'GET LOST' - No more

My suggestion would be to keep this seperate as this thread may get submerged in the numerous posts under bus stop design.

DULT is already aware that bus stops need timetables & route information. I recommend reaching out to BMTC to see if they can provide such information & how you plan to keep it updated. It hinges heavily on them providing you accurate data.

Once you have a handle on how much data you have and figured out a way to keep it updated, one can easily approach either BBMP or DULT to make it operational. 

We can get a separate project created (like Bus Day, Namma Railu etc) to collect all posts, files, and track meetings etc. Ritu or Mahesh could be marked as the owner of the "project". what say?

I request you to go through my comment on this blog once again.  I have only commented that GET LOST – NO MORE and the BUS STOP DESIGN Blogs are covering the same topics and it would be better if both the Blogs are clubbed to achieve better results.  

Thank you for your invitation to join one of your projects.  I have not met any of you and I wish to meet some of you. I had several opportunities to meet you all but I missed them all.   My experience with Praja is limited.   However, I am available to Praja at anytime.  

I checked around and it appears that there is already a proposal with the government regarding this. Timings are not included becuase its too premature to have it as buses have their own timings. 

Implementing this is a contentious issue. So I am not sure where Praja will fit in.

@ Ritu  -  Praja made a very sincere attempt at engaging with BMTC. In fact, the "bus day" was conceived by Praja. However, given BMTC's lackadaisical approach, as detailed here, the team members eventually got disenchanted, and most seem to have more or less given up on BMTC as incorrigible. Having dealt with BMTC more closely even earlier, as the Co-Chairman of its Commuter Comfort Task Force, I was skeptical of any change anybody will be able to bring about, and formulated my own approach as detailed here. I expect it to gather momentum sooner now with the impending inevitability of restrictions having to be imposed on usage of personal vehicles.

But, of course, let me not dissuade you. Miracles do happen, and perhaps you are the one with the required magic touch.

SB, Ritu, Mahesh,

Your attempt to elevate ordinary public's plight in getting bus info is laudable. However I have a humble suggestion to make. Push BMTC to have those systems in place at BMTC itself rather than private individuals like you to invest time and effort to run a parallel system/tool. Reason being, even if Praja come up with the front end/User Experience, it still needs data inputs.

There are only 2 choices here. One, we build data inventory ourselves from existing data points available through different entities. that feeds into building maps, routes etc. Other option is BMTC itself putting a robust system which always carries the latest data and information on bus routes, timings, frequencies, additions, deletions etc.? if you carefully examine the 2 choices, I am sure the later one would be the clear choices for reasons:

1. Every tool/application can based of single data inputs

2. Data gets updated as BMTC makes updates to existing routes, deletes existing routes, adds new routes etc.

3. Such a database would be of immense value to BMTC itself in planning, analysis and reporting.

4. BMTC itself can host apps/tools that would harness this data and provide commuters with route building, route search, and all other travel related amenities.

You still can build tools and apps to run using system that is going to be in place at BMTC and probably host it on BMTC site or any other site. Extend those apps to cell phones and hand held devices. There is no dearth of such applications.

When we had last checked with BMTC in Feb/March 2010, unfortunately they didn't had any system from which they can feed bus route data for commuter amenities. Therefore, depending upon your choice and priority, you may want to look into this aspect as well.

-Syed

Yes it is true.  Such displays are found in exclusive walking paths around Central London. Most of the walking paths are through the open space and gardens.  In some walking paths cyclist are also permitted along with the pedestrian.

Mahesh, we are not setup to implement, I wouldn't want to implement also, our job should be to expect and ask why such basics are not in place. BMTC certainly has the money to get things implemented. What we can help is with

• show some samples if we have bright ideas on how to do this.
• or, if they are planning to implement, just ask after it, have them share what they are planning to do, put some pressure to get it expedited

Other thing is, based on our experience, BMTC doesn't have good internal systems to readily give you route data etc (information). If they could fix that root cause (of why website doesn't have enough and accurate information), then we can get the data from them on regular basis, and find some sponsors to do our version of maps. But this is a bit far fetched right now, unless BMTC is on to some internal IT improvements work as well. My information is as from late last year.

