed and grown because of talent, innovation and creativity? And how many because they have friendly politicians?
Sanity lost in the den of Lokpal theatrics!
Really sad to see that public angst anf frustration against their #1 enemy is being hijacked into "Myway or Highway" and "Parliament is Supreme" approach.
Murali Sir asked a question.
In zeal of this independent authority, should we create a super body who has super arching power to supervise each and every organ of the democracy? In the end who will LOKPAL the LOKPAL? Atleast I can vote out a politician after 5 years without having to prove my point.
This is not my assertion alone. Let us listen to the current CVS Satyendra Sharma's views on this:
Courtesy - Indian Express, Walk the Talk with CVC
Looking for a superhero is
Looking for a superhero is another fallacy, all we need to do is create an independent unit which can interrogate, investigate, press charges, take the person to court & also fight the case till conviction.
Look at HK's ICAC, it had no super hero, no person who stood out but yet brought down corruption by public servants from 80% in the 70's to 30% in recent times. Huge difference from a motely bunch of guys who had no interference but were fully empowered to identify & take the case all the way doggedly to the end.
Either you are with us or with them!
Is this the spirit of Jan lokpal campaign for anti-corruption?
Courtesy - Deccan Herald, http://www.deccanherald.com/content/184515/jan-lokpal-magic-wand-root.html
This is what the hypocritical middle class and affluent are trying to muzzle the right of others who have a different viewpoint and approach towards the very anti-corruption efforts.
This is another manifestation of Anna and his team of "My way or highway" attitude. This clearly shows how this campaign is trying to shut the other voices. The crazy media in pursuit of commercial gains, lending its might and platform to further the cause of muzzling citizen's rights to dissent, the very right we demanded from the government.
‘PM’s ears covered by turban - Santosh Hegde!
This is how Justice Hegde refers to Prime Minister -
Courtesy - Bangalore Mirror
Seems with UPA Govt kneeling down, the self appointed, self-righteous team is already high with sense of victory and the result Justice Santosh Hegde has lost his sobriety.
It doesn't behoove him well to caricature the Country's PM with such below the belt remarks. That too remarking about a Turban, is a remark against PMs religious faith and his right to practice it.
Justicve Hegde may not like the PM and his party, his works , his abilities and inabilities, but Justice Hedge doesn't have the right to call the PM with such low remarks. This is unacceptable.
I certainly demand an apology from Justice Hegde.
Jan Lokpal Bill
I am one of those who has been looking at the team Anna fasting approach with mixed feelings. I am among those who is not comfortable with the idea of a fast to shape a law. However, having read the government draft of the bill, it is clearly not a well thought out document. The Jan Lokpal draft is IMHO better, though I have my points of discomfort there as well. To me, what team Anna is asking for is a more public debate. it seems to me that this government is not interested in having a national dialog on this issue.
Corruption is a huge problem, and one law is not going to eliminate it. What is going to help is if (a) the right tone is set from the top (b) Any law passed is debated in a public forum - get feedback from the public, from the experts, argue, debate and yes bargain and put something workable out there.
Instead what I see is muddled arguments which try to avoid discussing the main points. Here are some example questions that I would like to see some debate on and choices made. (a) Is having an institution of Lokpal (and Lokayuktas a good idea? (b) If we agree on that, how will the LP,LA fit in our governance framework (c) Are we afraid that this will be too powerful a body? If so, how to put some checks on that to mitigate the risk? (d) Will having the PM under the ambit of LA reduce the PMs independence. We don;t want a paralyzed government. (e) What is the type of corruption we want the LP/LA to cover. Is PCA (Prevention of corruption Act) definition sufficient? (f) What other laws/ reforms will help reduce corruption?
I am ill equipped to answer these questions, but these are the things that should be debated and explained. As a citizen, I am willing to learn and throw my 2 cents in there if there is something for me to contribute. Somehow, everybody seems to only either criticize or idolize. I for one,want some constructive activity.
Another plus - it looks like IAC/Team Anna is willing to change their stance from this article. This is just good, old fashioned bargaining. Ask for a lot, sound unreasonable and then when things come to a head, withdraw to a position more reasonable. if the government has any sense, they should use their "bully pulpit" to guide this debate. the very fact that they are not tells me that there is n will from that side to tackle corruption. Hence, I am all for supporting Anna's demand, however unreasonable that sounds sometimes.
will the government respond positively at least now?
Thanks Sanjay for sharing that TEHELKA article. If what it says is true, and if the government can respond in a positive way, now that they have become aware of the real anger amongst the public, perhaps we have a solution in sight.
Here are two responses of mine on "savekoramangala y-group", the context they are made in being fairly self-explanatory:
1) @ Mr N - There admittedly are grey areas in the Jan LokPal bill, as also in the approach of Team Anna to having it passed. However, quite like you, if I too am supporting him, it's because of the way the government is seen to be approaching the whole issue - from framing a toothless bill after sitting on the draft for decades together, then trying to make out as if, once elected, they are the supreme authority answerable to none, and going on to say that the civil society has no role to play at all, on top of heaping insults on them. Well, it's perhaps when all rational approaches to making the government accountable have failed that you and I are prepared to back an unconventional and not too rational an approach, plainly out of desperation.
And, as for those making pious preachings saying in effect that if people stop paying bribes, things will automatically fall in place, I would like to know how many of them themselves, or through brokers, have not paid bribes. That's where Dr Kaushik Basu (none less than the economic adviser to the PM)'s recent suggestion, of amending the Prevention of Corruption Act to hold only the taker of bribes guilty, makes immense sense. The sarkari babu is in a position of privilege, and very rarely can you carry on your day to day life, particularly if you are running a business (smaller the worse), without falling prey to him. My own experience I have narrated here, and even talked about it openly on national television (the then only Doordarshan) over an interview by Nalini Singh. Mr Basu rightly believes that if they are not held guilty, many will come forward to lodge complaints after paying the bribe. I had taken a chance.
