Moral Policing - or talibanisation?

I hnoestly think that use of terms like talibanisation etc are overkill for this incident. Its a law and order problem, key is to probe and see if some political party or figure used "these methods" to settle scores with either the pub owner here. These things usually work that way.

I wonder if lack of strong action in the recent incidents of attacks on churches have encouraged the "let me fix it myself" groups. The deeper truth of the church attacks were like this:

One group within the christians in Dakshin Kannada region are seen (from first hand knowledge, I know that they are) very aggressive towards conversion. And, there is reasonable resentment towards their methods. The 'attacks' were directed towards only this group, not all churches.Government has been a little light (now, this is an allegation, I have not verified this in any credible way) as they know they have some "ground support" in this "indirect" stance against aggressive conversions.

However, letting vandals get away with such acts is not the way to deal with the situation. If it feels the need to act, it must explore legal ways (however controversial) like banning conversion for meny or whatever.

I am afraid that "light punishment" approach may have set bad precedents for the region. Folks of all kinds could use "these methods" to settle scores or brag about their ideologies.

We would be insulting the police force and the word "policing" by calling these sensless acts "moral policing". This is nothing but politically motivated goondaism and muscle show. The strongest message can be sent out only by the law enforcement agencies (which will unfortunately not happen). Speaking of whether terming this as talibanisation is an overkill for this incident, well I don't think so; the only difference is that in the other case there is more violence and they(the talibans) were running the so called government. This video leaves me completely stunned and ashamed - http://www.youtube.com/wa... I think the supreme court must invoke some extraordinary powers if available to intervene in this and make an example out of those thugs by meting out the strictest punishment (life in prison).

Thats all i can say. These things are like a blot on our progressive society. We are back into dark ages.

In an interview in Times Now, one of the victims narrated how they were manhandled and molested. Many of the girls' dress were torn apart. After all this - they say "These girls are like my sisters" !!!

I was shocked out of my wits to see the way they were attacked - http://ishare.rediff.com/...
If a society treats a woman like this - we dont deserve to be called a society.
Our freedom is at stake here. How can some one tell us what is right and wrong for us. Who are these people to define what is morality - a bunch of jobless, frustrated, neglected people - being instigated by people like Muthalik. It is an attack on the rights promised by our constitution. It is a clear human rights violation.

If these people were given a free hand, i am sure they will also bring down every temple on this land - citing obscenity.

If things are not controlled, they will only get worse. I doubt if the politicians of BJP will do anything at all apart from all the cosmetic stuff they have done till now.

But is there anything that we can do - apart from cribbing here? Can we write to NHRC?

Prajasevaka :x

In a diverse multi-cultural society like India how can one group of people decide what Indian culture is all about. That too by assaulting women. It is my belief that the inefficiency of our judicial system that is strengthening people to do these kind of acts. Justice delayed is often justice denied. Is there anyway we can bring awareness to this aspect of our society ? I am sure if the people involved beleived that it would affect their life for ever they would not dare to do such things. How about 10 years in prison and a criminal record that would prevent them from getting employment or contesting elections or getting loans, etc. Three such acts and they are in for life (similar to california's 3 strike rule). -ebi

Enlightening.  IMHO it is a power game with men increasingly threatened by what they see as the breakdown of their once invincible bastion. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/history/mwh/germany/womenrev_print.shtml

"Women were supposed to emulate traditional German peasant fashions - plain peasant costumes, hair in plaits or buns and flat shoes. They were not expected to wear make-up or trousers, dye their hair or smoke in public.".

And see this interview in today's TOI

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bangalore/RSS_has_some_advice_for_Rama_Sene/articleshow/4044051.cms

"Your organization has been preaching a lot about the ideal Indian woman. Who, according to you, is an ideal Indian woman?

We regard Indian women as akin to Mother Earth. It is she who has the responsibility of giving birth, nurturing and preserving our values. This, however, does not mean that she will be confined within the four walls of her house. She has every right to enjoy life and accept the positive features of modernity. But sadly, she is increasingly becoming a victim of westernization and this is weakening our traditional Indian culture. That's really worrying us. "
 

Why can't we regard Indian women as simply normal human beings, who have the same set of needs, wants and desires as men?  So men go scot free and are not responsible for "traditional Indian culture".  I would love to hear what this traditional Indian culture looks and feels like.

Srivathsa

 

 

Like i said before, first and foremost, the strictest of punishment should be imposed on those involved by bringing all charges legally possible, it is basically called "throwing the book at them"(throw at the culprits every charge that you can find in a legal book and make sure there is no leniency..there is enough proof in terms of live video). Nothing short of Rigorous Imprisonment with life in prison should be expected. If you ask me what happened is worse than murder. The apt term I can think of for what is happening is "aaj ka goonda raaaj".

I think the existing tools are enough - POTA (we can consider this an act of terror..spreading terror among innocent civilians), molestation, disturbing public peace etc. etc., and what more does any judge want..proof available on video. One need not be a legal expert to see what an atrocious crime this is. In my opinion one needs to be a legal expert to defend these thugs and figure out how to let these people off lightly by citing some technicalities (and get bail for them) inspite of all the evidence available. Eventhough i still believe in the legal process..at least for this episode I don't think these thugs need a fair trial, straightaway imprisonment it should be for them.

Found POTA 2002 here - http://www.satp.org/satpo...

Read definition of terrorist organizations:

http://www.satp.org/satpo...

Read definition of terrorist activity in section 3.1.a and 3.1.b:

http://www.satp.org/satpo...

Perhaps, the concept of special courts can be borrowed to deal with "mobocracy driven disorderly activities":

http://www.satp.org/satpo...

Anyway, the point is, does anyone know about the legal provisions that exist to deal with such organized group-ful disorderly activities? Perhaps the legal tools are interpretation based and thats why the police can't swiftly, or the state interprets thingsin its own convenient way. I wanted to understand this angle.

What the Ram Sainiks did was disgraceful. But in the name of liberal society and progressiveness, can we have drug culture, sexy dancing, etc.? Is this liberalism or pseudo-liberalism? Interestingly, no body is bothered about increasing number of pubs etc. No hue and cry is being raised over their presence. In Allahabad there were lesser number of “Thanda beer” shops. Now you can locate them at every nook and corner of the city. But no one is bothered. You can find young guys/girls smoking and drinking beer together. This is the pix of “Shining India”. This is the image of “young and vibrant India”. Hats off to such glorious developments.Please don’t say anything to these youths-representatives of modern India. They are bubbling with confidence. Westernisation is being promoted under the garb of liberalism and democracy by the media to suit the interests of foreign MNCs and others to make huge profits. Look at the way our youth is progressing. They may or may not know about finer values of life but they are certainly aware of “safe sex” methods. They may or may not go to schools but you may find them in pubs. They may or may not talk with their parents but you can find them chatting with their GFs on mobile for hours! The CEOs of big companies are involved in fraudulent activities. But they are not ashamed. On the contrary, poor farmers are committing suicide to get rid of guilt of being not able to pay the debt. That day is not far when it will be hard to distinguish “home” from a “brothel”. Parents should not be worried about anything else other than imparting knowledge of safe sex to their children. The day is not far when mom will ask their daughters waiting for school bus “Purse mein condom to hai na “? (Have you kept condom in the purse?)

The entire media knew about this cognisable offense atleast an hour before the event. The media is the biggest culprit behind this unfortunate incident. It needed trps and for making money, they have exploited the situation of the poor girls and boys. Why is nobody talking about that?

Some questions for Mayank: You have issues with young Girls and Boys drinking Beer / smoking together. Would it be alright in your view if they were eating samosas and drinking tea together instead? What do you have against pubs as long as they're legal and operate within the parameters of the law of the land? Whats wrong in being informed about safe sex methods? How do you co-relate CEOs indulging in fraud and farmers commiting suicides? Both are serious issues and need to be dealt with but you seem to suggest both result from progress being made otherwise. Your comment is otherwise full of cheap rhetoric and nonsensical innuendos that cannot be discussed seriously.

Mayank:

Yes, indeed it is time for "instrospection". It is time to introspect, why is it that with the "great and rich heritage" of Indian culture, our women are among the most unsafe in the world. It is time to introspect why West European women, with a "morally corrupt" society, are the safest in the world. Time to introspect as to why girls and women there are able to walk home from the station in the middle of the night, ALONE, without fear whereas Bangalore girls, Delhi girls and Indian girls are scared to move around alone even in the daytime, let alone nights.

Hats off to parents who teach their children "morals, religion, prayer, 'good values' ", even as they continue to bribe, cheat, litter, persecute (maids, other castes, etc.), demand dowry, are the WORST hypocrites, etc. etc. etc. Are YOU advocating a society that is into child marriage, caste oppression, dowry burning, systemic corruption, etc. that is how Indian society is, and in the name of "preserving culture", people defend anything and everything that happens in India, because, according to them, anything that is Indian is part of a "rich cultural heritage" and it automatically much better than the "morally corrupt West".

What I am trying to say is, no one here advocated teenage pregnancies, and all the rest which you have mentioned. All I want is, let people live their lives as they wish to, PLEASE? Do not impose ideas of culture.

Sir, I have some idea about how things are in the western world. I also know about Russia and other such states. Drug addiction is rampant, alcoholism is rampant. The problem is with us, Indians who have a warped idea about our own values. We are confused. honestly i don't believe that a free and fair democracy works when we don't want to take any responsibility. In the name of democracy, the media is pushing all kinds of vices among the educated and young. consumerism and all kinds of vices are pushed through the media to create an atmosphere among the impressionable minds. just because people can vote at 18, doesn't mean that vices are allowed to flourish in the name of progress.

I have absolutely no issues if they have samosas etc. I have issues with this alcoholism and its culture that is pushed by vested interests to destroy the ethical fabric of society. The laws keep changing all the time. In Moraji Desai's period, liquor was banned. It was banned and lifted later due to certain reasons of inability to implement the ban. There is nothing wrong about educating safe-sex methods. But think about what kind of society we would be living in. Morality and laws are very closely related. Laws reflect the moral values of the times. I am sorry, I take objection to your last statement. I disagree with your last statement and I have made my views very clear.

Even If I were to assume for the sake of argument that drug addiction is rampant in Russia, no one here is suggesting we emulate that. You seem to blame media for a lot of things without substantiaing any of your accusations. I think a thriving media is an essential part of a functional democracy. We should raise responsible citizens, arm them with quality education and pluralistic values. Having done that we should have belief in their ability to tell facts from the fiction. I don't know what in your opinion vices are, if you think young boys and girls spending time in each other's company is a vice, that frankly is your problem, that you need to get over, and not a vice that media or anybody else is propagating.

Most of you guys must be thinking that I support the Ram sevaks or whatever they call themselves. Let me make this very clear to you: I never ever support what they did and the way they went about. I never ever support the stupid media that didn't inform the police even though they had all the information with them. Having said this, I wish to draw attention to the silent deterioration in social and moral standards that is happening under the banner of freedom and democracy. If there are 100 people who are drug and alcoholics today, in times to come, with the collaboration of the media, the numbers would rise significantly enough to change the laws themselves. When the numbers rise, the laws change accordingly. Think about this.

Think about this. Alcoholism is allowed to thrive today because of various reasons. The various agencies and the media make it fashionable to drink and pub all the time. In due course, the number of alcoholics would increase dramatically. In another 10 years, alcoholics would support any law that would reinforce alcoholism. Similarly, drug addiction is a social evil and it is banned today. In a few years, as the drug peddlers lobby becomes powerful, they pressurise the media and the govt. to allow it in a more sober and silent way in the name of democracy and individual choice. That's how all social evils thrive. Same with adultery and other forms of behaviour. Though there are no lobbies behind all those vices, political correctness would make it acceptable and legal. Do you want to allow social evils in a very sober way? I call the lack of morals slow and certain poisoning of society.

Think about this situation. Today, liquor is allowed and is legal. In years to come, without any doubt, more people would be addicted to it. Laws would be more liberal to allow and breed this evil of alcoholism. Similarly, today's illegal thing such as drugs would become legal after sometime when it is allowed to breed silently. The same thing applies to adultery, and other such behaviour. Just because something is legal today, if allowed to thrive, would become a serious social evil tomorrow. All religions or most of them came into existence because of social deterioration and immoral behavior. Just because of a certain thing being legal doesn't necessarily mean it is correct. This is a silent killer. It kills society. Today, you may have the freedom to choose things. Tomorrow, your children will have no choice because today's minority of immoral people would have become tomorrow's majority. Today, the govt. wants to legalise live-in relationships. Only a minority of people actually go in for that. Tomorrow, it will be made compulsory.

How is not maintaining high standards and propagating vices two different issues? By propagating vices, the media has lowered its standards. Open any page of any newspaper or watch a T.V. channel. Look at the number of page-3 articles in them. Most articles propagate a culture that most Indians still consider immoral. There are articles that promote live-in as a way of living. There are other articles that promote promiscuous lifestyle. Forget it. In the Mangalore incident, the media knew about the attack 1 hour in advance. They should have informed the police. Instead they exploited the poor girls to get more TRPs. Sorry Aagarwalji, I cannot give a clean chit to media. IF THE MEDIA HAD DONE ITS DUTY, THIS UNFORTUNATE INCIDENT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED.

If media decides election outcomes then people like Mayavati can never win elections if media determined election outcomes. I have not seen any media describing her or her actions in good terms, but she controls the votes. I am sure there are many instances of such cases in india. In california the popular media was against prop 8, yet it won. The fact that you have a ballot measure will generate lot of discussion/debate around the topic bringing in diverse view points. Probably get some of the youth involved in the election process.

On the topic of pub culture, I am not sure what you mean by that. We have tried prohibition before it did not really help except the illicit liquor business. Again the Ram Sena's problem was not really liquor or the pub it is women being present in a pub. Is pub as a format worse than the road side liquor shop ? If so, why is it so ?

But what I still cant understand is why as individuals we can't follow the cultre we want to and instead want everyone to follow an individuals culture. I think its greed more than need.------------------------------- Its simply the greed of the powers that be. The media, govt, lobbies, MNCs are all controlling out thought processes and our values have been corroded because of their constant propaganda. Nobody in this forum is prepared to say that alcoholism is bad. It shows how much we are brainwashed. Yes sir we all follow our culture and our own values. It doesnt mean that we allow deterioration of social values. In the name of freedom, can we allow corruption? Okay, today corruption is illegal. But there have always been times when many illegal things were legally allowed. There was a time when dowry was legal. Does that mean that it was right? Individual choice?

The media is very powerful. That's why every political party now wants to have a T.V. channel. The powers behind the media are many. They are literally controlled by various groups and vested interests. In Mayawati's case, there are other powerful factors that neutralise the media. Mayawati has goons at the lowest level to turn votes in her favour. During Gujrath elections, you may have noticed sudden increase in anti-Modi news and articles all over. It shows that there are agendas behind the media. Why didn;t they show Modi in poor light right from 2001? Why 2 months before the elections? Similarly, in this Mangalore incident, I also have the feeling that the Ram Sainiks could have been bribed heavily to commit the act to embarass the local govt. and to get some votes in the favour of the opposition. Lok Sabha elections are due in 2 months. [Just a speculation]. The PUBs are as dangerous as road side liquor and arrack shops. The Ram Sainiks attacked the PUB just to get maximum coverage. [This is another speculation]. The media got their spice, the Ram Sainiks got their coverage overnight, and the opposition got to score political points.

bialterminal: The incident in Mangalore has brought about the issue of deteriorating values, alcoholism, drugs etc. to the fore, apart from the hooliganism that we all witnessed. Nobody would support hooliganism. I don't. But, to say that anybody above the age of 18 can behave as they wish is also not correct. Laws don't cover all social evils. Alcoholism, semi-naked dancing in pubs, promiscuous behaviour are simply not covered. Would we tolerate our sons and daughters getting into these assuming that they are above 18 years in age?

BJP is failing the citizens. I dont think this party has the right head on the shoulder. I voted BJP but I am dissapointed, I should have known better. It definitely cannot steer our country in the right direction. This is the start of a banana republic right on republic day. We are clearly heading the Pakistan way.

First, I did not want to post here at all..anywyas first I start condemning the attacks..howvever..

We tend to ape the west a lot..the pub/club culture..independence/freedom in the wrong sense etc

The other day there was a report that increasing number of women in UK are taking prenatal genetic tests to determine the father of the child and deciding to continue their pregnancy based on that for 99$! Is this progressive?!

Agreed they have laws prohibiting sale of liquor and drugs for under age people..but has that really worked?!

Prom nights is the biggest day for youth there..lets not hide saying they just dance around there drinking root beer..however 'arangetram' or the first public performance in classical music or dance is still the norm in Chennai

The west has exceptions too like what Fuser did however youth, especially in the early days, take easily the wrong path in the name of freedom

Where did we get the word 'groupies' from? freedom? ..This can go on and on!

Finally moderation is very important as BT says but thats mostly never on mind of 16-22's!

As the kannada song goes 'idena sabhyathe..idena samskruthi!'

BlrSri,

I don't think any of us is suggesting that we imitate the west blindly or that sitting in a pub and drinking and dancing is desirable or undesirable. These are assaults on some of our fundamental rights.  The road to hell is always paved with good intentions.  Today it is drinking in a pub.  Tomorrow it will be against wearing jeans.  The day after it will be about talking in English in public.  And then about listeniing to Pink Floyd :) Who gets to decide what is desirable or not? 

If the general belief is that we really cannot decide what is good or bad for us till the age of 21 then raise the legal drinking age to 21 or 25 or whatever.  But I am dead against self appointed guardians of culture and youth and their wayward ways.

And this whole Hindu culture bit frankly gets on my nerves.  Which Hindu culture - the one in Mohenjo-daro or the one in Akbar's times or the one in Samudragupta's time?  If you ask me, we are one the most morally corrupt nations in the world, where everything can be bought and sold, including women.  PDS rations meant for poor people just gets stolen.  Only 10% of money for public works programs actually trickles down to the beneficiaries.  Corruption is a way of life in India.  So let's not pretend we are inherently saints and it is the wily West that is corrupting us.

Srivathsa

Well said Yajamaanre'.

Our country has adopted democracy as its form of governance. And, for all its short-comings (and, nobody is denying there aren't plenty of it), it still is the most acceptable form for any civilised society. There have been suggestions here that there should be certain curbs on freedom - of what kind, and who decides what?

Most PRAJA members haven't possibly experienced what happened when curbs on freedom were imposed by Mdm Indira Gandhi, during her infamous 'emergency' rule. It was her son Sanjay Gandhi who just took arbitrary decisions, like enforcing 'family planning' by subjecting parents with two or more children to vasectomy/ sterlisation operations, using government machinery. The babu's were given targets, and in order to achieve it, they used agents to round up even bachelors and spinsters and forced them to undergo the surgery. If you don't believe this, please ask any Delhiite, above the age of 55.

The press was gagged. So much so, the venerated Indian Express editor of those times, Mr Frank Moraes, published a few editions with the editorial page totally blank, to convey his protest (And, that's why I will always subscribe to Indian Express, even with a few things having gone wrong with the publication subsequently).

Rather than condemn the media, my admiration for it has increased considerably after the way its coverage of the Mangalore incidents forced the BJP government to do more than it was prepared to do initially. Even assuming that it had been tipped off in advance by the perpetrators, if one were to go by the conspiracy theory, the media certainly can't have known what exactly was planned. And, without that, what were they supposed to have told the police? The more important aspect is, even with such graphic details of the atrocities captured by the media, why was the government still pussy-footing the issue?

Media is one of the most important pillars of democracy, and for all its short-comings (and, there indeed are a few), it's playing a stellar role in bringing about the much needed balance in the system. And, the competition between them, besides, is helping correct most of the short-comings.

And, Mayank, Draupadi in the venerated Mahabharata was shared by five brothers. That doesn't mean that Hindu's should be espousing that example. We in PRAJA can very well do without self-righteous preaching, please!

Muralidhar Rao

Mr Rao, Absolute freedom and absolute curbs are two extremes an both are dangerous. From one extreme, we are moving towards the other. The days of good Journalists are over. A whole new generation has gone. We cannot assume things from what was relevant 20 years or 30 years back. Those were the days of better standards. If you still wish to state that the media is full of people with virtues, you can hold that view. Sorry, I don't. Majority of educated Indians do express their dissent. The Mangalore incident had the media well-informed about what was going to happen. Do you think the media would deploy many of their personnel without reason? The circumstances are obvious - a PUB out there, and the Ram Sainiks have invited the media. Are the media personnel fools to send their cameramen in advance without any reason? I am not a fool to believe that the media were innocent. They haven't done their duty. They just wanted to exploit the girls and boys to get more TRPs and money. Not just media all the other pillars have deteriorated. Where is the question of self-righteous preaching? Everybody is trying to push their views through the backdoor. MNCs are using the media to promote their own welfare.

@Muralidhar Rao, Read this news item. http://www.deccanherald.c... My point is this. Today, we have laws to cover these illegal activities. But, laws don't mean anything when society itself has changed and people accept illegal things. The day is not far off when call girls and dance bars would be made legal. Popular perceptions change when we allow society to stink. It doesn't take much for evil to thrive in society. All it takes is for good men to keep quiet about it, giving all kinds of excuses. Today's illegal would become tomorrow's legal activity. Those who don't want to would also be forced to do it due to pressure from society.

Mayank,

Maybe you should just clearly state what and how exactly you propose to control. Please don't forget to include all the facts and figures. Also state objective goals.

-- navshot

@Srivathsa, Your last para is objectionable. Its what the pseudo-secularists have preached and you have took it into yourself without questioning. Nobody is preaching Hindu culture here. Anybody who opposes pubbing or bars or any such thing is termed a Hindu or a preacher of Hindutva. Its shows how much the media has been able to brain wash people. All I am saying is that we need some sanity and order in society. In the obsession with democracy, freedom, choice and liberalism, lets not end with a culture of drugs, AIDS, call girls and boys, high divorce, adultery, etc. Let our obsession not be fatal to the general health of society. No religion supports destruction of society in the name of liberalism and progress. Its not about Hinduism or Islam or Chritianity. Its nor about men and women. Its about a healthy society free from social evils that I stated above.

@Navshot, My basic purpose is to make people think differently. I want people to move out of what is always thought of and told to be the gospel truth. Perhaps, without being so forceful in my views, everybody would think the same way - the line of thinking which pseudo-liberalists have. Having stated that, I want people to think for themselves in future rather than toe popular perceptions. We have forgotten to question ideas and views expressed in mass media, thereby, defeating democracy itself. So, lets begin by questioning the popular perceptions expressed in the media. Finally, we definately need to do something rather than sit quiet and allow the society to deteriorate. Alcoholism and drug addiction are two biggest problems facing the youth. Other vices also also need to be tackled. My feeling is that educated people need to first understand this problem, the intensity of it and build opinion against it. Pubbing cannot be stopped altogether. Just as liquor cannot be stopped. We can only build opinion against these rather than make it popular which the media is doing. There are no single, clear-cut answers. But first, lets understand the evils ourselves.

First it was pseudo secular now it is pseudo liberal.  So anyone who does not think the way you think is pseudo-something is it? 

I don't think there are too many people on this forum who don't think that alcoholism is a problem.  I also don't think that people become bad because they smoke a cigarette or have beer at a pub.  If someone wants to have a drink or two - man or woman - they should be free to.  If after they drink they make a nuisance of themselves, they should be hauled up.  If they kill someone by driving in a drunken state they should be sentenced to many years in jail.  BTW - I am a teetotaler and don't spend my time partying at pubs.  I have better things to do - but that does not give me the right to go around telling people what to do. 

Most of us here have a problem when a mob in the name of Hindu culture goes about vandalizing public and private property and beating up men and women.  That is what this thread is all about and you seem to be in agreement.

Do you know the amount of hard work it took to get the Magna Carta signed.  Do you realize what a great victory Habeus Corpus was in the 13th century when a king could just jail you or have your head cut off?  Or that you could be burned at the stakes if you believed that the earth went round the sun and not the other way.  Your fundamental rights are what allow you to be a free human being in a country and not a slave whose existence is at the whim of a ruler.  Don't blame democracy or our consitution or our fundamental rights for society's problems.  Our constitution is what separates India from a banana republic. 

Srivathsa

The only thing that is required is a licensing body that will determine if any person is fit to become a parent :), to solve all the so-called "evils" of society. 'Thankyou for smoking' is a must see movie (infact educational) for the people who complain about morality and society.