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'Safe Passage' - Meeting on Oct 2

30 September 2008 - 4:23pm — psaram42
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Pedestrian Infrastructure

[Promoted meeting plans to separate post {blr_editor}]

Srinath Heragu and myself whole heartedly support Benniganahalli junction pedestrian crossing initiative, taken up by CKannan.

Srinath is having a similar issue in HAL Airport Road area. On my part I am interested in concentrating on a particular Bangalore Corridor, cutting across whole of Bangalore, to be decided in consultation with ACP Mr. Praveen Sood as suggested by him in the meeting held on September 20, 2008.
We two would like to Invite Mr. CKannan to meet up with us, as early as possible. I have written to CKannan by email to know whether October 2 would be convenient to him. Tentatively the proposal is to have the meeting at my place.
  • Date October 2, 2008
  • Time 10:00 Hrs
  • Place "Asha Kiran", 1669, 9th main, HAL III stage, Bangalore 560075. 
  • Contact No- 080-4126-9814; 98440-01591.
  • Land mark-1 Indiranagar BSNL Telephone exchange on 80 ft road,
  • Land Mark-2 Friends Bakery, on 80 ft road, 9th main Junction corner.
If not convenient CK may kindly indicate his choice. We will be glad to meet at his convenience. Any other Praja Members are also welcome to join. Kindly Indicate.

The agenda is to plan more on 'Safe pedestrian' project with sharp focus on Benniganahalli area, as suggested by admin. The same could be carried forward to similar projects later on. Once the meeting date time and venue are fixed we will create the event as suggested, so that many could join.

The staggered crossing concept is good to take forward. To solve similar crossing problems we should consider the three options in the correct order, on "cost to benefit" basis.

1.       Staggered Crossing with Island
2.       Magic box Under pass
3.       Sky Walk
 
Allowing advertising space for maintenance revenue should be OK.

 

ಪ್ರತಿಕ್ರಿಯೆಗಳು

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Meeting on 2nd Oct

CKannan - 1 Oct 2008 - 9:37am
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I, Ananthram and Srinath are meeting at Anantharams residence as mentioned above. Praja's are invited to join. Those who could not are invited to join the action plan meeting shortly and all are invited. Date time and place will be posted here. CKannan
CKannan
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unable to join due to short notice

silkboard - 2 Oct 2008 - 1:40am
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But do keep us posted on how this meeting went. All the best!

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'Safe Passage' - Meeting on Oct 2 propsed Agenda

psaram42 - 2 Oct 2008 - 9:30am
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'Safe Passage' - Meeting on Oct 2
 Agenda
To discuss the Plan of action on the following propsed lines , and finalise a suitable plan of action after discussions.
 
1.        Safe Passage project is for Pedestrians to cross Roads in heavy traffic zones in Benniganahalli KR Puram Area a initiative taken up by Mr. Chandrasekar K
2.        Signature Campaign to collect 2 lack signatures
a.        20 community leaders to be identified
b.       Each Community to have local leaders
c.        The communities will be classified in to
                                                               i.      Students,
                                                              ii.      Office Going
                                                            iii.      Senior Citizens
                                                            iv.      General Public
                                                             v.      Etc
3.        Consolidate the Praja knowledge on what is happening in BBMP with issue of pedestrian safety  in general and pedestrian crossing in particular
4.        Home on to what appears to be the approach of BBMP and Traffic Police on the issue.
a.        Sky walk Tenders being repeated since 2007.
b.       Zebra Markings
c.        Traffic Lights
d.       Enforcement
e.        Etc.
5.        Evolve the Pedestrian crossings Options for the KRP Area  vis a vis
a.        Zebra No refuge
b.       Zebra with Refuge
c.        Magic Box Under pass
d.       Sky Walk
6.        Evolve a consolidated KRP Area requirement
7.        Chalk out Calendar of events
a.        Meetings with BBMP
b.       Meetings with Traffic Police
c.        Meetings With Water Board
d.       Meetings with Electricity Bioard
e.        Etc
8.        Mile Stones
a.        Communities leaders Identified
b.       Signatures Campaign starts
c.        Signatures at 1 Lack mark
d.       Consolidated requirement ready
e.        Contacts established with Civic Authorities
f.         Requirements Accepted by BBMP
g.       Execution Methodology Worked Out
h.       Start Tracking Execution
i.         End
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Minutes of meeting

