Meeting with Mr Sood - minutes

First up, Mr Sood knew Praja, and has been reading some of the posts here. His description of us was a 'group blog', and I took the opportunity to tell him that blog is our front, we want to be more than that, and the stress is on constructive and fact based insights etc etc etc (you get the idea of our 2 minute pitch)

He said he wanted a longer meeting with us. The time we preferred (morning hours, he had suggested afternoon 2pm) meant that we'd get only 30 mins. Next meeting should be in the afternoon we promised, and he said he will be able to give us more time then.

He told us about his mandate and his challenges. Summary of his description was (we know this, and have talked about it on the website), he has to do the best he can with the resources he has. He has gone around the developed world and seen things there, and he himself knows and feels the need for a lot of what we say. Contrary to what many think, there is not a whole lot that he can change himself. He went on to give an example of fine amounts. There have been suggestions asking the amounts to be raised (all fines are more or less in the range of Rs 100). But he said that he doesn't have the power to effect that change. Its a central government thing (amounts fixed via Central government's motor vehicles act). This talk reminded me of our meeting with BMTC where we asked about Bus Bays, and Mr Tripathy had said - India Road Congress's standards don't include provision for a bus bay, so one has to go change those standards first.

Anyway, we told him we know this stuff a bit, understand that his jurisdiction and authority is limited, and less than what people perceive it to be. We told him that we want to explain the details of this aspect to all via our website/community. We said and he agreed that media doesn't cover or highlight this aspect of their job. Personally, I do agree. Before we criticize, we must understand the workings, and figure the real party or parties the criticism should be addressed to.

We expressed a lot of interest in BTRAC . Actually, we didn't have to. He was very proud of the things his deptt has been doing as part of BTRAC. We asked him how to keep in touch with all BTRAC work, we only have KRDCL tenders and limited media reports to go by. He said they are constantly updating Traffic Police website to expose BTRAC status, and he can always tell us as and when we ask.

Some of the BTRAC things he mentioned are known to us, a lot is not. Thermoplastic paintings on road to mark the lanes, standard road signs (work is on), 170+ vehicle actuated traffic signal systems, 40 centrally controlled live cameras on major junctions, 5 high speed violation recording cameras, lot more traffic lights and some more. All of this is work in progress, as in, there is more to come.

At the end of our meeting, he arranged for us to go and see his Traffic Management Center. so we drove off to Ashok Nagar police station, and were introduced to sub inspector Mr R Sudhir. He showed us the cool stuff. 40 live cameras, with controls to zoom (we could clearly see the license plates), and pan (direction of sight). Mr Sudhir passed us on to Mr M Arun from BEL, who told is about the traffic lights. BEL has installed vehicle triggered lights at 174 (thats a big number, I was surprised) traffic junctions in Bangalore. These are special signals that are driven by a magnetic sensor. Sensor changes the signal from green to red if no vehicle passes for, say 5 seconds. Or, the signal turns green only when a vehicle is sensed to be present.

Arun also told us about the synchronized signals. Forgot the number, but there are some 'synchronized corridors' where, lights are turned green one by one in such a way that if you drive at prescribed speeds, you will get all green (or all red, depending on your luck).

30 mins with Mr Sood, and 45 mins at the TMC, we learnt a lot of things we didn't. Was nice meeting them all, and I am sure we can build a working relationship with Mr Sood. He would like us to understand their operations and constraints, and expose their workings to all. If we provide suggestions that recognize their constraints and situation, I don't see why he won't be game. But he said one thing that we must understand. He gets suggestions aplenty, 100s a day via email itself! And a lot of things he gets are common sense. So here is our chance, understand them well, and suggest smart stuff, and not the common and obvious.

Forget suggestions etc. Lets just meet him and his dept folks a bit more, and build on our understanding of how they work and deal with our disorganized city's traffic. Rest will follow automatically.

Here is a quote that stuck. The most common request he gets is for speed bumps. Mr Sood said, "everyone wants one speed bump next to his house, but no bumps anywhere else in the city" :)

Some specific facts that we got to know yesterday –

All most all the road signs in Bangalore are being painted with world class synthetic paints (all of us should have seen them by now). In the last 3 months 50,000 sq meters of roads signs were painted and the target is 200,000 sq meters.

If one has observed traffic timers no longer work. I was of the impression that these were out of order. Mr Sood pointed that the actual reason was these timers have become redundant, as all the signals have now been changed into vehicle actuated mode from the fixed time mode.

The old sign boards are being thrown off and being replace with new sign boards which meet international standards (look out for those traffic sign boards with the “B-TRAC” sign on them).

Currently there are 176 traffic signals in Bangalore and all them managed from TMC (Traffic management center), in Ashoknagar Police Station. Around 20 new signals are being added every month. Total of 204 new signals will be added. All these signals are solar powered with six hours battery backup and also connected to the BESCOM power grid. They are connected to TMC via optic fiber cables managed by BSNL (this is something that worries me lot).

Cameras – two types are in use “Surveillance” cameras and “Enforcement” cameras. Surveillance cameras will be used for general surveillance. They have very good resolutions. They are all controlled from TMC. They have a range of 1.5 km and can be rotated 360 degrees.
Enforcement cameras are also called Red Speed Cameras. These cameras automatically take images (3 in nos) of vehicles which violate traffic signal or break speed limits. These images are communicated to the concerned person, who looks up the RTO database to find the address and traffic tickets are sent directly to the residence. These systems are just 3 months old, and eventually they will all be automated (the numbers will be automatically read from the images, mapped to the RTO database and tickets will be generated with out any manual interventions).

Currently there are 40 surveillance cameras and 5 enforcement cameras. The surveillance cameras will eventually be increased to 160 numbers. They were not sure of the enforcement camera numbers.

Mr Sudir was showing us the images of a junction. Interestingly we didn’t find any police personal at that junction and out of curiosity we pointed this to him. He sent out a message from his walkie talkie and magic, the traffic policeman was at the junction with in seconds.

I am surprised the main stream media has not reported on all this. I am sure that traffic violators will be more careful next time, if they know that someone is watching them.

Facts apart, Mr Sood was were welcoming and regretted that he had to stop the meeting in just half and hours time. He asked us to come again so that we could talk more. Infact he had some plans in mind for Praja.

We are trying to get information from TMC on how much is the cost for each camera. What is the revenue that is generated from them (from fines), how many days does it take for the camera investment to break even (!!!), how many traffic tickets have been give out by the system, when the system will be fully automated, etc.

There's not much that has not been covered between Pranav and Rithesh. The take home as far as I am concerned, after the meet, is the definite feel that we finally seem to have a platform through which we all can have a say in the goings on, particularly when we have as proactive an officer as Mr Sood at the helm.

At the Traffic Management Centre, I got a close look at the Sony World junction (in Koramangala) - boy, never again am I going to risk violating any rule there, or, for that matter, anywhere, since more and more junctions are getting covered under the surveillance scheme. Well, I am very much a law abiding driver. But, on the fatal Friday (25th), at around 1.30 noon, I was stopped by the traffic police for taking the left at the Sony World junction (coming from Indiranagar side), supposedly after the lights had turned red (there's no automatic left there). The police lot were very polite, and I paid up Rs 100/- without a murmur.

I mentoned this to Mr Sood, and complimented him for the fact that his men were now beginning to stop car drivers also, even grey-haired, which had generally not been the case so far. When I guggested to him that his people should be targeting bigger offences, and charging higher, is when he stated that the law did not provide for charging heavier fines. As to the matter of targeting bigger offences, we will take up subsequently.

The Sony World junction signaling system has a certain defect, which was partly the cause of my commiting the violation. I have since studied this and shall try to have it rectified through the TMC.

Muralidhar Rao

I have a small suggestion to make. I now understand that the traffic police cannot increase the fines on their own. The central motor vehicles act needs an amendment. In that case, can the police charge cess or something like that everytime an offense is committed? I mean collection of fine on some other pretext but it should still be legal?

Moreover, what can be done about the amendment to the central act? Can we do something about that? We should also see that fines collected go directly into the coffers of the traffic police and not the government!

Am off to Singapore tonight for 5 days.  Could not make it yesterday as too many last minute jobs to finish (IT Returns being the most important).

Looks like you guys had an excellent meeting.  Impressed with the usage of technology.  I just wish there was more awareness among the general public that they are being watched.  Maybe some board at important junctions - saying "Survelliance Camera here" in Kannada and English.

The reason I say Kannada is that some English signs make no sense to the people here.  There is a sign saying "Yield" near Windsor.  Someone sitting with me (well read and so on" asked me - What does that mean?  "Give way to traffic on your right" makes more sense.

Srivathsa

Thanks Praja members for the update

As with others I am highly impressed by the Control centre with high tech stuff

i am glad that praja could make an impression too

thanks to Mr Sood for the patient hearing

were any of our suggestions passed on to Mr. Sood for consideration

if not all at least some can definitely be incorporated

Srinath Heragu

So is there a resource online or otherwise which can help us understand the functions of Bangalore city traffic police and their boundaries (ie what they cannot do)?

Hi

Nice to hear that ppl are aware of praja... and feels good to know the developments been made on the traffic management front.... hoping it gets better...!!

Cheers

Raj

 

 

From your meeting I understand "painting of roads" is within the responsibilities of the Police department. I am dissapointed on the standards (not quality or luminosity of paint) of road markings being done. Some of the problems I see which Mr sood will be well aware as he has visited many countries.

1. Lane widths not consistent or incomplete. Outer lanes are not complete lanes at all (ex. Bellary road between mekhri circle and Sanjaynagar junction or like on Sankey road between Cauvery jn and the BDA magic box where only innermost lane eists the rest of the road is one big lane. Why isnt there seperate lanes with chevrons to move traffic up and down the magic box?)

2. Shoulder snakes with pavement and not with the lane.(ex again bellary road same strech, airport road and many others)

3. Where there is confusion I see that the paint also dissapears as thought the engineerign/marking team decided to leave that for the commuters to sort out. (ex. cauvery jn from mekhri circle where 4 lanes 3 from mekhri circle and one from bhashyam circle merge into 2. all lanes dissappear near merge point without graceful merging. When you get off the BDA magic box towards windsor manor there lanes or off and not continous. No chevron for merging traffic anywhere etc)

4. The painting and road signs dont indicate exclusive turn lanes where the right and straight signals are asynchronous (Ex cubbon road kamaraj road intersection. Right turn traffic blocks straight thru traffic, right lane can be indicated turn only lane)

The above are concrete suggestions which I assume are within the departments scope of operations and doesnt require change in laws or complex buck passing. I am sure after all the investment in paint is done it will be hard to redo everything so why not do it right now? It will be interesting to know what gives?

thanks ids. excellent post.

Shoulder snakes with pavement and not with the lane. Where there is confusion I see that the paint also dissapears as thought the engineerign/marking team decided to leave that for the commuters to sort out.

fix throughfare widths or atleast lane widths. 6mtrs,9mtrs,12mtrs or whatever. even if there is a 7.2 mtrs roads, the actual throughfare must only be 6mtrs.
View Larger Map Is it possible to get a copy of the IRC standards manual? Our next round of interaction we should check out their design codes.

Here you go...

http://www.irc.org.in/publicationforsale/markings.htm

You will have to purchase it.... 

I was excited to discover that Praveen Sood is from IIT Delhi and IIM Bangalore. I am excited because such a learned man being ACP Traffic has the knowledge and authority to deliver traffic solutions for our city called Bangalore (Bengaluru).

I am also excited to see this site hosted by the government which provides an open platform for govenament - public dialog. I wish I could have attended the meeting with mr. Sood, as Traffic Optimization is a subject near to my heart.

 I have my own thoughts on Traffic Optimization which I try to articulate in my blog. http://developingbangaloreonline.blogspot.com/  I wonder if I could take part in one of the "meet Sood" meetings. I do not know how, at the moment. I will find out! I would like to thank Mr. Sood for having taken time off to arrange such meetings. I am sure this initiative of his will not go waste.

Pranav's minutes were excellent! I did not read it for quite some time, thinking it was another babu writing it! Now I have read it. I feel "Praja.in" is a great thing happening in Bangalore. Thanks to Web2

 ---- Ananthram PS, a Senior Citizen.

 

Click here for an example of how detailed road marking specifications need to be.. I dont see any similar methods being followed in Bangalore... only hope we can follow as much before "painting" any further.

Click here for the complete MUTCD standards for the US. Unlike IRC which considers their pathetic standards a state secret the US publishes it online for all to see and learn

ids thanks. these types of reports are good guidelines to follow. i also saw that irc link you posted. i really want to get it. but dunno if they can mail where i live. anycase, i want to wait for a few days before i get worked up on that. but that will be a good reference to have. thanks again.

heragu sir, amber is a safety buffer. bcoz it is normal human tendency to try to beat the red. also how else will you indicate that the green cycle is about to end.

First of all. This is awesome. I never though this kind of stuff is possible in India. It is amazing what you guys are doing. I have read in reports that it has been very difficult to fill open positions in traffic police. Is this true ? Was this mentioned in your meeting ? I have noticed that the general media is fairly harsh with the law enforcement and the job is always looked down upon. In the west the police job is glorified. Is there are a role for us to help build the image of a cop/traffic police. This might help in attracting good talent for the job and also ensure some pride in what they are doing. I am sure that the compensation is not enough to attract the best talent.

Excerpts from today's New Indian Express:

Government proposes to introduce a Bill in the monsoon session of Parliament to amend the Motor Vehicles Act 1988 for enhancing penalties for traffic offences. These amendments include provisions for on-the-spot suspension of driving licence of a drunken driver for up to three months, an official statement said here on Wednesday. The amendments also include imposing a fine of Rs 5,000 on a negligent driver who causes injury to a person or damages property.

Muralidhar Rao

The bill, I expect, will be just fixing the upper limits, with the exact amounts left to be decided by the jurisdictional officialdom.

Muralidhar Rao