There are no dustbins in my locality...damn!

Reply from BBMP would most likely be - dustbins get stolen fewdays after we put them, so its a losing battle.

Designing street furniture for our country is a challenge because of above reason. Concrete, fixed to the ground bins could be the answer. Or may be metal bins chained or welded to the electricity poles.

Regardless, you only have to go to whatever large dustbins you have in your neighborhood and you will find that dustbins only define the "approximate zone" where the garbage needs to be dumped. The dustbin is like the bulls eye in that zone - those who 'shoot' garbage bags at it, don't get it perfectly right at times :)

Incidentally, an old Praja member from Mysore, Mr Vijendra Rao is about to start a cleanliness campign. He will be posting the details very soon. Will be interesting to track and help him.

However valid the reason may be of  there not being a dustbin on the street, isn't that person giving a lame excuse?  Doesn't he have a dustbin (or at least a small plastic cover in) in is house where he can temporarily throw the cigarette packet? 
Now, the reason that there are no dustbins on the street is because that more people like him are the ones running BBMP who will readily give more excuses for why there are no dustbins on the street.
Read the following post of mine which illustrates the excuse based mentality which is responsible for a lot of maladies afflicting us - http://praja.in/pune/discuss/2008/07/traffic-chaos-and-reforms-analysis-and-way-forward#comment-6268  Contrast this with good governance and a reasonably disciplined society can do half way around the world from Bangalore - http://praja.in/discuss/2008/08/out-sight-out-mind#comment-7404 

 

 while doing their morning walks elsewhere..hence as blrpraj says its just a lame excuse!

BBMP had funds till now and with a little of that and a lot of curruption they were keeping the streets cleen..however the funds are drying out..and so will the cleaning measures soon..

Its high time we practice restraint in throwing garbage anywhere and everywhere..else we will become the dirtiest city soon!

(Before I say anything on this topic, here are the mandatory disclaimers:
a. My observations below are not based on any scientific data collection and analysis and are purely anecdotal, b. This is not intended to start a KA vs. TN flame war and c. I do not owe any allegiance to Chennai/TN)

I  recently found myself in Chennai for three days with a car at my disposal and lots of time to kill -- perfect recipe for some good old fashioned people-watching ( or to make it sound better -- "embark on an anthropological quest of sorts"). A couple of  things that struck me about the city were: the city (or at least the parts that I visited) is generally cleaner than our fair city and the construction debris was better disposed off. I noticed that they were also in the midst of a massive road median building exercise and so there was a lot of construction activity.

What I observed about their garbage collection is this. They have modern garbage trucks (like the kind they have in the west), the garbage collection squad was better equipped with overalls, gloves, boots etc., their process for door to truck movement of garbage is better planned and executed. Consequently, I did not see too many unsightly heaps that is commonplace here in B'luru. It makes me sad to see our garbage squad shovel the garbage while waist deep in it inside what look like WWII surplus trucks. 

Since coming home I have done some research on how Chennai has been handling solid waste disposal. I also read that according to some survey, Chennai is the "second cleanest city" in the country after Chandigarh (which claim I am not ready to accept  at face value since I am a frequent visitor to Chandigarh). Also, as a part of my research I came across the following clip that you may find enlightening. This is what I had a chance to observe first hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOmi0KNnfj8

The clip is from about a year ago and the crew today seems to have got better at handling the transfer from the streetside carts to the truck. The point to make here is that after door-to-door collection of garbage, it does not get dumped on street corners. Instead it goes into garbage bins on wheels custom-designed  to interface with the garbage trucks. The result is that the garbage heap does not spread across the entire street and the city, rag pickers can't go to work on it (matter of fact, in Chennai they have become stake holders in the whole enterprise getting paid for door-to-door collection) and stray dogs don't get fed and multiply (might not be good thing if you are on the other side of this debate).

Alongside the garbage disposal infrastructure, Chennai has launched a campaign to educate people about the proper disposal of household and other garbage. nteresting to see if it is working better there.

If Chennai can do this, why can't we?

And by the way, Chennai it appears, has also launched a massive road median building exercise like us but I suspect that their medians will look a lot a lot better in the long haul since they are built hollow unlike our medians and they use hollow as a planter for flowering bushes (assuming that they have water to feed the bushes).

Anybody has any other ideas?

No cleanliness has to be taught in schools. It is mandatory to teach children to not throw it around and find a trash can to throw it. Should be enforced within school limits. If the schools arent doing it we know where we are going wrong.

But, Oh wait, they cant find a trash can on the streets!!! Now you also need to teach them, in Bangalore, to stuff everything into their pockets till they get home. You can tell the guy smoking in public place (since we can only do that there) to put his cig butt in his pocket after smoking till he gets home.

but the problem we are discussing here is bigger than that.

