Retaining HAL airport

If HAL airport is retained, the connectivity to BIAL will be further neglected and will be given less importance. Afterall, its only international travellers, a small percentage of people will be affected. On the other hand, the pressure to retains HAL should be diverted to the connectivity issues plaguing BIAL. After BIAL all has taken so much of time and money to build and its not BIAL's fault.

Now suddenly the much reviled HAL airport has become much sought after! Navshot is right - it takes 20 mins just to get onto Airport road sometimes and then 20-30 mins to reach Manipal hospital. Let's leave international flights out of the picture for a minute. From a domestic airport point of view,how often does the above-average frequent flyer fly - 4 return trips a month (that is already 100 individual flights a year!)?. He will have to spend an incremental 8*2.5 hrs a month - 16-20 hrs a month on commuting vs. flying out of HAL airport. Is it the end of the world - probably not. He in fact will find smart ways to manage meetings and avoid flying 20% of the time. He will take the train to Madras and Hyderabad (not such a bad deal). The problem is that all the CEOs, etc who are making such a big noise now are all guilty of watching the inaction over the last 3 years. They are partly to blame for not forcing the govt to get its act together. My two cents... Srivathsa

Retaining HAL may be bad in long term. Legal tangles, waste of public money (in augmenting and running that airport - AAI runs on our money, plus on BIAL connectivity). In a similar sort of way, I am happy that BIAL expressway didn't happen. See how that has forced all to look for solutions they never though of before - converting ORR to an almost expressway, "instant" flyovers. Short term suffering is good, because only then we will look for fixes. Just watch how BIAL connectivity noise leads to traffic management improvements, especially in North + East Bangalore.

All of you have very valid points but I'm not sure I completely agree with them. The first point that some made was about how not having options will force the authorities to come up with ways to solve problems. Unfortunately this is not good for two reasons. The first, the authorities are grossly incompetent at the best of times, under pressure - they are unimaginably bad. The Cauvery junction underpass is a good example of this, its taking way longer than promised (though a month is definitely acceptable if it is helpful), there are schoolboy errors committed like smashing up water pipes and to top it all no one really knows if this whole u-turn business is going to work. Secondly encouraging the culture of only-do-something-when-the-situation-is-so-bad-that-you-cannot-hide-behind-excuses-anymore, is going to be bad for the city in the long-term. Yes planning and execution of anything has always been atrocious, but if the smartest 50% of the bloggers on this site were put in charge, I really think things would change. Accepting a culture of mediocrity is a bad solution, the solution is to kick the idiots out. Of course, who is going to do it, I dont know! With regards to HAL airport itself, I can really see it playing a role in helping Bangalore adjust to its new airport. Yes traffic is bad on airport road right now, but if over half the airport bound traffic was heading towards Devanahalli, the situation would be a lot better. And that goes for the taxis, parking, touts and check-in queues. Keeping the airport open as a limited services airport would be complicated I agree and understand but it would be useful. For a start it could be used as a private airport, where the corporate bigwigs could use private/chartered jets to fly them, which would reduce their whining and complaining for a bit. Secondly it could easily work as a low-cost airline airport. For a start Indian low cost travel is not truly low-cost. Even in developed countries you can take flights for as low as Rs 1200 taxes included. Here even if you get a cheap Rs 500 Deccan ticket, you pay 2 grand in tax. And then on top of that for someone who is traveling low cost, you have to spend a couple of hundred traveling to the new airport, plus paying their disappointing Rs 649 airport usage fee, and you can see how happy the local man will be when he manages to buy a "low-cost Rs499 only*" ticket, where that "*" multiplies his ticket cost several times over. And if BIAL start charging extortionate parking fees to airlines then that will eventually end up being passed on to the consumer. HAL Airport operating as a low-cost airfield could truly lower costs for some who cant easily afford flying out from a world-class airport. In London, a city with 5 airports, Heathrow is the principal non-budget traveller airport. To get to Heathrow from central London you can get the Underground which costs about Rs 350 and takes 1.5 hrs. Or you can get a high speed train link from a central station which costs Rs 1200 and takes 15 mins. Or you can take a taxi, or a bus. There are several options and cover all ranges of budgets. However despite good transport links, due to Heathrow being an expensive world-class airport, no budget airline (Easyjet, Ryanair) fly out from Heathrow. Most fly from London's low-cost regional-travel airport called Stansted, where they can pass on cost-savings to customers. What is the big problem with Bangalore having such a system, whereby low-cost domestic flights can fly out from one airport, and premium, business and international class flights can go from the world-class airport, atleast until issues such affordable transport links, usage fees and the like have been cleared up. HAL airport has been pretty successful financially over the last few years, even if the consumer-end product has been far from world-class. I dont see why BIAL should have a problem sharing a chunk of those revenues, though of course they will be reduced once the new airport starts functioning. It is completely true that most modern cities now have airports which are far outside city-centres, but the obvious difference is that all of these have adequate transport to the airport, and more importantly varied forms of transport which offer varied prices to suit different wallet-sizes. And expecting individuals to reduce their travels to cities nearby is again not a practical route to go down. No IT worker is going to take a train to Madras, Hyderabad, and why should he if the actual travel time is 30-45 mins, vs a minimum of 7 hours to get to Madras by train (and that too if you are lucky with Indian Railways). What he will do is get into a car and drive to BIAL which will create one more traffic unit on the highway to the airport. And with all the other IT guys doing the same, its going to make life harder for all of us. All the traffic that comes from South Bangalore and then heads towards HAL airport will soon be going right through the heart of the city, which is going to make the road congestion even worse. And I think its fair to say there are more airport users in South Bangalore than North, West or East. I live in Yelahanka so technically I shouldnt be complaining, but it takes me a lot of time to reach the current airport. Even once the situation is reversed and North Bangaloreans are close to the new airport, I would not wish the hellish commutes I have to take to the airport on South-Bangaloreans.

