For unknown reasons commuter rail is touted as "SECOND FIDDLE" to METRO. That is how CRS is pitched as in-consequence in city's PT systems. It is not only utterly false, but commuter rail service can beat any PT systems hands down.

As SB said in his comment, commuter rail is by iteslf an important and valuable PT system needed by Bengaluru. It is certainly not 'Second Fiddle' to other PT system in city.

It can even exist without METRO also? But public good demands integration of all the PT system with one another.

BMRCL is a end point mass transport service provider with a mandate to provide service in specific area. Also, they are going to cater to only small percentage of the bangalore population and they should not have any say in how many parallel transport options are provided in Bangalore.  However, if BMRCL has commuter comfort in mind and want to provide seamless connectivity it is understandable.  But, if they object because of revenue loss, then it is ridiculous.  

Many cities in the world have several parallel and complimentory train systems running to make the commute hassle free. As far as parallel services are concerned, i feel it is more the merrier. if two rails systems are running parallel in some areas,let it be.  In this case, for commuter rail, we are using the exisiting infrastructure and BMRCL or any body should not have any objection.

For example, KL Malaysia have 4 different companies (Star LRT, PUTRA LRT, KL Monorail and KTM Komuter) providing rail services.  the KTM Komuter a suburban rail system connects the suburbs upto 80 Kms from KL Central.  When they reach the city one line runs parallet to the LRT (Light Rail System) and it does not mean, that LRT should have any objection to the KTM Komuter train.    

http://kiat.net/malaysia/images/klintegratedrail.pdf

A natural question after reading how we feel from all the posts above.. what shall we do? Anyone planning a meeting soon to take this to different level? FB and other campaigns to make people aware of the need of CRS can be planned.

Just had cursory look and looks like RITES while making a string pitch for CRS has made the report wide open for implementation.If one were to take this on face value, it lobbies for what PRAJA and others have been demanding.

In Section 4.5, it makes a interesting remark:

Therefore, it is recommended not to terminate the commuter trains short of
Bangalore. Terminals need to be the farthermost stations in the CRS i.e.
Tumkur, Mandya, Bangarapet and Hosur etc. All other stations including major
stations like Bangalore City, Yesvantpur etc. need to be passing through
stations.

In fact, with EMUs, every station can act as terminal. The EMU gets
terminated at a station, within 5 to 10 minutes, it can start journey in reverse
direction. An additional line (or two) at every station (or at every alternate
station or so) shall be handy to terminate the EMUs. This type of Omni
Terminal system provides lot of flexibility in operations and the services can be
tailor made as per the changing needs of travelling public. This also avoids
congestion at any particular location.

 The Metro is running full on Sundays which shows people want to travel in trains, but they are not given an opportunity. The only real commuter rail available in Bangalore is Bengarpet-KR Puram route, of course for Bengarpet residents only. Other routes it has been denied.  Example in Ramnagaram-Kengeri route, all the trains are towards Ramanagram in the morning, which is opposite to what people travel in the morning.  There will be lot of demand for CRS even terminating at peripheral stations like Kengeri. By this proposal, people will start riding in trains, and start liking it and with it, there will be more support.

Chennai is building Metro with existing  commuter rail, also Mumbai etc even if we take example in India. Anyway, the BMRCL approach is wrong by doing secret lobbying. Secret lobbying is not good for democracy. BMRCL Metro's real competition is the cars, but they cannot take the cars on say by recommending congestion charges. The CRS's competition is buses.  BMRCL going against CRS may have other motives.

Actually, there are not even enough long distance trains connecting Bangalore. Bangalore could have gotten CRS long ago because there were so many Railway ministers from here. Also it is right of the city, because Hyderabad and Chennai have it. Bangalore did not get maybe because there was even opposition to it.  The administrators think that the city will be great only if everybody travel in cars. So this proposal is good enough without ruffling too many feathers.

Even if the current proposal is the final plan, we could work on doubling lines in Bangalore for the future, even making CRS profitable by getting carbon credits for the Railways!.

Am I seeing a charged up SB? Wow!, super way to ask questions. I liked your idea of PLACARDS outisde BMRC.

BTW, check the BMRC email address. Recently my email to BMRC returned undelivered.

Kadugodi to Kengeri is fine, how about Malur to Bidadi? Dabspet to Anekal? Even if you force me to change to metro, interconnect is not seamless. Tell me how will you change from Yelahanka metro stn which will come 10 years from now to the Yelahanka SWR station? So if I were to go from Dodballapur to Malur what would they have me do? 5 changes?

Anyway since the RItes report has trashed this stupid concept in section 4.5, there is no standing for the GoK to do this. TIme to get moving on a proper commuter rail now

BMRCL  is projected to handle 50,000 PHPDT as opposed to 80,000 PHPDT of Delhi Metro. Originally BMRCL  was planned for 80,000 PHPDT, but, due to the curves, land problems and short platform stations, BMRCL can have only 6 cars as opposed to Delhi's 8 cars. Also, due to curves, as per Railway Safety Commission,speed has been limited to 65kph which was originally planned for 80kph. This has reduced the overall PHPDT.