I invite you to come to Richards Park (in Richards Town in the Cantonment area). In my opinion, it is one of the best  small parcel of real estate in all of Bangalore. It is a rectangle-shaped park and there is a bin fin the middle of every side measuring about 100 meters. The most distance one has to walk to throw your garbage is 100 meters and  yet I see trash piling up.

Hi All,

Interesting discussion here about garbage & dustbins (or the absence of them). I just returned from Chennai & I agree with VVR. Many of the areas in Chennai, barring a few isolated ones appear cleaner & better managed than Bangalore.

In India, Mumbai & Bangalore are the only two cosmopolitan cities - & perhaps also the dirtiest cities in the country. Elsewhere, New York is truly the only "international" city in the world - & it is dirty too by western standards !  It's subway system is being referred to as "similar to third world metro systems", etc.

Do we see a similarity here ? Some decades ago (1970s & 80s), Bangalore was much less cosmopolitan & far more cleaner than now. In fact, it was one of the few clean cities in the country then. Mumbai & NewYork have always been dirty - they have always  been "cosmopolitan" !

Perhaps the feeling amongst us is that the city does not "belong" to me or to anyone else, so why should I bother so much about cleanliness ?  What are your thoughts on this angle to the mess around us ?

Cleanliness or driving behavior, - these discussion have similar patterns. We blame ourselves (people), talk of long term plans like educating kids about these in the school etc.

Talk to BBMP, they will blame people on cleanliness. Talk to Police commissioner, he will blame people for the chaos on roads. But at the end of the day, they are entrusted with taking some initiatives to "induce" the behavioral change. Governance is not merely about keeping things operational in best practical ways.

Long term talk (teach kids in school) is fine. But its again about working on all three Es.

The rote Education alone doesn't really help (come and see examples in the very educated community I live in and I will show you what I mean). Or, just judge yourself honestly as a driver, and you get what I mean.

Kids learn the most from their seniors - at home (parents), and outside (relatives, friends). We are those "seniors". Our behavior gets shaped by the levels of enforcement present in our environment. Today, the kids get one message from the books and school, and another from their parents and seniors. What they do is - swallow the good stuff mentioned in the books as "nice and utopian" stuff and then move on. If we had visible enforcement measures in place for our kids to see that the society has things in place to punish (fines etc) those who don't follow the "good" stuff prescribed in the books, chage will come faster.

A simple analogy. The reason most "educated" kids don't turn into murders or dacoits because they see it being shown as "bad" on TV and papers, and see their parents not do such things. The education they get on these matters (of serious crime) gets re-enforced in the outside world.

"Visible" enforcement, coupled with strong messages on "public media" would be a good short term strategy to fix the cleanliness problem. idontspam, yes, we'd need some backing infrastructure as well (like dustbins).

Hi,

There had been cases of plague in India at Surat, Gujarat around 1995 (if I remember correctly).

Surat municipality had been thoroughly shaken up & today, surat is one of the cleaner cities.

Things are degenerating to very low levels in the city, & BBMP needs a thorough shake-up.

The absence of dustbins should not be used as an excuse by people to dispose their trash anywhere along the streets, as much as BBMP cannot blame theft for the absence of refuse bins in public places. If theft is so much of a concern, they must find ways to erradicate & solve the menace.

Pre-cast concrete bins with a small hinged steel door at the lower end (to facilitate removal of garbage from the bin easily) may be a possible solution. Such bins would be too heavy to steal & are of no use to vandals, but can be moved or relocated by BBMP winch trucks as necessary.

but  only to get to the root cause of the problem (as they say, you have to use the "5 whys" technique to get the root)

If we are to fishbone chart  (aka Cause and Effect Diagram) the root of this problem, I would think that two major bones (or causes) of the chart would be a. the source of the garbage (why is there garbage?), b. the disposition of the garbage (what is done with the garbage?). There will be other ones, I am sure. Without absolving the authorities of their responsibilities, let us look at the first bone -- why is there garbage? who generates the garbage? etc.

 ...I live in an area where most people know and want to throw into a bin on the streets. But, there are no dustbins in my locality...damn!

You could only be making this assertion either because you know each one of the people in the area and they have made you a promise that they will throw their trash  only in the bin, or  on inferences drawn on some general and common characteristics of the population of the area (level of education, socio-economic status, level of civic mindedness, a  proclivity or a religious adherence to cleanliness, etc.). I am inclined to think that it is the latter.

I have given you two examples  -- RMZ, Millenia and Richards Park ( neither of which are the underbelly of the city -- and BTW I routinely see used up sugar packets lying around on the floor at the Coffe Day bar in the arrival area of BIAL when there are bins at hand)  where bins are provided and yet random trashing of the public space goes on. What makes you think that it won't happen in your area? -- I am not challenging you, I am asking the question to understand if there is a certain characteristic that exists in your area that predisposes it to be garbage-free (if garbage receptacles were provided).

