BIA, HAL dispute carries on
Saturday July 5 2008 09:56 IST
http://newindpress.com/Ne...
Monica Jha
BANGALORE: The latest survey conducted by the Airports Authority of India (AAI), on the passenger handling capacity of the two airports in Bangalore, indicates that there is just a minor difference in the capacities of the two airports, contrasting BIAL's claims.
The annual capacity of the HAL Airport has been found to be 6.5 million for domestic and 1.5 million for international passengers, the total capacity of the airport being 8 million.
However, the HAL Airport, if used only for domestic flight operations, can handle 9 million passengers per annum, the report says.
The capacity of Bengaluru International Airport (BIA) is reported to be 9.87 million. The annual air passenger traffic in Bangalore for 2007-08 was 10.12 million, more than BIA's reported capacity.
Earlier, Bangalore International Airport Limited (BIAL) had told the High Court that the actual capacity of the HAL Airport is 3.5 million, whereas that of BIA is 14 million.
The BIA website, on the other hand, reads: 'The current airport infrastructure is designed to handle over 11 million passenger movements annually.'
BIAL has been maintaining that BIA has the capacity to handle Bangalore’s air traffic and that the city does not need two airports.
BIAL, reportedly, has written to the Ministry of Civil Aviation to register its disagreement on the reported capacity of both the airports.
However, the difference in the reported capacities of the old and the new airport has raised many eyebrows.
The main reason for developing a Greenfield airport (BIA) in Bangalore was the capacity constraints of the existing (HAL) airport. HAL Airport was closed for commercial operations with BIA's commissioning on May 24 this year.
Doubts about the capacity of the new airport, therefore, raises questions about BIA's exclusive status in Bangalore. In view of the report, the new airport does not seem to be capable of coping with the growing air traffic in Bangalore, while the infrastructure at the HAL Airport is not being used efficiently.
Earlier, the HAL Airport, the people and the industries had suggested many options (domestic/ short haul/ small aircraft) to retain commercial operations at HAL Airport.
The High Court of Karnataka and the Supreme Court have also given directions about exploring the possibilities of renegotiations between BIAL and the Ministry of Civil Aviation, on keeping HAL Airport open for commercial operations.
BIAL Capacity only 9.87 million passengers ?
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How is terminal passenger capacity calculated
There is an international airport terminal design reference manual. In the manual it specifies the minimum space per peak hour domestic passenger should be 25 sq. mtr. For international it is more. That is used to arrive at the final annual figure.
More luxurious terminals like Changi, HKIA, etc., have 80+ 90+ sq. mtr. per peak hour passenger. Even DIAL T3 which is being prepared for the 2010 Commonwealth games is slated for 54 sq. mtr.
BIAL has dedicated so much space to retail that their passenger capacity is below what Bangalore achieved for year end March 2008.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Are HAL Numbers correct ?
Do the capacity numbers that are being flushed out by AAI are true w.r.t HAL? Can experts vouch for the correctness of this w.r.t capacity at HAL? Does any data exists in public forums or with the industry chambers about the HAL airport terminal area like that exists for BIAL and RGIA airports in terms of square foot area dedicated for checkin counters, Immigration and Customs area, Departure and Arrival area, baggage area etc?
If the reported HAL capacity is true, I think it is not exaggeration to accept BIAL's claim of 14.5 Millions?
On another note, when a news report came out on the AAI being satisfied with BIAL facilities, it was outright rejected saying " I think this is an attempt by vested interests to scuttle the report even before it is prepared and submitted." The report is available @ http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE120080623223536&Page=1&Title=Bangalore&Topic=0
The information source seems to same media " New India Press".
I wish we had carried the " Keep HAL Open" like campaign tempo for other urgently needed infrastructure projects like Skywalks, Signal Free intersections, NICE and BETL etc.
Syed
This report is bogus
This report appears to be be an attempt by some vested interest group to distort the truth.
Obviously the report is trying to extend the HAL capacity beyond its limits and trying to marginalize BIAL's capacity as much as it can, If HAL's capacity is 9 mil, then how can BIAL's capacity be just 9.85 mil. Is this a joke?
Reason du jour for keeping HAL airport open
This report tastes like old unpalatable wine in a new bottle (being an oenophile Devesh I am sure will like this analogy!). Yet another excuse for keeping HAL airport open appears to be another red herring like the connectivity issue.
Syed, you are right on the money with your observation that there are so many other issues for the thought leaders in Bangalore to champion. I expressed my frustrations in mid-May in an entry in my blog (http://abengalurustateofmind.blogspot.com/) under the title "What a Quandary!".
On a side note, on Skyscrapercity.com I had also asked the following question to those that champion the HAL cause -- "has there been any characterization of the business impact of the negative sentiments in the investor community as a result of the government playing fast and loose with the BIAL contract and if so what is the consensus?". I think this question may have been sidestepped!
Calculation details?
Have to poke a few holes in this one.
a. The space needed also depends on how much time a person spends inside the terminal. Let us say at peak hour 2500 people flow through the terminal. If they spend only 45 minutes inside the terminal, we will need only 3/4*2500 or space for about 1875 people. If they spend 2 hrs you need space for 5000 people.
b. Arriving and departing passengers need different amount of space. Arriving domestic passengers spend very little time at the airport (average 15-20 mins) and certainly don't need 25m2 per passenger. Most of the time is spent around baggage belts. This assymetry means that one cannot take the total space and divide it by peak hour load. We need to approach it a bit differently - I have tried to outline it below.
If 10 million use the airport we can assume 5 million arrive and 5 million depart each year. Or about 15000 depart and 15000 arrive. Let us say domestic departures are 75% of this or about 11000. This is over probably 18 hours. Let us say there are 6 peak hours that take 50% of this load or about 5500 passengers over the 6 peak hours. 1000-1250 people/hr in the peak hour period. Which means about 400-450/hr at non-peak hours. If they spend 1.5 hrs inside the terminal you need space for about 1500 people at peak hours. One needs to see how much time they spend at check-in and beyond security because these two areas cannot be aggregated. And so on and so forth
c. What is 25m2 of terminal space. Is it gross terminal space? Or net of toilets, retails shops, restaurants, etc. I would seriously wonder why a person needs to have 250 sqft of space to himself and at peak hours.
d. Finally does HAL capacity include the space outside the domestic terminal where I among a hundred others used to queue up for baggage screening? :)
e. Not to shoot the messenger here, but even to a layman like me, to claim that HAL terminal can handle as many passengers as BIAL sounds absurd. The other thing they forget is the landside capacity of BIAL and HAL. A terminal is not just the building but also include landside facilities.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
HAL Capacity
HAL capacity is accurate. I have documents issued by AAI New Delhi.
The capacity is calculated as per the International Airport Terminal Design Reference Manual. I forget, but I think this is an ICAO standards document.