During peak hours, once Metro is fully operational, 50,000 PHPDT will not be sufficient, especially with the increase of Bangalore population at 1 Lakh per year. At that time, Gok will have to start scratching its head.

Gok on top of this wants it commuter rail passengers to take Metro. This is like putting more pressure on an already pressurized Metro from say 5 years from now.

CRS can take the 'burden' from Metro to a large extent by complementing it if it is allowed to cris-cross the city, especially from Metro terminal stations say Nayandahalli to Byappanahalli / KR Puram / Whitefield / Yeshwantpur.

CRS will not only complement Metro, but, Bangalore itself. Families who have relocated to Bangalore from suburbs like say Mandya, Tumkur, Hosur etc for employment purpose will relocate back to their native for cheaper cost of living.

People from these suburban areas who finish their education and just have got a  job in Bangalore, will continue to live in their towns. This density can be fully handled by CRS which otherwise should be handled by Road, Metro and City Buses.

Gok Should think in these directions. Gok should also take example of Western Cities where people drive down to stations in suburbs, take suburban train, reach main city, take a Metro / Subway / Tube in cities and reach their office which all could happen in 1 hour.

It seems like yes given the response of BMRCL MD, Mr. Sivasailam to Principal Secretary's email. But that yes seems to be laced with a carrot that BMRCL can implement the CRS.

http://praja.in/en/blog/k...

as mentioned in his own words..its just 'rambling' and he aint got no strong opinions!

Understandably so!

The conection to the airport as we know started with the ambitious HSRL as per Mr Sreedharans impetus..and when ppl started complaining of the costs..they wanted a  comparably cheaper alternative and everyone started backing metro..which at this time is preposterous!

COmmuter rail, I guess, is seen as 'lowly' in the portals of power..cant blame.. as we have never been exposed to the state of art!

The step motherly treatment to CRS is obvious when it comes choosing between CRS & HSRL or Metro. The latter r corporations having stakes of GoK. It is very easy to milk them.  to any extent like irrigation projects of Maharashtra. The railways  being  already a loss making, what moolah they can bring to those in power. Let us hold our nerves, the better sense will prevail tomorrow if not today. Satyameva Jayathe, Naanratam!

There isn't any need to criticize metro or start a campaign against it because commuter rail is yet to be considered. Both are necessary to address commuting issues for different segments. Commuter rail cannot fulfil the needs of all city dwellers for quicker access to airport - metro would do it better for urbanites, whilst commuter rail would fulfil the needs for suburbanites & people from across the state who are likely to arrive by commuter trains or long distance trains.

An example is Kolkata - commuter rail to airport has been a disaster though that city has far fewer business travellers & frequent flyers compared to Bangalore & they are now linking two metro lines to the airport there.

Let us concentrate solely on getting commuter rail services rather than pitching it against metro - there is need for both. Even for airport connectivity, there will be sufficient volumes for both as the airport expands & industries start operations in north bangalore - many are already in construction stages now.

It is heartening to note that a govt meeting is scheduled on 17-Nov-12 to discuss the CRS project.

I am quoting below an excerpt from the RITES report:

4.1 The reality

"No single mode of commuting (say it rail or road or metro or mono rail or so) can fully satisfy the commuting needs of any city. Bus, rail, metro, mono rail etc. have got different applications associated with them. They are meant for different sections of commuters and different trip lengths. An optimal mix of different modes of public transport should be the strategy for any urban planning".

To understand what BIAL connectivity with CRS entails, we need to look deeper at the realities. Approximate SWR track distances to airport are as follows:

1) BIAL from Baiyyapanahalli (via Yelahanka, Chennasandra) – 37km

2) BIAL from City station (via Yelahanka, Lottegolahalli & Yeswantapur) – 39km

Dependable airport connectivity requires frequent & fast services & this implies a dedicated double-track corridor with limited stop trains along the 37km or 39km route. This will pose obstacles for running commuter trains to various other destinations unless independent, physically separated tracks are built, not to mention the land acquisition costs that will be necessary for 37km (or 39km) with almost 10km of tracks within ORR (from City stn) as compared to 23km for metro outside ORR.

we dont even need a train, the BIA bus coverage within the city is far more comprehensive than any train. Make right of way on Bellary road & all 13 arterial corridors & run priority bus. If traffic increases embed tracks on the segregated road space & run train on the BRT corridor itself.

Trains will definitely be necessary – buses may be serving the airport to the best extent possible, but even as of now, they take too long due to traffic congestion almost throughout the day (my last trip from HAL to airport took two hours). BRT along Bellary road may help (it is being made signal-free anyways), but the delay is almost wholly within the city up to Hebbal.

The suggestion to lay surface tracks on all main streets (i.e. the 13 arterial roads) is impractical, disruptive & will not be feasible due to sharp turns, curves & the maze of intersections – even BRT is not feasible on all of them except on IRR, ORR or outside ORR (I had attempted this exercise for BRT long ago, but could come up with only single lanes & circular routes on few streets & even these were confined to short routes that serve as feeders for Metro). Any attempt to have dedicated corridors on the arterial roads will involve huge land acquisition problems that may cost several times more than building Metro tracks on the 23km or so past Nagawara - it might never be possible due to litigations & court directives.

why would you want to spend more on laying tracks elevated when the surface space is available for laying the SAME TRACKS?  You are confusing rolling stock quality with track type. Why can the existing IR space not be used for laying TRAIN TRACKS & metro type plush rolling stock be run?