...provide the bins and then we will talk.

It is like asking driver to follow the speed limit signs then they all have to travel only on the NH to the airport. Tell the school kids to throw garbage in bin then all have to make a trip to Richards park.

I am afraid this is somewhat specious assertion.  School children, adults, invalids, everyone is told in litter-free socities that if you cannot find a trash can, then you have to carry it on yourself. There is a whole system of wilderness areas in N.America that are very much accessible to the public that provide bins only at the trailhead. Once you are on the trail you carry all your trash on you because there is no place to dispose them. Sometimes, this requires the hauling of 3-days worth of trash for upto 8-10 miles. In fact the motto is -- "you pack it in, you pack it out".  That may explain the difference between two very special and pristine areas -- Abbie Falls in Kodagu and the back country trails in the Yellowstone/Grand Teton area. The trash at  Abbie Falls is mostly bite-size wrappers (Pan Parag, Chewing Gum etc.) although there is a lot of it. You mean to tell me, one cannot carry half a dozen of these wrappers in ones pocket.? After all you carried it in, why can't you carry it out?

Back to the other bone -- what is done with the garbage? There is plenty of blame to go around -- incompetent BBMP, corrupt contractors, etc. etc. My earlier post comparing Chennai and B'luru was in the spirit of learning from best (ok, may be "just a little better") practices in our own backyard.  We need to attack this as well but where does one start?

I live in West London, an area populated by Asians. In our residential development, 95% are educated highly skilled migrants from India.

http://adhiraj.joglekar.googlepages.com/A_few_more_steps_will_do_us_all_good.pdf

I had to put the above poster up in our residential development at entry / exit point and also one at one of the bin bays.

The pictures tell the story of what we Indians are habituated to. The brain is a blank slate when born, up on it is imprinted a programme generated by our experiences as we grow. The programmes we end up with are on avid display in the images on the above link as well as on our roads.

Question is - can we re-programme? Changing the hard disk from 5200 RPM to 7200 RPM (i.e. putting dustbins) and from 1gb (my first PC in 95 was just that) to 250gb (installing as many bins as one can at every nook and corner) is one part of the solution.

Will it suffice? The 70 odd Indian educated middle class families in my residential development have the best possible infrastructure available when it comes to disposing their garbage - but that alone has been worthless.

Has there been  a change since putting up these posters? I had presumed the posters will be pulled down in 48 hours. 3 weeks later, both are still on full display (even weather has been kind to them).

I am delighted to share with Praja that there is a remarkable difference after putting the posters up. I still see the occasional plastic bag lying on the floor (not all dogs can be trained), but on the whole, compliance with the poster has caused reduction in bin bags being left on floors by 90% if not more.

VVR - go ahead (take your few more steps) and lecture the students, get the school authorities involved, show them images of the streets abused by them, the insult and disrespect shown to our Nation...........hopefully like me you will see a change (bins will come when they come, but there is no excuse why kids and adults can't carry their garbage to their bins at home).

ASJ 

 You mean to tell me, one cannot carry half a dozen of these wrappers in ones pocket.?

Where there is a bin there is a way,

Where there are none... its not going to be fun.

 

We need to attack this as well but where does one start?

You start with education, I will start with clamour for the bins.

  psaram42 avare,

 As saying goes, the mirror always tells the truth. What ASJ has described in the post is 100% truth. There is nothing denigrating in what he has said being Indians. By nature we as Indians have some inherent habits, one among which is not doing our part in maintaining the cleanliness, if there is no enforcement or force. This is what we see in Cubbon Park, Lalbagh, Cinema Theater etc. After the events is over the litter is all over the place. We are no better elsewhere, be it in UK or USA.

 I would like to walk with me on any event organized by Indian community in USA. Be it Independence day celebrations or festivals like Ugadi, Ganesh Chaturthi etc. See for your selves how we behave.

 Now lets walk to other public places like parks, Malls in USA, the same crowd would behave differently. Park it in orderly manner, throwing trash in the bins etc. But when we are in our own atmosphere, we are back to square one.  No order in parking, trash is not thrown in bins etc. I can go on. Because of this reason, some of the Indian organizations are black listed in local county authorities in renting the public places for events. Education, enforcement is the only hope to change in our habits.

 

 

 

 

@PSA
//Was my comment “Dust Bins were got rid of” a lame excuse Doc?
My comments were not directed at you nor your post. I was responding to the author of this thread and most specifically the comment  "Immediately, he retorts back by saying that there are no absolutely no dustbins around. "  in the first post of this thread. If you got a chance to read one of my posts that I had referred to earlier -  http://praja.in/pune/discuss/2008/07/traffic-chaos-and-reforms-analysis-and-way-forward#comment-6268 that was the same(or similar) reply I got from quite a few people in Delhi airport terminal 1B. 

