BIAL to City train - proposal on table

Is this a another case of borrowed idea of low hanging fruits, CSR that were suggested on Praja? In past also we have seen ideas/phrases being borrowed from praja discussions. If it is, it's good sign. This also demonstrates that we need to look for low cost, low hanging fruits for all our city civic and commuter issues rather than going for Multi thousand crore projects.

Syed, you are so right. Very frankly, at the state of affairs right now, the government needs to commence with any fruit, even the low hanging ones :).

SB, will confirm, in the infra committee we are proposing just this approach. Unofrtunately most administrators and politicians are judged by the amount of money spent on a project, not the effectiveness or the currency to needs.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

Devesh, SB,

Great stuff.  At least the horse thinks that the water might quench its thirst.  Four trains each way - means 4000 passengers off the roads.  I can't see any reason SWR cannot accommodate  2 trains from SBC (a.m./p.m.) and 2 trains from Bangalore cantt (a.m./p.m.).  If this works, then no need for any blooming HSR.

a. What is the route for this train - SBC -> Yeshwanthpur --> LG Halli --> Yelahanka -->? and Cantt --> East --> Byappanahalli--> Yelahanka-->?

b. Given that most trains chug out of SBC only after 6:00 a.m. (Shatabdi, Lalbagh, etc), can we push SWR to run a train that chugs out of SBC at 5:00 a.m?  This will reach the trumpet at 6:00 or so - good for passengers who want to fly out at 7:30 ish.  The peak traffic out of BIAL is 7:00 to 9:00.   Will also help employees reach their work spot reliably and economically.  The same train can run back from the trumpet at 8:00 (a lot of incoming then).  Similary two trains that chug out at 7:00//7:30 p.m from SBC/BCant and 8:30 p.m from BIAL.

c. Ticketing - need to have many counters if 1000 people need to board this train.  Have a round figure - Rs. 20/30/40 - whatever to facilitate quick issuance of tickets and change.  The rs. 23/34 or whatever will lead to long lines/flared tempers, etc. 

SB - what analysis are you looking for? 

Srivathsa

 

 

Was checking the route the rail tracks take..found it cutting the highway twice and having many turns..

I dont know how railways work but what I have seen of road ways is that NHAI relays roads with fewer curves..does IR do this too?

Curves slows down trains and if we are exploring this as a stable option we need to cut the curves..I am not sure if its a valid suggestion at all..but why not!?

Lets hope BIAL responds positively to the proposal. The timings proposed will not do justice to measure the effectiveness of the service. Good start to 2009 nevertheless. Hope the new year brings better traffic management, better road infrastructure, better pedestrain facilities and better public transport to the people of Bangalore (better=world class, no less)

I do not believe in the long term we need to burden SWR with this CRS responsibility. As a next step I suggest GoK work with BMLTA to create a CRS authority/SPV which will plan for the future expansion of this service. I believe we can use the PPP model for this too where the CRS ropes in a private party to bring in better rolling stock and operational effeciencies. Let this not be run entirely by the state or centre at the same time let this not be completely privatised lest we go the way of UK rail. We are still not good when it comes to regulating private parties.

I had proposed earlier that BMLTA/CRS authority rents tracks and runs the service. I quote below the switzerland model which can be followed in co-operating with SWR. Instead of ordering railways stock we could have the CRS PPP run their rolling stock just for the Bangalore service after paying toll.

***Swiss federal law dictates that the infrastructure (rather the rails) of the entire Federal Railway system must be available to outside parties at equitable prices. Therefore, the Infrastructure division of the Federal Railways receives set "tolls" from all companies that operate on their rails, including their own. Local commuter rail services are "ordered" individually by each canton as a distinct service; this principle of ordering allow the SBB CFF FFS to offset operational losses in this sector of the market. Intercity rail is not directly subsidized since it is profitable.***

The upcoming Devanahalli Business Park and the proposed Hardware Park would in the future have lots of workers coming from the city. This will create the additional frequency required which would support the economics of the CRS project.

Therefore, IMO, the commuter rail link should not be scrapped because of wrong assumptions that there is not going to be enough commuters to begin with. The initial numbers maybe small, but it will grow eventually.

But before implementing the project - it should take into considerations the above points as well. Most importantly as i reiterate again - have a full fledged TTMC at Yarthanganahalli next to the trumpet interchange. 

http://www.deccanherald.c...

HSRL plans may after all go into cold storage!

The BIAL train will be DMU since the line is not electrified. Here is the link of various DMU models available in IR. It also contains the Chikkaballapur - SBC DMU photos which was earlier 8 train coach which has been now reduced to 4 coaches due to less occupancy.