BIAL terminal is definitely bigger than HAL, but BIAL's capacity is diminished, because of their excessive dedication to retail and other non-passenger movement space. The minimum movement area acceptable is 25m2 per passenger. From there you can derive the per hour passenger capacity. Most airports in India have a 6 hour peak. 6am - 10am and 6pm - 8pm. During these 6 hours an airport typically carries 45% of its daily passenger load. From this a daily, monthly, and annual capacity can be derived.
The 9.87 million figure is being floated around as the AAI audited figures. On July 18th, the next hearing date of the PIL, if MoCA puts the AAI report in front of the judge, we will know.
I agree with you. Ultimately, it is citizen pressure by increased participation that counts.
Silkboard, Yajman and others are creating the forum for us to meet electronically. It is important to translate our keystrokes into on the ground action.Participation and contribution at individual level has to back-up our posted views.
I am sure, your experiences in the US, have shown you the sheet power of grassroots efforts.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Need numbers for capacity comparison !
Devesh,
I am being skeptical on HAL capacity Vs BIAL capacity. Can you share that data with Praja community if it is not private, the basis for HAL capacity to be 9 million including peak hour capacity? Also for a informed discussion, if you could dole out the comparison data for 2 airports (HAL Vs BIAL):
1. Checkin Area
2. Domestic and International Departure area
3. Domestic and International arrival area
4. Any other square footage area that counts towards the determination of capacity
On a different note, FYI, I am more involved in grassroot level initiatives in B'lore than US.
Regards,
Syed
Comparison
That document is being worked on, but, I must stress, we must not compare the two airports directly. They represent two very different approaches. Both are equally good.
A Maruti 800 is a car and so is a Mercedes Benz S Class. They represent two very different philosophies, and both sell well at a global level.
Ultimately any product/service is measured on 4 basic parameters. Quality, Cost, Delivery, Service. These 4 produce the VFM (Value For Money) proposition that any consumer bases his/her decision on.
In my humble opinion, choice is the key to our salvation.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Capacity determination !
Devesh,
All that I am looking for is what is the square footage area available for tdetermining the peak hour capacity. In fact only the annual passenger numbers are being doled out without giving the exact peak hour capacity numbers for HAL. Numbers for BIAL is readily available for public where as the numbers for HAL airport (so called Public entity) is harldy available in any public forums. May be public here means the previliged ones only. In any case I would like to see comparison numbers without being forced to accept the capacity jargons.
Syed
Brunners version
What is the annual passenger-handling capacity? What are your expansion plans?
Infrastructure at an airport is not designed to an annual capacity, but to a peak hour demand. Under the present traffic scenario, Bengaluru International Airport can easily handle the traffic for the next 2-3 years. During this time, we want to realize the next expansion.
more here http://www.indiainfoline.com/news/showleader.asp?storyId=654&lmn=1
makes sense...
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
I have to agree with Mr.Brunner
What Mr.Brunner is saying make sense. Most of the Airports in US are closed during the night.I belive SYD also has similiar restrictions.
Anyways even my 10-year old can figure out that HAL capacity is not same as BIAL. This report is just a farce to undermine BIAL. Looks like someone is trying to propogate this false report hoping for the media to pick it up.
SSC?
SSC - SkyScraperCity'
SSC stands for "SkyScraperCity' - Another online forum.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1249
BIAL to HAL - Reduce your capacity, I will reduce mine .........
I am sure you have heard this joke many times before. For the health wise, here it goes once again,
2 friends started bragging. One said, recently he went to USA for his grandson's "MUNDAN' (Shaving of the Head - First Time). His son organized a big Party and lot of food was ordered and among them was a big Truck size "LADDU". A crane had to be used for dropping it on the ground and a power saw had be used for cutting it. He literally had to use a ladder to climb on it and cut it.
By this his friend understood that he is just lying and bragging. He then started telling his side that he once came accross a mountain size watermelon. He was so perplexed with its size, he too climbed on to the top of this water melon. Suddenly he slipped and fell inside the water melon. Inside the water melon, he seemed lost. When he started to walk inside the water melon, he met 2 pserons wearing Khaki dresses. he asked them who are they and what are they doing here? They told him that they are Driver and a conductor searching for their Bus which fell in it last week.
The first one realize that this just a bragging story and told his friend that the water melon can not be so big. The second one replied, you reduce your "LADDU" size I will reduce my water melon size.
In our BIAL-HAL capacity context, BIAL is telling HAL, hi downsize your capacity numbers, I will do mine.
Moral of the story is the airport capacity tales are becoming like fairy tales and imaginations.There is saying that, even if lies had to be told, it should appear as if were true.
P. S. Please do not take anything personally.
Syed.
Hi narayan82 ,I wish to
Hi narayan82 ,
I wish to clarify your statement "To me the annual capacity of an airport depends on the average amount of time spent by the user at the airport".
Airport capacity is a highly complex issue which starts right from the approach road in terms of free movement & access of passengers to the terminal, then the way the terminal is designed-all indian airport terminals lacking pier concourses have this problem where passengers after being processed(checkin & security check) have nowhere to go and congregate in a limited area - it is very important to spread them out and keep them moving along concourses to their gates even if they spend just 15 mins in the terminal building. Please look at it this way, in a crowd of 1000 stationary people standing let's say for 10 mins wouldn't you find it difficult to cut your way through the crowd to reach the gate for departure in 6 mins? Delhi airport T2 is notorious for causing delays because passengers cannot get checked in and go to their aircraft in time inspite of arriving 3.5 hours ahead (http://www.gulfnews.com/World/India/10197927.html). We of course have other operational aspects which fall in the landside-to-airside and airside-to-landside areas in terms of how we transfer passengers. In the current BIAL terminal design even if we have 2 runways the terminal will choke. The same single runway airport with well designed - roadways, terminal, aprons, taxiways & ATC operations (revamped aviation rules, efficient departure and approach sequencing) -all of these operating in tandem as a precise, synchornized, well orchestrated ballet dance will drastically increase capacity.
On a general note though... ->
Some may go out of their way to prove BIAL is no good and this includes the theory that it has marginally greater capacity than HAL. A 2 year old would find it hard to believe unless HAL has grown buildings,parking space & roadways overnight. It is even harder to believe these capacity reports coming from AAI an organization that has consistently botched up capacity issues and other airport managment issues given the fact that 4 or 5 aircraft arriving together or departing together in a short span of time is called "congestion" leading to hell & chaos in the terminals. I have made some analysis in http://bialterminal-indian-aviation.blogspot.com/ .It is not well formatted and it does not have fancy charts or inundating data. It is simply the facts about operational problems that have existed in HAL (and similar Indian airports) and will plague BIAL if they don't redesign their terminal irrespective of the 2nd runway. Even 2 runways with bad landside (bad terminal & roadway design) can cripple the airport.
Without politics and with a strong unified vision HAL airport could have been made to come close to Gatwick. That chance came and went a long time back. It is BIA Devenahalli's turn now and I hope they live up to the task overcoming the fact that there are a lot of folks using every bit of available information/fact/statistics to see it derailed and get HAL opened. Using the same approach it won't take more than 10 mins to come up with a list of gross violations by DGCA&AAI to have them shut down, one of the most shocking ones being -> they allowed simlutaneous takeoffs from 2 converging runways in Delhi totally disregarding ICAO stipulations and safety norms. Google it if anybody has doubts. We can in fact start using the same critical fault finding approach to other airports -> CDG (terminal collapse); LAX (Runway incursions) but I guess it is not going to get us anywhere.