I don’t think one can be so sure that Metro tracks are going to be only elevated (or underground) throughout. The airport Metro DPR is still under preparation & we do not know what it will come up with. However, there are indications – Gottigere-Nagawara line is to have over-head electric collection (OHE) whereas all other routes are with third rail. It’s a strong possibility that this has been done to allow for higher speeds on the 23km route past Nagawara – the tracks could well be laid on the surface & dip underground at BIAL.

Both (i.e. Metro & CRS) might seem excessive as of now, but will it be so in the decades to come with the levels of urbanization that are already underway? The present traffic scene is bad enough not to mention the volume of construction activity which gives an indication about how much more worse it will become – and to deal with this squarely, steps need to be taken now for both suburban & urban needs.

I think the long held biases & the belief that CRS is being neglected due to metro needs to be shed off since reasoning abilities seem to have been dented. Whilst the earlier suggestion was to lay rail tracks on arterial roads, there is the term 'vanity' being used since it is metro with a notional cost to boot the argument.

By this logic, spending 80 lakhs per volvo bus & 11k crore for metro rail are also unnecessary since they cost too much. Cheaper truck chassis buses & only CRS should be sufficient!

Volvo or metro are essential parts of the transport network that cater to different sections. Extending metro to airport will surely help a large section of urban commuters & flyers (from wherever metro operates). Similarly, CRS will benefit other sections & suburban residents including people from upcountry who have access to it, or even urbanites who live close to a station. I think this is plain & simple.

NUTP recommends differentially priced services (cheaper fares for those who cannot afford higher prices and premium services for those who would shift from personal vehicles if they get quality services). There is certainly a case for metro to the airport as there is a case for CRS as well. As of now, neither commuter rail nor metro may seem urgent, but both will become essential in future. Thankfully, investments on CRS are not much & this makes it possible to divert some trains to airport instead of Chikkaballapur, though it will not be a limited-stop, fast service & will not suit flyers.

Considering the easiest option of extending Nagwara line to Airport which is about 23 Kms, @Rs. 200 Cr Per Km over the grade, cost would be about Rs. 4,600 Crores.

This calculation is incorrect - what is "over the grade"? If parts of the Metro are built at grade (as it is likely to be), the cost would be significantly lesser.

"Transport is not a technical problem. It is not an infrastructure problem. It is not even a financial problem. Most often, it is a Political problem" – this is what I had said & it was a generalization. However, in this case, I think the govt is doing the right thing by studying various modes, their pros & cons, etc before taking any decisions.

Naveen

   it is not the question of having one form of transport over other.  the question is what we can afford or what is the state transport budget for Bangalore.  I am sure it is not unlimited and if metro eats up most of the budget with lesser impact, then definitely GOK has to prioratize what they can do and what they cannot.  

leaving aside the phase 2 metro which is already committed,  the CRS and airport express would be competing for funds.  with the BMRCL influence on the GOK and may be bigger bite the politicians can get with new infrastructure, guess which option will get first priority.  

17th Nov would be a important date for CRS dream to be realized.  if things don't pan out as per our expectation, then the only option is to kill the Airport metro and give priority to CRS.  As I said earlier, we may have to look at PIL option in order to stop the airport metro.

look out for the tone of the 17th meeting outcome. they may not out right reject it but, conviniently postpone it until the airport DPR is ready.  

If parts of the Metro are built at grade (as it is likely to be), the cost would be significantly lesser.

But we already have land at grade is my point, what else will the metro be building at grade? tracks? build it in IR space why spend on fresh land acquisition? what else, plush looking train? run the nice looking rollign stock on this track for airport. I dont mind using a nice looking ride to the airport as I am a volvo bus patroniser myself

Also heavy luggage is not allowed on any metro, even if they make an exception on the airport line only it defeats the whole purpose for one has to take the bus/taxi til the airport line even if they have a metro running next door. While commuter rail apart from allowing heavy luggage can allow people from the suburbs to reach airport since suburbs dont have BIA buses. Imagine what mysore/mandya/bidadi, tumkur, cbpur & Hosur/EC/ORR/ITPL belt can do to airport traffic.

On a related note hows the Delhi airport metro line doing?

The fear of CRS neglect due to Metro is not based on personal biases or prejudices against Metro. It was based on information collected during the past 2 1/2 yrs while interacting with various govt agencies.

What information led you to believe that CRS was being neglected in preference for metro? I think the govt is certainly interested in CRS since DULT raised pertinent questions to be included in the final RITES report whilst in the interim, an assumption was made that metro was being favored, isn't it? Wasn’t this a case of jumping the gun too fast?

For 23 Kms, based on WSA figures, Metro will cost anywhere between 3500 Crores to 4600 Crores assuming all at/above grade.

How did you derive this estimate? When metro airport DPR is out, accurate costs & other information will be known. Till then, I don’t think speculations can be made based on what RITES /WSA reports state since it may be way off the mark.

