Adarsha Society at Mumbai, Why not Mantri Mall as well?

ITs a much larger mess. Why do we believe in going after only the big visible guys? Why not every other house that eats mandatory setback to build extra room, or car garage? Why not every other wedding hall that doesn't have required parking? Why not every other small business that eats onto footpaths?

Seeds of what you see with Mantri mall and Adarsha society are sown at these much smaller day to day violations. Why do we all take this approach of pointing out only the big names?

 What will a mall do with gardens? They are better off building that 60ft road & parking lot instead. The compromise is a good one IMO. If we needed a garden we should have made the whole place a garden. I feel reneging on maintaining the roads & sidewalks around the mall is criminal and should be punishable by law. There is absolutely no traffic management planned around that place.

 And the bylaws are good and actually beneficial to the public..but this fact rarely dawns on us because we are inherently selfish..

Feels pathetic to see serviced appts coming up in Indiranagar with the parapet roof almost projecting into the next site with a relatively old house constructed according to the bylaws..where is the privacy of the residents..if thats about indiranagar..rest of blr is far worse..people are now building houses with the expectation of their blatant violations being regularized..

I often chuckle when there is talk of too  much corruption in the govt etc by public..afterall arent we all corrupt too..its just that the extent is relative and it doesnt actually matter..small or big, corruption aint good!

Again, in all this mayhem, there are very few who still try remain clean like the lotus in the pond of slush and I bow to them!

Coming to who needs to be punished..I would say everyone..big and small..big will actually set visible examples and its in a way good to start with them!

Not defending Mantri Mall, must clarify this first. But in general, except for when these malls come up on the main roads/corridors, which leads to local traffic problem (U turns, wrong side driving etc), most malls seem to have parking space, they spend some effort to make sure there is no illegal (free!) parking on roads near them. Setbacks seem to be there, on front as well as sides. Due to the greater visibility that they have, they seem to do better than small 3-5 floor angadi complexes that don't care for parking on pavements, on roads, want to move bus stops away from their locations, dump trash on the road, and needless to mention, ignore all setback norms.

Govt doesn't have the guts or ability to "educate" the public at large (we, the violators), so it too sits back to enjoy when public show their anger at Mantri mall or Carlton tower types.

Akarama Sakrama is only an encouragement that in 10-12 years time, another new law will make all violations legal with a "one time" fee. There MUST be recurring penalties for violation so that building owners are either forced to think of doing alterations, or are reminded of their disregard for city laws every year. The problems that these violations create are not "one time", but life long.

Disregard for bylaws (via public-BBMP collusion) is the SINGLE BIGGEST reason for congestion problems in Bangalore. Sadly, most of us do not realize that.

Instead of Akrama Sakrama, BBMP should spend it's energies & resources on charting out all cases of violations for hiking up annual taxes through additional recurring penalties. This is the only logical solution - all those building owners in violation of bye-laws will eventually get tired of making exorbitant payments & will re-model or demolish construction over setbacks & fall in line.

Agree completely with this. Homes are deemed old approx. after 30 years and when it is time for remodel, owners will remember all the extra fees and adhere better to the building laws. Unfortunately, it is difficult to enforce through self-assesment. Violators (majority of pop.) need to be sent notices after taxes have been paid and should be on the database. This is the only way to gradually phase out and eliminate the menace. Of course, enforcement is always the key. If Akrama Sakrama in its current form is allowed, people will pay the one-time (or reduced pay based on bribes) and forget it the next time. Like paying road tax life time as if roads constructed out of the tax money last for a life time.

 Can we do some violation and give alternate land to BBMP?

Yes if you are building a public structure not a private one and the alternate comes from the same area also is of benefit to the public.

Hey hey, no no! Do not put words in my mouth here. Didn't talk of Push Cart vendors here. They are mobile, not fixed properties, they should be regulated under separate set of norms (hawkers, venodrs policy). When I say small guys, I am talking about thousands of road side shops or plazas that have been mushrooming in bangalore, more so in the suburbs.

Big ir small, does not matter. Mantri mall's footprint may be larger, but 10 60x40 plot buildings would have the same footprint, and I can tell you that for 1 mantri mall, there are 100s of small buildings that add up to create the parking, walking and traffic mess in our city.

Breakdown of civic administration in our city is visible in every suburb today.

@mcadambi, as you say, the bylaws have not kept pace with the growth. Instead of High FAR driven growth, we have sprawling Army and Govt campuses in the center of the city, and we are eating up lakes and suburbs in the peripheries to persist with house on a plot culture. This is a slightly separate topic, will leave for some other discussion.

The frustratig part about bylaws etc is that you and me just can't do anything. Can't dabble with dangerous people. I have my own bad experience from trying to complaint (at BBMP hotline) against a 4 floor building (no basement, no parking, no setback, eating up footpath) coming on right on a big corridor that I do not want to narrate here.

I think the two issues (FSI and congestion) are separate, though in Indian cities, particularly bangalore, they have effected one another so much that serious harm has been done to the city & it's image.

The city must first have sufficient means for people to move about easily if a high FSI is opted for that will result in much higher density. Unfortunately, bangalore ranks way too low to allow this, at least as of now, due to the myriad network of roads that is perhaps one of the most commute-unfriendly.

Increasing FSI without properly planning people's movement has already caused enough havoc for the city for decades now. Although Mumbai might claim to move millions of people to & fro, the quality of life there is perhaps far worse than in any other Indian city, primarily because of the larger FSI /densification with few open spaces & dirty surroundings. So, increasing FSI, whilst addressing some issues will bring with it newer problems & result in general degradation in quality of life.

@mcadambi, corrected, though I have seen bye-laws and bylaws used interchangeably.

@Naveen, FSI/FAR, Bylaws, congestion - we have touched upon 3 different things, but these can be made to connect via concepts like "group housing".

1. Shared benefits - There are benefits of shared amenities, safety etc when you live in communities. Group housing works to lower the cost of service delivery for local governments. Plus, prevailing house on plot scheme only brings out the worst in us (Indians, as in selfish - sorry to say this, but thats how we are)
2. Property Mobility - One type of mobility we rarely talk about and is also important is ease of buying / selling property. If your job moves to Kengeri, moving to that area is the last thing you would consider today, one reason is hassles of dealing with property transactions. Transactions are relatively more trustworthy and hasslefree in group housing setups.
3. Mass transport friendly - Vertical group housing schemes can sustain mass transport investments. Refer to Govt's decision to raise FAR along Metro corrridors. Why not do so for all Big10 routes as well? Or near major mass transit hubs (Majestic, Yeswantpur, Biyappanahalli etc) ?
4. Bylaws/codes are easier to implement for group housing - you live as packed as you want inside your group enclave, and play nice to rest of the city (via clearances, parking spots). Also, cost of safety measures (fire) is shared, so could be lower.
5. Mixed use - fits better with walk to work, and mixed use development concept. Can even have all activities in one building (Ex: floors 1- 6, retail shops, 7 - 30 housing, 30-40 offices, such things exist in Hongkong).
6. Packing people in smaller areas will leave more space free for parks and recreation. Refer - how many new sizable parks have we seen in last 12 years on city's periphery?

From what I can see of our city, high FAR based planned development in the center, or along mass transit corridors would be better than BDA planning more large layouts. On one side, netas and babus say they want Bangalore to be like Singapore or Hongkong (even better), but on the ground, you see large horizontal layouts planned. Tells you that we don't have a clear vision for developing the city.

K Raheja are reputed builders who would have taken all approvals and sanctions.

I have to disagree - the number of parking slots in Raheja residency were woefully inadequate (for 850+ apts, there were only some 500-odd provided). One can see cars docked all around the complex even now. No visitors parking space provided anywhere since there was no money in it. Parking slots were created and sold on setbacks as an after thought when it was realized that slots were insufficient, and parts of the promised peripheral jogging track had been removed to give way to parking slots, thus depriving all residents of "open, quiet & peaceful" surroundings.

residents themselves may choose to knock down their bungalows and join together to promote high rises....huge open spaces for recreation, as also the other benefits

This is only a matter of opinion, at best. Unfortunately in Indian cities, open areas do not continue to remain open since all sanctions and approvals are ad-hoc or arbitrary, based on money power that encourages buildings to come up haphazardly. If arrangements are made to provide mass transits and retain open spaces as planned originally, this can work well like in New york, Chicago or Hong kong where parks and green patches dot every neighbourhood, but we know how things pan out in India - Mumbai is but an extreme example of the principles that continue to be practiced in the country.