The above can perhaps largely take care of most of the coercive corruption. Collusive corruption needs separate handling.
Whatever said and done, it required an Anna to rattle the politicos, which they definitely have been, including of the opposition.
And, what amazes me is the support from the youth of the country (entire IIMB is supposedly skipping their lunches - and, IIM students you would generally consider rational). Perhaps what they are saying is that "hum hai kaamyaab", producing as the youth already are world class products and offering world-class services; "magar, government kaamyaab hoga bhi nahin, aur kisi ko hone bhi nahin dega". And, they don't seem to have yours and my patience.
2) @ ND - A serious anomaly in the Sarkari LokPal bill, as I have understood, is the provision for probing the doings of NGO's, even at the Village Panchayat level. In this context, I wish to submit, that the scope of the word "corruption" should be limited to cases of misuse of public/ tax-payers' money. Mis-use of non-public funds is simple and straight forward cheating, which can be tackled under Sec 420 and other provisions of law. If, on the other hand, the LokPal/ Ayukta is to come into the picture in cases of mis-use of funds by office-bearers of NGO's, not just 5 but even a 100 LokPal's/ Ayukta's will be enough. Of course, if an NGO has obtained government funding, it is a different matter.
And, the most disquieting part of the Sarkari bill, again as I have understood, are the draconian provisions for so-called frivolous complaints, even as the defendant government servant is given the help of the state machinery to put up his defence.
Govt Lokpal bill and NGOs
What I gathered from a reading of the govt version of the bill is that NGOs getting a substantial amount of govt funding come under the ambit of lokpal.
They also define NGOs that get a large amount of funding from public donations with an annual income exceeding an amount to be specified by the govt from time to time to come under the lokpal as well. It is this second clause that can be probably removed. This should be investigated and prosecuted by the criminal justice system.
In fact, I am of the opinion thsat the whole NGO thing be dropped. Just make the govt official who is responsible for the oversight of the NGO in exchange for funds liable.
Sanjay, What do you have to say on this?
Courtesy - Times Of India
Isn't this undemocratic and anarchic?
What I have to say
Let him fast. Democracy means people have the right to say and do what they want, as long as it is legal. He does not want to eat food because he is not getting something he wants. Fine, let him go ahead and fast.
If the government (and opposition, i.e, politicians) engaged with society and demonstrated their seriousness to solve the problem, I for one would support that whole heartedly. Right now, do you see that happening? My current best option is Anna's approach. I'll take it for now.
If a government resolves to reduce solve the blight of corruption, they can do that. You don't need a lokpal law then. I think bihar is one example of moving in the right direction.
Plus here is an Arvind Kejriwal quote "Our demand is that a proper draft of the Lokpal bill which will effectively fight corruption should be presented in the parliament. And we will continue our fight for that...but it will all be peaceful," Kejriwal said. " Note that he is not saying Jan Lokpal bill should be passed in parliament.
Why only JLP should be placed before Parliament?
SanjayV, Murali,
On the surface of it all looks very lofty - Fight against corruption, Gandhian leading, Magasay award winners, PIL expert duo etc. But let us look at the questions you guys have asked.
(b) Any law passed is debated in a public forum - get feedback from the public, from the experts, argue, debate and yes bargain and put something workable out there.
Precisely the point, the authoritarian attitude of IAC's approach has led to suppression of any discussion other than the draft from IAC. In their pursuit of becoming messiah's themselves and retaining the whole pie of anti-corruption lofty, they pushed the nation, politics to not to look beyond Fasts and Dharnas. Are we going to say here that IAC represents all fo us? Certainly not me.
Let us assume if govt had accepted JLP in its inert version, would that have met the criterion that you listed? I am sorry instead of correcting the course we are making it more monstrous. Even if the JLP is passed, nothing is going to change on ground in terms of public participation in making of legislation.
Today the only course left for me to give my opinion on any prospective bill is to petition the Parliament's standing committees. I will only be super lucky to be called in and given an opportunity.There is lot of secrecy in making of legislation in parliament, with only MPs are privy to it. Along with pitch for JLP, the dismantling of this parliament secrecy should have been the paramount objective.
Instead of asking for fishnet, we have settled on getting the fish. No doubt this fish is very very important now and in near term.
The current process of legislative making process should be made transparent and open to public. That would have strengthen the institutions of legislation and set a template for all other bills to come. But IAC seems uninterested in making the legislative process transparent and inclusive.
This should have been the moment where a institutional mechanisms should have been forced to built within the system to make the 'Consultative Process' more robust, inclusive, transparency that paves the way for participation of ordinary soul like me in every bill that is being envisioned and tabled in the parliament. LP bill could have been the experiment in that direction and slowly fine tuned that process so that all other bills are legislated with opinions of many, instead of only few.
In frenzy of IAC's my way, other versions of Lokpal bill have been overlooked and completely sidelined. It is in our own interest that we also look at every other view that is being suggested. Very interesting is the competitive version of JLP from Aruna Roy and his team, though not necessary the panacea for Govt or IAC version.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/lokpal-bill-aruna-roy-and-ncpris-suggestions/172475-53.html
On a different thought, When the gross politically and legally incorrect arrest of Hazare made news, every Indian came out and protested, condemned. Most vocal was the hypocritical middle class, affluent, celebrities and front in line political parties. They did it rightly so. Every wrong has to be protested. But our protest has been very selective, prejudiced.
On a regular basis, activist in Kashmir, Assam, Nagaland are taken into preventive custody and arrested on every drop of the hat. We rarely hear the voices calling it a "Murder of Democracy", but vocal and first to claim it when it suits us.