There are entire books on airport capacity and if anybody of us could come close to getting it right we would be in the business of building airports. Is any reader on this forum really into the airport building business? If there is then please voice an opinion. All of us can quote ICAO manuals etc. regarding airport design and come up with calculations but the fact is there to see when we go to Internatinal airports abroad..that is when we get to see what a really busy airport is.
Slightly off topic but indirectly related to perceived problems at BIA and why....
Going by the criticisms and the apparent problems being reported in privatized airports like - Mumbai (GVK running into expansion problems), Delhi (utter chaos http://www.gulfnews.com/World/India/10197927.html), BIAL (we have all seen the heavy criticism coming from the "open HAL" quarters) I would definitely question if it is really the problem with these reputed multinationals carrying out the management and work. Well I don't think so, it is more of a systemic failure that we regularly see (NICE corridor being a prime example). Cochin and Hyderabad airports seem to be ok at the moment because the traffic is lower. But once the traffic increases they will also face the similar capacity issues, hyderabad may still fare better because they have separated departure and arrivals vetically in a true sense thus having more space, all that needs to be done is add pier concourses to the terminal building.
Last but not the least, I agree with a previous comment about airport capacities being fairy tales.. in a way.. in the context of the recent AAI's assesment about HAL. I can do better actually, I can convert it into double the capacity just by knocking down some walls to convert the buildings into one huge complex, throw out whatever shops & seats are there, provide folding chairs to seat as many people as possible, the excess people can spill out into the approach road. And what about standards? ..well..to hell with them..let's create our own. This way it doesn't take much to paint a 20plus million passengers per annum figure for HAL.
Capacity
While I completely agree that calculating true airport capacity is a complex matter, I am willing to chew my right arm off if HAL's "real usable" capacity is 9 mil as is being bandied about. No fuzzy math of course!!
My home airport is SJC (San Jose in California) for the past 2 decades. It is not large or fancy and does not impress from the outside but in my opinion is one of the most efficeint airports (with annual traffic > 10M) until 9/11. I used to be able to get in and out of the airport in 15 mins. Now it takes me about 30/40 mins while departing and 15 mins on arrival. I prefer this airport to SFO a much bigger and fancier airport any day of the week. This is what matters to the average traveller. HAL has failed me misably ever single time I have used it, 1 hour just to collect bags on domestic flights! Don't even ask me about international flights!!
On another note, with regard to accuracy of traffic projections, flight cancellations, etc., blaming BIAL seems to be patently unfair. The following article is another indication that this is hapenning world wide, oil being the root cause.
http://www.mercurynews.co...
--amaku
Re: calculation details
s_yajaman,
Hope this helps in the context of the interesting questions you posed regarding calculation details, especially with the peak hour calculations. I had done a comparison of takeoffs between Bangalore and Gatwick In the 1st week of April -
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=21828001#post21828001
It gives an idea of the spread out of traffic at Bangalore. What we call as peak hours for our third busiest airport seems to be a cakewalk for Gatwick. Let us take the 6.00pm to 9.00 pm peak hour period for calculation purposes, with 34 departures between 6 and 9 pm that gives us 11 takeoffs per hour. Lets assume for discusson sake that these are all 737s (worst case but actually there are quite a few ATRs and regional jet Embraers) on domestic routes we get 1870 (assuming avg of 170 passenger&crew per plane worst case). I checked flightstats again just now for the 6.00 pm to 9.00 pm window and we do not have any widebodies taking off so for now let's leave the above number of 1870 as is. For discussion then, let's assume 1870 passengers also arrive in that one hour 1870 (that will not be the ideal case but on an avg. that assumption holds good) so total passengers per hour = 3740 and please remember that this is a worst case scenario given the 34 hour takeoffs between 6 and 9pm as per data available when I drew the HAL/Gatwick comparison in April. BIAL claims 2733 as their peak handling capability and I am off by 1000 passengers extra. Assuming I am right BIAL seem to have fallen short. But, i still feel that their current terminal can handle the traffic but is left gasping for breath. If 1 or 2 international flights or more domestic flights are added in this window it will cause a problem. This is where the terminal expansion with concourses is absolutely required to keep the passengers flowing. As far as air side movements go with 11 takeoffs and 12 landings per hour in that 3 hour time frame we have 23 movements per hour which is still short of the 30 aircraft movements limitation seen in Delhi and Mumbai (http://in.rediff.com/money/2007/apr/21flights.htm) in the context of a single runway with the current rules in place. In a nutshell, with the terminal expanded we can comfortably handle 30 ATMS per hour airside with the associated passengers landside in the terminal. Even if it is not expanded I think it can definitely handle the current traffic. HAL in it's current form without drastic redesign (terminal,apron, taxiways and runways) does not come close to be able to handle this traffic (forget any future growth in traffic, that is out of question).
With an efficient ATC and revamped air traffic rules and technology we can squeeze 40plus ATMs out of the single runway at BIA; Gatwick has 50 (www.seaplane-project.net/resolution/resolution-annex-7.pdf ) with a wide range of aircraft operating (heavies like 747s,777s and smaller aircraft like 320s,737s and even smaller ones like regional jets, turbo props). With 2 runways we can get a mind boggling 65plus movements per hour meaning that we would have to become an intercontinental hub to achieve that kind of traffic. One important point is that BIA is a 24 hour airport unlike LHR which means that we can squeeze out more eficiency. The need of the hour is for different parties to come together to make this 4000 acre airfield into an asset versus it becoming a white elephant.
thanks bialterminal
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
the non passengers
off topic but perhaps related to capacity in a way..
There is a unique issue at Indian airports when compared to international airports abroad. There are a huge number of non passengers who hover around the immediate vicinities of the terminal complex. While I do respect their sentiments of having to send off people I think a line needs to be drawn somewhere because this indirectly affects the perceived capacity, the functionality & safety. I hunted for some videos and the videos tell us how difficult it is to get into the terminal itself. This time, being fair both to AAI and private developers it becomes a challenging task to factor in this extra crowd, and for 900 intl passengers departing on 3 flights I may not be suprised if there are close to an equal number or more outside the terminal. This poses a hindrance to get into the terminal as well as a security risk in the case of fire,explosions etc.
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSavBJCIdjo
Any ideas on what can be done? I think the immediate vicinity of the terminals must be made a no loitering zone. I know that an airport city is coming up but non passengers will still be tempted to linger around the terminal complex in large numbers.
Airport Terminal Design Reference
I think we are all shooting from the hip. There is an International Airport Terminal Design reference manual.
AAI has carried out assessments using the MINIMUM criteria specified i.e. 25m2 per peak hour domestic passenger.