That is it, you said it right. whether we will fail or success is secondary. I will work on a meeting with BMTC, could take 2-3 weeks max.

Meanwhile, let us meet ourselves, or talk on the site to build a crisp list (what we want, how we want to help, with examples) to take to them in that meeting. Can't do such talk on this post, time to create a separate project area now?

Me and dvsquare too planning to meet BMTC next week.

a) Regarding a new route request over Hosur Road Elevated way - dvsquare

b) Implementation of Facebook for BMTC in line with BTP - bheema

Probably we can combine all points. I would be interested to join any Sats/Sundays except tomorrow.

@ Ritu S

The following is the text of a letter addressed to Mr K R Srinivasa, IAS, Managing Director, BMTC by Mr N Mukund, member CAF, on the 29th June

Dear Sir

Greetings and it was nice meeting you at your office. Though BMTC is doing its best  for improving its services, please find the issues/observations   which i thought of sharing with you .It is not complaint or criticism ,our intention is mutual benefit

1) General Lack of Punctuality  with  cases of unreliable services ,hardly bus timings are maintained .Drivers are forced to follow the old time sheets in spite of the present traffic conditions and hence  many drivers indulge in rash driving
2) Services during early mornings, late evenings & off-peak hours are too few, erratic & unreliable. There are no school bus services(except contract buses) hence school children especially middle and lower middle class  should wait for long hours and commute with general public . Similarly many office goers would be waiting for buses for hours between 6 pm to 7-30 pm at places viz -MG Road, BBMP offices etc
3) Buses follow non-regular route/s.; no actions have been taken in spite of complaints. Some buses do not stop at designated stops
4) Too many routes & route nos. that confuse users. Alternative routes can be explored with consultation of public and traffic police
5) Bunching up of buses – at a time many arrive & after that, there are no buses over long periods. especially on Sundays and holidays
6) TTMCs already in operation or those that are being built are at locations where BMTC has “land available”, & is not based on commuter needs.
7) Lack of information to commuters about when a bus will arrive (no GPS sets installed on buses to facilitate scroll boards at bus stations that announce arrival times, tracking, etc.).
8) Senior BMTC officials (except ticket inspectors) hardly travel in buses –except on Bus days hence they do not understand commuter’s problem in depth
9) Insufficient publicity & information on services, routes & other BMTC facilities, including On-line information.
10) Some destinations have too few Volvo services, whilst others appear to have too many, no proper survey is done.  Before a route is introduced and there is no public consultation being held as there are no Commuter Forums in each Depot
11) Rough Behaviors - Many bus drivers & conductors are behaving in so rough way as if we are traveling free of cost
12) BMTC runs many conductors less, single door buses, where it is difficult for passengers especially for ladies to enter and exit .The driver would be driving in one hand and issuing tickets in other hand which will lead to accidents

Regds, N. Mukund

Reply from CTM Operations, BMTC

BMTC appreciates your concern about the matters related to its operations & thanks for your valuable suggestions.   The point wise reply  &  the action taken on the issues raised by your good self is as  follows.

1) The scheduling of services is being done very scientifically and the frequency is distributed based on the actual requirements. Due to severe traffic congestion, there may be variations in timings of the operations. BMTC is deploying Traffic controllers at high potential traffic   origin & destination control points to monitor the timings & regular operation of the schedules. BMTC has more than 700 traffic supervisory staffs to monitor the operations physically, besides monitoring by Sarathi Patrol Squads. In the last 2 years, we have revised the timings of 3500 schedules reducing the number of trips based on the actual requirements.

2) The distributions of trips are reduced in the nonpeak hour particularly in the early morning. Sufficient care has been taken to cater the needs of commuters particularly during the late hours. Both the bus stops mentioned are highly density corridors & we have deployed sarathi Road Patrol squads to monitor the operations.