In my opinion it is completely irrelevant what system is used for garbage collection & disposal ..wether there are dustbins or not, whether there is door to door garbage collection or not. The reason I say this is because I have expereienced both systems - door to door garbage collections (from independent homes in the US as well as common dustbins at apartments in the US), I was in the unusual predicament once in the Seattle area where the garbage bin in my apartment was quite a distance away and I had a lot of garbage and packing material & other waste to get rid of, so I had to haul it in my car (left to myself in Bangalore I probably would have given the excuse that the garbage bin was too far off knowing that I would not have to face any consequences and can get away with it).  What really matters is that all of us (and especially the individual identified in the original post as throwing the cigaretter packet) follows this golden rule - THOU SHALL NOT THROW THY GARBAGE INTO ANYTHING OTHER THAN A GARBAGE RECEPTACLE IN A PUBLIC PLACE. This is the rule I follow in bangalore, collecting banana peels in a paper or plastic bag when in the auto/bus/any pother public place and waiting till I get home or find the next garbage receptacle.  This is taught by parents in western countries and I have seen parents enforcing this on their children in more than one instance.

 Sayed, SB, ASJ and Naveen

The discussion on this thread started basically on placing of dust bins every where handy for people to get rid of their disposables as quickly as possible. It is well known that every municipal organizations main activity revolves around this and several similar issues. The challenge of designing Street furniture according to me is no issue at all. The real issues are about disposal of hazardous items like

1.      plastics

2.      some electronic items

3.      alkaline batteries

4.      and many more I am not able to list immediately

The municipal organizations need to be more concerned about issues of health hazard due pollution of all sorts, ground water pollution to give an example.

About Indians and Indians being a dirty race etc are real issues, I agree. Yes if we are a dirty race why not improve? It took me about six months to readjust to our Indian conditions after my stay in USA for just two months. So I know how you guys must feel when you shuttle between developed and not so developed countries. Especially Naveen!

PSA

" And at the end of all our exploring, will be to arrive where we started, & know the place for the first time "  -  T S Eliot, Poet

IDS - A thought provoking essay, well written by Per Bylund.

The path to more efficient garbage management & recycling perhaps lies in getting to the very root - developing policies & practices that minimize garbage generation from each of the sources in the first place, be these households, industries, hospitals, factories, or wherever.

The present western practices that first encourage generation of more & more garbage (viz. using disposables wherever possible, attractive & more robust packaging, etc.) & then imposing restrictions for disposal for "saving the environment" actually go against one another.

These practices have now been "exported" everywhere & refuse management has become a nightmare. I think the use of plastics & disposables has already reached unsustainable levels, even in the west.

Every thing in the universe is recycled because matter is neither created nor destroyed (under normal circumstances and at present state of our knowledge base). Life in our planet is carbon based, bio degradable and hence readily recyclable. Not long before cotton bags were used for shopping. Now people want to walk in for shopping without the hassle of carrying any bags because of carry bags being provided by the vender. Now the idea of providing recyclable carry bags is floating around. The shops will provide the plastic/cotton carry bags which are reusable.

One cannot have the cake and eat it too. Can you?

PSA

In the hindu

http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/23/stories/2009032360670400.htm

Following line from the above article especially caught my eye -

“When the Cauvery cinema underpass was constructed, some of the debris was left on the ground and since then people have been dumping garbage here,” says Rajan Balasubramaniam, a doctor residing on Sankey Road.

Looks like people have a natural urge to dump garbage in open space.

Hello BBMP Personnels,
It is our humble request that we are suffering from improper waste management system by BBMP at main area of 3rd Cross, 4th main, Matadahalli, RT Nagar, Bangalore 32.

Are there any monitoring committe for this waste management implementation scheme in BBMP, before we claim ourselves that Bangalore is Clean City, SWACCHA BENGALURU/ CLEAN CITY and so on...

Can you ask them to visit this location then they can realise it. This issue is there not a day or two, it is there for more than a year, after sending many level of escalation no response.

Mayor Sir,
we have sent more than 10 to 15 emails with photos, complaint letter, shared the news to magazine and also to you and your team including health deapartment.

No reponse and no improvement. How long this will continue?

Please respond it. After seeing the following points you may need to change our claims about clean city..

1. This garabage dumped location is used by surrounding school children to board their school Van/bus and playing location
2. Within a meter distance, it has Drinking water diversion box on the ground (Have seen many time that Sewage board person, removed the garbage from the top cover before he wants to open it and divert the flow direction.
3. Within 15 meters A clinic located
4. All sides are covered with houses.

Please have a look at this matter seriously and do the immediate action of moving out this point to somewhere else.

With Regards
Matadahalli Residents