CKannan - 2 Oct 2008 - 2:37pm
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Meeting with Anantharam and Srinath was of immense value for the stand they have taken towards providing Safe passage for pedestrians. 3hours and 30 minutes of meeting caused the following a) Photo of these proposed area are to be taken (Site visited by Anatharam and Srinath) and a presentation to be ready in 3 days. Responsibility - CKannan b) Meeting of the community leaders will happen on finalising the place of meeting - 2 days - CKannan c) Presentation of the campaign and the delegation of work on the day of meeting - CKannan, Anatharam and Srinath. d) Approaching Federation of Chamber of Commerece for support - Anantharam e) Media support to be handled by Mr. Srinath f) Sponsor for the campaign support - CKannan g) Details of design and need praja will contribute. h) Emphasise BBMP to take the approval of Praja for the design of subway or skywalk CKannan
CKannan
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Meeting Notes

psaram42 - 2 Oct 2008 - 7:50pm
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The meeting started at 10 AM as scheduled at my place. Chandrasekar K and Srinath Heragu arrived in time without any problem of locating the place.

Signature Campaign

Mr. Chandrasekar explained his signature campaign in detail. It looks like that he can get signatures in numbers well exceeding the 2 Lack mark.

He displayed a well drafted Performa designed by him for the student community. He has different sets of forms for the people staying in Apartments, independent houses etc, in different localities of KR Puram area. The people targeted are above 8 years of age, in various categories of Students, house wives, working people and senior citizens. He explained the strategy of getting these Performa about 20,000 or more printed, distributed and signatures obtained by a volunteer’s scheme. The Performa containing sponsors ads will be printed by the sponsors at their cost.

We were impressed to a great extent by the strategy adopted and the through execution planning by Mr. Chandrasekar. He has already identified about 20 community leaders. These leaders are working to identify their 10x10x10 leaders in turn. Each of those in the bottom of the rung will be given 10 forms. Thus a well thought out network can get the 2, 00,000 proforma with details filled up and signed. Mr. Chandrasekar has a workable dead line of Nov 25, 2008 by which time he would be ready with the signatures mobilized. His plan is to organize a meeting in one conference hall rented for the purpose in his area.

We next started our inspection of the project area. All three of us went on the old madras road by car and stopped at the under bridge at Old Madras Road Nagavar Palya road junction. (See map)

Under pass #1


View Larger Map

 

There should be a bus bay at this junction. We should take immediate steps to see that the bus drivers are instructed by the concerned authorities for adherence, to bus bays. Follow "BEST" practices!

Under Pass #2

This is at the HP Petrol pump. Again a underpass only is suitable. The length of the underpass is more here as it has to span 5 lane traffic. A big Refuge bay requires to be designed at the center, with a connection to the Under pass. This refuge should have safety railings. A big bus bay area has to be marked alogside the refuge. Again a campaign to train all drivers of busses both local and outstation busses (Govt+Private) is to be undertaken, for this location. The busses should que here one behind other in an orderly straight line. Follow BEST practices!

Zebra Cross #1

This is at KR Puram Railway Station

Here it is possible to have Zebra crossing with Refuge under the bridge above at the center. It is possible to have Traffic signal at both the segments. This is a very good example of an ideal Zebra crossing, with a central refuge.

Under pass #3

This is at ITI Sports center.

After completing the KR Puram Trip we returned to my place. The action plan was discussed further. We requested Mr. Chandrasekhar to get a photo session done up of the 4 locations, along with getting his presentation slides done up.

 Mr. Chandrasekars Minutes in the post above Capures all the points needed precisely

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Impressive commitment!

murali772 - 2 Oct 2008 - 6:17pm
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Impressive commitment , folks! Keep it up! Looking forward to seeing the presentation.  BTW, can I presume C Kannan and Chandrasekhar are the same person?

Muralidhar Rao

Muralidhar Rao
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CKannan is Chandrasekar

psaram42 - 2 Oct 2008 - 6:49pm
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Murali sir. yes they are same.

