Disincentivising Private Tpt - some light at the end of the tunnel

Vehicle ownership per 1000 people stands at 765 in the US vs a measly 12 for India. While we may move off fossil fuels etc our travel per capita needs to increase as our GDP goes up. 

 I think the right way to reduce congestion is by introducing congestion charging on a pay per use basis at the place where the congestion is happening rather than as a tax everywhere. A tax is a blanket charge and penalises people who do not cause congestion. Whereas a pay per entry into the congestion zone (like the rest of the world has done) will not only discourage congestion in the inner cities where the problem exists, but also makes it incumbent on the govt to provide alternatives like public transport etc. 

This move rightfully spanks of govt lining up its coffers with taxpayer money to fund their deficit instead of using their minds to find targetted solutions.

 People without parking spaces are buying cars and lining them on the streets - essentially free parking. 

Still doesnt explain tax. There shoud be no free lunch anywhere. Parking meters that exist on Brigade road need to be on every street where parking is allowed. So charge those who park on the street if they cant build a parking lot for themselves. 

You should find one of these meters in every street where parking is allowed

Vehicle ownership per 1000 people stands at 765 in the US vs a measly 12 for India.

This maybe true, but motorization levels in the better off Indian cities is already similar to the wealthier cities in eastern europe & what is common in western european cities. Bangalore, with 7 million people has nearly 4 million vehicles, though at vastly lower levels of income than in Europe - 2-wheelers are the dominant category here with cars, a distant second. In europe, cars are the dominant category in almost all cities.

Motorization patterns in our cities is similar to elsewhere in East Asia & Asia pacific (Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City - both Vietnam; Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia; Bangkok, Thailand, etc.)

Whilst it may be true that congestion pricing is the answer to discourage this pattern of heavy concentration of private vehicles in cities, it might practically be difficult anytime soon since simple use of technology for traffic control is yet to see a beginning, yet.

BTRAC, the first such project is still to see the use of technology effectively with real-time monitoring to manage traffic. Such efforts are common now in most east asian cities & elsewhere, but we are yet to make a start. Congestion /cordon pricing is a step higher in technology use & we are nowhere close to this.

Unless our traffic management systems break away from the age-old manual system & start using technology, congestion pricing may not be possible.

The better option in the interim is to charge, in fact overcharge for parking & tax vehicles annually for ownership. This is unfair to rural India, no doubt, but there may be no alternative/s, at present.

Very true & I submit to Ramesh Ramanathan's & your ideas.

However, the reality here is quite depressing. This is not for want of trying - a start has been made with heavy investments into BTRAC, but if my understanding is correct, the real time monitoring of traffic with CCTV cameras installed at various locations has not taken off yet, possibly for the following reasons :

Poorly trained staff, lack of co-ordination, theft of cameras, etc.

Another important point is the unavailability of alternative routes for traffic diversion. The advantages with real-time traffic monitoring is thus diluted to some extent & SMS messaging with "avoid roads around corporation" or similar msgs is being used as a better option, for the present.

The most important reason for not considering congestion pricing yet, may of course be fear of backlash from citizens, especially since PT is poor. Thus, it is a political problem & involves fear of citizens' reluctance to endorse anything that effects their commuting & hence their economic well being.

Though I (& Ramesh Ramanathan & you & many on this forum) may favor use of technology for traffic management & congestion pricing, the common man & most others may not subscribe to this view in the absence of alternative provisions & is the major obstacle for such initiatives to take off faster.

There is hope - the Metro is not too far away. The first section/s will commence operation by 2011, & by then, if traffic monitoring with CCTVs has made some progress, congestion pricing may follow soon & may not be too far off.

This pattern is quite similar to most east asian cities that have installed Metros, BRTs, etc.. Until a proper PT network is in place, use of technology & diversion of commuters from cars to PTs is not possible & we will have to make do with stop-gap measures - we also have the burden of insufficient street spaces.

During the meeting with citiconnect, I was given to understand that the control center is operating & access to real time traffic information is ready, though I'm not sure if it's the new center.

The monitoring facility is but a first step. Presently, this information can only be "relayed" to traffic wardens or road users - Nothing More, I guess !

No doubt car ownership has to be taxed to keep a check & control on growth - they already are - Indian vehicle taxation is already higher than in many other countries.

It is also correct that we do not have to emulate the US - which is perhaps the worst example in the world - excessive motorization with little or no focus on PTs.

One cannot wish away private vehicles. Those who can afford will always be there & their wants will also have to be taken into consideration.

However, the anomaly here is that the concentration is too high in our cities (urban areas) whilst it is too low in rural areas.

The attempt by authorities must therefore be to make costs of ownership & operating vehicles higher in cities. This can only be done by congestion pricing & higher parking costs, besides other obstacles such as road use fee, tolls, etc..

 So we are clearing up the CBD roads to serve the richer people?  

So your solution is to tax the poor people also who may have bought the car in Bangalore but would want to use their car to go to their farm or a sattelite town but ends paying for the city he does not drive in? A city specific tax you are proposing is a localised congestion charge.

Apart from additional registration fees which could be seen as unfair, what is wrong with any of the others.  

If taxing the vehicle itself is unfair, Why tax driving licenses??? How far fetched is that.

Green tax! I would love that, but it has to be a fee based on how polluting I am. Not a blanket tax for everybody including the Reva owner. European countries like France have a green tax for polluting vehicles but they also provide a bonus for driving a green vehicle. I dont want money from the govt but I dont want to pay for my neighbours gas guzzler.

Other than pollution to the environment and causing congestion in the city I know no other reason we need to be going after private transport. 

