How much will you pay for parking your motorized private vehicle in Bengaluru?

Appx costs, taking high end transport options for PT vs private. Only because we are assuming that parking fee hike is aimed at car users.

PT option

• Avg public transport cost of going to CBD from Outer Ring = Rs 30 (Vajra fare).
• Do x 2 for return = Rs 60

Private option

• Car, 20 Kms Petrol = 70 Rs (appx)
• 2 hour parking = Rs 40, so total = Rs 110.

PT looks cheaper (Rs 60 vs 70). Adding for parking, the gap increases (Rs 60 vs Rs 110). Right? Now, take hidden costs for PT, two big ones. (leave the inconvenience out)

• Auto till bus stand = Rs 25-40 depending on auto raja. x 2 for round trip! So avg Rs 60
• Time "wastage" (due to auto/bus wait/slow bus) for using PT (bus) = 40 minutes (20 minutes each way). Put a number to your time? Rs 60 @ Rs 100/hr. Rs 120 @ 200/hr, and so on :)

Now, you see how PT "costs" more than private transport !! So, net net:

• Depending on the value of your time, even if PT becomes 3 times as cheap, it would still not make the cut.
• How much you charge for parking at CBD, and entering CBD, decides what "segment" of commuters you will be "pushing" or "attracting" to PT.

Summary?

• Keep PT as sad as it is today, and auto rajas moody and grumpy ==> parking charges in CBD would be a good business.
• Improve PT, fix auto rajas or last mile ==> parking charges in CBD would be welfare, good for PT.

So let us ask our city planners, do they see parking as business, or welfare? Love money, or love PT?

inconvenience is a far more effective disincentive than fees and fines

Creating inconveniences has only resulted in haphazard parking in no-parking zones on many street sides since enforcement has gone way beyond our traffic cops' capacities !

People will still be reluctant to use PTs, even if there are better PT options - higher costs are the only way to restrain traffic. If parking is made available at TTMCs & at peripheral stations at subsidised rates rather than restricting such parking availability, I think it can help greatly since last mile options get taken care of. This will also help reduce dependence on autos & further lessen road traffic. In CBDs, parking availability can be restricted to further assist the effort, but some parking must always be provided (at very high costs).

Hi Anirudhmb - you have raised many pertinent questions.....

1. why should bbmp be denied of revenue? why should parking management be awarded third party contractors through rigged auctions? parking revenue is definitely worth a whole lot more than what BBMP gets through payments from contractors. why not directly employ persons directly? there are thousands people who are in dire need of minimum wages more than contractors acting as fronts for politicians bidding for parking tenders.

The challenge for govt has been to find ways to get things to work as best possible with regard to enforcing collection of charges for parking. Left to BBMP appointed parking attendants, the scale of inefficiency & corruption is bound to be on the high side & a possible solution was to auction off roads & areas to interested parties for certain periods. This worked well initially, but has become difficult now with powerful vested interests undermining efforts. I doubt if collection will improve if this were handed over to unemployed youths since they will find ways to siphon off money & return much lesser than what auctions can bring in (provided of course that smooth ways can be found to restore the auctioning process).

2. the terms of parking as contained on tickets used to read, BBMP is not responsible for theft/loss/damage to vehicle. when i pay a fee, i expect 360 degree service. BBMP ought take insurance to cover such claims when a vehicle is parked in their designated parking lot.

Generally, parking fee is only for using the space & not for security - most parking tickets make this clear almost all over the world. Vehicle insurance (taken by vehicle owner) should take care of losses by theft, etc.

3. dishonest attendents manning the lots. even today, at  the Complex in Jayanagar 4th Block, the attendents carrying portable ticket printing machines, do not issue a receipt in the first place. all motorists are in a hurry to leave, so they pay without collecting any receipt. the revenue is there by under reported. morever only when inisisted upon, a receipt, the time that is punched in is false.