CRS and airport express would be competing for funds.  with the BMRCL influence on the GOK and may be bigger bite the politicians can get with new infrastructure, guess which option will get first priority

I don't think they will be “competing” for govt funds. Since CRS will be cheaper & feasible more easily with existing infra, govt will most likely clear it. Both might materialize since we have a unique problem with airport too far from a city that also has excessive congestion, even by Indian standards, probably the longest road commute time to airport for any city.

Total Airport Ridership estimates: By 2011 - 40,000; By 2021 - 90,000  Source - DPR for HSRL by DMRC, 2012 Rites Report.

These numbers are for a dedicated, non-stop HSRL & not for metro that inter-connects with other metro routes & then speeds up probably past Nagawara - the numbers for this service may be much higher & a better informed projection should be in the DPR.

But we already have land at grade is my point, what else will the metro be building at grade? tracks? build it in IR space why spend on fresh land acquisition?

I don’t think this is solely dependent on the assumption that land is already available with IR. Needs & conveniences for all sections of commuters is primary. Existing IR land will be needed for developing commuter rail services to various destinations as also future track expansions for inter-city trains. If dedicated commuter airport rail infra is planned, it might involve expensive land acquisition since 10km of track lies within ORR. Besides there will be additional costs for the longer track distance by abt 15km.

No decisions can be taken until all relevant issues are fully understood including cost /benefit analysis. The likelihood of lesser ridership with increased /circuitous route length for CRS & if at all it will attract urban air passengers (due to longer commute time) & any other obstacles it might pose for running CRS to other destinations will no doubt have to be considered.

heavy luggage is not allowed on any metro, even if they make an exception on the airport line only it defeats the whole purpose for one has to take the bus/taxi til the airport line even if they have a metro running next door.

Not necessarily – luggage scanners are planned in stations (installed on reach-1 stations, but not in use yet) & similar scanners can be made available on other routes & stations. Further, remote city check-in may also be planned - we will know details when the DPR is out.

Imagine what mysore/mandya/bidadi, tumkur, cbpur & Hosur/EC/ORR/ITPL belt can do to airport traffic…Against airport metro line we can file as individuals

Metro can do well for city /urban air passengers & CRS can do well for suburbanites – both have merits. I think these arguments favor only CRS & against the metro, neglecting other equally larger sections (probably higher numbers) that have access to metro but not CRS. Threats with PIL will only be counter productive. The objective is to ensure CRS comes through & there isn’t any reason why it won’t, given the benefits it can usher with far lesser costs.

On a related note hows the Delhi airport metro line doing?

The ridership was 20k per day (almost same as reach-1 of namma metro now) before it closed down for repairs. It is expected to reopen soon. Fyi Kolkata commuter train to airport is performing much worse with abysmally low ridership, sometimes in single digit numbers & now, there is only one train in the morning & another in the evening though that city has very large number of low cost flights that cater to migrant workers in Bangladesh, Malaysia, Singapore, etc (unlike Bangalore which has a very large proportion of business travelers). So, whilst these are indicators, all aspects relevant to Bangalore need to be scrutinized before conclusions are drawn.

Anyway, for Bangalore, I think both (i.e. CRS & metro) will have sufficient numbers, given that the airport is way too distant & takes far too long for people to reach by road + cost for bus commute is high.

Not necessarily – luggage scanners are planned in stations (installed on reach-1 stations, but not in use yet) & similar scanners can be made available on other routes & stations

It has nothing to do with scanners. Bangalore Metro Rail (Carriage and Ticket) Rules 2011 limit the weight of personal baggage to 15 kg. Rule 3 says: “No person shall, while travelling in metro railway, carry with him any goods other than a small baggage containing personal belongings not exceeding 60 cm by 45 cm by 25 cm in size and 15 kg in weight, except with the prior approval of the metro railway administration.”

Source

Needs & conveniences for all sections of commuters is primary.

What are these needs & conviniences and for which section?

For past 27 years many attempts have been made, but none has seen any progress.

Agree CRS should have materialized much earlier. Authorities have been sleeping on it to this point when it has now become inevitable. Metro for bangalore was also much delayed. I think bashing one for the other is not the way to go. I don't think BMRC has "weight" beyond what their mandate is & they will only do what they are told - they do not run the city. Even if politicians try to score points by going after metro, there are several checks & balances since there are funding & viability /ridership issues that will be scrutinized for clearances. It will not be easy for them to get it through, particularly since the Delhi airport express saw lesser ridership than projected.

I am bored with train getting halted at DULT station

Cheer up - such projects do take long even elsewhere. There are numerous examples. There seems to be light at the end of the tunnel now!

Bangalore Metro Rail (Carriage and Ticket) Rules 2011 limit the weight of personal baggage to 15 kg.

Metro rules can always be amended - I don't think this is any issue at all.

What are these needs & conviniences and for which section?

I think this is very obvious & needs no explanation. Anyway, what travelers will look for is obvioulsy convenience & reduced transit time. Metro will offer better convenience than CRS for city dwellers since they can board a train from south or west or east easily & change over to the Nagawara route without having to lug their baggage over long distances, whereas for CRS, they will have to come east to Baiyyappanahalli (if the airport train commences there) or go to SBC (if it starts from there) by taxi or auto & then change over. If they go to either point by metro, there will be a long walk with luggage since metro station is some distance away from railway stations. Apart from this inconvenience & additional road commute time, there will also be longer commute time on the train trip due to longer CRS distance, unless a dedicated fast or express commuter train for airport is planned.

