This shocking, yet at some level encouraging, tale is reported by a friend who knows Sugata Chatterjee the rapporteur of this shocker...Boohoo to ramsene and ... their ilk. Down with obscuranist politicians and moral police, 3 cheers to sugata Chatterjee for standing up.
Millionaire slumdogs and how things change.... Yes, everything changes.
The fantastic invisible sweep of time rushes and roars past us every dull and intense second that ticks relentlessly away every day, and all around us things constantly morph. Twin towers crumble, good people die, the good earth turns brown and bare, and old love fades.
And what precisely is your role in the incredible kaleidoscope of change?
A slack-jaw by-stander who barely registers the impact and implications? A commentator spectator who freely critiques but somehow rises above being affected by it all? A fatalist loser who bemoans everything and blames it all on circumstances and other people?
Look around you, you who reside in the so-called mind and knowledge capital of the shining new India. This is Bangalore.
Many of the quiet avenues that used to snake through the wooded shades and fragrant flower-scatters of a thousand gulmohars, flames of the forest, bougenvillias and silver oaks are now shorn of even a single blade of grass, their tar guts upturned by mammoth earth moving equipment, tortured sites full of grime, steel and concrete through which an endless procession of loud vehicles crawl back and forth, utterly indisciplined, frothing with impotent anger and frustration, from the early dusty dawns to the midnight hours, every single day.
We are the victims, you say? The civic governance of Bangalore is sub standard, you claim? Well, you may be right, but does that mean that even as an individual citizen whose real powers to influence matters is way less than what it theoretically should be, we have absolutely nothing to do?
I am re-thinking this premise, my friend. Unfortunately not a self realization case, but prompted by a black incident last Friday, 6th February, 2009. And this time it was not about aspects that affect your life and mine indirectly. It wasn't the death of yet another 100+ year old tree. It wasn't another instance of criminal neglect of any civic infrastructure. It wasn't road rage. It was a kick in the groin. Literally. And it woke me up all right.
So, in brief, this is how the drama unfolded:
A few of my friends and I were just paying our bills and coming out of our regular Friday night watering hole and dinner place in Rest House Road, just off Brigade Road, and most of the women in the company were already standing outside. Some of us outside were smoking, people were happy, there was laughter and jokes, as there were many other people in the street, all coming out, satiated, in the closing hour of the various pubs and restaurants around.
Suddenly from up the street a massive SUV comes revving and speeding, hurtling down, and stops in a scream of brakes and swirling dust, millimeters away from this group of 4 women, barely missing one of their legs. A white Audi, imported, still under transfer, with the registration plate of KA-51 TR-2767. Some millionaire' s toy thing, that in the wrong hands can kill.
Naturally the women are in shock. And quickly following the shock comes indignation. These are self made women running their own businesses, managing state responsibilities for global NGO firms, successful doctors. They are not used to being bullied. So they turn around, instead of shrinking back in fear. They protest.
And as soon as they turn around in protest, the car doors are flung open, and a stream of 4-5 rabid men run out towards these women, screaming obscenities in Hindi and Kannada against women in general, fists flailing. Some of us who came in running at the sound of the screaming brakes now stand in the middle in defense of our women, and then blows start raining down. One of the goons make a couple of calls over the cellphone, and in seconds a stream of other equally rabid goondas land up. They gun straight for the women, and everyone – a few well-meaning bystanders, acquaintances who know us from the restaurant, basically everyone who tries to help the women – starts getting thoroughly beaten up.
Women are kicked in the groin, punched in the stomach, slapped across the face, grabbed everywhere, abused constantly. Men are smashed up professionally, blows aimed at livers, groins, kidneys and nose. A friend is hit repeatedly on the head by a stone until he passes out in a flood of blood.
A plain-clothes policeman (Vittal Kumar) who saunters in late stands by watching and urging people to stop, but doing absolutely nothing else. A 'cheetah' biker cop comes in, with our women pleading him to stop this madness, but he refuses action, saying a police van will come in soon and he cannot do anything. Everyone keeps getting hammered. Relentlessly.
The carnage continues for over 20 minutes.
Finally when the police van does come in it is this vandals who are raging and ranting, claiming to be true "sons of the Kannadiga soil", and we are positioned to be the villainous outsiders, bleeding, outraged. How do the cops believe them, especially seeing the bloody faces of our men and the violated rage of our women, while they carry nary a scratch on their bodies? Don't ask me! Yet, it is us who these goondas urge the newly arrived law-keepers to arrest, and the police promptly comply, and we are bundled into the van, some still being beaten as we are pushed in. Some blessed relief from pain inside the police van at least, even if we are inside and the real goons outside, driving alongside in their spanking white Audi. The guy who was hit by the stone is taken separately by the women to Mallya hospital.
Inside the police station at Cubbon Park it becomes clear that these goons and the police know each other by their first names. The policeman in charge (Thimmappa) initially refuses to even register any complaint from me, on the purported grounds that I am not fluent in Kannada and I have taken a few drinks (3 Kingfisher pints, to be precise) over the evening. No, it doesn't matter that I didn't have my car and was not driving, and no, it doesn't mater that the complaint will be written in English. We watch them and the goons exchange smiles and nods with our our bloodied and swelling eyes and realize in our pain-clouded still-in-shock brains the extent of truth in the claim of one of the main goons when he claimed earlier in the evening in virulent aggression: we own this town, this car belongs to an MLA, we will see how you return to this street!!
This was the turning point of the saga, I guess. For we refused to lie down quietly and be victims.
One of our girls, a vintage and proud Bangalorean who is running one of the town's most successful organic farming initiatives, took upon herself to write the complaint, when I was not allowed to write the same. Another Bangalore girl, a state director of a global NGO firm, wrote the other molestation complaint separately on behalf of all the girls. Some of us called our friends in the media and corporate world. Everyone stepped up. And even when the odds were down and we were out, we did not give up, and as a singular body of violated citizens we spoke in one voice of courage and indomitable spirit. That voice had no limitation of language, not Kannada, nor English, or Hindi. It was the voice of human spirit that cannot be broken.
And in the face of that spirit, for the first time, we saw the ugly visage of vandalism, hiding behind the thin and inadequate veil of political corrupt power, narrow-vision regionalism and self-serving morality, start to wilt.
We spent 6 hours next day in the police station. The sub-inspector of police who filed our FIR, Ajay R M, seemed a breath of fresh air inasmuch that he did not appear a-priori biased like others, even though the hand of corruption and politico-criminal power backing these goons was still manifest in many ways: a starched, white-linen power-broker walked in handing over his card to the sub-inspector in support of the goons; the goons got an audience with the Inspector because of this intervention, while we had to interact one level lower down in the hierarchy; the plains cloth policeman of last night, even though he had arrived far too late in the crime scene, gave a warped statement, passing it off as a "neutral" point of view, repeatedly stressing that we came out of a pub and hence were drinking, positioning this as a 'drunken brawl', while completely forgetting to mention the unprovoked attack against the women and the one-sided vandalism and violence that ensued. I guess one cannot blame the low ranked police officer – the criminal connections of these goons must be pervasive enough for him to be careful.
Thanks however to the impartial handling of the situation by Ajay, soon the goons were all identified. The lead actor was one Ravi Mallaya (38), a real estate honcho and owner of a small property off Brigade Road which he has converted into a "gaming" (you know what that means, don't you?) adda. The others identified are Mohan Basava (22) of Chamarajapet 12th Cross, R. Vijay Kumar Ramalingaraju (25) and Shivu Rajashekar (20). All are residents of 12th & 13th Cross in Vyalikaval. Their bravado and machismo were by that time evaporated. It was good to see their faces then.
Of course nothing much happened to them, nor did we expect it. They were supposed to be in lock up for at least the weekend till they were produced in court, but we understand that they were quickly released on (anticipatory? ) bail. The car, purportedly belonging to an MLA, also does not figure in the FIR, apparently for reasons of "irrelevance to the case".The media also have given us fantastic coverage and support so far, strengthening the cause.
The goons meanwhile, as an after thought, also filed the customary reverse complaint on the morning after we filed our own complaint: the women have apparently scratched the car! (Why did they not file the complaint the same night, considering they came to the Police Station in the same car? Why was the car allowed to be taken off police custody? Why is the car still irrelevant to the case and not in the FIR? Questions.. questions..) .
Is this the end of this saga? Probably not. Are these women, more precious to us as friends and wives than most things in our lives, safe to walk or drive down Brigade Road from now on or are the goonda elements, slighted by this arrest and disgrace, are lying in ambush, waiting, biding their time to cause some of us more grievous harm? We don't know. Is there reason for us to remain apprehensive of future attacks and victimization? Perhaps.
But here is the point.
We stood up.
We believed in the power of individual citizens even in the face of hooliganism, intolerance, corruption and power mongering. Even though many of us have the option of leveraging political or government connections, we deliberately chose to fight this battle as individuals. Sure, these connections have been activated and they have been kept informed, should the worst case scenario unfold tomorrow. But we have chosen to not leverage them. And in every small win we register as a group of individual outraged citizens of Bangalore and India, however insignificant these milestones may be in the larger scheme of things, there is one small notch adding up in favor of what is right, one small notch against what is wrong. And we believe that every such small notch counts, each such mark is absolutely invaluable.