BTW, I would not hesitate to lay the entire blame on political class primarily at the door UPA not to have taken steps to respond to various ills of the country inclduing corruption fast and effective enough.
But isn't that a black mail?
Sanjay,
Isn't that a blackmail and holding the nation to ransom? Why should only the JLP should be only lokpal mechanism? Why not NCPRI's version?
Is this the prescription for all other movements that are on horizon - From Kashmir to Telngana?
-Syed
@syed
Need a Peacemaker!
Sanjay,
The IAC team claims that they have researched and taken a lot of feedback and presented a proposal.
But it doesn't include govt version, NCPRI version and views of many others. Basically What it is, IAC received the feedback and incorporated what made sense to them and what they agreed with. Rejected the views that they don't agree. Perfectly alright and makes sense. This is how things are done.
But isn't this same argument made by the govt side also? Govt is saying, We looked into JLP version and incorporated what we think is good. We left out things we think are not to our liking. Anything wrong in this argument? We may disagree but can't be dismissed.
Somewhere we need to resign to the supremacy of govt's right to present its version. Otherwise we are undermining the very institution that is holding the nation for last 65 years and every day that breathes life into Idea of India.
Govt could become magnanimous and say OK we will sign on IACs dotted line. To me this is ducking the responsibility towards the nation and undermining the system of governance. This happening is remote possibility.
This is what I think is the best course of action.
Now the bill is with standing committee, govt is on record that one more round of invitation to IAC will be given by the committee. Wait for the established procedure of bill going through the standing committees drill with amendments and finally comes to LS and RS for debate and approval. Now is the time to influence the MPs to do the right thing and make the necessary changes to the govt version. What is wrong in this approach?
Anyhow opposition has promised to support Anna and his efforts, let them propose all the changes that IAC and opposition think that is better than govt version? MPs can move IAC version as private bill. Even if the govt bill is passed in LS with ruling majority, it has to pass with opposition majority in RS. It may fail there. There are checks and balances, if we believe and trusts them. Can understand people's cynicism with those checks and balances.
Even after the checks from opposition, if the bill is not to satisfactory to you, me and others, we still have democratic options left to get it right.
At that moment Dharna, fasts really makes sense and justify. Count me, I will also join the chorus then. May be bring down the govt and force the election.
At this moment what India need is an "Peacemaker" between Govt and opposing groups to bring the reconciliation between parties and pave way for a so called strong lokpal bill. Sadly there is nobody who can do this. Those who can do it have taken up anti-govt position. Opposition parties can play this role, but for votes they will not do this. Really Anna and IAC has pushed the government into hard and rock place. There is no way out for them. After sitting quiet for so long and series of missteps, govt has no option but to buckled to the popular mood of the country - Agree to Anna, Kejriwals, Bedis and Bhushans.
Truly sad and trying time for my nation. As an optimist, I still have confidence in that "idea of India" that was cherished on Jan 26, 1950. I am hopeful we will get out of this mess soon even if we have to go through those painful moments in next 15-20 days.
Nilekini on Parliament's Standing Committees!
Courtesy - IBNLive
Lok Pal bill Standing Committee
Will the Standing Committee consider the Jan Lok Pal bill proposed by Civil Society.
K.V.Pathy
Anna and team before Standing committee!
Pathy Sir,
The standing committee had invited Anna and his team. He and his team were given 3 days. According to other civil activist, it is very rear for any group to get 3 days of time before the committee. JLP has got its more than its due. Here is some scoop on this.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2370258.ece
The real crux of the matter is should the JLP version be compulsorily accepted by the committee? If it is so, why? What is so sacred about JLP? I think this is where most of us are going wrong to insist on JLP to be accepted. Why? Isn't by insisting, we are subverting the system? This is like PRAJA team saying Namma railu proposal be the only solution for CRS or traffic decongestion in city. Would that approach help?
Rejection at the committee is not the end of road for JLP. It has to be taken up LS and Rajya Sabha. It has to be passed by both the houses. Do you think govt version will have the field day without substantial amendments to it? No, on contrary It is possible that political parties in opposition may decide to vote out the bill, in that case govt will also go. Remember in RS govt is in minority. It will not be a smooth ride for any version leave alone the fate of govt version.
We should allow the process to run its course. Let us have faith in our systems. If the systems are weak let us strengthen them not bypassing or subverting them.
UPA 2 is in search of Magic Wand
Syed,
No magic wand to banish corruption: Prime Minister
http://www.hindustantimes.com/No-magic-wand-to-banish-corruption-Prime-Minister/Article1-715455.aspx
No magic wand to control inflation: Pranab
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/economy/no-magic-wand-to-control-inflation-pranab_573000.html
Action to recover black money in Swiss banks initiated: PM
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/action-to-recover-black-money-in-swiss-banks/496033/
When did Indian public start sending magicians to Parliament? Were the Indian Public searching for Magic Wands or who can find them while they elected them in last 2 general elections and several times earlier? Forget the ruling party, opposition parties too failed miserably, that is the precise reason Civil Society is doing what they are forced to do today. Even after 7 years of ruling, if they can not tame inflation & corruption, why do they hang on to power? Forget about the previous periods of the runing.
Is this democratic?
Team Anna consists of fascists, 'Maoists' and anarchists: Cong
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/team-anna-consists-of-fascists-maoists/831838/
Congress calls Anna corrupt; he denies the charges
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/cong-calls-anna-corrupt-he-denies-the-charges/175663-37-64.html
Allegations against Anna show nervousness of Congress: Team Hazare
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-08-14/news/29886526_1_anna-hazare-team-hazare-forces-of-right-reaction
This reminds me the time during Koramanga demolitions, see http://www.google.co.in/#hl=en&sa=X&ei=yShOTsyIAYTqrAf178SkAw&ved=0CBoQvwUoAQ&q=koramangala+demolitions&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=a6a19d7eac5b02b2&biw=1440&bih=645 . Please do not shoot the messenger if the message is inconvenient to the reciever
SC blasts Sibal's comments against CAG in 'scam'
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sc-blasts-sibals-comments-against-cag-in-s/740503/
He claims he upholds the constitution & says parliament has the last word. What about the constitutional bodies? They had tried similar things earlier with EC during TN Sheshan's time.