However, for up country users who arrive by commuter trains, they will find commuter train more convenient since change over may be within the stations or adjacently.

if they decide to take another route..then going at grade for major sections of the airport line might be feasible

Exactly - we need to wait for DPR before throwing stones!

A lot of people use long distance trains to travel between City / Cantt railway stations and Krishnarajapuram. No idea whether they do this on other routes like Kengeri, Yelahanka, etc.

Would RITES or someone else have data on such travel, and would this data help buttress the argument for CRS ?

Yes, there is data as part of the RITES report on CRS. Based on demand, the report recommends commuter trains on YPR-BYPL-HSRA, YPR-TK and YPR-CBP in the 1st phase. I think CRS will easily be cleared since the numbers are substantial.

I would like to go in the Metro for sucha long distance and enjoy the ride once in a while, so it will act as a trigger for making people like the trains

Airport train on CRS track can also be of the same quality, they dont have to look like the interstate trains you currently use. I cant believe you guys are dumb enough to  confuse rolling stock with track lines. 

Let me put this another way, commuter rail system has nothing to do with running the airport train on the IR tracks/space that currently goes near the airport which can be extended to the airport. Call it a metro & run it on the current tracks instead of buildng new tracks somewhere else, also this can be done by BMRC and not have to wait for the CRS to get started.

abidqa,

Praja is demanding it, but people are not demanding CRS.

What is the manifestation or measure of people's demand? Dharnas, Protests, Rally's, petitions, public meets?

Where did you get this idea that Praja is some strange entity not part of the people? Praja community is part of that big entity called people, though we do not claim to represent all the sections. We do represent a section and have made proposal to Govt with information on need, demand and ways to address the issue based on data, facts.

Same can be said about Metro, MonoRail, BMTC's volvo service etc. Haven't come across street protests, signature campaigns, Publci Meets, Dharnas demanding for Metro or any other public utility projects?

In true sense this time around, CRS campaign is a Citizen's campaign for easing city's daily commute ordeals to some extent.

The responsive government is one which take up the public utility projects to meet the need and demand irrespective of whether there is a People's hue and cry or not. Governments should be taking proactive actions to ease the public's day-to-day needs.

Action on CRS is long due and doesn't need to be stalled for want of large people demand.

As our friend Naveen has said in previous comment, there is enough demand and empirical data to justify the approval for a full fledged Commuter Rail System. Even today, there are about 1.5 lakh people using for daily commute using existing long distance trains. It is time to formalize those trips into daily commute trips with the provision of regular Commuter Rail Service.

Having also contributed to praja’s CRS effort & with focus on the objective of getting CRS, I am now compelled to make another request not to needlessly argue against metro. The emphasis that airport train connectivity must only be with CRS or only along the CRS route is rather ludicrous & will be counter-productive, given that any sustainable mass transport option must always be welcomed in whatever form. The attention to CRS seems to have resulted in tunnel vision since it may be a pet project to a few. CRS unfortunately has some limitations & this must be accepted. Irrespective of this, the demand should be for “both” due to needs of the future, if not for now. The biases have also resulted in ‘blinding’ since the need for a quick airport connect for people who work at BIA & especially for air travelers is being overlooked.

As I mentioned earlier, existing SWR tracks are circuitous & considerably longer in comparison to planned metro route towards airport. I also mentioned that it might not be possible to run express airport services on CRS tracks unless dedicated tracks are built & separately allocated for the purpose & that it would be impossible with existing SWR land constraints. RITES report also mentions that some land acquisition is needed for doubling /tripling of lines to run CRS trains, let alone land allocation for dedicated fast express train tracks to airport. These aspects are vital if fast rail connectivity is to be handled exclusively by CRS, but they are being ignored conveniently without response, reaffirming the biases & the needlessly great affinity for CRS.

Actually, in comparison, more expensive land acquisition (areas within ORR) may be required over longer distances for CRS than metro if a full fledged express service is to be run to the airport. Even if express CRS trains are run to airport, metro trains will still have an edge due to shorter, straighter routing that will allow it to reach the airport in quicker time since the last 20+km will be non-stop, in addition to better urban coverage, especially in areas in the southern part of the city. Commuter trains will certainly help people near CRS stations, suburbanites & up country folks since it will be convenient to transfer to the airport commuter train from other CRS (or inter-city) trains, though trains may run slower.

Further, RITES report recommends commuter terminal stations on Binny Mill land near SBC (about 1.0km from Kempegowda metro station) & at the marshalling yard at BYP (1.2km from Baiyappanahalli metro station). This apart, other than Cantonment, Yeswantapur, Kadugodi & KRPuram, there is no convenient transfer between CRS & metro & vice-versa. This reinforces the need for both to provide connectivity to airport.