It is the people who make this city, this country, this world. It is you and I, as much as the terrorists inside and outside. And in our small insignificant little ways, it is my responsibility and yours to not shirk from investing effort – not just lip service or any token attempt, but real effort – in backing up what we ourselves believe in. It is so easy to logically argue that everything is corrupt, nothing is worth it, there are so many risks involved. We must not fall trap to this escapist trend. We must not fail to try.
Next time you feel outraged, violated, abused, don't let it go by and add up to your list of litanies and complaints. Stand up and take it to the limit - at least your own limit. Not in the same way as they wrong you, but in the way that every citizen, at least in theory, is entitled to complain and protest. Do not let the hooligans power rant scare you or prompt you into submission. Do not allow the corrupt cop make you give up trying. Carry the flame forward. Try harder.
If are up to it, start right now.
Forward this note to everyone you want to be made aware of this. Post it in your own blogs. Talk about it amongst your circles. And if anyone of you should like to step forward with a word of empathy or advise, talk to me. Comment.
It is not Bangalore that is going to the dogs. It is us. We have far too long become accustomed to let everything go. And the more we let things go without any protest or fight, the dormant criminal and dark elements of the society get that much more encouraged. Every time we turn the other way, the hooligan next street gets incentivized to push the boundary a little further, provoke a little more, try something a little more atrocious. It is time for us to refuse to let this go on. We are responsible for making ourselves proud. Lets believe in ourselves. We can do this.
My name is Saugata Chatterjee. And I am standing up. I refuse to let Bangalore go to the hooligan slumdogs, even if some of them are pets of corrupt power millionaires.
Any of us could be faced with these situations. The only way out is to bring on relentless presssure on the politicos to do their job of maintaining law & order.
Muralidhar Rao
ಈ Blog entry ಅನ್ನು ಸ್ನೇಹಿತರಿಗೆ ಕಳಿಸಿ
ಪ್ರತಿಕ್ರಿಯೆಗಳು
"It is not Bangalore that is
No wonder our country is still struggling
Expect some brilliant comments on 'excessive liberalism' and how we need to 'guard against it', though 'violence is not supported'.
Follow Neelam Katara's example
These small time goons cannot be spared. FIR should be registered and action should be taken.
NDTV got in touch
NDTV got in touch with us to do a follow up on incident mentioned in this post. We have put them in touch with the contacts we have. Hope they cover this well, and in a "blind" fashion - law comes first, all things and justifications, valid or unjust or whatever, come later.
Mangalore type attacks on women in BLR
Visuals on NDTV news
Visuals of this blog are being shown on NDTV news currently as part of the report by Ms Maya Sharma
Muralidhar Rao
I saw it on NDTV 24x7, too
Abetment of crime
On Monday, two of the victims, along with their supporters who have come under the banner of Fearless Karnataka, staged a protest in front of the City Police Commissioner’s office seeking protection for women besides demanding that section 354 of the Indian Penal Code be used effectively.
Police Commissioner Shankar Bidari says that had the women noted down the number of their attackers’ bikes, the cases could have been solved.
For the full report, click on: http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=None+noted+down+bike+numbers:++Bidari&artid=nhUnnAWbW/o=&SectionID=Qz/kHVp9tEs=&MainSectionID=wIcBMLGbUJI=&SectionName=UOaHCPTTmuP3XGzZRCAUTQ==&SEO=
Now, a large percentage of the Bangalore's vehicle population displays registration numbers only in Kannada (check - http://praja.in/discuss/2008/04/kannada-license-plate-numbers-increase). And, very likely the vehicles involved in these skirmishes were amongst them. Now, even if Mr Bidari were to say that the citizens of Bangalore should bother to learn to read Kannada (including the numerals, which incidentally, even many cops can't) before stepping onto the city roads, is he also going to say that visitors from outside the state should also bother to learn Kannada before visiting Bangalore? The goons are not going to be differentiating between Bangaloreans and visitors from other states. If the attack had been targeted at any of them, how could they have noted down the numbers?
The M V Act is very clear about display of registration numbers. But, the ploice is loathe to enforcing it. Isn't it tantamount to abetment of the crime? Ok, if that's too grave a charge, it's in the minimum, dereliction of duty, of course!
Muralidhar Rao
License Plate Numbers in Local languages
I think the issue raised above about license plate numbers being displayed in kannada is not so simple. If all states decide to enforce it together or sections of the MV act are amended to facilitate display of vehicle regn ids in both (english & arabic numerals + local language), some progress may be acheived at standardization across the country.
In Mumbai, another cosmopolitan city, it is common to see plates in Marathi. In Chennai, vehicles sport regn ids in tamil & in Kerala, one can sight numbers in malayalam, not to mention road signs & directions also that are displayed in the local language that cannot be read or understood by outsiders. In Orissa, Bengal & Gujarat, it's no different.
If one wants to change this, it cannot be done in isolation in karnataka alone since other states also do not enforce it. Thus, I think this is a "pan-indian" subject & can only be dealt with by the central govt. Asking the local police to enforce this only in bangalore or within karnataka where the majority still read & speak kannada whilst it is not being enforced in so many other parts of the country that have similar demographics does not seem correctly placed.
the agenda!
Mr. Murali,
I think there's this clear agenda you'd posted this blog originally - and that was to re-start this logically concluded discussion about numbers and number plates. Well, I would like to first congratulate Naveen here for his logical remarks in this regard. Second, I insist that Murali take a look at the various number plate schemes being followed in many other non-english speaking countries - perhaps some of the asian countries are best fitting examples of such occurance. Malaysia for example has all its number plates in its own script. In fact in Nepal, the letters actually represent the names of their places when spelt in Nepalese itself. Unlike in Karnataka - where K & A are written in Kannada script, but it could actually be ಕ.ರ್ನಾ when written in the Kannada script.. Makes reading Kannada names easier on number plates. Something similar can be found on number plates of all TN vehicles - if you've noticed i.e.
And coming to your allegation about many cops being unable to read Kannada numerals themselves, I think that is indeed stuff that you can approach the police dept. with - why in the world are such cops being hired in Karnataka in the first place? It is mandatory that they be able to read and write Kannada letters/numerals fluently. If your allegation can indeed hold water, presenting all such cases of inefficiency in the PDept. is what responsible Praje should be doing.
Getting back to basics here, I wonder why Mr. Murali repeatedly keeps raising the same topic of number plates in Kannada and relates this stuff with almost everything that has to do with vehicles and roads! It is commonsense to think that the inability (to read Kannada characters) of a particular segment of people in a Kannada speaking society is an exception by itself - and calls for correction - not the system instead. If there's a problem with reading Kannada characters, as responsbile Praje, let us unite towards the cause of educating this segment of society about Kannada characters. Or if there's a technical problem with the characters, let us, as good citizens of KAR, strive to improve the raster quality of these characters on number plates. Let us put this on our agenda and make Kannada number plates "possible".. and not succumb to myopic citations upholding limitations of a section of a society that may be failing in its duties as citizens of Karnataka and continuing to not recognize the characters of the official language of the state.
Besides, there's always reason to rest assured - for, nothing being discussed here precludes English characters being printed on these plates. (Please note, with an intention to limit scope of this debate, I am not contesting the possibility of those ladies being unable to recognize any character here because of their inebriated state!)
-Nijavaada
most surprising!
Naveen - This comment coming from you is indeed surprising, to say the least! The very statement by Mr Bidari that "had the women noted down the number of their attackers’ bikes, the cases could have been solved" signifies the importance of number plates in crime detection. And, vehicles are invariably associated with crimes in some way or the other.
And, I am talking of vehicles with number plates in "Kannada only". It doesn't require any survey to establish that the public in general, including the semi-literate lot, would be able to read and mentally capture number boards in 'English/ Arabic' far better than in Kannada or any other language, particularly with there being no standards for them in these languages. As such, this should be a 'zero tolerance' matter. And, if the police makes up its mind, it can be enforced in days; may be a maximum of a month. And, it's very much within their jurisdiction.
Also, the people who are displaying "Only Kannada" number plates are not doing it for the benefit of the Kannadiga's. Many of them are upto some kind of a mischief or the other - check
http://praja.in/discuss/2008/04/kannada-license-plate-numbers-increase#comment-2857
. From mischief, it can very well lead to terrorism, if left unchecked. After all, even the Taliban and LeT (of Pakistan) started off not too different from the likes of our own Ram Sene'.
And, the remaining are plain language chauvinists. And, these are the types that Karnataka needs 'rakshane' from than anyone else.
That the authorities in other states are also not enforcing it cannot be a valid reason. Karnataka, and Bangalore particularly, has to set the standards, and the standards have to address security concerns and not the limited interests of language chauvinists.
Also, tell me - If an auto/ taxi driver (whose number boards are in Kannada only) misbehaves with a tourist, how is the tourist supposed to report the matter to the police?
Muralidhar Rao
agenda's and agenda's
Nijavaada - I was talking of vehicles with number plates in "Kannada only". But, I suppose, it's not as if you have not understood that.
My agenda is a secure state (apart from other things), and that's what this thread is all about. Yours, on your own admission, is the 'exclusive KKK' state. Now, please do not convert this discussion also into a KKK one, like you have been trying with every other discussion.
Your comment "I am not contesting the possibility of those ladies being unable to recognize any character because of their inebriated state!", clearly shows you out for what you are! Praja members were so far inclined to give the benefit of doubt - no more, I should think!
Now, whether inebriated or not, nobody has any business to touch the women. That does not seem to be a issue to you. Your statement may as well have been a quote from Ms Nirmala Venkatesh, the erstwhile NCW member, whose biggest finding in the enquiry into the Ambrosia (Mangalore) incident, was that the bar didn't have a valid license - need one elaborate?