No scam, no loss in 2G spectrum sale: Kapil Sibal
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/newdelhi/Govt-rejects-CAG-findings-on-2G-spectrum-scam/Article1-647425.aspx
Why is one of his ex-colleague in ministry and another MP in ruling coalition cooling their heels in Tihar?
Moily's virtual clean chit to K G Balakrishnan
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/125962/moilys-virtual-clean-chit-k.html
This is You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/You+scratch+my+back+and+I'll+scratch+yours in plain speaking.
It seems like you have a preconcieved notion of this movement having a right wing support, if so let it be, what is wrong with that? In a democracy every one has a right to voice their opinion.
Ramesh
This is like PRAJA team
This is like PRAJA team saying Namma railu proposal be the only solution for CRS or traffic decongestion in city. Would that approach help?
There is a difference in this analogy, Namma Railu is the MOST cost effective solution for commuter rail but the BEST could be a Maglev or Elevated metro type which will blow the exchequer to bits.
So similarly trying to clean up CBI, CVC etc & making them work with so much political interference already entrenched may be a more expensive (& futile) to do in terms of time & effort than roll them up to an independent authority & remove interference in one shot.
Secondly even if Namma Railu can be considered to be the only cost effective solution for a commuter rail system it is not the only option for traffic decongestion. The frames of references used in this context is not correct.
Lastly there is no magic wand. Nobody says anything is a magic wand in itself. Lets not repeat this phrase again & again misleading the people.
Do you think govt version
Do you think govt version will have the field day without substantial amendments to it?
The 74th amendment implementation bill passed by Yeddy govt is a classic case. It proposed that the corporator nominate the members of the ward committee & also have the veto powers over the suggestions are made. So what is the purpose of this toothless committee? What did we get by trusting all the MLA's we voted to pass a law which will actually respect the spirit of the 74th amendment?
Right and Left Wing!
@ramesh_mbabu
Pls correct your remarks about right or left wing. None of my posts even remotely refers to the political tones of this movement and voices against it. May be you want to look at it that way. You are free to do that. I am not going to take that bait.
FYI, I considered and prefer to be in "CENTRAL" wing, where lies the India's well being and mine.
The long list of charge-sheet against govt, that you have listed is the side show to the real issue. If you are accusing the govt side of mudslinging, then there is equally and more below the belt campaign from Anna's team. Only the other day Justice Hegde calls the PM deaf because of his Turban. Even if this was cheeky comment, it doesn't behoove people like Hegde to resort to settle score with the PM in this manner. He is making comments about PM's attire, symbols of his personal faith? Are we bankrupt of words and phrases to have civility in the debate?There is a daily dose of uncivilized phrase match between the two. Result is the real debate on to what should be in the bill has been pushed to the corner and we are fighting on side issues of who said what.
There are 3 fundamental issues that I considered to be paramount in today's situation:
These are the issues that we should ponder upon. Not whether it is right or left wing? Who says what? We can have differences on each of the above 3 issues. But in democracy there is golden rule of "Agreeing to disgaree".
What constitutes corruption?
The other day during the conversation, IDS brought up very pertinent question as to what consitutes corruption.
Both the JLP and govt version relies heavily on "Prevention of Corrution Act, 1988", to define what constitutes the acts of corruption. Though JLP has couple more in addition.
Per PCA, 1988, these constitutes the acts of corruption:
JLP has these additions:
Ten differences between Jan Lokpal Bill and Govt Bill!
IBNLive has published an article by MR Madhavan 0f PRS Legislative Research listing the differences between the 2 versions of the Lok Pal Bill. He broadly classifies the differences into 10 categories and lists the differences.
A very good read to understand the strengths and weaknesses of both the bills.
For more Read Here
Courtesy - IBNLive
Re: Right and Left Wing!
Ramesh.
Sub text in Nadan Nilekani's interview !
After going thru that interview, one would like to agree with What Nandan Nilekani is saying. Fact of the matter is the Lok pals, CAGs are all at work after the fact. They come into picture after the acts of omissions or commissions has been committed. Which is also very important to ensure that our governance is in checked on spending?
One important take away for me from that interview is the importance of prevention. I fully agree with Nadan's view that in order to fight corruption, we also need to streamline the public delivery systems along with enacting anti-corruption laws like Lokpal/Lok Aykta and enforcements. Now with availability of technologies this task is much easier compare to few years back. Needless to say it requires multi-prong strategy.
Take the example of BMTC. Imagine the rate of pilferage coming down in ticketing using the smart card or any other technology to facilitate electronic payment for tickets in buses. I am sure there are hundreds of opportunities to reduce the corruption in daily life on common man.
Courtesy - IBNLive - Interview with Nadan Nilekani
Flip-Flop or confusion?
Ramesh,
On daily basis we hear about different stand from IAC team. You had asserted in your post that
But today's headlines says exactly opposite to that
More explosive fodder is found here:
Re: Flip-Flop or confusion?
UID - No parliamentary approval yet, so no legal backing.
http://business.in.com/printcontent/21272. Why doesn't he wait till it is approved by Parliament? ( In the same context, watch the movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120660/). Was a lack of UID the reason for former telecom minister to plunder national resources? Was it the reason real estate companies having no experience in Telecom getting licenses & spectrum following arbitrary procedures? No, none, it was absolute absence of fear of law. I don't think another UID is required to stop corruption at the higher levels, but a strong law and implmentation arm will definitely do it.