I don’t think anyone is dumb or positioning Metro for Elite and CRS for poorer sections, nor is it any irony or sad state of thinking. We are discussing fast airport connectivity options & routing issues, not quality of coaches, but the ‘fast’ part is repeatedly being ignored to further the argument against metro.

AHA! I wonder why all the metro fanbase doesnt go beyond skin deep "I like this nice looking train" & ask along these lines?

No point venting out frustration by criticizing others. Re-focus on realities & repair tunnel vision first. I don’t know of any ‘metro fanbase’ (doubt if there is one).

Why isnt an investment in easily/quickly achivable CRS to the airport being PRIORITIZED OVER an airport metro line?

Are you sure it isn’t being prioritized? A decision may be taken to go for it on 17^th.

Copenhagen is a good example…..

Fine, good examples may be everywhere. Proper solutions demand fastest connectivity to airport from city also as quoted on those examples.

None of these arguments for running a metro is butressed by any official feasibility study which takes into account other modes coexisting or as an alternative.

HSRL study quotes 98k passengers by 2021. This substantiates need for fast connectivity to airport. The demand for a study that focuses on “co-existence” of other modes is fantasy & sounds like desperation, which is needless.

Metro is not required until further investment is made into alternatives like BRTS & CRS & stabilized to service the airport.

No – it is required & has nothing to do with “stabilization” of CRS. CRS does not require charity & no one needs to beg on its behalf. It will stabilize itself once train services run in multiple directions with new stations along the routes that act as feeders.

Silk Board ...All these survey's which RITES or any third party does, it will be submitted to the politicians, I really doubt whether they go thru all these reports ? secondly do they understand the complexity of the report ? even when the final report (which is good) is submitted these guys are not able to take decision. keep postponing the project. i doubt whether they read or understand the statistics reported.

ALL THEY WANT IS FANCY NAMES.....METRO ....HSRL...probably we may have to coin some german or italian name...which is similar to CRS..so that it looks fancy and attractive to them. 

kamal

Naveen,

We have a couple of CRS flag bearers here arguing that metro is not at all needed for airport since CRS, the saviour for all, will take care of any & all airport commuters' requirements amongst many other miracles that it can perform!

CRS miracle can only happen when it is implemented. No sign of that yet now. All that we can say now is this talk of BMRC's active support for CRS is blabbering and 'hear say'.

Flag bearers - liked your compliments :)

Unlike tall claims of CRS as the cheapest & only solution for airport, nobody has claimed nor denied your so called BMRC's "active support" for CRS - there is no proof for either. In addition to such bizzare imagination, you seem to have problems understanding posts - recommend you read through again.

CRS being cheapest claim is not made by me but made by RITES, a government agency known for expertise in railway infrastructure building consultancy. You are at liberty to dispute RITES's claim.

Regarding BMRC being supportive or not will be known in due coarse from official sources. That will prove whether this thread was mere hear say or there was any truth in it.

I have read this post multiple times before also and this time on your suggestion I did read it once more. I still believe that there is some truth in the meat of this thread.

And I stand by my position on total cost of metro line to airport will be able to fund at least half of the CRS project including connectivity to BIAL. If the choice has to be made between Metro to Airport or CRS , my money is on CRS. But who will ask me?

With that I will rest my case here. Time to take this CRS campaign to next level.

Tirusulam in Chennai and  Vile Parle in Mumbai are the closest commuter train stations to their respective international airports..just curious how much of airport traffic these stations carry..

The numbers will probably will probably give some estimates on what can be expected in Bangalore..

With the exclusive elevated highway coming up on NH7..it would be interesting to see how BMTC gears up with the Vayuvajra service using this road..guess that will take care of travel needs for the immediate future..I would then see Commuter rail picking up aftr tht and the metro coming last..

BMRCL can get the DPR or anything else done..but they are poor in implementation..looking at the progress of Majestic station and UG sections..so those metro trains may just see the light of day end of this decade..that is if we are lucky and if Blr keeps the pace of growth!

Delhi Metro is running full at peak hours with more trains and more bogies being added.  It means that people have taken to metro and left their cars and bikes at home, Right? Wrong!. The traffic in New Delhi during peak hours is same as before and number of cars & bikes on the road are same or more.  This phenomenon is hard to comprehend when you see the metro going full but, it is not.  There is a simple explanation.  

People who were traveling by bus and other modes of transport have shifted their mode and using metro.

The very success of metro (huge crowds) is discouraging car users from using the metro.   It takes more than 20 minutes to get into a train during peak hours so the commute time is much more than using a car

The metro has become an air conditioned Bombay local.  In fact Bombay local has more seats than metro.  With only, about 10 % of the commuters would have seats, it is strenuous to travel.  

Last mile connectivity is either very expensive or most uncomfortable.  It is either cycle rickshaw which is most uncomfortable and dangerous to travel or shared auto rickshaw or van where you don’t have say in number of people pushed into them.   If auto rickshaw is hired without sharing the cost of commute sky rockets.   Buses are out of question as they are overcrowded and take lot of time due to round about travel. 

So basically, none of the three most important aspects of public transport are favourable in case of metro (cost, time and hassle) so no wonder it has failed to attract car users.