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Safe Passage - Pedestrian Underpasses

ssheragu - 2 Oct 2008 - 7:12pm
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ssheragu Meeting started on schedule at 10-00 a.m. on October 2, 2008 in Mr. Anantharan's Residence Nice meeeting Anantharam & Kannan for the first time Thanks Mr. Anantharam for his hospitality Discussions During meeting 1. Kannan to photograph the areas & prepare slides 2. Slides for presentation to be prepared by Kannan and to be discussed with Ananthram and Srinath & finalized 3. Meeting with Community Leaders (Leaders identified by Kannan)to be arranged and presentation to be discussed 4. Community leaders to collect 2 lakhs signatures 5. Ananatharam to arrange meeting with FKCCI for presentation 6. Presentation to be made to FKCCI 7. Signatures to be submitted by Novembet 25, 2008 8. Four underpasses required Beninganahalli 9. Same model to be replicated for HAL area Views Emerged During Meeting 1. FKCCI helpful as it can bring all agencies for presentation 2. Staggered crossings only for shopping areas where there is slow moving traffic 3. Pedestrain underpasses must for arterial roads, busy thoroughfares etc. 4. Pedestrian Underapsses to ensure that there are no hawkers polluting the underpasses and there is no fire hazard, stampede hazard in the underpasses and that in the underpasses there is no water clogging during rains 5. Stampede hazard can be avoided by making the entry & exit to the underpasses or the mouths of the underpasses wider than the underpasses Visits Made 1. Old Madras Road (Beninganahalli, Tin factory, KR Puram railway station) 2. Airport Road (HAL Establishments) Thanks Srinath Heragu
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Quick fix pedestrian crossing

CKannan - 2 Oct 2008 - 8:55pm
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Go thru the blog Magic for pedestrian. Praja can suggest is it viable for our sites. CKannan
CKannan
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Magic Box for Pedestrian Crossings

psaram42 - 2 Oct 2008 - 10:03pm
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This is a simple and ancient Technology applied to create a horizontal passage for under pass road application. I call it a simple well known technology of ancient times because any civil engineer knows about the circular reinforced concrete rings used for the construction of water wells. The circular reinforced rings are made on road sides if you look for it, you will get the place.

Now the same method applied to our under pass application requires rectangular reinforced concrete blocks (rings). These are pre-cast in vendor place to any bodies order and kept ready. You can give the orders for these at the same place where you get the round rings. The construction of under pass requires (1) digging up of road, (2) place the pre-cast block, (3) Close on top. Repeat the operation block by block till whole Road width is covered. This can be completed in one day (24 hrs) as done in Hebbal Police Station area, as reported by TOI. The link is given here:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Subway_magic_created_in_24_hrs_/articleshow/3538541.cms

One has to take these Press Reports with a pinch of salt, because they are written with the sole purpose of selling their paper. Only thing to remember is that there can be unknown problems like hidden water, sanitary, Telephone, High tension wire lines etc. One has to check with all departments concerned before hand. If there are no such problems one is lucky.

This technology as you can see is viable 100% for our application Chandrasekhar.

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A movement for vehicles or people

asj - 2 Oct 2008 - 10:52pm
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I hope I am not misunderstood. Equally I am not surprised that generally there is a tilt towards underpasses rather than staggered crossings. I would prefer staggered crossings on all locations or along the stretch. If the underpasses are without stairlifts, lifts, elevators (all costly prospects espescially if we consider maintainance) - how are the elderly, infirm and disabled to use them? Will there be a signal controlled provision along with the underpasses? Being a medic, I have worked with those affected with paralysis, parkinsons, sensory deficits (blindness) etc. Try sitting on a wheelchair and push it up a ramp (however gentle the gradient) or control it as it runs down a slope. Try visualising someone on crutches going up/down the stairs. Are we building cities for vehicles or people? Safe Passage is a great initiative for the pedestrians - so thinking of the pedestrians (of all kinds) is a priority (cars, vehicles come later). I have moved a lot around London, I can't think of more than 2 or 3 pedestrian subways (other than those leading to underground network). This is a fantastic opportunity to enforce a paradigm shift in thinking - I plead that we do not dilute the campaign. Nothing I say is to discount the work undertaken and done so far, I am just hoping and wishing for a bolder step from our end. Best wishes, ASJ

www.driving-india.blogspot.com

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Two threads on same topic - but here is a solution

asj - 3 Oct 2008 - 1:18pm
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Hi! C Kannan has justified need for pedestrian subways on the original thread. The main reason I note is thousands crossing the road during peak time. While on the face, this is reasonable, we only need to look at stations in Mumbai and busy innner cities elsewhere in the world. Oxford street or Picadilly in London and CST (VT) and Churchgate in Mumbai will have comparable pedestrians (if not more). Mumbai has subways at both the above junctions, none are disabled friendly, thus on street (at grade) crossing's are still needed and still used by thousands along with the subway. The solution is to have both - subway strictly to be used by fit and healthy while a push button operated signal controlled crossing for disabled. As disabled are a fraction of overall pedestrians, vehicles can enjoy a free flow when no disabled or elderly are hoping to cross. ASJ

www.driving-india.blogspot.com

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Place for meeting and Date

CKannan - 3 Oct 2008 - 6:57pm
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Place of Meeting Greater Bangalore Industrial Association Conference hall #40-J Opp. N.G.E.F Acillary Estate, Doddanekundi Industrial Area, 2nd Phase, Mahadevapura Post, Bangalore - 560 048. on Saturday 11th Oct 2008 at 3.00pm. All Community leaders on the praja are invited for the same. CKannan
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A very good solution indeed, Thanks Doc.

psaram42 - 4 Oct 2008 - 11:42am
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Hi Doc, The solution to have both - subway and a push button operated signal controlled crossing for disabled is well tested over time in big cities like Mumbai and other cities abroad, as indicated by you. As such we should not be having any problem in implementing the same, at KR Puram Area in Bangalore. This gives us an opportunity to put the staggered crossing with barricaded Refuges immediately, at all the four places. Simultaneously we will plan and put the subways in a phased manner where ever absolutely necessary. We will also campaign for orderly passage at these locations through the joint co operation of the public using the transport, on the one hand and the providers of the same, on the other. Thanks ones again! Ananthram PS
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Acknowledgement

CKannan - 4 Oct 2008 - 5:28pm
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I acknowledge ASJ's Suggestion of having both the Subway for the healthy and push button operated signal for the disabled. This is fore thought of what is required, looking beyond the ordinary. We require more inputs from praja to take this to next level. I invite every body to Come and play this game........ CKannan
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(No subject)

psaram42 - 4 Oct 2008 - 8:30pm
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underasses / subways

ssheragu - 4 Oct 2008 - 9:56pm
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ssheragu the very purpose of an underpass or subway is to make sure that the traffic or the pedestrians do not slow down or halt for one another. this is very much required in an arterial road or an expressway or a road which serves as an exit out of the city; so I still feel that the idea of staggered crossings will not be a solution for such types of roads. this will be a viable solution only in a shopping area. however this can be debated thanks Srinath Heragu
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Dr.ASJ has a very valid point

s_yajaman - 5 Oct 2008 - 8:14am
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Srinath, All that Dr.ASJ says is that a facility for differently abled people must be made. These will be pedestrian operated signals. Consider two scenarios a. Insignificant number of differently abled people - in this case, the signal will be operated maybe a few times a day and traffic is not affected much. b. Significant number of differently abled people - the facility is needed. I think it was MK Gandhi who said that a society should be judged in the manner in which it treats its animals. I think a city needs to be judged in the way it treats its pedestrians, children, the elderly and the differently abled. Bangalore scores close to 0/10 on that.

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

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Lets not confuse freeways with city roads