The pilferages in public delivery system was happening all through last 64 years, every one knew it. What was preventing the goverment of the day in taking systemic reforms to prevent it? They are still in search of MAGIC WAND to stop corruption & inflation, which affects a large part of the population. They are elected to bring in right policies at right time, to bring in new legislations to reflect the changes happening around, not to search for a non-existing MAGIC WAND.
Flip flop or confusion - Possible in an unorganized fight against organized state machinery.
The movement is against those in power, infact against those blinded by power. There were reports alleging 2 ministers in the joint drafting committee leaking reports in private to the coterie journalist during the initial phase. I had mentioned earlier too about the Koramangala demolitions and how the people who filed the PIL was targeted both by the encroachers and the agencies who were supposed to take action against them.
Isn't this flip-flop?
The government initially did not accept the joind draft committee, but was later forced to accept it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Indian_anti-corruption_movement
None from the opposition in the committee. Where was our ministers who shout from roof top about democratic priniciples at that time? Don't they know that opposition members too have certain rights & obligation in a democratic setup? They just wanted a convenient passage to come out of the crisis and thought the agitation will fizzle out and will face its natural death.
Pranab wanted PM under the ambit of Lokpal in 2001, Moily wanted the same in 2011. What has changed drastically in last few months for their U-turn?
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-06-14/india/29656165_1_lokpal-bill-pranab-mukherjee-prime-minister
Unelected dictators greatest threat: Congress
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-06-14/news/29656924_1_hazare-camp-manish-tewari-congress-spokesperson.
As if the current PM has contested an election!!!!!! If the govt. feel so and their demands are out of place, what does prevent them from sending them all to jail? They fear, they have some thing to fear, the public support this movement has.
There is a vaccum of political leadership who can sense the public mood, who ever left is so much disconnected from the sentiments of the public who elected them in first place. The younger generation is not complacent as it was earlier. Post liberalisation generation demands quick answers and solutions, they found a platform and a leadership that filled the political vaccum. They may not be 100 % right, but the general mood of the public is that they are much better than the political leadership who were circling with 10 half-hearted attempts in bringing the Lokpal. Lack of majority in both houses were pointed out by some one, but that never stopped them bringing in legislations what they thought were convenient to them.
I repeat, some one filled in the political vaccum, luckily they don't have baggages to carry and hide!
@ramesh - Answers to your questions.
Ramesh,
Answers to all your questions and mine are answered in the Karna Thapar's interview Arvind Kejriwal and Shanthi Bhushan?
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/pass-bill-by-aug-30-time-for-talks-over-team-anna/177203-3.html
-Syed
Enough is enough
Syed,
You may continue to argue along the lines that democratic processes have been subverted, etc., but the fact is that govt after govt has been side-stepping the issue with no positive intent to deal with corruption in high places, not to mention the rapid escalation of corruption in recent times.
If not anything, this movement is at least a start to bring about some positive change to tackle it. If such change is again left to parliament, they will naturally do what suits their own interests best. This govt has made it's intentions clear by proposing a bill with staff selections under control of the houses of parliament, similar to CVC, CBI, etc, which will result in nothing but another toothless organization that can't touch any of them.
I am only questioning?
Naveen,
Firts of all good to see you here after a long time. Hope you are doing well.
I am not holding brief for govt version or arguing against JLP. I am only asking some pertinent questions about the making of law.
There are many issues that encompasses this debate of corruption? one thing everybody agree is need to fight corruption. So no disagreements on objective. Questions are about means to achieve that objective.
Among the means, there are many aspects to it. One need for new law, its contents, legislating this law and enforcements.
One each one of these many people have many different opinions. Many makes sense many don't. Some even question the need for a new law?
I have not even once said one version is better than the other. After reading through govt version, JLP and Aruna Roy's versions, I am still not convinced on any one of them. My take is only a informed discussion would produce a better version? Question is how do we accomplished this? Discussion in IAC/NCPRI offices, Public Debates, TV Studios, Referendums, Fresh Elections or same old Parliament way? May be all of the above.
One question I have asked for which I am yet to get an answer, should the JLP be passed as law in a process that is different from the traditional one. If yes, then from now on should all the new bills be legislated the same way? Consequences of that change?
I agree with you on the lethargy and in-sensitiveness of govt after govt to allow the corruption to reach this level. I do see a real churning out of this movement and anger. I am looking forward to the upcoming elections in many states to gauge the effect of this anger, this new aspirations, sense of belonging for the youth etc? I sincerely hope the 2014 LS election be a new chapter in India's democracy journey.
But my confidence in results from a new law fades away when I try to analyze the state of corruption even after the existence of LokAyukta and a strong LokAyukta in Karnataka like Jutice Hegde. Seems nothing has changed on the ground?
Have we measured this
Have we measured this corruption? If Govt can agree on a measure & commit to an outcome of reducing lets say from 90% to 30% in 5 years then we shouldnt really care how it gets done. But in cases where the outcome is subjective the only way to get the desired outcome is to tighten on the methods to achieve it. Hence the netipicking on the bill itself.
Points to ponder over
I think it has amply been demonstrated & made clear that the functioning of all institutions that investigate crime /corruption have always been subject to massive interference & manipulation by the ruling parties. Informed discussions need to be made by involving much larger sections of civil society than ever before (perhaps by holding referendums), & not just between so-called "eminenet" persons chosen by parliament & within the precincts of the ruling parliament houses or based on recommendations from them which can be conveniently cast aside if it doesn't suit their taste.
We have seen what traditional methods for passing bills has resulted in when bills are related to issues dealing with crime or corruption by MPs /ministers & bureaucrats. For those bills that directly deal with such issues such as the Lokpal bill, there obviously has been a pressing need to find another way for the last 50 years - maybe this movement will result in some positive change.