I have said whatever there's to be said in the matter in my response to Naveen. Beyond that, I have nothing more to add.
Muralidhar Rao
Incorrect Approach
Mr.murali,
Yours is a view that does not capture the larger picture. I have travelled all over kerala & tamilnadu, not to mention maharashtra, bengal & gujarat & find that number plates & also most road signs are in their local languages. Is the importance of number plates any lesser there ? Most people in karnataka know & read kannada numerals better than english ones just as the majority of people in kerala understand their own local language better. At least, in karnataka, road signs are in both languages along highways.
If I had an accident or a "crime" in kerala, what am I supposed to do ? Not knowing the local language there, how am I supposed to quickly memorize the license nos. ? In fact I did need assistance once when we lost our way as the road signages were displayed only in malayalam. I did not complain or make an issue about it since I, being an outsider not knowing their local language, was expected to respect their sentiments, & the same is expected of all the outsiders who have made bangalore or karnataka their home.
Rules cannot be enforced just because people from outside wish it & do not want to see license numbers & road signs in the local language.
This is why I mentioned that this has to be taken up at the central govt level for uniform enforcement across all states. Complaining about license plates in local language only in bangalore is illogic when this is also the case everywhere else & in worse form/s.
I suggest we campaign for uniform license number plates (& also road signs) in both the local language as well as english for all states. If you did this, I would support you, but I'm afraid I do not want to be party to complain only against one state when all of the other states do the same & remain unquestioned.
naveen
Aside of the discussion,
just for information,
could you please clarify where you found malayalam numerals on number plates in kerala. The script has been extinct and the numerals used in kerala are standard arabic numerals.
Kerala - Number Plates & Road Signs
Thampan,
We had toured the whole of Kerala by driving - started from mangalore to Palghat, Kochi, Kumarkom, Alleppy, Munnar, Thekadi, Thiruvananthapuram & Cape Comorin, & then back through Tamilnadu (via Coimbatore, Salem). En-route, we saw many taxis at Munnar, Thekadi & along the local roads & state highways sporting license plates in malayalam, which I was unable to read (I do not know what script, but it looked like malayalam writing).
Most of the road signs were also in malayalam (except on NH-17) & we lost our way on one of the state highways & ended up doing almost an additional 35km the wrong way, which we had to retrace. We could not follow the road signs with only malayalam writings on it.
Is this now being changed & english also included ?
number plates
possibly you could have seen tamil number plates, if the areas were on the border.
Many of the sign boards have english on them .. and at places hindi also ..
We'll wake up only after a horrifying terrorist attack
You're missing the point. It is not about 'people from outside' wishing it. If there is a terrorist attack at BIAL and a gang of 'outsiders' spots the getaway car but cannot provide any useful information because - you guessed it. Of course, a "professional" terrorist group will use false number plates or some more sophisticated mechanism, but this was just an example.
"I suggest we campaign for uniform license number plates (& also road signs) in both the local language as well as english for all states"
Sure, but English, with 'Hindu Arabic numerals' should be compulsory, and the local language optional. There should be rigid and well-specified standards for size, position/location, etc.
Language, language and more language
So, let us, with immediate effect, hound out, or kill, every illiterate 'citizen of Karnataka' for 'failing in their duties'.
By the way, I got to know today, that some people burnt hundreds of English property tax forms, and allowed only the Kannada forms to reach the BBMP offices. Do not know which organization was behind this, but this action will most certainly find support from at least one praja member.
"Most people in karnataka know & read kannada numerals better than english ones"
I don't agree wth this even one bit, especially w.r.t. the numerals. But since this is a subjective matter, we can continue arguing about this till the cows come home. No point.
straight Q&A - REPEAT #1
(@admin - if you have a reason to delete this again, exhibit fairness and delete the "chaunvinist" remark in another comment posted by murali772 here. I am talking about progress here, unlike some other comments here - ones which actually warrant deletion)
Murali avre,
Since you've admitted you have nothing more to say in this regard, you may find these answers more enlightening, and inspiring to accept reality and realise the real need of being a Praje..
You said: Lack of standards in any number plating in "other" languages - including Kannada..
I say: So do you believe that there "can" be no real standard to contain numbers and characters on a number plate in Karnataka? If so, then I think your opinion in this regard is highly myopic and slavishly biased towards accepting (for eternity) what has been written in an age-old British established MV act.. And if you dont think so abuot standards, then time is ripe now, that we talk about these very standardisations that are needed if Karnataka can set an example in enforcing state-official-language number plates..
You said: You talk about Rama sene, taliban, LeT and all the outfits that fit fine in your minds - the same minds that seem to be moulded finely by the Times..
I say: Confusing, and not convincing, eh!! Sshow me one reason why you are bringing the names of these groups in this discussion when you want to talk about safety on roads! I thought safety (on roads) was your original concern in this thread. I hope you dont want to lead this thread to providing safety for all the (drunken) folks in BLR, who happen to be standing on the road (where cars ply) and want to complain for every stone moving apart from them.. I am not against anyone getting drunk at any time, but I am seriously against such people filing complaints when they already stood on the road to lead to an accident. What is Praja's pedestrian rule-book understanding doing here?!
You said: All remaining are language chauvinists..
I say: I wonder why Praja would still like to allow such undemocratic commenting by such people on this forum. This person deserves to be strictly informed that people on Praja cannot tolerate his (actually) chauvinistic stance against people that just want things to be the way that is in the interest of the majority in this state. Simply said, democratically a majority in Karnataka speaks, writes, reads and understands best the Kannada langauge and its script. It is but chauvinism exhibited by Mister Murali here to use such words on those that speak FOR the establishment of this official language in public usage. Mister Murali could be a self-appointed problem-monger himself if he wishes to repeat such disturbing words against people that want to emphasize the importance of a point, in a democratic way.
You said: You talk about there being a standard for Karnataka, and BLR especially..
I say: Mister Murali, let me clarify once again here, that BLR is no different from the rest of Karnataka, and in fact standing as capital of this Kannada speaking state, BLR has all the features it needs to establish a public policy that is applicable across the entire state of Karnataka. And to this effect, if what it takes from us as responsible Praje, is to help in making this standard work for us, that is what we NEED to do here. And not express wasteful, and unwonted empathy towards outsiders that may face a problem on one day of an year.. sorry! you just forgot that having a board in Kannada just helped 5.5 crore people in this state to read those plates easily everyday of the year.
You've just forgotten that it is overboard that the vehicles in Karnataka would be going (with due respect to the law, which we definitely want amended for the convenience of a majority of people inside Karnataka) by displaying number plate in ENG as well. But if they are not and if a tourist finds it tough to report, then there are better ways to work towards (lets hear it from those tourists also sometimes, whatsay?) - say towards reducing such occasions calling for complaints - instead of "forcing" autos to display boards in more languages. Tomorrow a guy from middle east, say, unable to read Roman numbers/characters will attract more Muralis to vouch for Arabic characters as well, isnt it?
Not the way to go, dude.. Problems of the new age need solutions of the new age, and not old garage quality thinking. Suggest you to step out of the old world solution pond, and bring innovative solutions using technology.. Automatically recognising Kannada (only) number plates is not going to be asking for the moon. Lets talk about that instead.. just as an example.. goes to show that talking just about KKK - can indeed help us head in the direction of solving all the problems we face in our daily lives here in BLR.
-Nijavaada
Nirmala Venkatesh
Soon after being sacked, this erstwhile member said, "This is a conspiracy to defame my state Karnataka. The Karnataka people are peace loving"!!!!!!!!!!! If this woman had even a little credibility earlier, she lost it completely with this statement.
HOWEVER, there is at least one Praja member who will wholeheartedly support this woman and everything she says.
White Lies
Oh yes, you are against people (especially women) getting drunk and you are very much a 'culture protector'. I can safely say this based on several of your earlier comments on different forums.
And on top of that, you say that the women here were somehow wrong in lodging a complaint. So, is is ok to be beaten black and blue just because they MIGHT HAVE BEEN standing on the road. ok to be beaten with stones on the head till unconsciousness.
Now you really have shown your true colors. You are happy, like a few others, that women who dared to drink, were beaten up and put in their place. All the more so, since some of them were outsiders. Hey, they didn't know Kannada - so they're fair game.
People who are closet sympathizers of such goons and such activity will face the same goons in a different situation someday. A tiny bump on the road - a small scratch - anything. Then, those goon-sympathizers can try their best to talk themselves out of the situation by speaking in kannada. Would be fun to watch.
Apply Rules Uniformly
Vinay - I think you are missing the point, too. Unless this is enforced uniformly across all states, do not expect this state alone to do it, for it sounds biased.
Terrorists are a threat in mumbai & other cities too - so, they also need to reform, correct ? In any case, terrorists are carrying out attacks at will right under the noses of security personnel. As if they are going to use genuine plates, whether in english or the local language - so, in what way will license nos. in english help when they are going to be false anyway ?
The only exception is when outsider/s are subject to some form of crime, such as looting, in which case they might not be able to record the number quickly. For this, until such time that this is enforced uniformly across the nation, it is better for outsiders to manage or try to learn the numerals, just as we try to do when we visit other states, instead of complaining & expecting it to be enforced only here, ignoring the situation & practices in all other states.
clear your table..