DIAL T3 is being designed at 54m2 per passenger, and luxurious airports like Changi are in the upper 80's, lower 90's.
The AAI team from their planning department are gurus at this, and I am sure, someone from Delhi can obtain the planning document. ICAO has covered all these issues, and they are far more knowledegable than any of us.
I have the FAA version "Airport Terminal Design Reference FAA_150_5360_13.PDF". It is somewhere on the FAA website.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Interview of Mr. Albert Brunner in India Infoline
Mr Albert Brunner, CEO, Bangalore International Airport Project
Jul 08, 2008
Bangalore International Airport Limited (BIAL), the owner and operator of the new Bengaluru International Airport, is a public limited company, registered under the Indian Companies Act. A private-public venture, the project realized so far and the upcoming phases are being built and will be operated by the company for the next 30 years with an option to continue for another 30 years. BIAL is committed to establishing the new Bengaluru International Airport as India’s leading airport in terms of quality and efficiency and set a benchmark for the future commercial development of Indian airports. The new airport is located about 35 kilometers north of the city. This will allow both the city as well as the airport to develop. It is spread over an area of approximately 4000 acres and besides the regular airport services it will offer a hotel, shopping mall, food courts and other convenience amenities in the upcoming project phases.
Albert Brunner, Chief Executive Officer (CEO), Bangalore International Airport Project, is a Civil Engineer by profession and is from Zurich, Switzerland. He has also had postgraduate trainings in business administration. Albert Brunner was appointed as CEO of Bangalore International Airport Limited in 2002. Under his leadership, the Company reached Financial Closure in June 2005 and the construction of the airport began in July 2005. Mr. Albert Brunner has been in the airport business for the last 17 years and has served as a member of the Executive Board of Zurich Airport Authority from 1995.
Replying to Anil Mascarenhas of India Infoline, Albert Brunner, CEO, Bangalore International Airport Project, says, “Operation-wise, we have reached a high level of performance.”
It’s been a month since you started operations. What are some of the recent developments?
The airport is just about a month old or should we say young and encouraging announcements such as the launch of the Deccan Aviation Skylimo (helicopter service to and from the city) on July 01 are taking shape. It is the first of its kind in India.
Four new international airlines have started operations from Bengaluru International Airport since it began operations, due to increased capacity. They are Air Mauritius that began operations on May 27, Tiger Airways on June 01, Oman Air on June 16 and Dragon Air (Subsidiary of Cathay Pacific) on July 02.
Where connectivity is concerned, some of the aspects that have delighted airport users at Bengaluru International Airport include the promptness and efficiency of BMTC Volvo bus services and so far connectivity has not been a block for most passengers. We do realize that the connectivity for the companies situated in the south is still an issue and will work together with the Government of Karnataka to improve the same.
Operation-wise, we have reached a high level of performance. Most of the flights leave on time as long as they arrive on time. This is confirmed by all international airlines and most of the domestic ones as well.
The airport’s design and planning have a lot in store for future expansion. Could you give us an idea about the same?
The Master Plan of the Bengaluru International Airport has been developed to fulfill the need for an operationally efficient and passenger friendly airport for Bangalore. It ensures that the size and capacity of the airport facilities can be gradually expanded based on the passenger and cargo growth.
The Master Plan not only includes provision of premium land for commercial real estate developments such as office parks, retail, entertainment and hospitality but also land reserve for a rail link to the city. The intention of BIAL to develop an Airport City is in line with the increasing attention being paid to ‘Aerotropolises’ globally.
Please elaborate on Aerotropolises.
An Aerotropolis is a city in which the layout, infrastructure and economy are centered around a major airport. Experts in the field are of the opinion that Airports will shape business location and urban development in this century as much as seaports did in the 18th century, railroads did in the 19th century and highways in the 20th century.
We envision the airport city to be a flourishing destination in itself; people will not only come here to take flights but also to relax, do business and shop. It will provide growth giving a strong impact on economy and creation of jobs.
What is the annual passenger-handling capacity? What are your expansion plans?
Infrastructure at an airport is not designed to an annual capacity, but to a peak hour demand. Under the present traffic scenario, Bengaluru International Airport can easily handle the traffic for the next 2-3 years. During this time, we want to realize the next expansion.
The Master Plan of Bengaluru International Airport has been developed to fulfill the need for an operationally efficient and passenger friendly airport for Bangalore. It ensures that the size and capacity of the airport facilities can be gradually expanded based on the passenger and cargo growth. The land at our disposal allows us to develop the airport up to a capacity of approximately 40 million passengers a year.
We are working towards the next expansion phase of the new airport. However, kindly note that we are currently at a planning stage. The work on expansion is in line with our commitment to expand the size and capacity of the airport infrastructure in line with the projected passenger and cargo growth. We will keep you informed as soon as we have some concrete plans to announce.
Given the sharp spike in ATF, have you witnessed a drop in passengers? Many flights, which otherwise used to be full are seeing vacant seats, especially in the business classes. What is your take on the situation?
As of last week, the total number of flights was 1120 (per week). This figure includes both international and domestic flights. In comparison to the first week of operations, there is a 2% reduction in the total number of flights. This is due to a 3% reduction in domestic flights* per week. International flights however have shown a 4% increase (from 134 flights to 140 flights) per week. *Due to operational reasons, Go Airways has suspended operations till Sept 15, 2008 and Paramount Airways has reduced frequency.
Walk us through the revenue streams from the airport. Landing and parking charges may be a large part of the income?
The revenue from the airport is divided into aeronautical and non-aeronautical revenues. Since the airport is only a month old, it is a bit early to comment on the aeronautical and non-aeronautical revenue split. However, approximately 15% of revenues are expected to come from the non-aeronautical avenues.
Aeronautical revenue: A very important revenue stream for the airport is the User Development Fee (UDF). The Concession Agreement specifies that BIAL will be allowed to levy UDF from embarking domestic and international passengers for the provision of passenger amenities, services and facilities. The UDF is used for the development, management, maintenance and operation of the airport. While international passengers flying out of Bengaluru International Airport pay UDF, domestic passengers are not being charged this fee for the first three months of airport operations.
Landing charges at BIAL to be paid by airlines as per the current AAI charges levied at other international airports in India. Landing charges at BIAL are in fact lower than what was charged by HAL for all carriers. According to the concession agreement, BIAL could adjust the landing charges to the inflation rate since 2001, this will lead to an increase of 38% but BIAL has totally waived of any such increase.
Tell us about your cargo facility. What is the utilization now?
Following are some of the salient features:
The concessionaires have designed the cargo facility which is under Full CCTV Surveillance all areas 24/7.
The new cargo facility handles all types of cargo - general cargo, perishable cargo, courier, mail and specialized cargo (dangerous goods, live stock, etc). Adequate holding areas and cold storages have been provided for by both consortia, catering not only to floriculture and horticulture but also industries like pharmaceuticals and other perishables. Cargo Village: The new airport will provide infrastructure for cargo agents and freight forwarders at a cargo village that is being built in the airport premises. This area will house 200 offices and 120 warehouses.