I think this movement has gained massive support in Bangalore primarily because of the exposure of large-scale corruption through the efforts of Santosh Hegde & Karnataka lokayukta. Elsewhere too, people are fed up of corruption in the functioning of state & central govts, escalation of corrupt practices & misuse of public money for private benefits.
While you guys debate ...
... have edited the post to embed latest versions of IAC and Government drafts of Lokpal Bill.
Kannada version & translation?
Can someone volunteer for a kannada translation? Or know a reliable translator. Lets put up a kannada version of both the drafts, don't see any yet.
Re:But my confidence in results from a new law
But my confidence in results from a new law fades away when I try to analyze the state of corruption even after the existence of LokAyukta and a strong LokAyukta in Karnataka like Jutice Hegde. Seems nothing has changed on the ground?
Why is it that not effective?
suo motu powers against netas and requirement for sanction for prosecution are needed to fully strengthen the institutions
JD(S) leader M C Nanaiah, advocating more powers to the Lokayukta, said that the Karnataka Act with all its deficiencies is still the best. Former chief minister Ramakrishna Hegde, who pioneered the legislation in 1984, had brought the ministers including the CM under its purview. But a year later, the provision was dropped and has not been restored since then, he pointed out.
Read more at
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-04-08/india/29396540_1_suo-motu-powers-lokayukta-institution-karnataka-lokayukta-act
The Goverment's version of Lokpal is at best another advisory body to park their geriatric netas who have failed in previous elections, to help bureaucrats with good retirment plans who had helped them while in service, to provide return of investmsents for judges in return for the exceptional "scratch your back" service they did while in service.
Investigating and prosecution powers without sanctions from the then political bosses is another contentious issue the govt. has with JLP. Some one argued that JLP is draconian, so be it, atleast it can not be used against 99% of the popluation who are not in "Self Service aka public service", the remaining 1 % is any way good in finding myriads of way to get out of legal tangles. At the same time, there are more draconian laws like POTA, AFPSA which can be used against me, you and more than 99% of the public. They just showed their intent by imposing 144 in and around Delhi last week.
I'm saying when a very
I'm saying when a very serious Parliamentary body called the standing committee has taken this law for consideration, why are we not working through that system?
The Parlimentary standing committee consists of Laloo Prasad Yadav & Amar SIngh, & we have great hopes of anticorruption related stuff from them? 2 lakhs or 2 crores, Team Anna doesnt have the habit of digging into their past & putting it out for arguments.
Full list
@IDS, agreed present not good, what is the alternate way?
IDS,
Agreed that the current systems and process didn't deliver in most cases (even though I feel it has in many cases), what is the new process that you think will deliver? From raising the issue to getting a law passed. How, who and where?
Kannada Translation!
SB,
I have send you an email with contact information for the Kannada Translation.
-Syed
what is the new process that
what is the new process that you think will deliver?
The govt should take the suggestion offered by the IAC team, use the JanLokPalBill as the start point & amend it appropriately with the help of a more broad based Ad-Hoc committee (not this Laloo/Amar standing committee) to arrive at the appropriate bill including all other measures taken to make the overall system strong enough to fight corruption. Methods to measure & report corruption should be a part of this. If results not measured & reported then this is another useless organization.
I will go on fast if they dont pass my measure & report strategy :)
This is another manifestation
This is another manifestation of Anna and his team of "My way or highway" attitude. This clearly shows how this campaign is trying to shut the other voices.
This is very true generalization of the activist type. Maybe thats what keeps them going personally & keeps the rest of people out from working with them. It is also born out of compulsion for them because a lot of causes they take up are impractical when rationalized to current practices & need massive changes in behaviours to adopt.
Ad-Hoc committee!
IDS,
This suggestion of adhoc approach to non-govt version to be the basis of a bill legislation, to me is flawed one even if this is only for this situation. Looking beyond JLP, what is the system for non-govt version of the bills to be basis of legislation?
Let me give you a scenario. There is a proposal for a bill on Communal violence and draft is ready. BTW, this draft is written by the NAC. Already there are voices against it. There is only one voice which is for the bill, by the people, communities who had been the most effected.
For arguments sake let us consider each one them to be a non-govt versions of the bill. Most vocal in this respect is from BJP and their sister organizations. If I apply the same formula, it is the BJP version that should be taken up in the parliament rather than govt version or the lone voice of the actual sufferers. Since BJP and their supporters can mobilize crowds at least equal to Ramlila size ( already seen in 90s), am sure they will get the right to shut the other voices.
In my above description I am not at all suggesting opposition from BJP is bad or anything. They have every right to oppose this and any other formulations. I am just commenting on methodology to deal with opposing view to govt views and bills.
May be JLP churning would provide that answer.
Last but not least, let me know the venue of your fast, I will join you, even if Idon't agree with you. :)
-Syed
Should PM be under lokpal
I found this discussion on whether PM should be under the ambit of Lokpal. As it stands now, the govt version of lokpal bill has the PM excluded while in office. Once the person demits office, his/her conduct can be reviewed by the lokpal and punished. In the Jan Lokpal version, the PM is also under the jurisdiction of lokpal.
Here is the link to a conclusion that was reached through a round table on Lokpal organized in New Delhi in April 2011. Please read. The argument here too seems to be that the PM should be excluded and that PM should be policed by the legislature alone. There is also a point made there that the CM in a state could be under the jurisdiction of the Lokpal ?!!
I am still not fully convinced if this resolves the issue. The PM often keeps many departments/portfolios under his/her control. In such a case, the minister in charge of a certain ministry comes out of the jurisdiction of the lokpal because that person is also the prime minister. How to sort that out? Could arguments be made that a certain file went to the PMO and therefore that is out of the jurisdiction of the Lokpal? Even if the PM is kept out of the ambit of the lokpal, there needs to be clear definition on the powers of the lok pal with respect to the PMO.