As most have reiterated, the airport saga is going to get worse with BIAL. But lets all remember that the road to HAL airport is very bad in terms of traveling so now - people will budget more time to travel to BIAL. In most cases, travellers are paid to travel (ala corporate) so the fees/transportation cost impact is minimal to them --only consideration is time. I think HAL ought to be closed -- considering that we were all fleeced and will continue to be fleeced at BIAL. The main losers are those who are advantaged (realtors et al) thanks to the airport moving away. Considering that i stay in South Bangalore, its gone be hard on us -- but that's a part of life -- we would snigger at those who would travel from Yelahanka to EC -- now they can laugh !!

sure sure, i completely agree about the railways for short distances in the long run..but the unfortunate situation in the country is that the air sector has been opened up widely to private players, and that has increased quality and reduced price (bla bla normal effects of competition)....and that hasnt happened yet with the railways...if quality train services are put in place, then im sure most people other than premium business will (and should!) take the train.. again a good example is the UK, where different sections of railway have been privatised and different companies run them...so they maintain stations, tracks, buy their own trains, and there is an incentive for them to provide faster better quality trains, as they can then complete more journeys and earn more moolah! lets hope it happens here eh!

I've had the chance/need to take more trains in the last 5 months than in the last 10 years. I've been to both Madras and Hyderabad by train and overall I would give the experience a 7/10. To Madras, the Shatabdis are a very good option and so are the two night trains. Tickets are usually available 3 days before. To Hyd there are almost 4 daily trains. You board at about 7:00/8:00, get a good night's sleep and you reach Hyd by about 6:00/7:00 in the morning. Tickets are available 3 days before and with Tatkal you can get a seat even the same evening. I've yet to see the summer rush - but with some planning I hope to beat it. I book tickets online - so no hassle of going to the station. The AC fares are about 35-50% of flight fares. With the new airports, the taxi fares for a return trip to Hyderabad would be Rs3000-4000 and add about 8 hrs of taxi time. Add waking up at 3:00 a.m. to take a 6:30 a.m. flight and you might wonder if it was all worth it. I guess more people will review such options. Even when my company used to pay for my travel, I used to take the train to Madurai rather than endure the hopping IC flight in the middle of the day. For a one day trip, it would be 3 days worth of travel. I preferred to take the night train, finish work and take the next night train back.

DMU Train from Bangalore City Station to Devanahalli on the Chikkaballapur track which is underutilized atleast till the high speed rail is constructed. This track if extended upto airport can be used for Cargo Services too. My recommendation is instead of wasting 4,000 crores for highspeed train, extend namma metro upto BIAL airport covering important areas which will be worst affected by traffic after BIAL airport. Run dedicated trains for BIAL with limited stops or dedicate few compartments for BIAL passengers. Travel time may be 45-60 mins compared to 30 mins of highspeed rail.

"Rajiv Gandhi International Airport, Begumpet, employees on Tuesday ‘confined’ airport director R K Singla to his cabin for over five hours. As a result of the holdup, he missed the all-important trial run at the upcoming greenfield airport in Shamshabad." - TOI news They face a similar issue and they handle it that way..and what we do.. 1. File a case 2. Give long press articles In comparison, there was an announced traffic bandh under Benniganahalli on the OMR, asking for expansion of the bridge. BJP had it on 8th and CPI also had it yest ..there was no effect.. there was a travel advisory for ITPL not to use the Bridge way in the evening but there was nothing unusual happening there..this is what Bangalore is about! :P btw why does Hyd always race with Blr? ministers go saying on the opening day that they want the apt to open atleast a day before the blr one could open..weird.. they better hear the woes of their farmers who commit suicides every year or address the naxal menace!

building roads and underpasses to airport are part of the extra services provided by the govt authorities..so no accountability for it! :) They didnt even want to put up the trumphet interchange and BIAL had to do it.. So accountability for value added services is not acceptable! :P

Thanks for this discussion on ATCs. I had read some news paper reports on how BIALATC would have to co-ordinate with IAFATC. Did not understand what co-ordinating means. Was HALATC co-ordinating with IAFATC all these days? Are there protocols to follow when you say co-ordinate? Are these well laid out? Can BIAL pick them up? Why was it that BIAL pick up experienced HALcontrollers? Why did they pick up AAI controllers? Old Hyderabad i guess was an AAI airport. So the experienced controllers were AAI controllers. Who will migrate to HIAL. With controllers in such demand and at such premium why are HAL controllers not 'changing' employers? is controller job expertise highly local? can blr controller get a 'transfer' to kolkatta?

Mr subba HAL ATC was not coordinating with IAF ATC because HAL ATC was responsible for iaf yelahanka airspace also, a single ATC in this airspace means less coordination for arrival and departures from yalahanka as well as HAL Airport. Regarding AAI picking up HAL controllers, well, thay have a policy for no latreral entry, meaning a HAL controller would have to join at the lowest rung in the cadre, no HAL controller would like to join in the lowest rung, but aspire for a position depending on his years of experience. you are right about hyderabad, the same controllers working at the present airport would be working in the new airport, so, no problems. But, in BIAL there are problems with the ATC.

Of course not many people in aviation or for that matter  mr.Brunner knows that HAL controllers are the experts in this airspace and the best controllers who can control a mix of military and civil air traffic. You guessed it right! Most of the ATC's at BIAL will be Junior Executive trainess just fresh of the training institute from Civil Aviation training college from allahabad.

BIAL ATC does not hire, but bring in ATC's from small  airports handled by AAI, like Rajamahndry, tirupati, trivandrum, mangalore, coimbatore, Raipur etc, who have probably not handled more than 20 to 30 movements per day, but at HAL they handle 30 per hour during the peak period.

So travellers into BIAL be ready for long journey from house to destination and back.

it is alarming that Brunner does not know about this, especially given we are talking about navigation.

can you tell us how long it will take for people to gain local expertise? what are the tough ones - a sense for the air of bangalore, stuff beyond the daily met charts?

thanks for the update. a few questions. did you take a tour of the airport? did you talk to anybody about how the traffic is going to be handled around bial - dropoff-pickup, bus, taxi, parking, airport exit? ground traffic. when you loop around at the far end of the terminal and take a right, how is road geometry and layout? how do the two roads merge, how does traffic exiting the far end parking lot merge? any pics? thanks.

thanks... they are doing dummy trials. and they need volunteers for that. you have act like a passenger. see if you can get in on that list.

hi mithun, but there are those from other cities who are visiting the campuses. on the plus side this could mean instead of one day trips they will have overnight trips, which could be good news for lodging/hotel industry. :):) on the hand for a long time bangalore has been short on budget hotel rooms. remember how during air show people did up-down from chennai? somebody ought to track hotel industry. the new hotels that seem to be coming up are all luxury hotels with very high tarrif. meanwhile... short hop bookings have fallen apparently. ==================================== Short-haul flyers shun new airport TNN via bangalorebuzz Fears are coming true. The new Bengaluru International Airport appears to be putting off travellers flying on short-haul routes — those that have a flight time between 30 minutes and an hour. Reason: the airport is around 40 km from the city and the accessibility is poor. Most are dreading the commute to and from the airport and the expense involved. The rail and road options could be more attractive for many. According to a senior official of a low-cost airline, ticket sales for April and May between Bangalore and Hyderabad, Kochi, Chennai and Coimbatore have dropped between 30% and 35% compared to the same period last year. “Those who are travelling before March 30, when the new airport opens, and plan to come back after March 30, are booking onward flight tickets but are wary about booking their return tickets,” said the official. “Passengers having to fly out of the city from the new airport are thinking twice if their chosen destinations are on the short-haul sectors.” Over 40% of the flights out of Bangalore are to short-haul destinations. Low-cost airlines fill up close to 70% of their capacity through bookings made one to two months in advance, as prices of tickets increase closer to the date of travel. A majority of these advance bookers are visiting-relatives-and-friends segment of passengers who plan their travel well in advance. Observers say airlines may now have to rethink their shorthaul strategy. “If people find train and bus travel to be a smarter option, then airlines will have to discontinue certain short-haul routes or rationalize their frequency on some,” said an industry observer. Full-service airlines say they haven’t seen a dip in sales post-March 30. But a Jet Airways official said sales on short-haul routes could take a beating until passengers get attuned to travelling the long distance to the new airport. At a recent press briefing, Albert Brunner, CEO of Bangalore International Airport Ltd, had said the new airport would witness a 26% increase in domestic flights compared to what HAL airport currently handles. HAL now handles over 300 domestic flights a day. This is on account on the availability of additional slots. But airlines operating across the price spectrum have told TOI that the additional slots will be used to increase traffic on long-haul routes like Bangalore-Mumbai and Bangalore-Delhi, as well as open newer long-haul routes from the city. Short-haul routes are unlikely to increase. No FLYING Start Over 40% of flights out of Bangalore are to short-haul destinations Airlines see a drop in bookings Poor accessibility to new airport reason Airlines may have to rethink strategy

exactly what ive been saying

some issues yuvaraj has been discussing... BIAL may face severe problems soon: HAL official Sunday March 2 2008 08:24 IST Express News Service BANGALORE: Rapidly reaching saturation point and a restricted airspace could pose problems for the new Bangalore international airport expected to begin operations by March end. The only solution would be to upgrade the existing HAL airport with an additional runway, a senior HAL official said on Saturday. Delivering a presentation, 'Airport services - current limitations and trends' organised by the Aeronautical Society of India here on Saturday, S R Iyer, Deputy General Manager (Airport Services), HAL, said the Devanahalli airport could reach a peak passenger traffic load of 40 million per year 'within a few months' as the airport has been allotted about 40 per cent of the Bangalore air space. The remaining 60 per cent is being shared by the Air Force Station, Yelahanka, and HAL airport, where test flights on new or upgraded aircraft would continue to be conducted by the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC). The present HAL airport is handling a passenger traffic volume of eight million per year, and five times that could mean a saturation point that could be difficult to manage, he said. This situation could prevent offering slots to additional airlines as the Indian Air Force was against allowing the new airport to have a second parallel runway due to its proximity to AF Station, Yelahanka. Iyer said the only solution would be to upgrade the present HAL airport by allowing the addition of one parallel runway with rapid exits and taxi tracks to facilitate better coordination for operating the two runways simultaneously. He also called for reviewing the existing Directorate General of Civil Aviation rules and privatising the Air Traffic Control (ATC).

So bumping this to top.

Some more 'ghee' for this fire:

- Whats the definition of "short haul"? Who has the authority to decide that its okay to spend an extra 40 mins going to BIAL to catch a flight to Delhi, but not okay to spend that extra time to catch a Deccan express to Chennai? Just because I am going longer distance, does that make my 40 minutes ''cheaper' ?

- Whats the definition of connectivity "improvement"? Who will determine, and how will it be determined that BIAL connectivity has improved? Hebbal to BIAL in 20 mins? Or Bommanahalli or Padmanabhanagar to BIAL in 30 mins?

- How much time does it take to reach HAL from Yeshwantpur or Yelahanka today?

- Why do people not ask for Electronics City to be shifted to MG Road? BIAL, and oddly enough the connectivity issues around it will make business spread up north, and thus decongest the city - Just the way Electronics City and Whitefield are supposed to be doing it for South and East, and Bidadi/Ramanagarm could do for South-west.

Let us get real folks. CTTP, Metro rail, or BRTS like projects are the ones that can provide consistent and reliable connectivity to BIAL from all points in the city, just an expressway, or a high speed rail from Hebbal will not. Improving connectivity to BIAL is like solving the only real problem Bangalore has today - public transport to get around from Yeshwantpur to HAL, or JP Nagar to Yelahanka, or anywhere to elsewhere.

Bangalore may need a second airport, but that does not have to be HAL. Something little more south, or west, perhaps near BMIC-Mysore expressway is what makes more sense in the long run.

Penalizing and chasing those responsible for the connectivity mess today will ensure that next government does take up connectivity issues in a good and real way. Instead of doing that, we are all spending energy on a short term and 'ill-defined' goal.

that is exactly my point too. what are the metrics for all this? who decides what is short hop and what is not? HAL will go back to being HAL- a place where real solid aeronautics is done. instead of distracting themselves with pretensions of expertise in service industry, HAL should and will concentrate on what it does best - aeronautics. it is things like tie-ups with Boeing that will sustain it in the long run. that is the seed that walchand planted, not a two -bit make believe airport. real problematic symptoms of Bangalore's ailment are transport, as SB said. the rest of it all is smoke. if there is any long shot hope that bangalore's real, fundamental, essential problems will ever be solved it is if bangalore's only airport is at devanahalli, atleast for the next 10-15 years.

sb, i generally agree with most of your opinions but not quite sure about this..

 

my opinions on your questions

 

1) the person who does/should have the authority to make those decisions is the end consumer himself/herself...if there are two airports and there is competition, then the end consumer obviously will benefit - if deccan chose to operate their flights from HAL and spicejet is flying to the same destinations from BIAL there is a choice offered to the consumer..the same airline may also offer flights from both airports (as i have no doubt that deccan will do if both are retained)....in such a case those living north of say, High Grounds, may decide that they would rather drive to BIAL than HAL or whatever...regardless of who goes where people have a choice...this also partly addresses your issue of whether your 40 mins is "cheaper" - YOU will be able to decided that, whether you are wiling to drive a longer distance and enjoy better facilities or whether you have a morning at work in EC and need to catch an afternoon flight to mumbai from HAL for an evening conference

 

i would say the only regulation that must be enforced is with regards to international fights..here is where the govt/regulatory bodies must step in and say, from international flights from this city we require a certain minimum standard of operations and service that BIAL offers and HAL doesnt,. and furthermore BIAL must obv recuperate costs...

 

with two airports running (unless airspace problems REALLY hamper this, though I doubt it, many major cities operate 2 or more airports in the airspace blore does) both are encouraged to run a more competitive service...look at BIAL at the moment, they stand to earn the roughly 300 crores revenue that HAL currently earns, and probably more since they will be able to handle more flights than HAL at the moment...STILL they insist on a UDF to "ensure returns on our investment" which I find ridiculous...if their investment is 2500 crore, and they manage to earn 500 crore a year, which they undoubtedly will since they WILL put up aircraft parking charges for airlines, they should manage atleast 500 crore a year and make up their investment in 5 years, which is pretty good...if they ALSO manage their estimated 11 million passengers a year AND charge them all a UDF assuming a 30/70 split between intl and domestic passengers and the UDF rates they have touted they will make an additional 800 crores a year..if there is competition provided then they wont be able to rip people off in such a manner. why do you think Brunner is so against HAL being open - the consortium clearly want to make more money. If he were so concerned about things like airspace conflict and air safety, then maybe he should have worked a little harder on ensuring that the whole ATC situation at BIAL wouldnt turn out into such a mess.