Mr. Vinay,
I am here on this thread because the discussion about this accident (of sorts) led us to talking (potentially) sensible stuff about number plates and the future to which we can take it. If you insist on continuing your verbal abuisve diarrhoea, please suit your own childish self. And if you want to stick to your english media measuring-yard, suit yourself again, and go ahead and be confused. Drawing your own conclusions in your cocoon of thoughts has always been your hallmark, and you continue to be displaying these very capabilities. So please continue the cacaphony, and perhaps entertain a few people here with your verbal antics..
And BTW, (PURELY FOR COMPARISON, NOTHING PERSONAL IN THIS) if you so like it, please simulate the same scene at the same spot, with some ladies that you may know, and then send out a similar article to the media - I wonder if they'll even print one letter you send - because you're not Saugata or whoever that actually matters to the media treasury.. no one would read what you send, and of course you probably wont be able to write a novel like that on a newspaper.. wow! What a tailor-made (anti-kannadiga hinting to suit english media, and its readers) narration by Saugata there, eh!? Sweeps many a liberals off their feet spontaneously..
-Nijavaada
Yahbut, who enforces it?
Words, big words and bigger words
:-)
Drawing your own conclusions based on long-winded and complexly-worded paragraphs has always been your hallmark, and you continue to be displaying these very capabilities. So please continue the long-winded 'this-is-best-becuase-I-say-so' type of writeups, and perhaps push people away from the cause you espouse, instead of drawing them towards it.
Maybe its time you stopped thinking there is a huuuuge conspiracy all around to defame and degrade K-K-K? And maybe when someone makes a joke in Kannada-written-in-Roman-script about movie titles, you shouldn't consider it an insult to Kannada itself? (You know what I'm talking about, right?)
Two different things
These are clearly two different things, lets not confuse - one that requires changes to the law and the other enforcement of the current law (till new law comes into effect).
Those who are passionate about having regional language number plates (either along with english or without), should really move forward and come up with proposals, meet the right authorities, ministries and take it forward. No one is stopping you. Please also gather and publish facts and figures (eg: number of people who can understand english and number of people who can understand kannada numerals, etc...) before you arrive at the final proposal, else it would be rejected by the authorities/ministries.
The new laws would take time to materialize. Meanwhile, I think what Murali-sir is saying here is, to enforce existing laws to combat potential threats to kannadigas (and others!). Now, don't argue that kannadigas do not face threat because we know kannada. We can say that for sure only after you publish the facts and figures.
And as a last note, if a system is screwed up in another state, it doesn't mean we should not fix it here. As Vinay noted, enforcement is a state affair.
-- navshot
And, what's 'anti'??
And it is certainly possible that the goons might have tried to hide behind the 'mannina maga' argument. Lots of goons and lumpen elements in the city are trying to take advantage of, and hide behind a 'protect Kannada' stand.
While I completely appreciate efforts to preserve Kannada culture and language, and I get as angry as anyone else when some people treat Kannada or Kannadigas as inferior just because they think Kannada is inferior language, it is very important to recognize when someone is really trying to do something constructive for the betterment of K-K-K and when lumpen elements in society are simply taking advantage.
It is still Central govt's responsibility
Vinay - I think you are correct when you say that the constitution already has guidelines and laws in place that specify how number plates should be & that the police in each state are expected to enforce laws.
However, since many of the states are not doing it, is it again not the central govt's responsibility to tackle this situation ? I believe it is.
I think we should focus & understand why they are actually not doing it rather than complain because this is more important. The reason is simple of course - many others also are not following it to protect their own local language & prevent backlash from their populace.
I feel it will work if the two language option is given, hence, I had suggested it. This will bring about standardization as also protect the local sentiments, & might be more acceptable to states. Outsiders in all states will also not have complaints.
It is RTO/Traffic police's responsibility
Naveen,
Police is a state subject. How do you expect the Central Govt to come and monitor this? The MV Act is the responsibility of the central govt. But fines are collected by the BTP.
Let's also remember we are not an autarky. Most of the wheat, rice, dal, etc we eat comes from outside the state. They come in trucks with different registration numbers PB, RJ, etc If each of these decided that they would use their own script, then god help us if they were involved in accidents like a hit and run. Like it or not English is the default link language in this country (many don't like it but offer no alternative). Just because TN or Kerala does it does not mean we have to tolerate it. I find this reasoning quite absurd.
The other day I saw a Delhi car with Kannada license plates and a TN auto with registration in Kannada. As Navshot says, if this is such a logical and important thing, then get the laws changed.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Personal Experience
Soon he got a call on his mobile and he was speaking fluent Telugu. And the auto had a Kannada number plate. Curious, I asked him (in Hindi) about where he hails from, etc. Turned out that he was from Anantpur (AP) and didn't know a word of Kannada (or very few words).
New to praja
Mr Bidari has been making funny/irresponsible remarks from the day he has assumed office. I being a KANNADIGA and having known thousands of kannadigas for 30 yrs feel IMHO that Kannadigas dont subscribe to this SAVE KANNADA CHAUVENISM. Also....no matter how the SIGNBOARDS/NUMBER PLATES in other states are...We should follow the rules, and they state that it has to be in ROMAN numerals...
THATS MY VIEW....
Right Dr.
The reasons for the probem are:
20% of the problem is caused by some of the 'outsiders' who feel that Kannada as a language is somehow 'inferior'. Not all outsiders think this way, in fact a relatively small percentage thinks like this. But this is part of the problem.
20% is caused by people who use 'protection of Kannada' as an excuse to fleece people, misbehave, indulge in vandalism and goondaism, etc. These people do not realize the immense disservice they do to their land when they indulge in such things. In fact most of these people don't care about the land or about K-K-K.
60% is caused by Kannadigas who perceive Kannada as being 'uncool' and will not dare to talk kannada on the streets or (gasp) in a mall!! These people are the primary reason for all the angst surrounding the K-K-K issues.
That way, the greatest service to Kannada is being performed by the FM radio RJs who speak in kannada and bring that 'cool flavour' to kannada. RJ Prithvi of radio one, who speaks in kannada but plays Hindi songs has contributed more to the cause of promoting Kannada than most others. Also, people who make films like Mungaru Male are major contributors to bringing a 'cool' image to Kannada.
correct analyses
I am glad about Mr. Vinay for having come up with a really good analysis of the 3K picture - as long as you've got the right crowds assigned to the right percentages - but I must say and I believe that your analysis is with Bengaluru as its lone specimen - isnt it? But thats fine - no issue with that! But why RJs of Radio One alone, there are a lot more RJs of other radio channels that have made Kannada sound cool, by not just talking in it, but also making an entire city (and a lot of its outskirts) step dance to Kannada numbers.
And our Yajamanru is indeed right here in pointing out that English, today, happens to be the default link language of the entire country. But let us find out what the EU ministry speaks in a Brussels assembly? Of course only a minority speaks in English. The EU is an european equivalent of India when it comes to linguistic diversity, and they are managing without English - which sets us an example, that we too CAN. Defaults can change! Yajaman is right in pointing out that we CANNOT do it today. But today need not be the same as tomorrow. What it can be, is of course in our hands ONLY. We only need to realise which is better - today or tomorrow.
But of course as Yajaman continues to say, we need not imitate what our neighbouring states do. I cannot agree more on this, in its fundamental sense i.e. But there're of course exceptions where in we can be inspired from one another. For instance in this case where KL and TN have their number plates in MLM and TML respectively, we must derive inspiration from them for being able to sustain those boards, and still not cause much trouble to the people that visit them from outside their state.
We need to be open minded enough to accept that questioning the defaults is not wrong per-se, and it can be wrong only when those questions dont end up having feasible answers. So are we ready to find those answers out here? Are we going to dare to question the defaults, or do we want to succumb to things that have been written down, just because they have "already" been written down? The MV act is perhaps a very ancient act coming to think of. If the BTP collects the fines from us, it is but no big feast to beat our chests to, for the same BTP is not even empowered (by the Center and its MV act) to revise any numbers relating to these fines that are charged. A simple revision in a parking ticket fine needs approval all the way from Delhi. All this while we continue to say Police dept. falls under the State list.
-Nijavaada
Now girls/women can not wear Burkha?
Now women with BURKHA are also not spared. One should read this news item to believe and hang our heads in shame.
http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/06/stories/2009030654750400.htm
What started it to be in the service of Namma Nadu and Namma Sanskruti, now has slowly turning into a service of my dharma and nothing else. Here is an another case of how religious hatredness is being unleashed all in the name of safe gaurding our sanskruti. The other day the attack was to discourage people wearing JEANS. Today it is Burkha, tomorrow kurta Payjama, and what not.How do we categorize such behavior which strikes at the roots of one's choice to live?
re: correct analyses
@nijavadaa
//The EU is an european equivalent of India when it comes to linguistic diversity, and
//they are managing without English - which sets us an example, that we too CAN.
The similarity (or euivalency) begins and ends there between EU and India. They have in fact signed a joint declaration on this similarity (http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/09/362&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en) but in my opinion this similarity is meaningless to me as an ordinary citizen of India. I would trade anything for the superior quality of infrastructure, pollution free encironment, wonderful public transport, law enforcement, civic hyegiene and other civic facilities plus better overall quality of life available in most countries of the EU.