By when do you expect to start expansion here?
BIAL forecasts cargo volumes of approximately 220,000 tons in the first year of operation as opposed to a capacity of 350,000 tons. Both the cargo terminals at the new airport can be expanded when the need arises.
Furthermore, BIAL has the land reserve to allow more cargo handles to operate at the new airport in order to boost the import/export cargo volume. The new airport will see both a quantitative increase in terms of export facility area and qualitative improvement, in terms of storage and handling capabilities, to promote the outflow of goods globally.
The new airport will see both a quantitative increase in terms of export facility area and qualitative improvement, in terms of storage and handling capabilities, to promote the outflow of goods globally which mainly consist of garments, pharmaceuticals, machinery spares and perishables.
What revenues do you expect from commercial activities? We hear your advertising concessionaire JC Decaux has already sold out 70 per cent of its advertising space.
Yes, BIAL has chosen JC Decaux as the airport’s advertising concessionaire for a period of seven years. A world leader in outdoor media, JC Decaux builds and manages all media space throughout the airport. The company brings in a wide range of international expertise and experience, thereby positioning the airport as an exclusive property offering state of the art media options.
At Bengaluru International Airport, we have aimed to create world-class advertising opportunities which are on par with other international airports. Due to the superior opportunity at our airport we have received a very encouraging response from the market. We, currently, have foreign as well as local brands present at the airport. It is our constant endeavor to create unique and innovative advertising solutions at the airport.
Could you give us an idea about the revenues you see from here and for how long are the rates negotiated typically?
We have a rate card for promotions and JCDecaux will be better positioned to give you the relevant details.
What kind of incentives or government help would you seek?
Building an Airport within the PPP model has its set of challenges given the magnitude of the project. Our main challenge was to deliver this project on time. All other aspects have been of learning for us and we could not have done this without the tremendous support received by the government authorities as well as the Private Promoters. At this point, the focus needs to remain on further developing the connectivity form the city to the airport.
What is the customer feedback so far?
It’s been almost one month, since BIA started its commercial operations and we have received overwhelming responses from travelers to and from the Airport. Passenger feedback has been key to improving the airport facilities. While many have congratulated BIAL on the first class facilities and access road to the airport, many passengers have also given objective feedback on the service and amenities.
Most passengers have been empathetic to the fact that a project of this magnitude has initial interruptions and have expressed their support. All the feedback received has been compiled systematically and action has been initiated for each of them.
Brief us on the latest ownership pattern of the airport. Any stake sale etc in the near future? Reports mentioned about BIAL seeking a valuation of up to $2.5 billion to raise about $200 million in equity to fund the second phase of the airport’s development. Could you give us more details.
Bangalore International Airport Limited (BIAL) is Public limited company under Indian Companies Act formed to design, build, own and operate the greenfield private sectorowned and operated airport in India. Private promoters hold a 74% stake in BIAL while the state holds the remaining 26%.
The shareholding is as follows:
Karnataka State Investment & Industrial Development Corporation – 13%, Airport Authority of India – 13%. Siemens Projects Ventures – 40%, Larsen and Toubro – 17% and Unique Zurich Airport – 17%.
Of the total cost of Rs24.70bn, 16% is equity investment, 14% is state support from GOK, 65% is debt and the remaining 5% is internal accruals or security deposits.
It is important to understand here that the state had set aside a certain amount for this project. Hence, the equity contribution by the private players had to accordingly be in the shareholding ratio, keeping the state investment amount in mind.
Regarding reports mentioned about BIAL seeking a valuation of up to $2.5 billion to raise about $200 million in equity to fund the second phase of the airport’s development, I would like to reiterate that this is not true. There have not been any talks in this regard between the shareholders.
The Karnataka chief minister spoke about negotiating with BIAL to keep HAL airport open. What is your view?
As you are aware, HAL was shut the day BIAL was operational, ie on Friday, May 24, 2008. We have always maintained that Bangalore needs a single aviation platform for both domestic and international traffic, to allow seamless transfer between domestic and international flights for passengers, cargo and efficient airline operations. All successful aviation hubs in Asia (Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Hong Kong, Seoul) have developed out of such a single platform. Examples cited where a city has several airports (New York, London) have above 100 Mio. passengers, compared to the 10 mio of Bangalore. Since Bangalore has a strong business market and ideal location, the new airport will serve as a regional hub for South India attracting investments and businesses that will lead to significant growth and job creation. In the current scenario, Bangalore stands the chance to become a hub for south India as against Hyderabad and Chennai.
Last but not least it has to be mentioned that the concession agreement, which clearly stipulates the closure of the then-existing airport, has always anticipated a growth of the new airport. The concession agreement even indicates future expansion steps. Therefore it was always clear: When the new airport opens, the old will be closed. Thereafter the new airport has to be expanded in order to always meet the demand.
What is your expectation regarding the high-speed rail link between the city and the Bengaluru International Airport (BIA) at Devanahally. By when do you see it happening?
From a passenger and environment point of view a rail link to the airport is absolutely essential and BIAL has always maintained that. The high-speed rail link would enhance the convenience and comfort of the traveler. For exact timelines of the project, the state authorities would be better positioned to answer you.
Give us details about the low cost terminal. What kind of activity and business do you expect?
There has been a lot of speculation on this topic. While we are working on the next expansion of the airport, kindly note that nothing has been finalized yet. The work on expansion is in line with our commitment to expand the size and capacity of the airport infrastructure in line with the projected passenger and cargo growth. We will keep you informed as soon as we have some concrete plans to announce.
What is the total cost so far incurred. In the next two to three years, what is the amount set aside for the airport. How would it be funded?
The project cost of phase I currently stands at Rs24.70bn. This cost does not include the added investment of approx. Rs10bn made by the selected concessionaires. Phase II of the airport expansion which will include another runway and terminal building is expected to cost more than phase I. An intermediate expansion of the existing terminal building will cost approximately $20mn.
Source : India Infoline
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
[blreditor - formatted it so that it would be easier to read - no edits done to content]
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
BIAL Capacity
BialTerminal
I have done this study and posted it in my article http://aviation.deveshaga....
Please see this picture http://lh6.ggpht.com/dev.....
This is a capacity analysis using ACTUAL data from 2007-8 of domestic flights and average movements per day and average passengers per flight.
The average passengers per flight for Apr 07 to Mar 08 was 93, with a peak of 98 PPF in Dec 07, and a low of 84 PPF in March 08.
Bottom line is that at peak there are 30 movemements per hour. That is the maximum permitted by DGCA in India RIGHT NOW. We have discussed this before, let us not even go in to ATC operations and increasing beyond 30, since it is not possible under the current rules.
Assuming BIAL's claim of 2,733 passengers per hour max, then the current terminal is already above 95% on average.
If AAI's assessment is accurate at 9.87 million, then we have a problem since last years closing traffic was 10.2 million.
While there has definitely been a slow down in growth, but I have not know of any other legacy airport that is reporting negative growth. It appears that BIAL and HIAL are actually producing a negative growth in traffic, and I cannot attribute it to anything else but location.