3) BMTC operates 6000 buses with around 80000 trips all over the City. We have a system of monitoring the operations through our 30 bus stations 60 control Points & 10 TTMCs which all are manned by Traffic Supervisory Staff & Traffic Controllers. Apart from this BMTC has recently introduced 3-tier system bifurcating the area into 5 divisions to have close monitoring of operations through the Divisional Officers. We have also 11 sarathi squads to monitor the operation besides proper vehicle parking, discipline the crew, monitor the route deviations etc.

4) Bangalore City unlike the other cities has developed radially. We have villages & suburban towns all around the City who expects identical buses to their places. These buses are only concentrated on 12 Big-10 Routes which are going in & out from the city to different places. Though we have more Route Numbers numerically we have around 350 major route numbers. BMTC is making efforts to bring in destination-oriented buses through big-10 Services on 12 radial routes supported by Big Circle & Feeder Services.

5) Due to severe traffic congestion, we observe bunching.

6&7) BMTC is making several attempts to improve the PIS by upgrading the Bus Stations, providing information at Bus Shelters , BMTC in coordination with BBMP (which owns the Bus Shelters) is embarking on an ambitious scheme under which all the bus stops will have a basic directional map and service information specific to that bus stop. This is being taken up on a phased manner in view of its mammoth nature.

8) BMTC has already taken steps to deploy their field level officers on all important corridors & junctions to observe and monitor the operations.

9) Regarding Deployment of Volvo Services since they are high-end vehicles profitability and the load factor are the only criteria to operate such services.

10) BMTC is having “ BMTC Commuters Advisory & facilitation Committee “ comprising the representatives from the management of BMTC & representatives from the public& BMTC conducts meetings once in two months  and also have interactions  with the local residents associations individually and also along with local area representatives, MLAs, Corporators etc.

11) Having realized the importance of courteous behaviour  on the part of BMTC’s staff who come in direct contact with commuters on a daily basis viz the conductors, drivers etc BMTC has instituted an in house system that conducts reorientation courses to the serving one.  The aim is to inculcate commuter friendly attitude and polished, courteous behaviour in them.

12) Regarding Conductor less services, out of 5891 schedules BMTC is operating a very few of (only 200) Chartered Service schedules with Janapriyavahini Vehicles. These services are operated with exclusive trips to factories & schools. Only a few trips out of these services are operated on the routes during the nonpeak hour.

BMTC has started the feeder service operations on 19  routes with 70 buses w.e.f 26/06/2011 to improve the last mile connectivity in the outlying areas of Bangalore city. BMTC  has drawn an action plan for operating feeder service to Bangalore metro.

The points to be noted are:

• There is a new MD. Our 'knight in shining armour' :))), aka SB, had kind of given up on the earlier MD, and stated that once a new MD takes charge, he may want to revive his efforts at rejuvenating BMTC. So, perhaps the time has come.
• As compared to the normal practice of responding with standard responses like "letter received - matter will be looked into", the CTM has bothered to give a detailed response. May be there's already an air of change there.

All the very best. I'll however choose to continue with my campaign, since, first and foremost, I believe monopolies are inconsistent with today's world.
 

I am sorry I am unavailable for the meeting. I shall positively keep in touch with you during mid August.

on Friday. But I am ok to meet if it is Saturday around 12noon, as its weekly off. Also I would propose meeting venue to be in Shanthinagar BMTC itself. There is enough space/longue  outside BMTC offices in first floor. Kindly send a message to dvsquare also, coz he has points to discuss too. If its skype meeting we could do it during Friday night around 9pm. too.

@ Deepak.

If you deem it fit, you may add my experiences also in your issues on the irregularities of BMTC drivers and conductors. These are the facts but I have no records to prove.