I think we users are also responsible for this. If we insist on tickets & ensure time /charges are correct, things will work out fine, but most do not & try to avoid or minimize payment - this is why there is so much corruption at every level, but generally, we blame "authorities" for all ills.

4. how about having equitable gender distribution in attendents employed and addressing their needs like social security, work wear, means to protect themselves from weather with a raincoat or umbrella , pollution masks and a torchlight it times of power failure? if shopping malls can do it, so can BBMP. when petrol bunks are allotted in whatever quotas to families in need. when low cost housing projects are implemented, why not parking contracts be allotted on similar basis?

This is a great suggestion - wonder how we can make this work !

5. traffic police do not actively work in sync with BBMP. we citizens, have on innumerable times violate the law by parking in restricted areas. the parking zones have been demarcated without addressing the concerns of the stakeholders at the grass root level.

Currently, with insufficient public transport & the extensive use of private vehicles, co-ordination & enforcement have gone haywire. The only way this can be tackled is by finding ways to reduce the preference of individuals to use private vehicles.

6. why is this poll limited to cars ( i hope SUVs are included) ? what about bicycles, motorcycles, Heavy Commercial Vehicles? we need a policy on parking in Urban Areas. Provide free bicycle parking at all places - commercial,government,educational establishment as policy to encourage alternative means of transport postively impacting the environment. also subsidized parking for electric/hybrid vehicles

Great! I wish people use bicycles more extensively, but traffic conditions make bicycle use unsafe, as of now. Parking must be charged for all types of vehicles based on the space they occupy whilst subsidizing environment-friendly vehicles.

7. what about an one-time fee imposed on every vehicle registered in the city of Bangalore? if parking fee is indeed charged, then RTO ought to do away with the Road Tax.

Road tax is for road maintenance /development & does not include parking fees. One time charges do not work - vehicle users must be charged repeatedly for parking on each occasion. Annual road tax works better as it is recurring & hurts pockets year after year, thus discouraging vehicle ownership.

i will defintely pay parking fee no matter how much it is fixed, knowing that it is not serving a businessman's need but is actually sustaining a family directly. (see point 4). i am pretty positve the car owning citizens will be sold to the idea of the difference they make when their parking fee goes directly to the one's in need. we need civic governence with a social conscience.

Unfortunately, in practice, things do not work so well. Most people do not care about social responsibilities & imagine that they have a right to park anywhere once road taxes have been paid. Some even complain about the lack of availability of parking space for the taxes they have paid. Efforts are needed to instill these values into the conscience of individuals.

In some places they have signs saying (1,3,5,7...) on one side of the road and (2,4,6,8....) on the other. Of course this has very little effect - I think the traffic police have an over exaggerated idea of the Mathematical abilities of Bangalore drivers. In any case they dont enfore anything so any rule has no meaning.

I suppose they should introduce the notion of permit parking - only allow residents of the neighborhood to park freely in that neighborhood. But all this involves enforcement. I think just simply enforcing the current rules will greatly improve the parking and driving situation all over Bangalore - there is no need to introduce new ones at the moment.

Also, some thought should be given to where they place no parking signs. For example - on 15th Cross Malleswaram, near 11th Main parking is not allowed on one side ( technically - again, never enforced ). There is no reason to do that as there is ample space and not much traffic. On the other hand, at the other end of the same road - at Margosa and 15th Cross there is always a lot of traffic. However, between Margosa and 4th Main is the only stretch of 15th Cross where they permit parking ! Of course this adds to the mess at that junction. Added to this a new Girias has opened up.

I agree with Vasant that on most streets parking should be on only one side - though the sides will have to be alternated. But all this boils down to one thing - enforcement.

Ramesh

IDS, arguements can go on. Your example cities may still be using public money to provide parking. But before going into car and PT and all that, if you make provision for parking in the bye-laws, there is a need to go enforce that first. Or else, you are encouraging more and more people to run party halls in basements, park on pavements, and lay down dinner tables on front setbacks while you and me put our tax money towards parking spaces.