I am not sure how much of the
I am not sure how much of the corruption is with the PM, lots of politicians at lower levels who make all the money both at state & center. Infrastructure contracts are the biggest money spinner. Beyond this PM issue what are the other 9 JLP issues that govt version does not include?
let me know the venue of
let me know the venue of your fast, I will join you, even if Idon't agree with you. :)
I cant even skip lunch I will get a migraine :) but what are the 10 services which can form a basket for measuring corruption? If citizen services can be used to measure retail corruption how do we track corruption on contracts & govt allocations etc.?
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10 differences
Please see article by MR Madhavan of PRS LEgislative research here on the ten differences. Link
toothless? insufficient?
@sanjayv thanks for the link, the below point which has been left out of the Govt LPB is very important and shows seriousness of the bill to tackle retail corruption
Clearly the govt is ignoring important committments to servicing the citizen diluting the whole effort.
Regarding the seventh & eighth points, the govt needs to move CBI completely into JLP. Its trying to keep this completely politically manipulated "investigation" arm will lay to waste all efforts of creation of the JLP. Shows very clearly politicians are afraid of being naked with no protection for their misdeeds or carry out revenge campaigns when they need and hide the misdeeds of their friends.
fifth point again shows how used to control the politicians are. On what basis will the president know the LP needs to be removed? It has to be from his "advisors" Isnt it better for courts to first investigate on a complaint from the same "advisors" or anybody else & find him guilty before coming to the president for action? What if after the president recommends removal, the SC finds the LP fit to serve? Wont the president have egg on the face?
Here is another comparison matrix from the NCPRI team on the bills, surprisingly in the last but one row regarding the investigative & prosecution wing, the CBI part is not addressed in this comparision preferring to show they are all in sync on this point
Grievances, Judiciary, Whistleblower in separate bills!
Some times even these comparisons are muddle with biases and lopsided views. If reports to be believed, there are attempts from govt to bring in separate bills on Judiciary, Grievances and Whistle-blower.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/185563/law-keep-tab-lower-rung.html
Would that be better option than all in one? or simply in anti-govt mood, just accept whatever JLP offers?
one vs many
If reports to be believed, there are attempts from govt to bring in separate bills on Judiciary, Grievances and Whistle-blower. Would that be better option than all in one?
NCPRI recommendations are the basis of this move, nobody has a good list of positives & negatives of either of the moves. If you go by ICAC precendent keep everything in one place would make sense, but this is an amateurish guess by me. I will take the advise of the people in the kno on this. I see nothing wrong in agreeing to IAC point on this unless proven otherwise. Right now though on the streets its my-daddy-strongest
Many people live so far from
Many people live so far from Delhi, so the central government has not had to face many agitations, but that is not the case with the states which have many rallies in their capital which is influencing decision making.
Real democracies have referendum. Anna Hazare's movement is like referendum. Although referendum is very central in demoracy, we have not been allowed to participate in that saying people do not have the capacity to understand law making etc. Many important issues have been decided by referendum like the membership of European Union, abolition of apartheid etc.
this is for real!
Related comments from friends:
Mr N: I went to the Ramlila maidan this morning. The comment here describes the scene exactly. The fervour of the supporters, selfless service by many volunteers ( I drank a hot cup of coffee free!). The respect and adulation for AH had to be seen to be believed. I saw vignettes of all the people that are described below-the school teacher, the large family from Ludhiana (a big gang of sardars) old, young and people from all walks of life. Anyone who thinks that this is a movement of the pampered middle-class can only be an armchair intellectual who has not visited the site of the action. I may have been there on a historic occassion!
Ms PR: Whether we are over ANNAlyzing or not, the fact remains that this movement is being fueled by the heart. The mind only follows. Either I get that or I don't. Difficult to argue with an angrily beating heart. And memories of cowardice. The editorials, the conversations. Nothing comes close to the one decisive thump that says "Bas, bahut ho gaya".
While I discuss, I cogitate, I criticize and I wonder what damage the A Team could potentially do to the constitution, where was I all these years when crores drained out of the system by creamily smiling Fat Cats looted us and robbed the poor in a so called bloodless crime? Impotent, seething and cowed, too small to stand up alone. Whatever the A Team has done and whatever damage they might do, I will stand on my desk and salute this man and this time for giving us the courage and platform to speak. Even though it was always there.
O Captain, My Captain
And relevant excerpts from an article by Rama Bijapurkar in Business Standard (full text accessible here):
The differences in quality between the government and private are hard to ignore and even as the quality and cleanliness of our privately-run public spaces are improving, the quality of our government-run public spaces is deteriorating. Even as the rights and services we get as consumers are improving, our rights as citizens are getting worse. “Pay a bribe and let’s talk” is the dominant theme in the latter case. Earlier, we did not know that anything better was possible in India. We were resigned to our fate. Now we do know that it is possible, because we see it and experience it. This, then, increases our rage against the government. High-decibel media exposés of government corruption adds to it — it seems to say our money could have worked much harder for us had it been used better. Saying I will stand on principle and not pay a bribe and not get my work done, give up earning potential for principle, is not an option. The middle class sees its power not in terms of the ballot box – in fact, as Sitapati suggests, it hates all things political – but in terms of noise and pressure and blackmail power with the media as its ally. It says I pay the piper so I need to call the tune because you aren’t in tune with the rest of my world.
The more we privatise and show ourselves what can be done, the more we expect “paisa vasool” from our government services.
Interesting conversation
I had an interesting conversation with a friend who lives around Delhi. His (well off) father goes to the Ramlila maidan every day with two car loads of food / fruits for the people there. His driver was narrating a story of an RTO official who got beaten up for demanding a bribe couple of days back (how true, I do not know). It is great to see some public anger, finally! Today, in Bangalore, on the outer ring road there were hundreds of people standing outisde their companies and forming a human chain. If you have been near the ORR between Marathalli and Sarjapur in the recent past, with the construction and the swirling dust, which intensifies after a rain and dry out cycle, this is not a comfortable experience at all. yet people were standing there for hours. The anger is real and it is coming spilling out.