1. I boarded the bus, during early morning hours, going to K R Puram from Majestic Bus Terminal via Kasturi Nagar and Ramamurthy Nagar.   Both the driver and conductor were not in favour of going via Kasturinagar for their own reasons. I purchased tickets and sat in the bus and insisted them to drop me at Kasturinagar.  In the mean time another person also got in to the bus and purchased a ticket up to Tin Factory.  Since I threatened to lodge a complaint if they do not drop me at Kasturi Nagar Bus Stop, they dropped me at the bus stop, taking a roundabout route. Thereafter, instead of proceeding towards Ramamurthy Nagar they diverted the route via Tin Factory to K R Puram.

1. My second experience was with driver and conductor from Shivaji Nagar Terminus during late night hours. (may be their last trip)  Both the driver and the conductor were very young and the destination was Sadananda Nagar.   Both of them refuse to go beyond NGEF Factory and decided to return to Shivaji Nagar from that bus stop itself.   They were not bothered about the complaints etc.     

@ Deepak,

Thank you for acknowledging.  Yes, it was my mistake. I have not recorded the numbers.  I am not in town to join you all.

Bheema and Ritu,

Hey, did we already got a meeting slot with BMTC folks on saturday?

Whom are we meeting ? and when? and how long they have given us the time-slot?

Deepak

@Deepak, Raja Rao, Ritu. 

Meeting confirmed with BMTC contact at Shanthinagar. Is someone can bring laptop too, it would be great, I will try.

Count me in for Saturday meeting with BMTC.  Friday I am busy.  If they have some sort of a board where we can write, would be great.

Friday afternon is difficult for me, but I can make it work in evening after 6-7.

I will be there on saturday 12:00 as fixed by Bheema with BMTC.

I am creating a presentation consisting 2 issues -

(1) introduction of point-2-point service using toll roads

(2) Pictures/desc showing irregularities of the bus-drivers on the bangalore roads.

Deepak

Yes, we have couple of issues,

I have mentioned in previous comment on the issues I will be discussing.

Bheema is going to talk about FB page etc.

Ritu is going to take the Route Display Boards issue.

I would like to request everybody, that we should remain inline with whatever issues we have discussed. If there are other issues as well, please try to take one by one, so that we just don't make this meeting as complaint-box instead of suggestion-review-discuss meeting.

Deepak

I agree that this should be more of a suggestion-review-discuss meeting. I have two more suggestions for BMTC based on my past experience. Let me see if I can write something on them before the meeting.

I just got last minute update from BMTC official that they have last minute trouble to make it. So they proposed 4pm instead. 

Kindly pass on the message to everyone invovled.  

Me and Deepak coming at 3pm itself

Can someone please update on the meeting for last saturday?

Congrats to Praja team for getting the invitation to Mr. K.V.Pathy for BMTC Grahak meeting.

I am surprised why they should have excluded Mr Pathy on some vague technical grounds - it's not as if it's some IB meeting going into some security issues. I am disappointed that the new MD too endorsed that view.

Either way, I didn't have much of an opinion about that set up - check this. Doesn't look like they have changed much over the years. Hope I am wrong.

It is unfair and would be better if some more Prajagalu also join Mr. K.V.Pathy to lodge a protest with BMTC Boss.    

If you ask me, meeting you should be last step, only after we come up with lots of discussions on issue and our suggestions. So I would encourage to discuss a lot here. I felt my proposal for facebook page creation was immature at this stage, which made me to put this comments :)

In facebook, its possible to make it one way. In other words, BMTC can block comments options. So still its doable, both Facebbook and Twitter. You know both of them cost nothing ! And people can get both facebook and twitter updates at their mobiles free of cost. *Only* cost would for BMTC to set up a handling process and add few temp/contracted staff. Suggestion would be to make it extended part of their complaint management system which already existing (Toll Free Number + A form at BMTC website). What is more is that a senior BMTC official can come and comment when a comment/suggestion are related to hign impact or policy matters.

It was long 3 hour meet with BMTC. Lots discussed but focus was on approach for designing a display board system. Idea was to make it upto-date, and a sustainable system in long run. We will see more details here soon.

Integra Systems & Services (M R Ravi Kumar) were the people who were doing the mapping for BMTC, during my "Yelli Iddira?" days.  I don't know if they are still associated with BMTC.