METRO..for..?

It is not radical at all. It is logical I would think. Let us make this a PT only street. Magic box can be used to go under.But does this prevent the trees at lalbagh being chopped?

If only this was light rail we could have used the road for normal traffic also since it doesnt use a third rail.

Whenever one thinks of Bangalore Metro, one always thinks of Above ground or Underground. How come nobody till Mr. Nityananda thought of At ground ?

The practicalities will have to be studied in depth of course, but at least it's a new idea.

Always wonder why Metros run as high as they do.  

At grade in residential areas is going to be tough.  Third rail is a touchy issue (pun not intended).  We will have to fence off the route.  At critical cross roads (27th cross/ Diagonal Road/36th cross/38th cross/40th cross have pre-cast underpasses cutting across.   WIll be great if we can create Bangalore's first pedstrian+Metro only road.  As said above there are plenty of roads  to use in Jayanagar as alternatives.   Most buses on this stretch to KBS and KR Market.  WIth NM going there - buses should run EW to feed NM rather than run to KBS and KR Market.

One more option is to go only high as needed.  The Metro pillars seem too high (and I am no civil engineer).  No double deckers ply on Nanda Road.  A bus is 10 ft high. Why do we need to go higher than this for the bottom of the spans?  It will save costs as well.   Will this save trees?

Srivathsa

The big metros abroad come to ground level (from below ground) when they exit from the core city and enter the suburbs. In fact I don't think I've seen a single elevated metro in the core ctiy anywhere, except in Delhi and Bangalore.

All the while I was under the notion that they are going to trim the trees only and make space in the middle as the pillars are on the median of nanda road..the trees are atleast 30-40 ft from the median..

This is more like making space as much needed for the metro and leave the rest untouched..more like a haircut for the canopy types!

Now there is a talk of 200+ trees being cut..are we missing something !!

Yes,   A PT only road is a good idea at first look.

    The ground level Metro lines and the barricades can be the wide-median of the road. Additionally, we have a 1+1 lane road to carry buses only. Considering that very few buses ply on the road, we could consider allowing even autos/taxis and even private buses to ply on the road.

     As suggested here, we should have underpasses at 28th crs, 32nd cross, 36th crs , 38th crs , etc.. But there are certain practical issues. Underpasses here will mean expanding the roads at these junctions, to allow for right and left turns from the cross roads. That will take a few trees off.

    Next we need to build bus bays for bus stops. THese bus stops then eat into the footpath space. To avoid that, we need to cut a few trees to create the bus bays.

    Crossing the Nanda road: To cross the road ( and a metro line) we need to put up pedestrian underpasses or skywalks. The entry/exit ramps will take a lot of space, and again eat into the pedestrian space.

     And why do you want to create so much of pedestrian space there? what is the amount of peedestrians there? Minimal, since there are very few commertial establishments or educational institutions (except NMKRV).

    Forgot the metro stations; They also need space, so allow a few more trees to be cut.

     the metro track itself cannot be a steep ramp. Since the metro is elevated till South end, it needs atleast 150-200m to ramp down to ground and another 200-300mts on the other end near Rajalakshmi. Also, unlike near South end, on the other end of the road the metro has to turn left and hence it needs more space there are a few trees to be cut.

    So, I would count that there will be little saving in the number of trees cut. Also, I may have left out several other things. Maybe some sewage and water lines to be shifted for building the underpasses and hence the need to cut trees around these lines!! May be some more to install electrial transformers nearby!!

  Simply put, the idea looks fine. But I believe, its not worth to bring the mtero to ground only for one station!!

 

-Srivatsava V

Simply put, the idea looks fine. But I believe, its not worth to bring the mtero to ground only for one station!!

This conclusion of yours is because of your "ADDITIONAL" cherries and icings you have suggested

Additionally, we have a 1+1 lane road to carry buses only. Considering that very few buses ply on the road, we could consider allowing even autos/taxis and even private buses to ply on the road..

   By making this a PT only road, can we expect a considerable increasee in pedestrians on this road? At present there are very few pedestrians on Nanda road. there are few on the service road and the cross roads. The good thing is that there are very few business establishments in the vicinity to attract large numbers of pedestrians. This is not Jayanagar 4th Block/ Shopping Complex area!!

  With this background, can you justify the need for further pedestrian maenities on this road? This road has had a decent footpath for ages!!

 

-Srivatsava V

 By making this a PT only road, can we expect a considerable increasee in pedestrians on this road?... can you justify the need for further pedestrian maenities on this road? This road has had a decent footpath for ages!!

There is going to be a metro line & station there whether you like it or not. So the same count of people will exist at whatever grade you want to build. All I am saying is take the road and build metro at grade. The traffic can be diverted to side roads. Nothing more complicated than that. So I am not proposing "further pedestrian amenities" like building extra footpaths etc. 

But for arguments sake it is possible easily to increase foot falls to the area by making the station have a mall shops etc, but thats beside my point. At grade stations are easier on both purse and legs. No need for escalators stairs etc. less concrete.

BMRC have only disputed building underground to save lalbagh not said anything about the Nanda road per se. At grade is conviniently ignored in discussions. Somehow metro is expected to only be up above or down under never at grade.