Since you raised the issue of land, I thought the 4000 acres was to be used, partially, for non-aero revenue. I was horrified to read that BIAL intends to get only 15% of its revenue from non-aero sources. Changi gets 60%.
Something is not adding up.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Landing charges at BIAL are lower than HAL?
http://www.indiainfoline.com/news/showleader.asp?storyId=654&lmn=1
"....Landing charges at BIAL are in fact lower than what was charged by HAL for all carriers. According to the concession agreement, BIAL could adjust the landing charges to the inflation rate since 2001, this will lead to an increase of 38% but BIAL has totally waived of any such increase........"
Fuel Charges
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Not really shooting from the hip
Devesh,
As a supply chain manager, I have planned warehouse space for a few years. So I understand some of the principles here :).
If HAL and BIAL capacity are fairly close, that means HAL offered about 20m2 per peak hour passenger. I doubt it.
"While there has definitely been a slow down in growth, but I have not know of any other legacy airport that is reporting negative growth. It appears that BIAL and HIAL are actually producing a negative growth in traffic, and I cannot attribute it to anything else but location". crude prices might be a bigger factor. A number of airports (Jaipur, Bhopal, etc) are reporting a sharp fall in traffic.
Bangalore is the airport equivalent of the sensex - had a great bull run (far more than the 2X GDP growth rate) for 4 years. at 2X GDP we should have been closed to 7.5 - 8 million/year. I see this as a correction to more realistic levels.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Whats not adding up is your flawed calculation
Devesh,
Whats not adding up is your flawed calculation. If someone wants to convince us 2+2 is 5, then he probably can, but it does'nt make it right. Your calculations seems to be based on what you want your end result to be and not the other way round.
Anyways,do you have any experience in airport planning and operations? I am just curious since you have claimed that almost everything BIAL done so far as wrong. I just wonder if you deep inside think that Mr.Brunner and other BIAL officials are incapable of building and running an airport.
And please stop comparing Changi to BIAL. Changi is an international airport, there are no domestic flights operating in Changi, all flights are international,so the operational and facility parameters will vary. And how much did Changi cost compared to BIAL in present value dollars? Why don't you compare BIAL to HIAL, atleast thats fair.
Apparently you have so much hatred towards BIAL, I'm curious to know why? I suspect you are hired by Ms.Kiran Mazumdhar and others to lobby on their behalf. If this is indeed true its pathethic.
I can believe the HAL capacity numbers...
Srivathsa touched on a very unique design aspect of the HAL airport (although he was doing it in a tongue-in-cheek fashion). This is the "Open Sky" pre-departure lounge area provided just outside the check in area where you can relax while waiting for your turn to get your baggage x-rayed.
On my last international flight out of the HAL airport, a colleague who was to join me on a mid-night flight out ended up spending a good 35 minutes in this lounge (aptly named because it uses the sky as a canopy) before he was let in to complete the check in formalities. He told me that the line had extended well past the domestic departure area but not to worry because there was room all the way to Airport Road. In theory, this lounge could easily accomodate 5000 people during peak hours. So, if BIAL with ~2700 peak hour passengers/hour has a capacity 9.87 Million, I would argue that HAL's capacity was atleast 15 Million.
Now if the BIAL managers are smart, they would create a feature similar to the "Open Sky" lounge. They could easily create a lounge under the canopy in front of the departure area. They already have a couple of fast food outlets there. They need to put some lounge chairs, a few potted plants, a book store and voila, BIAL's capacity will be 20 Million. I doubt if they are listening and even if they are, I am not sure they are smart (as I have said before) to capitalize on such opportunities.
BIAL landing charges lower than HAL
BIAL is not allowed to charge higher than what other AAI run airports charge, but it is at liberty to charge less.
However, for us passengers, this impacts us more, since BIAL, HIAL, and other PPP airports want to impose UDF on us. Ultimately revenue has to be made, and we are not the airport's customer, the airline is.
In the interview, I was rather shocked by BIAL's assertions that they intend to earn only 15% in non-aero revenue. That is very low considering the amount of land they have received, which was meant precisely for this. By comparison Changi started with 40% non-aero which has now increased to 60%. This allows Changi to offer lower prices to both airlines and passengers, and will make it a formidable competitor to any airport wanting to become an international hub.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Bayern ....................
Whats not adding up is your flawed calculation. If someone wants to convince us 2+2 is 5, then he probably can, but it does'nt make it right. Your calculations seems to be based on what you want your end result to be and not the other way round.
It will be helpful to understand what flaws do you find in my calculations, and also your correct calculations. i.e. constructive criticism please.
Anyways,do you have any experience in airport planning and operations?
Yes. And do not ask me to elaborate. My experience has already been posted on Praja.
I am just curious since you have claimed that almost everything BIAL done so far as wrong. I just wonder if you deep inside think that Mr.Brunner and other BIAL officials are incapable of building and running an airport.
BIAL has started off with a project that was planned small, but in line with the need, WHEN, it was planned. In the period that BIAL did the construction the air traffic in Bangalore has increased 250%. Now they are in a situation of being unable to deliver the needs of the city, and playing catch-up. Instead of letting HAL continue so that pressure is eased, the promoters are so eager to earn back their investment (not that I am opposed to them earning their investment), that they are willing to sacrifice this city for it.
BIAL officials. The team as a whole, is very good, and I engage with them regularly. They do face a problem of not knowing how to deal with the vagaries of Indian situations, but are learning rapidly. I have invited BIAL, Menzies, and AI-SATS to participate in the Chamber's infrastructure committee to deepen the engagement and improve the situation.
We all associate Mr. Albert Brunner with BIAL, but there is an un-recognised champion Mr. Marcel Hungerbuehler, the COO. He is a very pragmatic, understanding and engaging person.
I feel there is a disconnect between the BIAL officials on the ground in India, who know the full picture, and the promoters, located in Germany, rushing to earn back their investment. In my humble opinion, the local officials should be more empowered.
And please stop comparing Changi to BIAL. Changi is an international airport, there are no domestic flights operating in Changi, all flights are international,so the operational and facility parameters will vary. And how much did Changi cost compared to BIAL in present value dollars? Why don't you compare BIAL to HIAL, at least thats fair.
Changi, for your information, is a lot cheaper than BIAL -- especially for the citizens of Singapore, the airlines, and the passengers. Changi was given about 1000 acres to start with. The rest was reclaimed by Changi.
I compare Changi and BIAL from the cargo and operations stand-point. SATS is 100% owned by Singapore Airlines, and runs a large part of Changi operations. AI-SATS has Cargo, Ramp Handling, and Catering contracts at BIAL. So service levels should match. Singapore has been rated by the World Bank Logistics index as Rank 1, globally. That is a HUGE reason for Singapore business sucesses and why companies want to locate there.
Charges are balanced with labour costs. So if you do a UN currency PPP based comparison (where 1USD is approx 5 INR) on charges vs. efficiency, you will be shocked.