 

2)Connectivity improvement is not an easy topic but most big international cities have at least 2-3 modes of efficient, reliable and regular transport to their airports and varied rates. This ensures that people with different incomes can get to the airport (and this is the key word) RELIABLY. I live in London, and if I want to get to Heathrow I can get the Underground (1.5 hrs, £4), the Heathrow Express (a direct train, 15 mins, £15) or a taxi (45 mins, £40) or even a bus/coach (45 mins, £8). However the key issue here is that I KNOW how long each mode of transport will take more or less -reliability

 

The issue at the moment is that there are only two ways of getting to BIAL, car and BMTC bus. Most business travellers or even premium economy will not take a bus, an unfortunate truth in our country. There are partners at my firm in the UK who earn £1million + a year but will still take a train to the airport. I would say a fair number of people would drive to/from the airport, and unfortunately with only one road it is impossible to say reliably how long it will take. I live in Yelahanka and I KNOW first-hand that this is the case with the road. On a good day I can drive from my house to MG Road in 30 mins at 530pm in the evening, on a bad day it can take 1.5 hours at exactly the same time. There is no knowing how long it will take.

 

Until we can offer more modes of transport catering to diffent wallet sizes AND provide reliability in terms of travel time, we have not achieved adequate connectivity.

 

 

3) As I said times are currently unreliable, but the last time I drove to the airport leaving home at 530pm, I reached MG Road in half an hour and then took another half an hour to get to HAL. Other times it has taken me close to 1.5 hours.

 

As I see it there are two ways of arguing this situation out. One is to say ok we close HAL open BIAL. Yes connectivity is crap at the moment, but it will get better because there is no other choice - it HAS to get better. And then point to things like these magic box underpasses and say "Look the government/authorities have realised they HAVE to do something because there is no other option" and hope that connectivity to BIAL will improve in this "firefighting" method - the situation is so bad that everyone is forced to try and improve it.

 

The second is to say that if there are two airports and there are competitive market forces at work, then each airport has an extra initiative to take a forward role and put pressure on government/sponsor some public works or whatever to ensure that there is better connectivity to BOTH airports. For instance HAL may coordinate with BMRC to build a station at HAL or BIAL could be part of a corporation to build a dedicated train link from the city to BIAL - here both competing entities are forced to take an active role in ensuring better facilities.

 

I agree with the fact that BIAL will make the city spread out more, and this is definitely a good thing, but this will happen regardless of any issue since we know they will at least not be closing down BIAL!!

 

And I completely, wholeheartedly agree with your comment that improving connectivity is the the problem all of Bangalore faces today.

 

Also an airport more south would be great, but BIAL will still whine about their 150km radius rule, which I strongly believe should be scrapped. Also in the long run an airport south is great (Hosur maybe?) but the issue is that there is already infrastructure, a runway, personnel and a lot of experience at the HAL airport. Agreed it is no way meant to handle the traffic it does but there is no reason why it shouldnt still operate.

ts, always agree with you ,but not sure it is fair to suggest that HAL has NOT been concentrating on its core business while HAL airport has been open. They may have had to give priority to civilian air traffic in recent years, but its not like they need to operate 50 test flights a day either.

 

can you please explain how you think bangalore problems will all be solved if our airport is at devanahalli - i dont really get this.

 

 A new railway station can be built near HAL airport by re-installing the abandoned railway line from Bayapanahalli to HAL via BEML. Bayappanahalli is connected to all major parts of Bangalore city by rail and in the main trunk rail route. Thus a good and fast railway connection can be obtained from city to HAL airport with minimum effort. 

HAL airport is within proper Bangalore city limits and well connected to city by the existing airport road. Indiranagar flyover provides short cut to Koramangala and south.

Less than 10km to  MG Road, Raj Bhavan and Karnataka Secreteriat. Similarly nearer to ITPL and electronics city where thosuands of IT professionals work many of whom are air travellers.

HAL police station nearby. No rowdys/goondaism on airport road. No vacant lands either side on roads to city. Safety assured 24 hours on present airport road.

Budget Hotels and restaurants for common man are in plenty nearby to HAL airport -Kempfort stretch.

Plenty of autorickshaws, taxis and bus services available outside HAL airport on the airport road.

No user development fee.

Now Iam not sure how anybody as an air traveller can think of abandoning such an airport for Bangalore?

Rakesh.

150 kms is not a BIAL fancy but a MCA discretion. excellent posts siddanth and rakesh will get back later. meanwhile checkout syed's posts. yeah navshot, perhaps it is worthwhile to track the alternatives. ajay & pratap have been on the western half's case for a while now.