What is different is that the EU is striving towards integration with common standards & specifications in terms of -
1) integrating their rail network for higher interoperability thereby delivering higher reliability, safety & superior end user experience (http://ec.europa.eu/transport/rail/interoperability/ertms/ertms_en.htm)
2) integrating their road network by adopting EU wide standards for road infrastructure management; note that this includes road signage, road design & construction and a multitude of all other road infrastructure aspects (http://www.neurope.eu/articles/88093.php)
3) EU emission standards (http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/)
4) integrated EU airspace (http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport/single-european-sky-greener-air-travel/article-173593)
5)integrated currency & economies (http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eu_economic_situation/index_en.htm?cs_mid=410)
They are in the process of achieving the above and much more despite being different diverse countries coming together (and thinking of the big picture). THE ABOVE achievements are what we need to take as an example. That being said, all is not rosy in the EU and they have their share of regional politics but can anybody give a better example of different countries coming together under one umbrella to achieve progress in multiple spheres? Language issues and regionlism should be our last issue if we are to progress as a country, but if we put that foremost we are going to go nowhere. As I have pointed out before in other threads languages are best left to themselves to flourish rather than us meddling around to achieve our perspectives and agendas.
Contrast this (above EU achievements) with our country where we are actually a single country where in theory it should be easier to implement standards & specications and achieve better progress but -
- be it Bangalore or Mumbai or assam our own country people from other parts called "outsiders"and we are busy squabbling over language and having issues with "Hindi speaking"/"Kannada Speaking"/"Tamil Speaking" etc. people.
- we cannot agree on standards for road signage, safety standards nor road design&construction standards (this is obviously changing but we have a long way to go)
- we are squabbling over which language to use on our license plates rather than thinking what is the most practicle "big picture" approach (standards & specifications) applicable to the entire country and then making the population learn that language to read those number plates (undoubteldly English is default link language and by common sense it the most preferred nationally applicable standard)..but wait..knowing our history we would get into a north/south English vs Hindi vs local language squablle and which language should be more prominent thereby totally missing big picture.
- our railways has pathetic service and safety standards; policies are almost solely driven by vote bank politics and when the railway budget is out all we can do is end up with regionalism based squabbling saying look how Karnataka got a raw deal (like in one of the threads on praja which discussed the recent railway budget). BTW, in what language should KK express going from Bangalore to New Delhi have signs keeping in mind that it passes through half a dozen states? Should we be squabbling over that or improving Indian Railways?
I am quite amazed that this thread has turned into more of a Kannada issue rather than the real question of how to curb this deteriorating law & order situation, goondaism and intolerance. There have been similar outcomes in other threads be it discussing about crossing the road, vehicle number plates, roadside hoardings etc. I get it that some folks are passionate about Kannada but why convert threads into a linguistic issue and get into the line of discussion about Kannada being inferior or not, insulting Kannada or not? Believe me, no language on earth is superior or inferior. It is the people as a society who are superior or inferior based on how they live and conduct themselves. English has ascended to it's present status because of British and US dominance in the past few hunded years and due to economic reasons. A couple of hundred years from now it could be Chinese going by how they are progressing economically & militarily. If India had been the dominant and far reching globally influential power in the last few hunded years we might well have witnessed hindi being spoken on a wider scale globally today.
And lastly, Nijavada, about EU managing without english and taking their example I suggest we be fact based and not go overboard because of love for a language thereby unwittingly twisting fatcs to our advantage. In the European countries I have visited and those that my friends have visited, english license plates are widely used. Here are samples from major EU countries
Austria - http://www.olavsplates.com/austria.html
Belguim - http://www.olavsplates.com/belgium.html
Denmark - http://www.olavsplates.com/denmark.html
France - http://www.olavsplates.com/france.html
Germany - http://www.olavsplates.com/germany.html
Last but not the least, sorry for diverging from the initial topic of this thread but i could not restrain myself on seeing that yet another thread had taken a linguistic issue turn.
-blrpraj
It's sad that people of
<p>
IMO, since English is a language ties people across linguistically, the number plates need to be in English and Roman numerals. Imagine if a Kannadiga working in Assam or Gujarat or anywhere else is involved in a hit and run or a case of molestation by men on bikes or cars, would they be able to note down the number if it's in the local language? A few here make a lot of noise about the number plates in local langauge. Put yourself in the shoes of those who do not speak your language and think about the issue.
<p>
But, since there is a demand for numbers in local language, we could reach a compromise, where every number plate has to display the registration number both in local langauge and English and both need to be of the same sized font (something like what government vehicles in Karnataka have to follow). This hopefully should be acceptable to both sides and the cops need to strictly enforce the law.
<p>
Only problem I see, if people get transferred out to other states, they need to change the number plates to meet the local langauge requirement of that state (Since MV is a central act, the center needs to amend the law on number plates and hence this will be applicable across the country)
<p>
Honestly, I don't see how you are showing pride for your language by enforcing it on number plates of a vehicle! There's so many other more productive ways to promote and celebrate your language and culture!
EU vs. India
The EU is NOT the European equivalent of India IMHO. It is tempting to make the comparison because of the similarity of size and the lingustic diversity. It is primarily a union of individual Nation States with a common currency and liberalized labour movement (yes -migration!). It was preceded by what was an economic union, whose member states gave up a lot of autonomy when they became part of the union. They still don't have a European Constitution (France and Netherlands refused to sign). In many areas they operate with a high degree of supranationalism (the equivalent of a strong central govt). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_pillars_of_the_European_Union
India, the last time I checked, was a political union with one constitution, one national flag, etc. The linguistic reorganization came 9 years after India the nation-state came into being (and therefore to state that India is a union of linguistic states can be a bit misleading). Karnataka, TN, AP, and the other states did not come together to form India.
English remains the most widely spoken foreign language in the EU. 87% of the Dutch, 89% of Swedes, 86% of Danes, 58% of Austrians, 60% of Belgians, 63% of Finns and 56% of Germans are conversant in English. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union
Apart from learning from their linguistic diversity, we can also learn to adopt some of their more liberal outlook to life :), including e.g. the right for a woman to drink in a pub ( and get drunk in the process) without being harassed by the moral police and being judged as immoral.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Still a Nation of Diversity
All said & done, India still remains a nation of diversities connected by the commonality of a shared past. Today, it stands as a smaller "United Nations" despite many obstacles & wars. There has also been labor migration taking place on a large scale from rural to urban areas in all possible directions - the bigger cities attracting the major chunk in this movement.
Whilst cities such as Mumbai, Delhi & Bangalore have attracted the largest share, the same cities (& the states they belong to) have been hard pressed to preserve their originality in whatever form possible.
This has given rise to some undesirables, no doubt, but the issue of license plates is something I had been observing in other states & also in our own for quite some time.
An example is a class where most of the students disregard the rule of silence. Can one pupil be picked & told to shut up whilst others are ignored & continue to chatter ? In effect, this is what we are doing in praja by demanding our city or state to implicitly follow the MV act as it is written when many around us do not.
I still believe that the MV act needs to be amended to allow display of license numbers in both, the local language & english characters. This is the only sensible thing to do. The MV act, in it's present form is not being adhered to by most states & karnataka is not an "exception" here, rather it is the "rule" as a majority of the states do the same, which is turn a blind eye to license plates in local script.
Aspire to be law abiding society, No excuses!
Naveen Avare,
I rather amused at your conjunctures giving justification for not to follow & enforce the law. India has progressed in democratic traditions, only because we all have reposed faith in implementing the democratic process and institutions. Even though the systems, process are far from any good. That is the reason India is an example for progressing democracy. If we had followed the advice given by you to look to the neighbors in implementing law & enforcements, then believe me we would not have so many prime ministers/presidents, instead we would have ruled by dictators.
Sir, we should not be putting forward any excuse in not abiding the law and its enforcement. Laws may fall short of the objectives, but that doesn't mean we should stop following the law. Just because your neighbors doesn't do it, you can not afford NOT to enforce the law. Today it is License Plate, tomorrow it could be that police will not take any action against the rowdies, thieves, terrorist because our neighbors doesn't take action against them. Naveen sab, we as a civil society will be doomed the day we take public postures that promotes law-less culture, even if it is in one issue.
If laws are the problem then, our endeavor should be to fix the lucanae in the laws, not going over board with any suggestions asking for law enforcement.
Some Laws May Not be so Perfect
Syed avare,
I agree with most of what you say. Your last para sums it all - "If laws are the problem then, our endeavor should be to fix the lucanae in the laws..." - this is exactly what I have been trying to say too.
I believe the MV Act is one such problem law that is being flagrantly violated not just in karnataka but also in many other states. In such a situation, asking one state to comply with it is not going to solve the larger problem because there will be vehicles crossing borders & displaying plates in their own scripts in the other states. If the state /local traffic police try to enforce this rule too hard on vehicles from outside, besides their own, it might lead to needless unrest, since sentiments attached to local languages & cultures are still too strong within each state & cannot be ignored - clearly, this phenomenon of displaying plates in local languages is a manifestation of the same.
To ignore this is also incorrect as it can help those indulging in anti-social activities or crimes.
The only solution I can think of is for a change in the act that allows display of plates in the local as well as english languages. It can be spelt out that both have to be of a specific size, as already suggested by others.
This way, there would be far less or no resistance & the chances of uniformity across all states will be much better. Enforcement also becomes easier - violators can be taken to task by the local traffic police easily without evoking sentiments as biases can be cast aside without hesitation.
Outsiders, who are now in very large numbers not just in bangalore, but in many cities & towns across the country will also have no problems with this as they can follow the english version of the numbers if they are unable to read the local nos.