Part of the problem is the hype created about BIAL being "world class". We have inflated expectations. All of us are responsible for it, BIAL included. We cannot say "world class" and not "world class" at the same time. Sorry but we cannot have it both ways.
Apparently you have so much hatred towards BIAL, I'm curious to know why?
I do not have any hatred to BIAL. I want them to succeed just as I want any other infra project to succeed. At the same time, I want value for my money, and I am not willing to believe anything from anybody blindly, and that includes HAL. My initimate knowledge of HAL comes from engaging with them on behalf of the chamber for many years. The folks at AAI and HAL will confirm how much I have pushed them to deliver. We have to demand maximum bang for our buck.
I suspect you are hired by Ms.Kiran Mazumdhar and others to lobby on their behalf. If this is indeed true its pathethic.
Buzz off. You do not know anything about me to make such a pathetic statement, and from the rest of your message, I think you are a much more classier person.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
'Hired by Kiran Mazumdar' - what!??
Bayern, please. Don't make such personal and irresponsible comments! As much as some of us take Devesh on for some of his arguments, he has been fact based in most discussions. I think we all (pro-BIAL, anti-BIAL, pro-HAL etc) have learnt from each other here.
The discussions here should tell you the risks we take in doing things non-transparently and with closed minds. Whatever the subject, one person just can't know it all. When you do things transparently, and share your actions or plans, you get quality input via feedback. You get junk as well, but there are ways and tools to filter things.
It seems to me that BIAL is a bit off the boil here. One point for many members here not being in favor of keeping HAL open was - BIAL will not get as much pressure to deliver. We need to keep it tight - need details of their financial structure, operations and plans. When they said they have invested so many thousand Crores, who is auditing and verifying that? What are their financial ins and outs right now? What break-even (gestation) period are they targeting?
They should be subject to same levels of scrutiny as any public listed company in India, if not RTI like government bodies. Right now, looks like there neither. Transparency is not about printing site maps and layouts in glossy brochures or colored PDFs. That is called marketing :)
No need to get personal
I second Silkboard. Devesh has a right to his viewpoints. Whether we agree with them or not, let's not get personal. All viewpoints are welcome on this site.
I may not agree with Devesh on some things, but he has always been data based and in general unbiased towards BIAL.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Air Passenger traffic declines for the first time in 3 years
Air passenger traffic takes a hit on high fares
Anirban Chowdhury / New Delhi July 11, 2008
Dips 4 per cent in July first week for the first time in 3 years.
For the first time in the past three years, the first week of July has seen the domestic air passenger traffic declining by 4 per cent over the year-ago period. After slowing down to a single digit in the past few years, the passenger traffic slipped into the negative zone this month.
"There has been a decrease of 5-6 per cent in the first eight days of July for full-service carriers compared with that in the same period of 2007," said Ankur Bhatia, executive director, Bird Group, which controls Amadeus India, one of the leading technology providers to the Indian travel industry.
Amadeus provides one of the largest ticket reservation platforms for the airline industry in the country.
Apart from full-service carriers, executives of low-cost carriers like JetLite and Simplifly Deccan confirmed that their numbers had gone down. Experts said taking a marginal growth of SpiceJet and IndiGo into account, the overall passenger traffic would go down by close to 4 per cent for the industry in the July.
According to figures released by the civil aviation ministry, the domestic passenger traffic in the country had seen a double-digit growth in the first quarter of 2008.
The growth in the first quarter of this calendar year was 11.12 per cent over the same period last year. The growth fell to a single digit in April compared with 8.65 per cent growth in the same month last year.
The growth in May came down to 2.9 per cent over the previous year's.
The ministry figures for June have not been compiled yet, experts and airline executives said, adding that the negative growth would have started in the last week of June.
The decrease has happened primarily because of two reasons — increase in prices leading to lower load factors and a cut in capacity in the last couple of months.
The average price across airlines and sectors has increased by more than 100 per cent this year over that of 2007. This has led to a significant dip in the average passenger load factor (PLF) to close to 60 per cent for most carriers(compared to an average PLF of 70-75 per cent last year).
Besides, in the last two months, the airline industry has cumulatively cut around 10 per cent of the total domestic capacity deployed in the country by cancelling 160 of a total of around 1,600 daily flights operating in the country.
Taking an average of 100 seats per aircraft, this would mean that around 16,000 daily seats had been taken out of the market. This two-month cut would have offset most of the capacity increase that happened last year.
Source : The Business Standard
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Air traffic decline - double edged for BIAL and us
Its finally official. Air passenger traffic has slumped in to negative territory. For the first time in 3 years, traffic is lower than it was a year ago.
This has tremendous meaning for PPP airports, BIAL included.
For BIAL, the benefit is the reduction in pressure to expand quickly. The bad part is that their income flows from airlines will be impacted. Airlines are already exercising their economic clout by refusing to pay for aerobridges and other "frill services". They are willing to accept remote parking bays, and this does not bode well for BIAL. With the loss of this frill revenue, they will be further dependent on UDF.
Tough times are ahead for all air passengers. The government planned AERA will be for the benefit of airlines. There is no protection for passengers' rights and needs.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
I agree............
Bayern,
I totally second SB and s_yajman on their thoughts and requests for restraining ourselves to the merits of the issue. Wether we agree with Devesh and other Pro-HAL campaigners or not, there is no need to become personal. Even we don't have to accept that somebody is an aviation expert or not. As VVR mentioned in some posting, data, metircs etc all can be put to use for both far and against an opinion.
Personally I do not agree with Devesh's line of argument on BIAL and Pro-HAL discussions. But that is my line of thinking and I stand by my comments with conviction. Still that doesn't give me any freedom/right to get personal in this kind of discussions and discourses. We can still drive our counter arguement without being personal
IA, in my next visit to B'lore I do wish to meet all of these friends including Devesh and yourself.
Syed
Growth uncertainties !
Devesh,
I am surprised to read comments like we need to worry about negative growth. As a businessman yourself and technocrat, you very well know no business can be assured of huge profits all the time. This day and age, in aglobal economy, business growth is dependent on many factors that one may think/argue that it has no relation whatsoever. Take the impact of Sub-Prime loans in USA on Indian share market. It is said, if USA sneezes India gets cold. Therefore the slump in aviation sector should not surprise us.
To me even the negative growth would present oppurtunity for opening new vistas and areas. Also we need to get out of this subsidised rate mentality. We can not expect government to continue our subsidising our lifestyles. Why should my controbutions to govt. be spend in subsidising petrol and diesel for private vehicle users? I am a core socialist in ideology for government spending in education, health, public transport and national security. In all other spheres I support captilist ideas for the market force to determine the price, including the airport charges.
Syed
Decline - didnt we see it coming?
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
ATF - the whipping boy
ATF is my pet peeve. The government has completely bastardised the fuel pricing in India with hugely imbalanced taxation, and even more lopsided pricing policies.
The removal of the administered price mechanism which was to allow for market driven pricing is back on our backs with a vengance.