 If vidhana soudha can have the metro undergorund..an older heritage site like lalbaugh cannot?

Isnt lalbaugh our history? isnt it as valuable..if not more?

On the same lines..isnt nanda road our heritage too?

srivastava,

so MG road is not cbd? why is metro on pillars there?

i dont know if you have seen the damage to lalbagh in person..the place thats encrached is where praja held its monthly  meetings till recently..surrounded by tall old trees...

theres actually a parks act protecting it..however the authrities worked around that..just like many other projects..

I am not against the metro..but lets not do a carnage in the name of it..

 again srivastava, its not just the size..

this will set a precedence to other so called 'projects' to take away parks or parts of it..

what if they next sink a borewell and suck up all the water in the lalbagh lake? or ..citing another example..say what abt the HSRL to the airport start from cubbon park instead? afterall its not greater than lalbagh!

a very deplorable example to the broken window theory..very unfortunate!

I think Srivatsava has a point when he says that the nett length of the tracks laid on the surface will be well short of the total length of Nanda rd, as already explained by him.

The South-end station will be coming up before the junction on RV rd (opp Bangalore hospital). In any case, the tracks can ramp down only after the South-end junction & again, it has to ramp up before the turn at the end at Rajalaxmi Nursing home. Hence, RV rd station will need to be elevated if it has to be as close as possible to the end, & hence, the ramping up will have to be before RV station. All this will considerably reduce the length over which the tracks can be retained on the surface.

However, if rail tracks are laid on the road surface & vehicles are banned on the street, there should be ample width (the road is 4-laned) for arranging pedestrian tracks, bicycle tracks, as also to comfortably accommodate the intermediate Jayanagar station on the surface. In fact, there may be scope to widen the pedestrian sidewalks ! Some positive benefits, after all !!

Positioning underpasses at the various intersections to allow vehicle movements below the tracks may consume some of the park area/s only during the construction phase. Additional widths for arranging lanes for left /right turns will not be necessary as traffic will in any case, not be permitted on Nanda rd.

The area taken up by BMRCL for Lalbagh station is only to an extent of some 1300 sq.mtrs - negligible in comparison with the whole area of Lalbagh (some 230 acres).

As I mentioned on another thread, I think BMRCL has blindly accepted DMRC's DPR reports for the alignments without considering ground realities & do not seem to have made any adjustments to take care of sensitivities. Not much priority has been accorded to preservation of as much of the city's heritage as is possible - MG rd & Nanda rd are two glaring examples.

     Nanda road is too wonderful, and too important a road to be banned for vehicles. The real alternative lies 30ft on either side of Nanda road.

     All along the road, there is a 'park' till the service road, a width of abt 30ft ( or is it more??) both sides. Presently, there is only grass all around with a tree trown here and there, and walking tracks on some parts. The only utility of this grass is to reduce erosion of soil, where is little erosion. 

    Instead, why cant we allow BMRC to take off all the road-side trees and let them construct the metro. When BMRC is done with, we can have straight growing Ashoka trees planted on the edges of the road. The giant trees can be translocated to this 'park'. There is enough space in these parks to house double the number of trees on Nanda road.

Another possibility was suggested by prof Ashwin Mahesh during the big10 meet at IIM last month. The walking tracks in the park run all along the  2km road. they can also act as additional footpath to the pedestrians. further, during the consrtuction of metro, the BMRC/BBMP can even takeover the Nanda road footpath and hence augment the roadspace for the motorists.

   To put it differently, when you have a excellent wide road, with neat service road and ample land in between them, the possibilities are immense.  Lets make it a better road for all users, without 'any (long term)' damage to environment. 

 

-Srivatsava V

two wrongs don't make a right ; just because park space was previously encroached does not make it right now

No SY, I am not saying that using lalbagh land for metro is correct. Plz let me know if I said so. What I rather said was that this was not setting a bad precedent, and worse precedents have already been set to 'destroy/utilise' park land. 

   My grievenge against HU is not about registering protests; I am glad they are doing it. But their goal should not be to de-rail Metro, an eco-friendly development. Rather, their objective should be to use this an excuse/alibi to gain a good amount of land inside lalbagh, so that they can plant 190 or 1900 trees as replacement for 19 that have been felled.

      That is where I differ with bodies like HU/ Saldhan's group etc. Their objective should not be to stall projects. We have seen that the BBMP has been adament about carrying on with the planned widening. What have these organisations leant from their failures against the BBMP? Or are they in the belief that being a roadblock, delaying some of these widening, being considered as nuisance by BBMP/BMRC as their sucess?? I am afraid that its another group (HU) that is now failing to another project (Metro).

 

-Srivatsava V

Not saying that trees aren't important. I have been silent because I am lost. Part of me wants to say why are the greens late on this. The other part knows that unless you protest, perhaps BMRCL and government doesn't listen.

The reality may have been like this. BMRCL thought Kanakpura Road (with businesses around it) may see more litigations than Nanda Road (no houses or businesses around it). The hard truth is that we all want Metro like projects to happen one road away from our individual houses, not right next to our houses. CMH road is an example of that.

Anyway. Instead of forcing a stalemate here, can we convert the battle for trees into a war for forests? Does this green battle have to be so localized? Can we :make use" Metro's environmental hardships in another way?

• The total of 1300 trees that Metro's South alignment may impact (just heard this number from someone, may not be right, please don't pick on it), would offset about 60 tonnes of CO2 over 50 years. (roughly speaking)
• Can we demand equal offset initiatives elsewhere in the city?

Basically, can we force BMRCL to buy carbon credits sourced from within the city to make up for the lost Carbon offset due to impacted trees? Things like:

• Equivalent parks - Challaghatta Valley (an old dream of some of us), or Race Course area (soon to be vacated)
• A new green belt around Bangalore, locked for a few decades?
• Eco friendly material in building their stations
• Use of renewable energy to power their operating centers and stations.

Can't readily think of ideas for BMRC or state government to buy Carbon offsets, but there would be more. But the point I am making is this.

• If we force all projects to factor in the Carbon costs in their plans, the economics may make them consider the most "sustainbale" options. All this late stage chaos and battle for a tree here and another one there may get a little more managable.
• Like in this case, the cost of buying carbon offsets, either via carbon credits from open market, or via other actions that will create the offsets could make BMRCL think of realignment or other options.

Thinking out of the box and aloud, hope I made some sense.

@Srivtasava,

I think we have different approaches and thoughts , but one thing for sure is , this is a good space to debate and discuss:-) . You guys at Praja make me think and re-visit my positions and thoughts.

There have been various alternatives suggested to tree-cutting and suggestions about carbon offsets etc. And many of these may be suggestions which should be/will be taken up. Now if one thread in Praja can get so many thoughts and alternatives in, imagine the sort of solutions/ideas we would have got if we had public consultations? And its not just the number of ideas , its the fact that we are all deciding our future ourselves instead of someone else deciding for us.

At HU, we are not putting one solution ahead of another. Our stand is that we want them to have public consultations and then see if we can save Nanda Road and Lalbagh. When we do those consultations various thoughts will come up - some might say its ok to cut those trees as long as we replant elsewhere, some will say we cannot cut it , it impacts the micro-climate, some will say transplant the trees to the same locality on different roads etc.

We want them to follow the law in spirit too..not just letter:-) thats why we want them to hold public consultations. The Karnataka town and country planning act is a real good policy - it allows for public consultaions, it streamlines planning. Why cant they follow it for all urban projects? Not just metro - if they started folllowing it for all other projects too, we would have a better city right? That's why we are fighting to get the law implemented. just yesterday we gor response for an RTI from BDA  - they are saying they have no knowledge of whether BBMPs road widening project has followed planning norms, CDP etc.

As for the carbon offsets - its good, we need them to do it, but only when all other options are exhausted. Otherwise it will become like carbon credits trading - something which looks good on the surface but is really bad. With carbon credits, polluting industries continue to pollute while just buying carbon credits. Similalrly if carbon offsets are not carefully used, they will just go ahead and destroy much more, saying they will offset it elsewhere.

and for re-planting of trees - we offered to do a joint inspection with them of all the replanting they said they did, and they wouldnt committ!

Anyways, the key again is - consult the public. Once the method of governance is sorted out, all these various other issues get sorted out.

@naveen
I may be wrong and some blue-prints may have been shared. I still think we dont have all the data that needs to be out in public. I will however check and get back to you.

@all
we will in all probablities be organizing a public consultation for the Metro Southern reach soon . Will post the news on Praja and you guys can come and participate too. There are some really good ideas here which can be discussed in a wider forum.

Vinay,

You mentioned elsewhere about comfort for pedestrians under shady trees along pavements. I would add motorists also to this - I'm quite certain that they also enjoy shade along streets on which they drive, especially during hot climate. The benefits of trees in urban jungles is well established, no doubt & trees are always a welcome sight.

However, broken down, uneven sidewalks & tree roots obstructing walkways & spreading out to driveways or streets can pose risks to pedestrians & motorists alike. These huge, beautiful trees were planted several decades ago when these levels of growth & motorization were never anticipated.

Thus, some of them may need to be removed to ensure safety for all, unfortunate as it is. The only option is to plant new ones in place of old ones in a systematically planned manner, ensuring that they do not pose obstacles to pedestrians & road users alike in the future (learn from past mistakes !).

In cities such as Singapore, Al Ain & Dubai (UAE), greening has been done scientifically in such a manner that greenery stays well clear of pathways & driveways. Of course, these greening efforts are much more recent compared to Bangalore, & were much better planned on their much wider streets.

Whilst there is no doubt that we need to retain as many of our old trees as possible, large scale developments such as Metro are bound to uproot some of them.

I think it would be much wiser if we fought to ensure that alternate measures such as scientific planting of new trees is carried out & in much larger numbers for each tree that must be uprooted. Change & development cannot be halted. Sad as it is, some of our beloved trees will need to be removed.

BTW, the Metro website states that they have planted various types of trees in place of the ones being removed, but I was unable to find out locations where they had been planted. Does HU have any clue obout this ?