TN & kerala number plates
http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/23/stories/2008122358570200.htm
is our judicial system so imcompetent?
So, fellow praja forumers, any ideas or clues how the persons involved in the Mangalore incident got off on bail when evidence of the heinousness of their crime was there for all to see on national prime time TV, and globally available on youtube etc.? Are we so spineless as a societynation/city/state to not protest the fact that these goons got off on bail? Is our judicial system so incompetent and toothless that thugs against whom there is ample evidence get away on bail due to money & polictical connections but an average law fearing middle class person can rot away and get harassed in the legal system? So many questions but so few answers.
I have decided to write to the PMO, President, Chief Justice of India & the media to demand an explanation for the lenient treatement of these criminals whereas on the other hand Renuka Choudhary was promptly slapped with a case for terming that Mangalore is getting talibanized (i really don't get the logic here since the police did not act against the goons till public pressure was applied but against a person like Renuka who is not really a threat to the police or anyone the police machinery promptly swung into action). I suggest all other praja member do the same of writing letters to the above mentioned persons/entities, at least that will get the ball rolling and make the goverment aware that people are indeed questioning what is happening. The goal would be to see all those goons involved in the mangalore incident back in jail for the maximum period possible without bail.
Here is an excerpt from a recent article (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Pub-attack-Sri-Ram-Sene-chief-Muthalik-gets-bail/417507/) about those 28 goons getting bail, pay special attention to the bolded lines -
---------------------------------
The Mangalore police had booked the primary attackers in the case under charges of assault on women and tresspassing. However, with the girls attacked at the pub refusing to come forward to press the case and with the pub owners claiming that they could not identify the attackers, the case was already on a weak wicket.
---------------------------------
What beats me is, there is ample video evidence to identify at least some of them if not all 28 for the state of Karnatka to act and proceed on this case.
Small observation
While EU came about because people realize the need to integrate for better econmic prosperity and ease of doing business with one another, we have people in our country looking to dis-integrate and pick up fights to not do business with one another. Arguably, our down fall in history started when we were divided, let us hope it will not come to that.
identity crises
@ BLRSRI, Nearly all of europe speaks its own language, but quite coincidentally all of them, nearly, use the same character set as their script. Which is the reason why you will surely find such boards across many EU nations.
@ BLRSRI, although there is integration envisioned across EU nations, one must realise that the system is integrated to work in a common fashion, but the languages used in implementation in each participant nation is the country's own language. If Germany imposes the EU emission stds. on automobile companies, it sends its documents in German, not English. And the EU parliament doesnt see the need for a EU level (like our "national") language to integrate them.
@ ROSHANRK, please refer to one other comment I posted on a separate thread - if someone were to approach you, while in Bengaluru, and as you where you were from. Supposing you were from Indore, would you say you're from Indore, MP, or would you give them as absurd a reply as I am from India? What identity do you really convey when you say you're an Indian? Nothing much. Within yourself, you're first where you hail from - and that is Karnataka for a Kannadiga, and likewise for other language people. But if handling multiple identities is a problem for some, it is "their" problem, and not that of the system.
@ ROSHANRK, Imagination could take you places, but here, in your imaginations, they're all but problems in our current system - that one could frequently get transferred and that his vehicle might have to bear a different number every so many months and such things. But dont we want to think out of the box, and relook at this system which makes these transfers look like a "necessity?" Why do people in a country have to roam around so much, more so, as a principle, or a profession that keeps the country running?!
@ YAJAMAN, Well there certainly are those many people that speak English pretty well in those EU nations - which we too have, and thats not the point here. The point is how many of those people think English is needed to keep those EU nations together. None.
-Nijavaada
Thampan, thanks
Many thanks for those links to reports from Hindu, as also your previous inputs.
On the ground, though, it seems a near-impossibility to erradicate displays in local languages, be these license plates, public bus no. & route displays, road signs, etc..
My first exposure to these was way back when I was a student in Mumbai, not knowing marathi. I was forced to pick up marathi nos since I had been a regular bus user. The situation is pretty much the same, & buses continue with route no. information in the local language, now joined by many road vehicles too that sport local scripts.
The situation is no better elsewhere. We will have to wait & see if there are improvements in TN & Kerala, as promised by traffic police chiefs in those articles, but I can safely say that these again will be "tried but failed" attempts, knowing all too well how these pan out in the end.
A "drive" will be conducted for a few weeks, & then everything returns back to "normal".
which came first, eh?!
@ Yajaman,
Well, your claim about the Indianness of everything inside India is a bit flawed - taking off from what, and the way, you've presented your comment above.
That KA, TN or AP didnt exist 9 years until after Indian independence is true - but that doesnt prove that people in those regions didnt speak Kannada, Tamil or Telugu 9 years after, or even centuries before Indian independence! The fact is that the identity envisioned by some people in our country is unfortunately linked to the event of this mass of land gaining independence from Colonial rule!
While you're right in saying that there was nothing called a state of TN or a state of AP or a state of KAR at the time when India was formed, but the fact you're missing in your theory is that people in those regions spoke the very same languages, even centuries before Independence. And it was binding, and in fact the wisest thing to do - in reorganizing the 9yr old India on the basis of centuries old languages that its people spoke. It was indeed a great moment when some leaders of those days realised the importance of one language among a people under one governance.
And indeed the people speaking those languages did come and join the Union of India when the constitution of India was solemnified, and the first elected parliament formed. People of different languages did coerce into this Indian union. The fact that India was later reorganized into states speaking their unique language leads us to understand that it was virtually these very states that had coerced to form the Indian union. And in fact, at the time of this union formation, the very first few words of our constitution bestows upon all Indians the continued right to freedom of various things, and that is symbolic of the continued freedoms that an individual would have enjoyed in his erstwhile land, had the colonial period not occured in history. It was done with a noble intention that the fundamental characteristics of the people (viz. their language) in India doesnt get affected because of being in the Indian union.
-Nijavaada
@ Nijavaada
Nijavaada-avare,
"How many people think they need to know how to speak English?". Well I am no mind reader. I gave you some data on how many people are conversant in English in EU. It does not seem to suit your line of thinking. So now you twist the question. You have access to Google just as much as anyone else. I am not your search engine assistant. Go look for the data yourself and share it with us.
"Well, your claim about the Indianness of everything inside India is a bit flawed - taking off from what, and the way, you've presented your comment above." Well your claim to the Kannadaness of everything inside Karnataka is equally flawed then. I see myself as a human being first, then an Indian and then as a speaker of a language. If that is too much for you to believe, so be it. I don't really have to convince you about my way of looking at things. East is East and West is West.
"And it was binding, and in fact the wisest thing to do - in reorganizing the 9yr old India on the basis of centuries old languages that its people spoke. It was indeed a great moment when some leaders of those days realised the importance of one language among a people under one governance". Your opinion being stated as one of Buddha's noble truths! Many of the national leaders at the time of independence were against the formation of linguistic states - Nehru and Rajaji among them. It took the agitation and the subsequent suicide of Potti Sriramulu for the government to capitulate and let AP form.
As for the rest of your argument, I am really sorry to say this, but it is far too verbose and long winded for me to make sense of. I tried but failed.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Can I take the liberty to..
Since this has been completely converted into a K-K-K thread, may I take the liberty of summarizing the 'problem' and my views, for whatever it is worth:
s_yajaman:
My personal thinking is similar to yours. I consider myself and all others human beings with their own individuality first. But we need to be practical and realize that most people in India do not think the way we do. The Indian public is divided, and there is no shortage of issues to divide them. Majority of the people in our country identify themselves as Kannadigas, Tamilians, Dalits/Brahmins, Hindus, Muslims and so on.
A growing proportion of the educated public in Karnataka identify with the 'save Kannada' cause. Many of them think that all the problems in Bangalore are solely because of outsiders and the 'negative influence' they bring with them. This is common human nature worldwide. In East Germany around a year back, a group of Indians were chased all over town and beaten up by a gang of hoodlums chanting "go back Indians, leave us our jobs".
Of course, I think it is hogwash to say that outsiders are responsible for all issues in Bangalore. People who make this claim forget the immense benefit that Kannadigas reap by this influx of 'outsiders', the number of employment opportunities that are created, and so on. Blaming that all-emcompassing 'outsider' for all our issues has become a fashion.
But one thing I need to concede - there is a small section of people ('outsiders') who have a superiority complex and consider everything South Indian or 'Madrasi' as inferior and ridicule anything related to the 'South'. Even someone like me, with my liberal views, would get irritated hearing such claims. For example, during the 'Rajkumar riots', a certain friend of mine said, "These people say that we need to speak in Kannada in Bangalore. But howcome, being in India, these people don't know Hindi??". This is an obnoxious and irritating comment, even to someone like me, who knows Hindi extremely well. I am sure you would agree.
But persons like this would poke fun at Biharis, Bengalis, Sardarjees, etc. Everyone pokes fun at everyone else and considers them inferior. Indians are among the most racist and xenophobic people on the planet, and this is the unfortunate truth.
Nijavaada:
Better stop thinking that there is a huge conspiracy all around against Kannada. There was absolutely nothing anti-Kannada in Saugata's writing as you seem to insinuate. What these goons, hoodlums, goondas, rowdies, thugs did was WRONG and there can be absolutely no justification or any kind of defence for them. In your comments here, you have taken the role of an apologist for these hooligans, and I have zero tolerance for views like these. Your view is that even Goondas can be forgiven as long as they are sons of the soil, whereas outsiders are always the culprits, all other factors be damned.
You need to realize that being part of this Indian Union, Karnataka does not live in isolation. We need to by power, vegetables, cars, etc. from other states, and also sell to them. As someone above mentioned, God help us if each state began enforcing number plates in only their respective languages. We NEED a link language. Whenever I have asked you in the past about how you intend to handle defence, intelligence, bureaucracy etc. in your scheme of things, you have not answered me.
You cannot, and should not, attempt to stop migration. It is like axing the branch that you're sitting on, and that supports you. You need to stop blaming outsiders for all our ills.
let me explain
Yajamanre,
If things I say seem long winded, let me help you out on this count. But apparently, you seem to have actually succeeded at reading it all, but humbly accepting failure.
It is indeed true that some leaders were against the linguistic funda of state formation - or these very people were perhaps not even willing to form states in the country. But a lot of people did demand linguistic states formation and it wouldnt have happened without some good leaders (eg. Aloora Venkataraayaru of Karnataka) for the right way of forming lingusitic states. Unfortunately, voices against lingusitic states formation still linger in some dark avenues of our society, but without supporting arguments of another way of making this country more manageable.
About Kannadaness and identity - I am sorry if your being human was questioned by my comment - sincerely 'twas not my intention at all, of course! But seriously, I dont know why you'd feel that order of precendence of identities is right. Obviously, we're all not from Mars, and hence our human-beingness is not an identity to uniquely identify oneself, or a certain group of people.
Coming to why a human being would need an identity more than the human-tag, identity is something that a person would use to uniquely identify himself, either individually, or as among a set of people who are similar to him. In this light, assuming you agree to this need for an identity, lets hear from you your purpose of the Indian identity, and why it stands before the language identity that you have. What is it that your language lacks in uniquely identifying yourself? And what is it that this identity lacks as opposed to your Indian-ness identity?
-Nijavaada
(PS: About the google assistant thing - please find an answer in my earlier comment itself. My question was a mere rhetoric so that you may want to ponder on that thought!)
@ Vinay
@ Vinay,
While I wish to give your summary its due respect, I wish to clarify some misconceptions in it - especially about my stance, according to you.
I have never wished to advocate any goon in that scene, nor have I taken the responsibility of supporting any woman on the road, who also writes in papers complaining about people that came and beat her up on the road last night! All I am interested in talking about here, is about the matter Murali has raised - that of Kannada number plates.
But since the discussion has taken multiple dimensions here, I definitely wanted to make one point clear - which is the unnecessary mixing of certain opinions here. While Saugata talks about the whole drama, with unnecessary emphasis on the "sons of soil" thing, people using this matter to amplify issues beyond scale have probably distorted the original opinion too. While it is true that goonds whether sons of soil or otherwise, cant be forgiven, it is undemocratic to link all goondas or sons of soil to one another. This attitude strongly reflects in many a comment here - which is not tolerable either.
I was expecting my mute stance would be a good channel to stimulate your thinking in this regard. Karnataka (or any other Indian state) does not have to monitor, or exercise its governance engine according to a system that takes care of the borders in Kashmir, or the borders with China. Karnataka has borders too, and it would suffice if Karnataka minded its business around its borders, and so did every other state of India. Isnt it stupidity for Karnataka to think abour the Kashmir or the Chinese border soon after terror attacks happen in Bengaluru? It is sufficient to think about the borders and ports of Karnataka thru which these people might have come.
Fortunately or unfortunately, J&K and states such as that, have intl. borders - they just need special budgeting to mind their businesses at these borders. Where in the world do you see the need for a link language? Each state has its destiny, and fighting it out, to reach a glorious future is in its hands - which is why we have a decentralised governance model. For all a state needs to excel, as you've rightly said, there're resources that it can "buy" from other states - and that is basically the advantage of being in the Indian union. I hope this answers some of your questions.. and culls some more fond thoughts about migration.
-Nijavaada
Sorry, no answers???
"with unnecessary emphasis on the "sons of soil" thing, "
How, where? The rowdies called themselves 'Mannina Makkalu' while beating up girls, and this has been mentioned. What is 'unnecessary emphasis' here?
" providing safety for all the (drunken) folks in BLR, who happen to be standing on the road (where cars ply) and want to complain for every stone moving apart from them.. "
The complaint was not about stones moving apart, but about being assaulted and beaten black and blue.
"I am seriously against such people filing complaints when they already stood on the road to lead to an accident. "
We don't know if they were standing on the road. What we do know is that there was no 'accident'. What we do know is that even assuming they were standing on the road, the thugs had no right to bash the girls (and men). Since you make this point, if I find you standing on the road tomorrow in the path of my car, I reserve every right to bash you up, even to the extent of taking a stone and battering you till you faint. Agreed?
Yaakree, if I work in, say, Congnizant Bangalore today and tomorrow I get a job in TCS Mumbai for a higher pay, I should not migrate, is it? If a poor unemployed Kannadiga labourer gets a job in Kolhapur Maharashtra, he should simply say, 'Kannadave satya, kannadave dharma' and stay back to starve to death. All Kannadigas should be 'koopa mandookas' in your view, is it?
And now, in your scheme of things, your proposal, how will you handle defence, intelligence, espionage and counter-espionage, cross-border terrorism, foreign policy, nuclear command and control, etc. etc.????
And he conveniently ignores
@Nijavaada:
Having an identity is great. Withing India you identify yourself as a kanndiga or a tamilian etc and outside, you'd be an Indian. But, wanting every Indian in your state to be like you, learn the language you want them to, to be always be made to feel like an outside in your own country isn't done! You have the identity, be proud of it and flaunt it....within legal limits.
Don't go overboard and flout laws of the land to display your pride for your culture or you language or identity and don't coerce others to be like you, be proud of the same things like you and acquire the identity that you want them to!
A language needn't uniquely identify a person. I can speak 3-4 Indian language fluently. Does that mean I'm a kanndiga, a Malayalee, a north indian etc?? Being Indian on the other hand is unique. I cannot be an Indian and a Pakistani at the same time. Language should be means to communicate with other people and one shouldn't hinge their whole identity around a language.
No need to feel sorry for me
My last comment on this topic now that it has turned into a Kannadiga vs. outsider.
Sorry but I cannot counter polemics. You cannot state your opinion as facts and then ask me to prove the opposite. You take some freedoms (as envisioned in the Constiution) as more binding than others. When the Constitution allows people to migrate and settle anywhere that somehow is not a very good freedom as per your prevous arguments. Not just people of different language coerce into the Union but so did people of different castes and religions and opinions.
You say that no better alternative exists to linguistic organization and that is etched in stone. I said that English is the default link language. You say that we should question defaults. So some defaults should be questioned and some should not.
People have several identities. If you wish to define the language that you speak as your primary identity so be it. Just don't impose that way of thinking on others. Instead of being one in 6.7 billion or 1 in 1.2 billion, I will be one among 55 million. How is that a unique identity. We are all unique individuals. Just the fact that you and I (and Vinay and many others on this thread) inspite of sharing a language cannot see eye to eye on so many things says something about how complex human beings are. Why we crave to belong to one group and identify so strongly with it I don't know.
I am an atheist, but I don't go running around trying to find an atheist group for reaffirmation of my belief (non-belief). Would it not be laughable if I did that? I was born a Rig Vedic Brahmin (touchy subject and will be probably branded a casteist person - but it is as much a part of my cultural inheritance as my mother tongue - no?), but I don't find the need to only associate with that group or identify with that particular tag. Why then should I limit my sense of belonging to a language speaking group. These are my deeply held convictions that I have formed over a long time. If you think they are all misguided and wrong, too bad.
BTW, if the only problem was outsiders, why is that there is constant squabbling even amongst ourselves (Gowdas vs Vokkaligas vs. Lingayats).
You often urge all of us to think on this site. Doctor, heal thyself.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
what really is identity of a person?
@Nijvaada
What a person speaks and where he is from just addresses the "where" of the person; the identity of a person transcends the
simple question of "where" and encompasses the "what" and "who" aspects of the person. Let's take a random sample of eminent Indians past and present and their identities
Kapil Dev - Eminent cricketer who led India to it's only world cup victory so far.
Kishore Kumar - Eminent playback singer
AR Rahman - Eminent music composer, only Indian to have won 2 Oscars.
Sir M Vishweshwariah - Eminent architect of his time, KRS dam is a testimony of his acheivements. Narayana Murthy - world famous enterpeuner, arugably among one of the best entrepreuners India has produced.
Azim Premji - again one among the best entrepreuners India has produced in recent times.
Now, please tell me, does it matter which state in India they are from or which city they are from or what language they speak? Is language and place of ethnicity their real identity? I don't think so!
implicit
To quickly answer your implicit question, blrpraj, here're my thoughts - especially on those people you've cited here. And please note, in all that I am going to say below, I am not pushing aside the identities that you've written about. Anyway, here goes:
Kapil Dev - still termed Haryana Hurricane by people; Once stood endorsing Palmolive in Haryanvi language; Still holds pride in speaking up in Haryanvi (and Hindi) in many a post-match discussion. But this doesnt make him non-Indian. He's an Indian, because he's a Haryanvi man.
Kishore Kumar - has always said that he was a Bengali. His performance in the Bengali language has been undermined by the magnified attention that has been paid to Hindi movies in India. Again, he's no less Indian if he claims to be a Bengali. He's actually more Indian because he believed to be a Bengali even after singing hundreds of songs for the Hindi film industry.