There would be exceptions, but as a rule, at least in commercial zones, space for parking must come from those who directly benefit from it. I want space for driving, walking and cycling first.

 To reduce the car usage, even companies should start charging for car parking. This will discourage car usage for offices too. All the companies in SEZ areas  follow SEZ guidelines and SEZ guideline should include this. Car parking charge should be equivalent to a luxury bus fare. Most of the companies also would have provided shuttles and the monthly shuttle charges should be less than the car parking charges over the entire month. 

PT can never get good enough, because, people always prefer personal vehicles and point to point drop. No matter what you do, PT will never 'be there'.

This is generally true worldwide, & can be said with even more emphasis in India because PT systems are generally poor & political commitment to reverse this trend is almost non-existent due to fear of reactions by public & media, even as parties compete with one another to claim credit for widening roads or for building elevated expressways.

We can, however get PT to be "better than" or "preferable to" private transport by enhancing the performance of PT as also by discouraging use of cars. Copenhagen is the leader in this trend with other Scandinavian countries followed by Singapore. Preference for PT with much lower costs & awareness about harmful environmental effects has helped greatly as have enhanced taxes on cars, expensive parking & congestion pricing.

Indian cities have a long way to go - in fact, no start has been made as yet, & the right place to start is by charging heavy road tolls & parking fees, but will we ever "get there" ?

Spoke to some people at work on this interesting issue. When we read, we need to also keep in mind that most of them are basing their opinions on information through regular channels- newspaper, TV etc. At some places, i am also stating verbatim to bring the essence of what was said. Collating here only comments on why someone will not pay from what some said:

Mr. A: I will not pay anything- because that is my way of rebelling against the bad planning of our cities. I am frustrated because of our planning competency- metro is grossly overrated for its capability to solve any traffic, bus stops are located and buses stop right around corners even of major roads (like Silkboard) - a perfect recipe for jams, traffic cops being mute spectators when buses turn into a one way road in the wrong direction (turning at hosur road leading to shantinagar and hockey stadium), etc. etc. “It’s really frustrating to know part of my slogging goes as taxes to pay for such nincompoops whose absence will prove better than their interference.”

Mr. B: I will not pay anything- because the tickets clearly say "BBMP is not responsible for the safety of your vehicle". Imagine if i gave my baggage at the railway cloak room and when i return the guy there says my luggage is not there anymore or it is open and things are missing. I can do nothing about it because my ticket says they are not responsible for the luggage. "Hell, don’t take my bag if you going to not return it or use your cloak room to conveniently rob me with legal immunity".

Mr. C: I will not pay anything- because i believe my tax money is to be used for the city. First roads were exempt- so i pay road tax, now is somebody going to say parking is exempt? Anyway, the buildings that are being constructed should provide for parking as per the bye-laws, should it not? Why should i get penalized if the bye-laws are faulty (not enough parking is made mandatory) or if the implementation of the bye-laws is faulty?

Mr. D- I will not pay anything- Why should i pay anything just because a commercial complex or a mall does not provide enough parking? "In some cases, like in the forum mall, the malls even try finding extra parking space after having used more than 25% of their land for parking. That’s because that’s still profitable for them". So what about others? When i visit someone’s office for a meeting, am i to take a bus lugging my laptop causing my shirt to stink after walking in warm weather? The office complex is supposed to provide parking for visitor. Everybody’s business runs on other people and meeting them. Why should i give trouble to people who visit me or why should i take trouble visiting someone? Change the parking requirement in buildings.

Also, with regard to the congestion, the general consensus seems to be- when anyone drives, they know what they are getting into every time. In spite of that, they decide to drive every time. Some of us might want to make this a big deal, but the truth is that the majority is still driving and causing congestion. That’s how important personal transport is to people. It’s not going to ever change. The solution seems to lie only in proper planning and implementation, there are no short cuts.

Footnote: Maybe the pollution takes a back seat in people's minds because that doesn’t seem to cause trouble immediately. Kind of like a smokers attitude to smoking. One knows it harms them and they want to give up, but what is just one more gonna do? Anyways, that is the truth. But that is not directly relevant to this topic- the group also felt the proper and the right approach is gunning for better cars with less pollution. Needless to say, this group was not the one to appreciate Al Gore approach to things.

Hi IDS- I understand what you say and I agree that some tight-grip measures will do good. Yes, by 2015, as you say, if the traffic grows to 90 lakh vehicles, and I believe, since all of us will constantly sub-consciously evaluate our lives every day, I guess, somewhere around 2013 people might think twice before taking their car out. Also, after a certain growth, the congestion curve will tend to lessen its slope or flatten out just because there are no roads to run those cars, unless somehow new roads materialize- but that is just what will happen. New roads will materialize. Tell you how.

Also we need to remember that this growth in population will not and cannot happen within any high-density population areas. Any population growth will happen around the fringes and in a radiating pattern, unless conscious decisions of how to manage the city growth is made. Some cities work with satellite towns. Growth along 3 main corridors- Whitefield, hosur road and Bellary road will be very noticeable and many kilometers of roads will be added to the system. But noticeably, the width of roads along CBDs will not change (desperate measures like troubling, badly planned flyovers, magic boxes etc. will get added,) and thus force these corridors to branch off and become sustainable systems- sort of like mini CBDs. Now the corridors between these mini CBDs will choke because of their widths and lack of planning foresight. This is already visible- Koramangala, Varthur junction, Sarjapur. A city normally grows this way- urban studies and planning principles help in understanding this phenomenon well. Yes, corridors between major cities clog up because of too big cities (like there was a jam in china some days back which lasted for 10 days and a small transit township formed there), but inside the cities, that does not happen in the same proportion, even if left to spontaneous non-managed growth (which is pretty much the case here). So yes, the situation will become very bad especially in the main transit corridors, but just cannot become bad enough. Nobody is going to 'stay at home' or even use public transport because it just will not come to that. People will simply use the PRR between these hubs and load the PRR until that becomes bad and another RR happens.

It is also hard to believe that congestion charges and paid parking will make a difference to traffic issues. They might counter the effects of introduction of very affordable cars. Do we have anything to suggest that traffic in our roads has grown more due to making the parking free some time back? Most people who own cars will just pay up the charges and these charges will just become a part of owning the car. Just like another price rise. Personal comfort is a very powerful factor, which will be hard to counter. Even small car users will, imo, tends to just pay it, and move on. All of us know the history of price rise in either owning a car or using it- car prices, fuel prices and all kinds of other maintenance costs have been rising. But these seem to have hardly affected the car sales growth.

Also IDS, you state that "This has nothing to do with pollution….". That is how you see it. Someone else might want to see parking charges as a tool to curb private vehicle usage and thus pollution. That footnote was meant for those.

Also, the 'tooth abscess' that you mention- there do exist those people who are so frustrated that they want to kick the backside of the system and yes, also take the pain of doing so in return. By the people, for the people. Well, as far as visualization goes, we want it or not, these are the people one will have to deal with trying to make any change.

Hi Pranav- yes, me the same. :) And yes, we had this FGD even before I saw this topic here, in a different context, since our work draws our interest to many urban design and planning issues. With regard to any kind of lobbying, inwards or outwards, we believe people come first before any organization/ government body and not the other way. Yes, participative governance is important and that is the way to solve issues, but only when these issues are looked at holistically. Also, it should not become a bad habit that 'parcitipation' is used as an escape route for all lack of competency in planning. People need not take the brunt everytime. One should also talk about what led to this situation and address those issues as well, without which we have little hope for any success in implementation. Are we talking about punishing people and amending the system? Yes, both- long shot, but there are no short cuts. Being nihilistic?-no-just pragmatic. Guess people who dont want to pay for parking come from here.

My name is Narayanamurthy. I live in Bangalore. I used to take buses to go to and come from my office at Koramangala to Domlur.

It was really warm during summers and I had to lug around some drawing sheets and a laptop.

It was so frustrating to wait for 201 to arrive- took anywhere between 15 and 45 mins. And when it did arrive, it stopped anywhere within 50m from where I was standing so some jogging was in order.

Lots of times, 2 buses (both 201) arrive at the same time and hoping the other will stop, both moves on without stopping. So sometimes, i waited for another 15-45 mins.

So the result was that the 3rd bus which did stop had all the crowd of the previous 2 as well and it was nearly impossible to get in.

After I got in, I realized, there is no place to put my face other than in someone else's armpits; there are armpits all around me at very close quarters. Was that just a bad deo or something else? (He is almost always a good construction worker returning after a hard days labor).

I used to wish that by some miracle 201 took the intermediate ring road instead of going through ashok nagar, wood street, MG road, triity junction, ulsoor, indiranagar and then domlur. But that never happened then. So I used to be stuck up with the bad deo (?) for the next 1hr and 15 mins. I remember hoping for some moving space after MG road or even for some more crowd, so I could get pushed to another underarm. I cursed my nose for being so sensitive. God, I used to like the fact that I could smell what was cooking at home for dinner when I just walked in.

Somehow I used to survive the ordeal each day. I remember the day when it was amazingly crowded. But the crowd went off when I reached domlur as it was a last stop. But I guess the bus was late for the arrival and the driver was speeding. The driver just took off after I barely got down and another lady who was just between the last step and the ground fell. Fortunately, she fell away from the bus and the bus was not yet turning into the depot, so she did not go under the wheel. She was bleeding- she had hurt her lips with her teeth. When I was helping her up, both of us could see the conductor looking at us from the back windshield of the speeding bus and hitting his forehead with his palm. He was blaming the lady! I realized it could happen to me as well.

But I couldn’t do anything more- had to rush- it had taken 3 hours to reach domlur from koramangala. Doesn’t it take even lesser time to go to Mysore?

Then I was hungry, but realized with shock my wallet was gone. My 2 credit cards, one debit card, some cash (about 1000 bucks), my duplicates of DL, PAN card.. all gone. I realized i will have to spend about 2 hours calling both SBI and Citibank. Also, had to block the UTI bank (axis bank now) debit card. I hoped by the time I was done, the crook had not bought an used car and zoomed away. I had to also search my bag to see if he picked up anything from my back (my bag was on my shoulder). Nothing was missing from there except a flash drive. Great. IT city crook. I also realized that i would be fool to expect anything to happen even if i went to the cops. Unfortunately, one of the cards was a new one and i didn’t know the card number. By now, my hunger was gone and replaced by more frustration.

My trouser was torn slightly at the pocket where he must have used his blade. Just when i thought i can’t be more frustrated.

I walked towards home- it was almost 8:00PM after a long tired day and suddenly 3 hijras (Eunuchs) approached and started pestering for money. They were almost threatening me with disgusting stuff, lifting their sarees and touching me all over. I never gave to beggars, but would have done so that day. They did not believe i did not have my wallet. So they followed me for 5 mins threatening me. "You will have to go this route everyday"- one said.

That day i vowed i will have my own transport or leave here. Since i didnt want to go to London or Singapore or Copenhagen or someplace like that, i bought a car soon. And i have never looked back.

Now I take 45 minutes for a similar distance in a similar traffic. I never roll down my windows, have the AC on and listen to audiobooks. I just finished ‘superfreakonomics’.

Narayanamurthy will pay anything that is charged. He will never get out of his car. For him, congestion is better than another day like that.. And like IDS says, he will hope that everything he is paying will go into doing the right thing for the city and not into someone else's pocket. But he knows that takes effort from all fronts (like controlling corruption, better planning). That is why he refuses to see this as a separate issue. He knows India ranks 84 in corruption index. He couldnt find anything like "Governing Authorities' Competency Index". And anyways, indices are just quantities. He knows what he goes through.

 @Mr. Narayanmurthy

Your ordeal is very touching sir and seriously a lot needs to be done for development of BMTC-but may I know how long before did the incident you had mentioned took place?

There was a point in your statement regarding that you hoped the bus went via Inner ring road-Till 2001 201(Srinagar to Domlur) was the only frequent bus plying-but things changed drastically after that. Between 2001 and 2002 came the 201G,201J etc where 201G's frequency was increased leaps and bounds and it ran via the IRR. Then along the same route came 201D(Madiwala Masjid to Indiranagar), 201M(Hampi nagar to Jeevanbhimanagar), 201MA(St. Johns to Jeevanbhimanagar), 412(ISRO layout to Hennur), MBS-8(Banashankari to Kalyan nagar), and the more recent buses K-1(St. Johns to Yeshvantapur) and Volvo 201R(Srinagar to C.V.Raman Nagar) which all ran via Inner Ring road crossed the Airport road to stop at the Doopanhalli 100 ft road stop. the advent of these buses has decreased the crowd of 201 and nowadays conductors themselves discourage passengers beyond Ulsoor in the round about route advising them to board the direct routes. 

 As we have discussed it a lot of times earlier lot of bangaloreans face the problem of not knowing the proper bus routes and weakness in the Geographic location of the city due to which they prefer using their Pvt vehicles-BMTC too hasnt done anything to dissuade the private users from not using their vehicles and also gone back on publicity-If BMTC takes it seriously many issues of road congestion would definitely be solved

Eg: There was no information by BMTC regarding which route the Small Circle or the "K" routes took. From Jayanagar to Dairy circle the only options available were 7D , 7G and 340C which ran via Ashoka pillar or 162A which ran via BTM and silk board and both were quite detorous and non-frequent routes. But K-3 follows the route of Jayanagar-Sanjay gandhi-Carmel convent-Bannerghatta road and Dairy circle which is a good option and bus has a good frequency. But despite 6 months of its introduction the crowd on this route has just reached about 55% which shows the poor publicizing by BMTC

1)      Corruption and government apathy & inefficiencies lead to environment not conducive to people choosing public transport over the comfort of their vehicles.

One cannot agree with this since the "environment" for travel by BMTC city buses is probably the best for any city in the country with the addition of many types of services, including the highest number of air-conditioned services. Overcrowding in buses & at bus stops (or dirty street sides that pass off as bus stops) in Mumbai during peak hours is to be seen to be believed, not to mention other cities like Kolkata, Delhi, Hyderabad or Chennai, where the quality of buses is extremely poor.

The sore points with BMTC that need correction are: (a) they continue adding new routes sporadically thereby increasing the total number of routes (I think this is probably not their fault since they have to accept demands from so many quarters - in fact the route system has evolved & become so complicated because of this); (b) their routes are not advertised anywhere; (c) schedules are not maintained (again, probably due to traffic in most cases); & (d) bus number /route information on many buses continue to be only in kannada (again, probably not their fault since they have to operate in a state that has elements which will cause havoc, similar to most other states in the country).

2)      People tend to use their cars even after being aware of the above problems and they are skeptical anything can be done to improve the situation. Unfortunate truth, but truth nevertheless.

There are many who have switched from cars to buses & some have narrated their experiences here too. Unless one tests actual travel periodically, he wouldn't know - the eg., as described by ss87, are routes between Koramangala & Indiranagar, where we have so many routes now when compared with a few years ago.

So, the justification for car use is not convincing enough, though the choice is entirely the individual's - it cannot however, be demanded as a right. Car use, absence of parking costs & congestion pricing are deleterious from both, fairness to bus users & the environment point of view. Lack of sufficient acknowledgement of this by the educated /better off classes is unfortunate, & this is where we need to make the difference.