Petrol alone cannot cross-subsidise the huge losses on Kerosene, LPG and Diesel. So OMCs are making up some money by ramming super high ATF prices down the airlines' throats. In India, ATF costs more than double that of international prices.
It is downright shameful.
But my point was not about the slowdown itself, or its reasons. I am more concerned on the impact on the development of private airports, and the fact that this slowdown will force them to rely on UDF even more.
That is a direct impact on passengers, and will lead to even more compression.
Its a downward spiral.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
A chance for airports to perform
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Its because of the word aviation
ATF = Aviation = flying = rich people. Its that mindset. Similar mindset was on display recently when Mr Sreedharan (of Delhi Metro fame) was speaking about High speed rail link to BIAL. "we can easily charge Rs 250 as these would be air passengers" (dont remember it verbatim, but he said or meant this).
Stations should be at par with airports in amenities and lung space. But the "gap" between the two is justified, and cited as reason to bring down the standards of airports. What coincidence and irony that Railways, a public entity is making money on such poor amenities (how much ever they have gotten better in last 5-6 years, there still is a long long way to go), whereas the airlines are bleeding.
Sorry, digressed.
Re: ATF - the whipping boy
Devesh,
I agree completely with you on the ATF front. That is the bane of the aviation industry right now with quite a few carriers globally teetering on bankruptcy. Do you think there is anyway the govt can be made to change the taxation structure on ATF to bring down the costs? What do you suggest would be a practial approach to that?
As far as fuel savings go...global airlines are trying every trick in the book to bring the fuel burn down by reducing weight ...replacing heavier seats with lighter ones, doing away with magazines to reduce paper, light weight galley trolleys etc. I hope carriers in our country are doing the same. Aviation being a cyclical industry I am sure it will rebound, but with some pain in the short term (we saw that in the past with SARS epedemic, 9/11). But of course since ATF is a huge chunk of the operational costs that is a major source of the worry that needs to be addressed. In addition other fuel saving measures like reducing taxi time, ground congestion & reducing hold time in the air need to be taken (I think the NEW airports in general in India address these so we are ok..but BIA needs to add rapid exit taxiways to the other end of the current runway also). One example of fuel wastage can be seen in Chennai airport due to infrastructure constraints (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=22388610&postcount=213, http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=22388758&postcount=214). The same fuel wastage problem is seen in LHR,DEL,BOM where aircrafts face excessively long holds before landing due to congestion.
RE : ATF - The whipping boy and fuel reduction
There is a way for airlines to save money when flying to Bangalore. Declare HAL as an "alternate" airport. For all the flights in to Bangalore right now, the first alternate is Chennai. If HAL is declared as an "alternate" then flights will have to carry less than 5 minutes extra fuel, when compared to 35~40 mins for Chennai.
BialTerminal -- what will be the typical fuel burn for a B737 for 35 minutes flying ? Assume an average cruise of FL150. My guess is around 1 ton of fuel.
The impact will reduce with longer flights like international, but domestic flights will gain. The regional flights will see the greatest gains. A flight from Chennai to Bangalore will carry half the fuel it currently does. As you said weight = money.
I do not see this government having the fiscal sense to correct the situation. The problem is the utter corruption of the PDS and the deep rooted involvement of people in power. The diversion of PDS kerosene and other commodities is all thanks to them.
Just as a small digression, in my humble opinion, a suggestion for the correct implementation of subsidy of PDS. The government knows how much money it is paying to subsidise each family (officially). Direct credit "food stamps" money in to their post office bank account. Access to the account will be allowed via the ration card. The stamps can be used to purchase all the commodities of the PDS from regular shops including Kerosene, which will be sold at market prices. This will at least attack the problem of leakages from one side. Then focus on the fraudulent card holders.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Alternative Airport
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Re: Alternative Airport
narayan82,
Yes, in case of a weather problem HAL would in most cases be affected too. But, alternative airports are not for just weather related issues. For example if an aircraft is stuck on BIA's current single runway then the airport would be temporarily shutdown till it is cleared. Proximity of an alternate airport is not an issue. The alternate airport has to confirm to ICAO norms - availability of atc, navigational facilities, adewuate firefighting etc.
Alternative Airport vs Diverting
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
unless..
There is a 'Die Hard' like situation where the airport is taken over around diwali time..
OR
"may day may day...low on fuel cannot make it to BIA..have to glide into this abandoned air strip which is unusually wide!"
Devesh.....(others can ignore)
Devesh...
Sorry , if you feel I personally attacked and accused you.... Well, my perception about you is derived by reading your numerous posts in SSC. There are also others in SSC who think that you are a lobbyist representing certain industries in electronic city, so I am not the first one afterall. Its obvious you have taken a strong stance against BIAL, which is fine as long as you are honest with your arguments, because you are opening yourself up for people's perceptions.
That said, before you ask me to Buzz off once again remember Benjamin Franklin once said: "Our critics are our friends, for they show us our faults..." . Take it or leave it!
RE : ATF - The whipping boy and fuel reduction
Hi Devesh,
I think we are definitely getting off topic here for the thread but one final response on your earlier statement -
"There is a way for airlines to save money when flying to Bangalore. Declare HAL as an "alternate" airport. For all the flights in to Bangalore right now, the first alternate is Chennai. If HAL is declared as an "alternate" then flights will have to carry less than 5 minutes extra fuel, when compared to 35~40 mins for Chennai."
My response -
It does not work that way in aviation. I would never use an airline that has a policy of carrying less than 5 mins of extra fuel just because there is an alternate airport very near to the destination airport. Reserve fuel calculated depends on various factors - alternate airports+airline policy+regulatory requirements. In often cases flights are planned with 2 alternate airports in mind with enough reserve fuel to fly to the furthest. The FAA at least requires enought fuel to - fly to the destination+then the alternate airport+cruise for 45 mins after that. Flight safety vs fuel savings...flight safety wins I guess. I am sure the regulations are no different with respect to dgca and no country in their right mind would allow less than 5 mins of reserve fuel.
We can take this topic offline for further dicsussion to avoid cluttering the forum.
Alternate airport
Hi Narayan
Unless there is a wide spread weather system like a cyclone, weather is more localised. Remember there is 30+km between the two airports.
Even if then, these kinds of weather systems are known well in advance.
Ultimately the choice of alternate airport is left to the airline. My suggestion is to ENABLE the choice. Those airlines who want to use it, will, those who do not, will not. Typically, I expect flights up to 1 hour to use HAL as an alternate, and those longer, will probably use Chennai.
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Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
HAL continues to be fully operational for non commercial flights
" The alternate airport has to confirm to ICAO norms - availability of atc, navigational facilities, adewuate firefighting etc."
BT, these facilities all exist, since HAL is an operational airport for all non-commercial flights. In fact, HAL today is the only airport with 4 redundant radar systems, they have recently commissioned the secondary surveillance radar as well.
Many people are unaware, HAL ATC continues to handle ALL flights in the southern part of Bangalore, and well south of Bangalore, and also controls part of the international P573 airway,
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD