Dear Sir,
Recently most of the important roads of Bangalore have been made double roads.
As part of that, "Road Dividers" have been placed in the middle of roads, so that the traffic gets streamlined.
This is a welcome move and helps.
But, the way these "Dividers" have been built is causing lot of problems.
I live on Kanakapura Road and I was travelling near 7th Block Jayanagar at around 8 PM.
The street lights on that road doesn't give enough visibility during nights.
And hence it was almost dark.
All of a sudden, I saw somebody standing in the middle of the road, that too it was only few meters from me.
Since, there was not much traffic at that moment, I was able to turn my car to left and avoid hitting the figure and then slowed down my car.
To my surprise, I saw a lady trying to cross the road and she had a small kid in her hand.
Since the road divider is almost 1.5 feet high, she was finding it difficult to cross and hence she was standing in the middle of the road.
I have also experienced the difficulty while crossing the Kanakapura Road.
The divider is very high and also narrow.
So, we cannot stand on that and if I try to jump in a hurry, I might fall down.
And traffic will be coming in both the directions and I am afraid to stand on one side of the divider.
I don't know, why such high dividers have been made and why these people haven't thought about the public (especially ladies with kids and elderly people).
Either the divider has to be widened, so that people can stand in the middle before crossing the other part.
Or crossing bays should be introduced every 50 meters where the hight is reduced and divider is widened and people can easily cross the road.
Otherwise, there could be accidents and people might lose their precious life and authorities might open their eyes after that.
Regards,
Narendra
"Road Dividers" or "Walls"?
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crossing bays..??
Ask the authorities and they will tell you that only vehicles have the right of way on roads and damn those pedestrians!
The walls has been put with the intent of coverting our roads into race tracks btwn one signal to the other..
It is suggested that people use vehicles to get across roads for their own safety! :P
Jokes apart...we did discuss this long ago on Praja..
http://bangalore.praja.in/discuss/forums/2009/02/btrac-road-divider-menace
Understanding High Road Dividers
Hi Narendra,
Your points are all valid. However let me try and explain from ACP Mr. Soods perspective.
The two way traffic needs a divider no doubt about it. This divider could be just a marker painted on the road so that it helps people not to drive on the wrong side of the road with disastrous consequences. An actual physical divider is necessary at junctions discouraging people from causing hold up by occupying the entire width of the road.
The “high divider all through concept” is simple. These will have designated Pedestrian crossings. The Pedestrians will be forced to cross at designated pedestrian crossings only which are slightly raised above the road level. These are about 3 to 4 ft wide. The high dividers are broken at these pedestrian crossings, to facilitate them. The problem is all these modules are not yet in place. Once when all the pedestrian crossings are in place things will be clear. These new Pedestrian crossings will also serve as speed breakers too, for motor vehicles. The current practice of providing non standard humps as speed breakers should be prohibited forth with.
I strongly feel that non standard methods in road design, should be avoided. BDA should employ enough good qualified Architects specialized in town planning in future. Let us not be naive about this.
PSA
Higher dividers to prevent unauthorised pedestrian crossing
The high divider came to be, because all other forms of dividers failed. Painted lines failed miserably, even the low dividers were easily damaged and in fact became hazards after being smashed by cars and unscrupulous residents.
Very frankly roads are meant for vehicles. Footpaths are for pedestrians. It is becuase both break the rules there is chaos on both the roads and the footpaths.
Pedestrians have no right to just cross where they feel like, and by the same measure vehicles should not be allowed on the footpaths.
The other day, my wife was on the footpath and in the rush hour a motorcyclist came roaring down the footpath. She stood her ground and despite the glaring of the motorcyclist, made him get off the footpath and on to the road. Once she did that the rest of the pedestrians joined her in making other motorcyclists get off the footpath.
Fight for our legitimate rights and all will support, but whine about a woman endangering her child crossing in a place she does not have the right to, I say, slap her for child endangerment first, then worry about crossings.
Incidentally, reading the comments. A pedestrian crossing every 50 meters ? Think about it and how impractical it is from the vehicular perspective. A vehicle travelling at a measly 36km/h will cover 50 meters in 50 seconds. Slowing/Stopping/accelarating every 50 seconds. We all will die from pollution instead.
Similarly, a 4 feet wide crossing ? On one hand we complain about lack of lane discipline. What is a vehicle to do when it comes to the "crossing" ? Change lanes ? that too every 50 meters?
We should instead be venting our pressure on BBMP who has been sitting on the escalator based Skywalks for over 2 years now. There are plenty of private developers who will spend the 2 Crore in return for the advertising rights.
Friends let us be practical in our efforts. Let us put effort which results in tangible positive results, even if it is not our final goal. Small steps towards the final goal are the need of the hour, along with less talk and more walk.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Words in the mouth
Ask Mr Sood and he will tell you that only vehicles have the right of way on roads and damn those pedestrians
We did ask him, and he didnt say that. He was instrumental in getting pelican lights installed all along the road to the airport, i dont think you have either met him or talked to him.
Asking for more ped crossing i belive is better asking for destruction of dividers. BBMP/BCP should have a process for citizens to apply for ped crossings and getting it approved based on parameters laid out for putting up the crossings.
Qualified talented Architects specialized in Town Plannig
High and sturdy dividers are required. That is the truth. What is wrong with raised pedestrian crossings which also act as speed breakers? Leave the detail design to architects please. Let them decide where these are to be put and how wide they should be etc. These are the details best worked out by people qualified to do the job. Of course they have the knowledge to satisfy people like you Devesh whose demands are genuine, may be high too. Employ the best paying them attractive salaries, commensurate with their contribution. The Bangalore’s road network needs to be scientifically planned, built and maintained properly. Our town planners may be outdated and with precious little output. Hence the set up needs to be revamped probably.
This is all possible with a capable honest and hard working government devoid of any corruption. This is a tall order indeed.
PSA
Sood is good..?
So be it..changed my post..apologies on my ignorance!
However, all we are asking is ped crossings in the midst of unending stretches of tall dividers..so that our elderly folks and ladies with kids are not subjected to pain of travelling long distances to just get across the street!
Theres no mention of distruction of dividers..though i would have luved a city where there are no barricades of any sense..might take another 100 yrs in blr i think!
Crossings near bus stops..atleast one 150 mts apart..is that too big to ask?
Quite appropriate
Crossings near bus stops..atleast one 150 mts apart..is that too big to ask?
No if it makes sense we should ask for it and get it. I dont know about 150mts but definitely near bus stops given that we want to encourage people to walk and use PT.
Free for all
Ask the authorities and they will tell you that only vehicles have the right of way on roads and damn those pedestrians!
In a way they are right. Vehicles have ROW on roads and Peds on Sidewalks/footpaths. Unfortunately we use both interchangably.
peds crossing..
I was referring to the peds crossing or trying to cross the street..cos thats what this post was about I guess..
Its a different question if footpaths are at all available for peds..cos they are a parking place for the cars and other vehicles!
Zebra xing is ped facility
If ROW is for vehicles only
Please remember Peds have ROW on ped xing since it is a ped facility. A zebra crossing is not "A" road it is "ON A" road but it is a ped facility. So when people are using it they have right of way and cars have to stop.
its also a matter of
its also a matter of timing.
rationally spread out pedestrian crossings should have been put in place simultaneously as the high road dividers were installed. so that the transition to a more diciplined use of the road was easier.
its also a matter of dicipline of motorists and pedestrians. the former have got used to might is right and pedestrians, to doing as they please. though, with non existant footpaths and cars parking on the existing ones, pedestrians have very little choice.
i honestly feel that in the interest of road safety, the nexus beween driving schools & RTOs should be investigated and squashed and all indian drivers should be asked to requaify for a DL over a period of 3 years, with more stringent driving tests, laws and strict complaince. as long as getting a DL is the joke it is today, indian roads will continue to be dangerous for drivers and pedestrians. according to a BBC docu i saw last week called "dying to go to school" india has the highest number of fatal road accidents in the world !! with high fatalities among children. i am not surprised at the stats but what does surprise me is that we indians do precious little about improving the situation.
RTO is absent from the party
RTOs should be investigated and squashed and all indian drivers should be asked to requaify
I agree and have always maintained that till the time RTO comes to the party we are going no where. Before requalification of drivers they need to get their act together.
Come on guys
The dividers have helped streamline traffic. They have a minimum width standard - they are not putting them up on 2 lane narrow roads.
In fact, when they first started - and some folks complained - I notice that they have started putting a step (sort of copping of this divider "wall" to lowr its height) every x meters or at every intersection to make it easy for people to hope over.
Blindly taking the side of pedestrians is not fair - habits have to change al around - peds or vehicles. Can't cross roads everywhere. Of course, ther are excuses - crossing points need to be marked well, footpaths are not good on both sides to people cross over to the side where they can walk better etc. But the way ahead would mean somethings will happen before others.
Some people are now complaining about having to go far to take U turns as well. Come on. Well, too bad. If we have to cut entropy on roads, some streamlining has to happen. Individual interests win = group loses, everyone loses. Group interests = we all win. Traffic is a game like that - I think we have beaten this philosophical talk to death here.
My only complain is - upgrade in pedestrian facilities is not happening at the same pace. The reason - BTRAC is only traffic (but includes some ped amenities like zebra paint, pelican lights etc). Wish there was a program like that to just upgrade pavements.
Please join the swabhimana project (find it on this site).- we must put some pressure for serious investments in pedestrian amenities. Mr Sood wouldn't be able to do it, he'd point to BBMP.
Walls not enough, fort-walls needed
There is this stretch from Sita circle to hosakerehalli Cross (near Girinagar/Katriguppe), where dividers were put up recently. I use the road regularly, and found that the dividers had brought about some order to the traffic flow. More importantly, it assured me safety on the road from the gaint buses hurling down from the oppposite side. Naturally, I was very happy about the development.
Last month, I had to go a car mechanic on the same road and drove to the garage. To my surpise, the garage had moved from there to another place 50 mts away, but on the other side of the road. So, to 'tavel' the 50 mts, I had to go to way from end of the stretch to another, just to take a U-turn. For a 50 mts distance, I had to drive for a 1km!!
These experiences are not specific to me. Very few people can/will appreciate positives arising out of a change. Most find only negatives. And for the lady who was crossing the road, she would have crossed there even if three feet median is installed!!
Btw, SB,
I agree that a BTRAC-like program to upgrade ped facilities would be useful. But, without any project/program branding, we are witnessing a good upgrade to Storm water drains and pavements. Cant understand why the BBMP is not keen on other forms of ped facilities, except footpaths!!
-Srivatsava V
-Srivatsava V
Cant understand why the
Cant understand why the BBMP is not keen on other forms of ped facilities, except footpaths!!
because the BBMP, or any other "authority" , even the government leaders are made up of the same people who make up the polity, the city, state, the country. so if we are a chaotic, anarchic, indiciplined lot how can we excpect diferent from our adminstrators??
to be fair, each govt dept does its job, to a large extent, but because of poor or lack of coodination, we sometimes see a newly laid road dug up a week later by BESCOM or BSNL or....and come the rains, or even heavy traffic, the road is in shambles, but repairs have to wait for next years budget..
same with the high dividers. if it was addressed as an integrated "road safety" issue and not a separate traffic and pedestrian issue, we would have seen better results. one would imagine that our admistsrtaors would have wised up by now, that only an integrated approach can save this city and save time and money too!
but first we indians have to realise that we have to reform our self serving, indisiplined and myopic ways of co-existing. an enlightened public will throw up enlightened adminstarators , better leaders.
sorry SB, this philosophical talk cannot stop until we internaiize the philosphy :-)
Pedestrians don't need road humps at the place of crossings
I think, you are thinking of putting up road humps at each of these places.
But, why do we need road humps.
Pedestrians need some place to stand in the middle of the road for a 2-3 seconds and cross the road safely. They don't need road humps.
Even if road humps are placed, pedestrians will have to wait till all the vehicles go.
So, road humps don't do any good and are not needed on main roads.
So, having crossing bay every 50 mts is practicle, right?
Yes, vehicles of ROW on roads and pedestrians have to walk on footpaths.
But, people will have to cross the road and they cannot go for 1 KM to take U-Turn and come back.
I don't know if we can have so many sky walks.
Take for example Kanakapura Road.
The dividers start from Yediur and go upto Doddakallasandra. This is approximately 8-10 KMs.
So, how many skywalks can you have - 5 or 10?
Even if we put 10 skywalks, that will be 1 for every KM.
Now suppose I want to cross the road at Yelachenahalli. But the skywalk is 1 KM away.
So, do you expect me to walk 1 KM, climb the skywalk, then climb down and then walk back 1KM!?
Is this really practicle?
I think, these type of solutions are being given by people who don't walk much and who don't cross roads much.
If you really want to experience the difficulty of people crossing the dividers, please cross one such road. You must choose a busy place such as Banashankari and then have first hand experience.
Those who are supporting the cause of high-dividers, please tell me whether you have really crossed these and seen how much difficult it is?
If you have experienced it, then think of elderly people and ladies with small kids!!
If we don't put up crossing bays, then that means we are inviting trouble and waiting for some accidents to open our eyes.
-Narendra
Midblock ped xing
The logic for ped xings being you always arrive at a spot in the road via a junction so xings are provided at junctions (anywhere a sidewalk intersects another). Typically in downtown areas where junctions are not further apart, ped xings are only at junctions. Mid block xings are provided only where the junctions are further apart. Read this for how midblock ped xings are determined. Typically mid block is provided if junctions are more than 300mtrs apart.
Few thoughts
First lets look at IRC guidance / some facts -
I want to finish by sharing my disgust at the idea of slapping the woman with a child. It is like saying Hitler was good as his war made the empire weak and we won our freedom. It is like saying someone deserved to get raped because that person was wearing a skirt. How many here can assure this woman that by walking 15 minutes to the nearest junction she is any safer? Who stops behind stop lines, all vehicles land well beyond zebra waiting to go when it it hits amber. What about those free left turns and those that drive past red lights, not to mention those driving on wrong side.
The other day, a man got out of his car, slapped a BEST bus driver in Mumbai for cutting across and then took a gun out and fired in the air in Mumbai!! I am not defending a BEST driver, but media suggested bus drivers are 'awful' etc - well look around, what % educated driver is driving as per rules?
If the woman can be slapped, perhaps we should agree that all pedestrians are given AK47s. Last month, 30 people dies on Pune roads, the rate is now higher than 1 death a day - what are we waiting for...................our roads are a lottery..................the probabality of one of us knowing someone who died on the roads is getting higher by the day.
So, let's set emotions aside, we have a fair set of IRC norms, even getting those in place will help. And I completely agree, RTA has to stop dishing out licenses to anyone who can operate a clutch-accelarator.
ASJ
www.driving-india.blogspot.com
www.driving-india.blogspot.com
We should not compare Bangalore to other cities
We have more pedestrian population than many other cities.
On most of the roads, the junctions don't come every 300-500 meters.
Also, expecting a person to walk 0.5KM - 1 KM for just crossing a road is asking for too much.
Then, we cannot expect them to follow rules and they find all ways to violate rules.
When we are talking about improving road quality and driving discipline, we also should think about pedestrians.
If we don't do that, then we can be sure that the rules will be broken.
PEDESTRIANS FACILITIES
It is cruel to the elderly and women to make them walk long distances to find a Zebra crossing. As some one has pointed out the facilities should be designed by those who walk and cross the roads, even as the Bus facilities have to be decided taking into account the requirements of Bus commuters (not by those who never travel by buses).
K.V.Pathy
Dont want ped xings???
We cannot compare Bangalore with Western cities where only very few walk.
Wrong! Most european cities have as many pedestrians as we have on our roads but they use pedestrian crosswalks.
Increase in number of people walking does not mean you let everybody walk anywhich where. How can we come up with excuses to justify chaos? So if I understand right all the complaints here is to allow people to cross roads wherever we want and dont need ped xings?
Ped Xings
But sufficient crossing points should be provided so that safe crossing is possible. Priority should be for pedestrians in the city roads, not for vehicles which should be drastically slowed down. In fact all one ways should be eliminated to help pedestrians and bus commuters.
Pathy
choice of roads for dividers..
As SB mentioned they are not picking on roads with two lanes for the dividers..is this enough!?
An example is 36th cross jayanagar..that road near the telephone exchange hardly has any traffic ..still it has these tall dividers in the middle..why?
We get down from the 20th floor pent house and get out in swanky cars 15 min late to a meeting and curse the poor pedestrian trying to cross the road..knees shaking cos of arthritis and scared cos of the blurred vision..
and what do we do..put a road divider tall enough so that the senior generation stays put at home..to live a dipressed lives till they bite dust..
And now we go further to put up high humps in the name of pedestrians..is that gonna stop the racing dudes..i bet it takes one run on those to judge the speed needed to glide over them..leaving the peds wondering what use the glorified humps are anyway!
Again, no objections on having these dividers on arterial roads..but please do not plant them anywhere and everywhere..!
Coming to ped xings/pelicans/humps..what ever..is it right to think that a population which needed a hard concrete wall to prevent jumping lanes will ever act so civilized to stop for a pedestrian!?
If at all they were to stop..then we didnt need the dividers too!
I kinda appreciate Obama for his anti blr talk..atleast hope that stops the madness in this city!
Again no ped xing
no objections on having these dividers on arterial roads..but please do not plant them anywhere and everywhere..!
Again you are asking for license to cross anywhere and everywhere and NOT at a pedestrian crossing. On 36th cross jayanagar, where do you need a zebra crossing? Identify the spots and make a case for it.
I kinda appreciate Obama for his anti blr talk..atleast hope that stops the madness in this city!
No, madness will stop when people realize the need to have pedestrian facilities and proper ped crossings. All I see is request for status quo.
All it needs is ..
Sri, all it needs is a "low" point every now and then (50 meters enough?) for people to cross. The notion that you can cross anywhere and everywhere can't stay.
Making people cross roads at designated points makes things safer for them as well - there can be signs, lights etc to warn vehicles.
The battle should be for better pavements, zebra marks on roads, and frequent "low" points on these new dividers.
I see that new speed breakers do make most people slow down. Let me try fly over them at 40+ kph tomorrow and see how that feels. I bet not many are doing it.
Only people who don;t slow down are those racing bikers - they would go to the "edge" of the road where there is usually a small gap between hump and the pavement. Width is just enough to fit a regular bike tyre, and many manage it well.
My observations alone may not point to a trend, but most accidents I have seen "live" on city roads recently (the non-fatal, medium speed ones) have involved bikes. Bike - ped, bike - auto, two bikes, bike- car/bus side brush etc - 5-6 accidents I have seen tell me that some bikers just hate to use their brakes.
Why not meet Mr.Sood?
Narendra, others,
I have seen a few stretches of these dividers. Kanakapura Road, Kothanur Road, Elephant Rock Road.
One good thing is that they cannot be removed by hand. The earlier design was one where local residents used to just take out concrete blocks and place them randomly - imagine a car or twowheeler hitting one of these at even 40 kmph (rain + BESCOM switiching off street lights makes this highly probable).
However the traffic police or the contractors executing this have not made provisions for people to cross frequently enough. Elephant Rock road e.g. has not a break from 9th Main till South End (this was the case 2 weeks back). Are people expected to walk to either South End or 9th Main to cross? Given our penchant for short cuts we would rather risk our lives climbing over even Mt Everest than going round it :)
If you and others collect data on the lack of pedestrian crossings, we can set up a meeting with Mr.Sood. Contrary to what some might have commented above, he is sensitive to pedestrian needs. He cannot be everywhere all the time either. If there is a problem with the execution, we can certainly point it out to him. I can set up a meeting with him in a month.
We absolutely need pedestrian crossings and better pedestrian facilities.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Right way to look at problem
However the traffic police or the contractors executing this have not made provisions for people to cross frequently enough
This is how we need to phrase our requirement. We need ped xings at adequate intervals on streets regardless of dividers existing or not. ASJ's post shows how the long elephant rock road should be provisioned with zebra crossings.
Mixed use misuse
The Traffic Engg Cell of
The Traffic Engg Cell of BBMP, under the instructions of the Traffic Police, has completed 96 such pedestrain crossings out of the targetted 384. The traffic police have identified the areas. Check this report in TOI.
Perhaps if you approach the jurisdictional traffic ACP, and represent to him through the local RWA, more can be added.
Muralidhar Rao
Re: Why not meet Mr.Sood?
Please let me know, what type of data do you need and in what form?
-Narendra
Meeting Mr. Sood
I am interested to join.
K.V.Pathy
More pedestrian crossings
We need to take care of pedestrians , I think that has to be the number one priority.
But I definitely agree with putting the dividers as unfortunately we do not seem to understand otherwise. As has been stated previously if it is an easy to remove divider or a small one it is very conveniently removed or used by bikes etc.
We also need one more thing which has not been discussed much and that is execution.
Can we as Praja members organise a traffic awareness camp where we train both drivers on pedestrians about basic traffic rules.
I know most people would not know it but it helps to have a camp.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Regards,
Nishant
We are not apposing the "dividers"
I am not against installation of dividers.
They are needed and help in streamlining the traffic.
And it should be a solid block, so that it cannot be moved or removed.
And the vehicles (especially bikes, schooters) should not be able to jump over them.
Now, even though this is a good initiative, it should not be a hindrance to people who walk/cross the roads.
I live on Kanakapura Road (near the Ring road junction).
Here the divider is nearly 2 ft high and runs for nearly 0.5KM without break.
And I see a cement store one one side of the road and they have a godown on the other side.
I have observed that a worker in that store keeps crossing the road to get cement bags from the godown to the store.
Now do you expect him to walk 0.5KM every time with the cement stock?
There are many apartments on this road and there is a Pizza Hut.
So, are we asking the people in this apartment to walk till the signal (which is 0.25 KMs) to cross the road and walk back (0.25 KM) to the Pizza Hut?
Is this practicle?
Daily I see people struggling to jump over this divider. I have seen women standing on the divider and trying to balance without falling!!
Note that this divider is very narrow and there is no space to stand on it.
Kanakapura Road is a very busy road with lots of buses, cars and lorries plying on it.
So, this is very dangerous and should be corrected at the earliest.
If you want to keep the height, then atleast increase the width, so that somebody can stand on it comfortably.
Or reduce its height, so that it can be crossed easily.
Or introduce 2-3 pedestrian crossing bays in a span of 0.5 KMs.
To conclude:
This is a very good initiative and should be continued.
But, this should not cause agony or discomfort to pedestrians.
Regards,
Narendra
Road dividers and pedestrian crossings
Road dividers should have gaps at every bus stop to enable bus commuters from one side of the road to cross over to the bus stop/ shops/work places on the other side.
There should also be pedestrian crossings at more locations as needed with scientifically built speed breakers. The road dividers at such locations should have two/three gaps only wide enough for pedestrians with zig zag posts to avoid two wheelers.
K.V.Pathy