asj - 5 Oct 2008 - 9:55pm
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Freeways, highways, motorways, expressways - call them whatever one wants - these are all examples of wide dual carriage ways (grade separated) that connect cities. In between there is no habitation, hence these highways do not need footpaths, indded pedestrians are taken out of the equation here completely (and are illegal, as are cyclists). Rarely when a motorway cuts through the heart of a village, you will have underpasses / footbridges. A well planned city will never have a highway going through its belly. Usually there will be slip roads that take one out of the city to connect to the expressway. In contrast, even it may well be NH4 we are dealing with, its within city, full of pedestrians and it is only apprpriate to ensure pedestrian crossings for all range of abilities. In fact not doing so is likely to be illegal as India too signs up to UN Human rights charter where equality and dignity of an individual cannot be undermined. In Western countries, one cannot open a commercial or public facility without access to disabled (from parking to entry/exit/toilets). Finally, driving within a city is always and will always be fraught with cross roads, T junctions, pedestrians .... it is only time we give up on unrealistic dreams of being able to move traffic continuously. Everything I suggest here applies even more so with the 56 magic (or not) subways, in fact many will be at junctions and as I have attempted to show within that thread, it is rather futile trying separate pedestrians - as they can be given access within a normal cycle of traffic lights which would be needed to regulate vehicluar traffic anyway. This is an opportunity for us to set things right, get the correct infrastructure in place (including street furniture), not just on the given road in consideration on this thread, but across all of the city. May Bangalore show the rest of the Nation how its done. ASJ

www.driving-india.blogspot.com

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Other options for the disabled

n - 7 Oct 2008 - 2:58am
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Some other options for the disabled than at-grade, traffic-interrupted crossing (some king-of-road drivers may not stop or screech to a halt, traffic sense being what it is) are: 1) Provide ramp with gentle slope and grab rails - the person on the wheelchair can pull themselves up the slope or can be pushed by another person. If the existing slope is steep, switchbacks (similar to roads in steep terrains) can be provided. 2) A small elevator (power connection from the nearest street light pole) can be used by the wheelchair-bound people. I have seen both types (not at subways) and have in fact put it to good use for elderly people.

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On confusing freeway to city roads

psaram42 - 7 Oct 2008 - 11:23am
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Hi Doc,

It took me several reads of your post on confusing city road with freeways to understand what you were articulating.

“A well planned city will never have a highway going through its belly. Usually there will be slip roads that take one out of the city to connect to the expressway.”

For example if Bangalore was to be on the NH4 straight line between let us say Mumbai and Chennai, how can we (well) plan Bangalore city? That was my problem. 

We would on the other hand visualize the NH4 was no different than a normal city road with abnormal traffic! Doc there is or was no confusion between free way and city roads at any time. The way is free when going in wilderness and it is a city road when it happens to be going through a city. Providing by passes would be a separate project perhaps. The ring roads are perhaps the solutions for such issues in a limited sense.

Our Plan in this thread is in fact that of a pilot project, to be duplicated by other groups in Bangalore Praja later, if successful. Yes our plan is to get correct infrastucture in entire Bangalore ie BBMP area.

Thanks a lot for the really thought provoking post.

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On pedestrian refuges

idontspam - 7 Oct 2008 - 12:34pm
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Observation in Stockholm -> Even a 30ft 2 lane road has a 4ft pedestrian refuge. The refuge doubles up to host signboards and signals. I see these refuges on literally EVERY street. If it is a major throughfare (I havent yet seen anything larger than 4 lanes) in the city the refuge is larger and some places it is staggered. Where the roads are nonstop or arterial they have subways. Usually all underground T stations have entrances to all sides of surrounding roads so they act as subways as well. I will try to get a picture.
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Freeways are Freeways and City Roads are City Roads

asj - 8 Oct 2008 - 1:44pm
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This comment has been moved here.

www.driving-india.blogspot.com

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Safe Passage - Excellent Discussions

Naveen - 13 Oct 2008 - 4:24pm
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Hi psaram42, asj & others,

This is a terrific debate - & thanks for exploring all of several possibilities.

The priorities in India need to change completely, particularly in urban areas such as the larger cities. We build roads & other related infrastructure primarily to cater to quicker movement for cars & other road traffic, ignoring & in fact endangering pedestrians & bicylists. In the west & in almost all other parts of asia, all road development accords equal, if not higher priority for movement of pedestrians & bicylists, right from the planning /blueprint & building stages itself.

As I see it, unless the prevalent mindset undergoes a complete turnaround, we will be saddled with the same problems for pedestrians & efforts made thus far have been, sort of "reactionary", after the error had been realized ! Providing solutions are not easy in most cases now, as possible & available means had already been squandered with the construction of the underpass or flyover with no provisions in place for the various types of users.

I am sure we all agree with this - & need to push real hard & strong to plan for this right from inception for all future developments, as also to repair the costly errors of the past, however cumbersome or expensive they might be.

 

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