Commuters in Bangalore have huge expectation from metro but, my gut feeling is that same fate awaits them unless,  some specific measures are taken to provide comfortable ride and last mile connectivity which should reduce at least one of the two (cost or time) and the third one (hassle) has to reduce and definitely,  there is no compromise on that.

On the one hand, there are demands for good public transport to reduce commute times & restrain traffic growth. On the other, there is criticism against metro, with claims that commuter rail is the one & only solution for all traffic & commuting problems.
It is obvious that both are equally necessary to address various segments & areas. There are also severe route limitations with commuter tracks in Bangalore (& all other cities). For example, commuter lines do not cover the huge arc between Mysore road & Sarjapur road as also most central /CBD areas. So, it cannot cater to these areas - only metro can. Likewise, metro cannot be extended to towns like Tumkur, Ramnagar or Hosur.

As for ridership stats on various lines of Delhi metro:
1) Blue Line has a combined length of 58.7km. Ridership was 925,707. So, on average, the ridership per km was 15,770 with per hour/km load of 927.
2) Yellow Line is 44.7km long with ridership 860,985. Average per/km ridership was therefore 19,261 (higher than blue line), per hr/km load 1133.
3) Red Line is 25.1km & carried over 3 lakh, so average per/km ridership was over 11,952; per hr/km load 703.

4) Violet Line (opened 2010) length is 20.0km & had 169,487 people. Avg/km was 8,774, per hr/km load 516.
5) Green Line  (opened 2010) is 18.5km with ridership 84,243. Average perkm/day is 4,554, per hr/km load 268.

So, the general trend has been that older lines have more riderships than newer ones & new lines will take some time to increase passenger levels.
The claim that DMRC found the answer "at last" & "by luck" is without any basis. There always will be some routes that may not be as over-crowded as the blue or yellow lines - this does not mean that they are ill-planned /not required, etc etc.. With their ability to connect such areas with the metro grid, they are bound to increase ridership levels since growth will take place faster in those areas due to available capacities to transport people.

The green & violet lines were non-existent 5 years ago - read my post again.

I will bet the ratios will not change in next 5 years..

Ratio changing or not changing is irrelevant when there are sizable number of users on individual lines, justifying the need for them.

having a metro line to these out of state lines without trying a commuter rail option

Check your facts before making these vague statments - there are no railway tracks from Delhi to Noida or Gurgaon. And what makes you think commuter rail hadn't been tried in NCR? Read this about Delhi Suburban Railway on wikipedia:

"Delhi Suburban Railway is a suburban rail service operated by Northern Railway for the National Capital Region. This railway service covers Delhi, along with the adjoining districts of Faridabad, Ghaziabad and other adjoining places in Haryana and Uttar Pradesh. These services are mostly run using EMU and MEMU rakes. This also includes passenger trains and DMU services up to Rewari in Haryana, which is also considered part of the National Capital Region.

Delhi Ring Railway: The system is not popular among individual travelers and has been a total failure as far as public transport is considered. Delhi Ring Railway is considered as an example of failed mass transit system. The major reasons for failure of the system are lack of workable connections to other methods of transportation as well as a low-density population in the areas of reach. Making matters worse, the station exits usually open into narrow, dirty alleyways - often more than a kilometer away from the main road.

The network is now utilized as a freight corridor, though limited passenger EMU train services are available during peak hours. When New Delhi, Old Delhi and Hazrat Nizamuddin stations get overloaded, many of these trains are diverted and made to wait on Delhi's ring rail network".

Naveen,

You are getting it all wrong. Though we are supporting CRS overwhelmingly, but nowhere we have made a poisition against METRO. We are certainly not against METRO or any such initiatives to mitigate the city's urban commute.

But also it can't be METRO only proposition. City like Bengaluru needs multi modes of mass transit systems catering to CITY CORE, SUBURBS and adjacent Towns. Therefore planning has to be for all sections.

It is no brainer to understand that no ONE PT system can cover the 100% of the population.

I wish people read reports with more attention.

RITES Report (FINAL), SEC 4

4.1 The Reality
No single mode of commuting (say it rail or road or metro or mono rail or so) can fully satisfy the commuting needs of any city. Bus, rail, metro, mono rail etc. have got different applications associated with them. They are meant for different sections of commuters and for different trip lengths. An optimal mix of different modes of public transport is normally the strategy for any urban transport planning.

let me try to explain my comment abt resources..we have a excellent piece of infrastructure in the mysore road flyover built 15 years ago..L&T did a very good job in implmentation and its easily still the best constructed flyover in town..

But is it 'really' helping public? Is it being used to its capacity or even close to it today?

The answer is no unfortunately..the reason being the entry points are very poorly concieved and the ramps on SP road are at best shoddy and the traffic is getting bad every day on the JC road/corporation jn few 100 mts from there..

No doubt another 10-15 years down the line the flyover ridership will improve..thanks to our population, but it has failed to resolve the immediate needs of public..

The same is with DMRCL and BMRCL..it doesnt help having a terminal stn at byp just because there was free land available...getting to ITPL and to EC was more important to cater to current public needs..they finally seem to do it phII..which is a good sign.. I hope the same could have been true for DMRCL lines too..if it is I will be glad!

As deifned on wikipedia about Delhi commuter rail:

The system is not popular among individual travelers and has been a total failure as far as public transport is considered.Delhi Ring Railway is considered as an example of failed mass transit system. The major reasons for failure of the system are lack of workable connections to other methods of transportation as well as a low-density population in the areas of reach. Making matters worse, the station exits usually open into narrow, dirty alleyways - often more than a kilometer away from the main road..With Delhi Metro growing at a rapid pace, there has been very little focus to improve the condition of the Delhi Suburban Railway. There have been reports of strengthening the services so that more commuters can avail themselves of the facility. Feasibility studies have also been done, and in deference to the commuter demand, there were also plans to start EMU services from Gurgaon^[

Unfortunately no internet links from 1995 decade..but I had read then in DH where L&T folks had approached BDA to have the mysore road flyover ramps starting in front of corporation office to ease JC road/Hudson circle traffic which they had correctly projected the growth back then..unfortunately BDA played with their payments and asked them to drop ramp abruptly to where it is now! L&Thad quoted an additional 10 Cr to do it..but was turned down by harebrained BDA with no foresight and the consequences we are living with to this day!

Yes about depot in whitefield would have actually worked..cos its a waste of primium land at NGEF which is being used for a depot..being close to the CBD it could have been better used for comercial establishments/offices..I have infact suggested this to BMRCL to look at shifting the depot to whitefield if possible..

I never said that CRS is the only silver bullet..all I said is it is ideal to have metro within city limits and have CRS connecting suburbs..

I did not say traffic should decide where metro goes..its travel patterns which needs to decide..most of the roads in blr are clogged because of bad design (hub/spoke)..instead direction based routing for both BMTC and KSRTC with the use efficient use of satellite stations..and multi modal integration can take care of it as you mention..unfortunately thats lacking in the current scheme of things.

"really did they need metro for this?"  "Could Delhi have done with a larger capacity..more affordable commuter rail instead?" is what you said. Now you say metro within city is ideal! Please make up your mind

Isnt Gurgaon and Noida out side the state of Delhi? So that way they qualify as suburbs..and as I said suburban rail could have been the first choice!

The same suburbs clause applies to your other statement "why not even further, maybe Malur since whitefield is also a CBD by itself now, isn't it?"

Good discussion. Have wondered what is the break point when METRO makes sense than CRS, given we need some Mass Transit system.

Obviously and everybody seems to agree that densely populated and heavily commercialised areas need METRO.

Assume a CRS needs around ~8m of width for double track and train. Over 1 km that is 8000 sq.m. Take a land cost of say Rs 10,000/- sq. ft which translates to 100,000/- sq. m, which would mean the land would cost 100,000 x 8000 = 8x10^8 = 80 crores. Take a CRS laying cost of 20 crores/km, totals to 100 crores/km, still only half the cost of an above grade METRO line at 200 crores/km. The assumption here is METRO does not need land acquisition.

That is it makes sense to just buy the land and build an at grade system rather than build a METRO.

Of course this is overly simplistic and does not take into account demolitions, road crossings and in general disruption to life. But it is to make the point that CRS is a very cost effective option.

We have a successful local train model in Mumbai. The reason it probably worked in Mumbai compared to other cities is that the train lines came first and the city developed itself around it. A Commuter rail planned with foresight will work, there is no reason it should not. The places where it has not worked well its probably more a design issue, lack of supportive urban planning etc than the fact it is CRS. A poorly planned METRO would have poor ridership as well.

In case of Bangalore, my take would be METRO should be used for core city areas since its practically not feasible to lay new tracks, say around the area contained in the Outer Ring Road. But plan NOW for a good at grade system that can help Bangalore grow, outside of Outer Ring Road..

Similary it is imperative that Tier 2 cities incorporate an at grade railway line in their town planning now and develop neatly with a low cost low pollution system. If they do not, 20yrs down the line they will be faced with the same dilemna and spend a lot more money for a very expnsive solution later.

The other costs involved with running a surface rail through the city is the need to have grade separated crossings ever so often.   Assuming 1 every km that's probably another Rs.15 crore/km.

And then the cost of stations - assuming one every 2 km - you will probably need 1000 sqm on either side for  the building and another 1000 sqm (conservatively) on either side of drop off/cycle parking ,etc.  Adding 4000 sqm at 100,0000 per sq m. Rs 40 crores/2 km or another Rs.20 cr/km.  Neglecting the building cost

Then for length of the platform which will be about 400m for a 16 coach train take another 6m on either side - or about 5000 sqm of land every 2km - or about Rs.25 cr/km.  

Then there will be the electrifcation costs (assuming that these will be electric traction) and the signalling costs (unless that is included in the Rs.20cr/km) and the station controlling equipment costs.

I was reading some estimates for Bangalore Metro and the traction costs were Rs.400cr, signalling costs Rs.300cr.   Depot costs were Rs.160crores.  The rolling stock was estimated at Rs.900cr.  

http://urbanindia.nic.in/programme/ut/Bangalore-metro.pdf

All these are included in the Rs.200cr/km estimate. 

These need to be added for commuter rail as well to make a reasonably accurate comparison even if  the costs are lower for commuter rail. 

Srivathsa