Why tax driving licenses???

To encourage people to use PTs - this will have an indirect benefit.

Not a blanket tax for everybody including the Reva owner.

We are not sure if electric cars will also be taxed - for all you know, they may be spared.

the situation where we make it very expensive for private transport to exist is going to be extremely detrimental in the long run. You will think you have saved the world while our people will languish at the bottom of the pile. Let us look at solving specific problem with specific solutions.

People do not languish at the bottom by using PTs, if such PTs are made efficient by restricting private vehicles - singapore is an example, as are most european countries. Restraining traffic with high costs whereever possible is the only way to keep numbers in check, particularly in Indian cities & highways which do not have road networks designed for very large numbers of vehicles.

Mass transits for inter-city or intra-city such as rail systems & buses require much less road or track space than if private vehicles are used freely. Thus, 8-lane & 10-lane expressways may not need expensive maintenance in the same way, much less require widening to such an extent at all in the first place.

I agree that for personal use, one shouldn't get the same price for diesel as for the commercial purpose whose life is dependent on those. Government can decide to subsidize only for public transport vehicles or whose life is based on vehicles. But before doing that, govt should be equipped with very good technology otherwise it will just increase corruption and solves nothing.

Government has to give a positive attitude towards its public transportation system, be it efficiency, comfortability, easy-to-use, reachable, traffic-obediency etc.

For example, BIAL buses are very good example of this, its the most reliable source of coveyence for one to and fro airport.

With the current BMTC buses, with all their rudeness in driving, creating traffic jams everywhere, taking left after standing on the rightmost lane and vice versa on all the signals, not at all caring about the other vehicles on the road, not stopping at the designated bust stops, stopping the bus anywhere on the road eating up all the 4 lane road, overtaking other buses specifically at the bus-stops, noone will be encouraged to use them. Now, I see the volvo buses too following the same old BMTC buses pattern.

Let us focus on the problems Private vehiles cause within the context of Bangalore city and ownership of a resident Banglorean (example: me).

Congestion problem - There hasnt been a more productive way of reducing congestion than introducing pay per use congestion charging and introducing public transport. You achieve the same result of taxing vehiles but only where the problem is caused. If I own a vehicle in Bangalore and use it only for long drives and use PT to commute to work why should I pay a congestion tax? Will you run a PT to my favourite hillstation and off road destinations? Why should I be taxed for the same? Why should I be discouraged from owning a private vehicle. (look at this from a congestion perspective only, if you want to solve environment thats the next issue below)

Pollution problem - Introduce a charge based on the level of pollution caused instead of a blanket green tax. The implementation will involve holding a emission certificate endorsed yearly and audited like your taxes with stiff penalty on default. This way you encourage innovation in pvt vehicles to keep it green. Like the congestion I am worried about the method and not the concept.

Fossil fuel problem - There are already a charges on petrol, provide benefits to green vehicles. What forms of encouragement exists for green vehicles. You cant make it expensive to tank up only in Bangalore. I will tank up in Chickballapur on my way out of the city. If there is increase all over India how will you impose increased taxes only for pvt vehicles at the point of fuelling without impacting commercial and cargo transportation? I am open for methods of ensuring the same.

You are welcome to use private vehicle only for long drives, why should you pay a congestion tax? Why should you be discouraged from owning a private vehicle ?

I will not dwell on congestion costs since you covered them well enough.

Nobody is discouraging you from owning a private vehicle, provided you contribute to costs for upkeep of infrastructure that you use (even if they were only long drives away from town).

When you buy a vehicle, it's clear that the vehicle will use roads & add to the future burden for road development programs & road maintenance costs throughout it's life. These costs cannot be quantified. Even the most developed countries have not been successful in quantifying this to any degree of accuracy.

The agency chain between what is paid by you as a road user & the funds brought back to bear on road development & maintenance cannot simply escape the usual budget funding & stay within a closed loop, as you desire.

The only answer is to aim for revenue generation as tax (or any other name, if  you will). This also keeps a check on vehicle population & is an effective tool for demand management. Let me remind you here that all roads cannot be tolled - nowhere in the world is this being done yet, but as you implied, this may happen in the future, but this is still too far, & will need a great deal of study for models to be developed for such accurate charging. We might even run out of fossil fuels by then.

provide benefits to green vehicles. What forms of encouragement exists for green vehicles ?

Well, even green vehicles (electric or hybrid) cause pollution to some extent by using electricity, which is generated from power plants that add to atmospheric pollution. The benefit is that such forms of pollution are much lesser than fossil fuels.

I concede that presently, there are no "rewards" or incentives to encourage such vehicles, but they will certainly be coming soon - when the bill is passed, it may already have provisions for this. Else, it might come about as an amendment sooner (rather than later).

how will you impose increased taxes only for pvt vehicles at the point of fuelling without impacting commercial and cargo transportation?

True, this has been a can of worms - & you seem to agree with the difficulties. Governmental efforts to assist the poor by offering subsidies for fuel is philanthrophic. The only way they can recover such subsidies is through vehicle taxation & such other measures. Hence, the proposed increase in taxes, or charges :) for diesel vehicles.

You did not address my questions related to use of land for mega highways & also accidents & fatalities.

Again, these cannot be quantified. For accidents, there is a system of third party insurance, but there are limits on it's efficiency. Enforcement is also a serious problem with a lot of corruption. Hit & run cases are all too common. Besides, if a private vehicle owner loses his life too, in the process of an accident, the other victims stay uncovered & government has been paying ex-gratia out of it's own funds - these are costs too, for owning private vehicles.