A R Rahman - no doubts about his Tamilian origin, and pride he takes in that. He did acknowledge his Tamilianness at the acceptance speec of both Golden Globe and the Oscar. He found no shame in doing so, neither did he fail to realise that because he's a good Tamilian, he is a good Indian.
Sir M Vishweshwaraiah - This Bharata Ratna awardee realised at some point of time in his career while working in Pune, that he must invest his efforts into doing something good for the state he belongs, and hence returned to Mysore princely state, and eventually made all those contributions to his own society. Although an eminent speaker in English, as well as Kannada and Telugu, his belief that one's contribution must begin from home(land) has shown that there's an identity of all of us very close to our own selves. And that is our language, and our homeland.
So clearly, it does matter in all the above cases - apparently it seemed to have mattered to those very men we're talking about here. Their language played a significant role in defining their identity.
-Nijavaada
to summarize..
Now that there are some people calling it a day from this thread (with an incomplete sounding PoV), let me summarize some reasons for this discussion, and perhaps lay the bottom line that we may want to take away from here, and continue to ponder upon in the coming days:
I hope this summarizes the crux of the stuff that we all talked about in this page. And I hope this set of points is substantial stuff for our pondering, and some serious debates in a new thread, perhaps.
-Nijavaada
Nijavaada, future threads are a thing of the future..
Whereas you have not answered a single question posed to you on this particular thread. Rest assured, whenever you bring up similar topics in future threads, you will be redirected to this page to answer these questions first.
"We need the system to accept number plates in one additional language "
Agreed 100%, as long as the 'additional' word is not forgotten. I think this is the point that Naveen was trying to make.
"let me summarize some reasons for this discussion, and perhaps lay the bottom line that we may want to take away from here, and continue to ponder upon in the coming days"
No one will ponder, actually no one will give much credence to your views till you answer questions and doubts that arise in our minds. Asking people to ponder, or hoping to 'stimulate their thinking' does not work.
Not the crux
Hate to break my resolve, but that was not the crux of this thread.
The crux was that people cannot take the law into their own hands. Just because some people came out of a pub and stood by the roadside can never be the justification for beating them black and blue (can I beat up a motorcyclist who goes on the footpath then?). Whether they were "sons of the soil" or "outsiders" is irrelevant. Even when we go to another country, there is an implicit right to safety and the right to walk about unmolested.
The MV act was a subset of this discussion.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
some thought
I think regional scripts have already lost the battle with roman/english scripts.. we are happy to have english/roman scripts in our cellphone, tv remote, fridge......list is endless...infact every things we come to contact with on day to day basis have english/roman scripts. why we are fighting for number plate only. If you are not hypocrite..do something more than changing the number plat to save the regional language.
its about you too!
The problem with the situation you describe, Mr. Spry, is that it is equally about you, me, and all of us here. And one interesting thing to note here is, amidst the happiness you seem to be deriving from the apparent victory of English, it is but English's victory, and not ours!
Although English can earn us bread today, it is but a defeat we accept if we dont agree mentally that some day even our languages can earn us our bread. Its a challenge we're faced with. And having a number plate, yes, is not a challenge at all. It only needs a small amendment. But as discussed above, there're problems we're creating for our own Kannadiga brethren by imposing English only number plates!
So let it be clear that it is not the language we're saving by writing our number plates in it, but instead the speakers of the language. This subtle but important point has yet to be understood by some debaters here.
Let us first muster enough understanding amongst ourselves to push for such an amendment, and then think of higher goals where Kannada is the tool of several other implementations. Let us curtail our natural tendency to build endless lists of woes, and begin approaching each problem from its root cause and try and be more solution oriented, than cribbing over problems.
-Nijavaada
how do you qualify!???
Nijavaada avare'
How do you qualify to write up a summary like that? Now, there was near unanimous support for the position I had put forth, both with regard to the main topic (facing up to the goons), as also the matter of the number plates (Here, you have been deliberately misrepresenting my stance by talking of "English only" number plates. I never said anything like that. What I have been saying is that the English/ Arabic number plates be made compulsory, as per the M V Act. If anyone wants to display number boards in other languages, in addition, nobody is preventing them from doing it, even today). And, you were totally isolated. For all that, you have the gall to write a summary like that!?
And, it is not just in this thread. With your propensity to convert every debate into a KKK centred one, you have hardly received any support. So much so, you had once to run to your mentor to seek help. And, very much like Yajamaanru had pointed out earlier, most of what you have been trying to say through your 'verbal diarrhoea' (a term used by you) is totally lost on people. Perhaps it's deliberate. This is a common practice amongst politicians, who have nothing concrete to say - it is called obfuscation. You seem to have mastered the art.
Well, PRAJA has been very accommodative with you so far. But, now there's a general consensus evolving that this kind of a hijacking of debates, use of intemperate language, etc have gone a bit too far for us to tolerate any longer. A decision will have to be taken soon.
Muralidhar Rao
re: implicit
//Kapil Dev - still termed Haryana Hurricane by people; Once stood endorsing Palmolive in Haryanvi language; Still holds pride in
// speaking up in Haryanvi (and Hindi) in many a post-match discussion. But this doesnt make him non-Indian. He's an Indian,
// because he's a Haryanvi man.
Well, Kapil Dev can't become a Dr. Raj Kumar the erstwile actor or the present day Narayana Murthy just because Kapil Dev started speaking Kannada or even vice verca... Raj Kumar/Narayana Murthy will not become a Kapil Dev to lead India to a world cup just because they spoke Haryanvi, correct?
I request you not to twist facts to suit your advantage. You seem to have missed the whole point. There is no question of shame or pride in speaking or not speaking a particular language. Identity is much more than about speaking a language..heck I can learn swahili if I wanted to by going to a crash course..but how does it change me as a person or my identity if I am a nobody in a crowd of 10 people?
My whole point is that the persons I listed have national & international identities unique to themselves based on their accomplishments in various walks of life. Imagine running into a total stranger from Romania in Vancouver and that guy asks me "Are you from India?" when I replied yes..he rattles off about how he likes Amitab Bacchan movies. You think peole care what his (Amitab's) origins are or what his mother tongue is etc? An Amitabh can't be a Roger Binny/Kirmani or vice verca no matter whether Amitabh started speaking pure Kannada nor if Binny/Kirmani started speaking pure UP hindi. It is totally besides the point whether all the people I listed take pride in speaking a language or not or take pride in being from a particular state or not.
As far as the summary of this thread goes I see only 1 summary -> how do we strengthen laws and close out loopholes so that prompt action is taken against goons who attacke women in the name of moral policing. Such goons should be given strictest punishment without bail. So, how de we improve the judicial process to achieve this? How do we improve the tools available to enforce the laws already available and catch the culprits.
Hey Mr. Murali.. naa helodu
Hey Mr. Murali.. naa helodu kelu.. neevalla hitlerru.. beda ee gallu-geelu
Well Mister Murali - there have been several attempts you've made to project your strong arm in Praja discussions, but do you really have the gall or whatever to substantiate your stance?
I wonder who ever told you I was contesting "your" opinions over here. Why would I waste my time on such a thing? I am expressing my opinion, mind you! And the opinion is clear, which is exactly what I summarized over here. Now you dont like that? Dont crib about that here. This is not the place to do that. I wished to summarize my PoV here, and hoped people talk about it, so that we had more focus in the discussion.
But it is unfortunate that you seem to be taking everything, including the blogs you trigger here, personally. And why not, eh!? You seem to be writing everything only because you're so glad it featured on another of your favourite media, a TV channel this time! Loop closed, isnt it? English media write, you comment, and get reflected in another patriot english media channel! Are we to just sing songs in praise of this loop, or can Praje also express their own opinions here?
In fact the point I have been emphasising here is all about the fallacy in the law to enforce only English number plates, till date. And we need an amendment against that. It might be Saugata or whoever today writing in the English media after their incedent, but who wrote about many other incedents which might have happened in places where no one knew English, and the number plates containing no Kannada was the primary cause for agony? This one eye closed attitude, and the lack of ability to think broad among you, and some of your blind followers shows you need a wake up call over here. If being awake is one important criterion over here on Praja, then you actually deserve to be subject to that decision - whatever it be!
In fact, in your initial writing, you boldly claim that most of the number plates in Bengaluru are in Kannada only - and conveniently link to your own piece of work, a gem isnt it? What a self-proclamation this is, and how loose is this talk, eh? Try and be creative. Present some evidence that can be believed. And then stake claim over the strong arm.
-Nijavaada
troubled by questions?
@ Vinay,
I've been hearing about your questions very often nowadays.. and I think it might be reasonable to address them so as to not preclude you from commenting reasonably otherwise.
So for the convenience of all audience here, please list down all the questions that you had for me, and I shall surely put in an effort to reply to each and every such question. Now if you will, please pass on the list, however you like. But lets have it, right here, on Praja. You choose the thread.
-Nijavaada
enough, alva!?
Lets see if we have the maturity to end this discussions right here. I wont close this with any summary, vaada or vivaada. Nor will we request the admins to "close" this thread for comments. Lets just agree that we have all said that we wanted to, we have gottedn down to you said this and I said that type mode, and lets let the emotions surface somewhere else, later on some other thread.
Hope to see this type of debate in person in some conference we'd organize someday in a format that would provide the freedom as well as some ground rules for engaging debates. God willing, and with more help from our smart and mature members here, we will do that and even better stuff on-ground at Praja.in.
cheers.