I hope it is contained and also hope that it sustains. This reducing corruption business is a long battle and any sort of lok pal bill is only one step. Many fundamental reforms and their execution remain.
lokpal draft
I just can not understand how the central government can now say that a broader consenses is required to be taken to table the janlokpal draft for considering for discussion in Parlaiment. Have they taken such broad consenses while preparing thier lokpal bill draft to claim democratic? The very draft of govt. is not acceptable to many parties in Loksabha. Even if they take the broader consenses for the Janlokpal draft and find 85% are in favour of it while 15% are not in favour of it, how should it be concluded - whether the people by and large are demanding the Janlokpal or it should be ignored because 15% are not acceptable? The central govt. is not at all sincere and appear like protecting the gangs of corrupt people and corrupt govt. employees; after all the corruption only dwells with govt. The central govt. should better know that the Parlaiment is not above majority of people and the members of parlaiment have not descended from the heavens.
It is frequently stated that the Law should be in simple terms and easily understood by even a less qualified person.That should be the essence.
Understanding Arvind Kejriwal, the insurgent
http://caravanmagazine.in/Story.aspx?Storyid=1050&StoryStyle=FullStory
The following was the comment I added, after reading this account in "Caravan"
Enlightening - energises me more to continue with my participation, even if in a not too significant way
Have seen Loksatta's JP's version of LP?
Yesterday PM mentioned about Loksatta's JP's version of LP in th parliament. Has anybody seen it? Couldn't find it on net?
http://www.fdrindia.org/lokpa
http://www.fdrindia.org/lokpal/index.html
Suo Motu
I read the loksatta versions and suggestions. Seems top tread a middle path, but I am not able to comment on whether sall suggestion make sense.
One other question I had was on this Suo Motu powers business. Can the lokpal investigate corruption on the basis of press reports or other inputs in the absence of a formsl complaint? Justice Hegde used to keep complaining about the lack of this. What is the stand of all these versions on the Suo Motu business.
Former Delhi HC, CJ on Lokpal, JLP!
Justice A P Shah, former chief justice of the Delhi high court, shares his thoughts on the current situation surrounding the Lokpal bill
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-lokpal-bill-special-you-cannot-put-a-gun-on-govt-head-to-pass-a-law/20110826.htm
Courtesy - www.rediif.com
Yeah - let us continue the status quo
Let us continue for another century or so hoping against hope that some day wisdom will rein our elected representatives to implement existing laws effectively or bring new legislations to curb the corruption.
Let corrupt amass wealth in obscenely large amounts, they have lost count of the amount of money amassed long ago, now a days in competetion to add more zeros to the amount, number of zeros is the only count and idea they have about the money.
Threat to democracy - what a farce? Who has taken down the credibility of the institutions? The elected member themselves!!!! No one else. When people ask for accountability for their actions they feel threatented! When the vaccum created by political leaders is filled by some one, they feel threatened.
Did they even have a decent debate in parliament at a time when the whole nation and people around the world is keenly listening on? Were they able to sense the seriousness of the issue other than shouting about the threat? The threat if any is within not from outside. How can they claim credibility and supremacy? Amar Singh & Lalu in a standing committee discussing the legislation against corruption. Ahhh... there are a couple of more vacancies that can be filled by Kalmadi, A Raja & Kanimozhi.
Hail the democratic institutions as they exist now and hail the status quo - at least it suits few!!!!!
Our elected representatives disappointed the nation
They could not even hold a voting after battling about the people aspirations for a whole day!!! Had some wonderful speeches, for eg: Varun G. Way above the Yuvaraj's game changing idea read like Doordarshan news, most probably written by A Patel. Sister G was in gallery as if she is about to watch her kids performance in nursery school, grow up babies you are far more aged to get admitted to a nuresery schoo.
PS: A spoof website for IAC - provides interesting reading throuh very few pages. Hilarious http://india-for-corruption.page.tl/Home.htm
Pardon me for the rants.
Call for changing the system by being part of the system
Some interesting statistics.
Close to 30% of Loksabha MPs have criminal back ground.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_general_election,_2009#MPs_with_pending_criminal_charges
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2011/01/is_india_sliding_into_a.html
Kiran Bedi and Arvind Kejrival were part of the government under the executive and for sure the reform processes started by Bedi in her various capacities are in public domain. They know the system far better than most us.
following the moral compass
Corruption come of various forms. The taking of bribes that we are fighting against is just one. Examples of other forms are people riding their two-wheelers on the footpath I was walking on, others honking impatiently behind me as I limped along, throwing paper on the ground at Freedom Park.
All these are caused by the thinking that I, ME and MINE are paramount, and that rules can be bent or broken to ensure this. When our moral compass says 'This is not right', the vast majority of us whack it on its head and tell it to shut up.
Anna Hazare follows his moral compass.
For the full text of the article by Das (CyBaNa fame), click here.
Definitely worth a read and pondering over.
LokPal no 1
We are in an intellectual cul-de-sac. Change requires emotion, but emotion without direction is sterile. Anna Hazare estimates that if we had a Jan Lokpal and Jan Lokayuktas, 60 per cent of corruption from national life could be eliminated.
Maybe so! But if we have a PM who enforces honesty, 60 per cent of corruption in national life would not arise in the first place! Where do you get the best bang for the buck? It is for the citizens to apply single minded pressure on whoever may be the PM. If we drop the bar for the PM, we wound our country.
For the full text of the article by Mr Sanjeev Aga in the Daily Mail, click here.
Says a lot.