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Suburban/DMU/

and here is the link for the related FAQs:

http://www.irfca.org/faq/faq-mu.html

 

Vasanth,

Thanks for the info on DEMUs/DMUs.  One of the new aerodynamic DMUs is quite good and can pass off for a good "Airport Express".  Agree that the curves won't pose much of a problem - not with a train that is not going to cross 80kmph.  I think without some of those stops, this DMU can finish the run in 45 mins.  A round trip in 2 hrs - 2 DMUs - one train every hour!!! I must stop dreaming. 

Thankfully, (I think Devesh has some hand in this :)), some sense has dawned around this white elephant called HSRL.  With 1/10 of that investment we can add a track from SBC to DHL and electrify it and have a captive power plant to run the EMU!!!  The other thing that has been shelved is that airport expressway as well.   Another 1000cr saved. 

6000-7000 crores spent wisely on good public transport, footpaths, etc can take the load of the roads and benefit 10 times as many people and win them 10 times as many votes from Bangalore.  Devesh - please put this into their heads.

I am pulling out data on how many trains go through Yelahanka Jn daily from the railways website.  Will make an Excel sheet and send it across to Devesh and SB.

Srivathsa

Track between Yeshwantpur and Yelahanka is not occupied much. Track between SBC and Yeshwantpur is double track and this is less occupied compared to the Cantonment route. Here is the timetable of trains between Yeshwantpur and Yelahanka. Please note that we have missed the train which doesn't stop in Yeshwantpur - one such train is Rajadhani Express.

Also note that weekly special trains are more than daily trains. Journey between two stations is 15 minutes, maximum crossing wait time is 15 minutes (much less than our jams). Also we have 2 stations in between YPR and Yelahanka at Lottigellahalli and Kodigehalli.  Chikkaballapur track is almost free since there are only 2 trains, one in morning via Cantonment and other in the evening via Yeshwantpur. Infact, this track is almost lying idle with railways. This is an opportunity for them to get back the investment by running trains with first class compartments. Seeing the current fares of Indian railways A/C chair car, fares can be as low as just 100 rupees for A/C chair car.

 

TRAIN NAME

STARTING STATION

SU

MO

TU

WE

TH

FR

SA

SOURCE

ARRIVAL AT SOURCE

DEPARTURE FROM SOURCE

DESTINATION

ARRIVAL AT DESTINATION

DEPARTURE FROM DESTINATION

GORAKHPUR EXP

YASVANTPUR JN

N

N

N

N

Y

N

N

YASVANTPUR JN

Starting Station

Day 1,07:30

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,07:48

Day 1,07:50

GUNTUR PASSR

YASVANTPUR JN

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YASVANTPUR JN

Starting Station

Day 1,08:15

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,08:37

Day 1,08:38

SBC-HUP PASSENGER

BANGALORE CY JN

N

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 1,18:54

Day 1,18:56

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,19:13

Day 1,19:15

SBC-CBP PASS

BANGALORE CY JN

N

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 1,18:14

Day 1,18:15

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,18:32

Day 1,18:34

BASAVA EXPRESS

YASVANTPUR JN

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YASVANTPUR JN

Starting Station

Day 1,17:25

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,17:43

Day 1,17:45

HAMPI EXP

BANGALORE CY JN

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 1,22:40

Day 1,22:43

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,23:01

Day 1,23:03

MACHLIPATNAM EX

YASVANTPUR JN

N

N

Y

N

Y

N

Y

YASVANTPUR JN

Starting Station

Day 1,14:45

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,15:03

Day 1,15:05

KACHEGUDA EXP

YASVANTPUR JN

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YASVANTPUR JN

Starting Station

Day 1,16:15

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,16:33

Day 1,16:35

 

From the other side it looks like this:

TRAIN NAME

STARTING STATION

SU

MO

TU

WE

TH

FR

SA

SOURCE

ARRIVAL AT SOURCE

DEPARTURE FROM SOURCE

DESTINATION

ARRIVAL AT DESTINATION

DEPARTURE FROM DESTINATION

WAINGANGA EXP

KORBA

N

N

N

N

Y

N

N

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 2,12:53

Day 2,12:55

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 2,13:30

Destination Station

BZA YPR PASS

VIJAYAWADA JN

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 2,15:24

Day 2,15:25

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 2,16:55

Destination Station

BZA YPR PASS

VIJAYAWADA JN

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 2,16:19

Day 2,16:20

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 2,17:30

Destination Station

HUP SBC PASSENGER

HINDUPUR

N

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,08:20

Day 1,08:22

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 1,08:38

Day 1,08:40

CBP-SBC PASS

CHIK BALLAPUR

N

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 1,08:58

Day 1,09:00

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 1,09:17

Day 1,09:18

KRBA-YPR WAINGANGA EXP

KORBA

N

N

N

N

Y

N

N

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 3,02:55

Day 3,03:00

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 3,04:00

Destination Station

BASAVA EXPRESS

BAGALKOT

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 2,09:20

Day 2,09:22

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 2,10:00

Destination Station

HAMPI EXPRESS

HUBLI JN

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 2,04:43

Day 2,04:45

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 2,05:15

Day 2,05:20

HAMPI LINK EXP

NANDED

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 2,04:43

Day 2,04:45

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 2,05:15

Day 2,05:20

YASHVANTPUR SPL

DADAR

N

Y

N

N

N

N

N

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 3,03:15

Day 3,03:20

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 3,04:00

Destination Station

MTM YPR EXP

MACHELIPATNAM

N

Y

N

Y

N

Y

N

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 2,06:45

Day 2,06:47

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 2,07:25

Destination Station

KCG YPR EXP

KACHEGUDA

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

Y

YELAHANKA JN.

Day 2,09:33

Day 2,09:35

YASVANTPUR JN

Day 2,10:30

Destination Station

Bottlenecks are there till Yeshwantpur since Tumkur route shares with this, but track is double and journey is just 15 minutes with 1 block of Malleshwaram station between. So, with 1 hour frequency, we do not expect much bottleneck.

From Yeswantpur to Yelahanka, it is pretty much OK. From Yelahanka to BIAL, it is almost  like dedicated. Double track is also not needed after Yelahanka since we are talking of a frequency of 1hour with 45 minutes journey.

 

spend the Rs.6000 crores in clearing up the traffic inside the city by extending the Metro to places that are not currently covered? 

Devesh - I think the Singapore model makes the most sense.  No dedicated airport link for an airport like Changi seems to work just fine.  You say that it will take 1 hr to reach SBC.  But with the Metro functional it should take no more than 20 mins.   I personally prefer that we put a Metro line to Yelahanka so that NH-7 gets some traffic off.  Ask Mr.Kheny to extend BMIC to NH7 so that E-City gets covered by an expressway.  Ask BIAL to give access from the Cargo side - so that ITPL folks can take SH106(??).  These steps will serve the general population as well.  if all this is done - will a DEDICATED rail link still be justified?

Will the rail link from BYP to the airport be a largely surface line (like HK) so that investments come down?  If it can average 60 kmph it will still cover the distance in 30 mins.   Please push the powers that be on keeping plans sane and not the usual grandiose ones that never come to fruition.

Srivathsa

 

A metro link to Yelahanka and CRS on high frequency mode to Yelahanka will reduce the traffic on NH 7 - therefore largely obviating the need to HSRL. In addition, if the proposed NHAI Thanisandra corridor is given the green light, then yes, it would further bring down traffic on Bellary Road. 

Guys

Before we go further, the original letter from GoK and intent of the post was to inform and request a simpler yes or no on the timings. That intent has been left unanswered at Praja.

A few of clarifications to filter the numerous ideas floating around Yelahanka.

1. Yelahanka station is choked. So please do not look at ANY solution that relies on Yelahanka station. Indian Railways is willing to give track BEYOND Yelahanka so the start station will be BettaHalasuru. In which case you might as well drive to BIA.

2. Forget CRS as a high frequency solution. CRS is meant for high volume, not high frequency (converse to Metro). A tpyical CRS will carry in excess of 1000 people.  Railways can at best provide a high volume solution for peak hour. This is ideally suited for shift based industries which will have a massive movement at a fixed time. i.e. industrial estates including the IT dominated ones.

The CRS is not going to be a long term BIA solution. The current plan is to get the CRS concept through the door, and pry open SWR. Once done, the actual action plan is to connect industrial areas like Bidadi, EC, Malur, Tumkur, etc.

3. Standard rail services have a much larger block size (larger trains) when compared to metro rail services, and world over railways use a block system (one train on one block of track). Which is also a reason why Mumbai cannot increase the frequency of trains.

4. Security. We cannot always assume as the crow flies and put all our eggs in one basket. One strike and the airport gets completely cut off.

5. There is a BMRC long term plan to put in a central line (call it EC-YEL line) that will come up NH7 from Bommasandra/EC side, through Vellara junction, through Kamaraj Road to Hennur Road junction (incidentally which is where my airport track proposal cuts right from ORR to Hennur Road) and then on to Yelahanka via Nagavara and Sanjivini Nagar. I have discussed this earlier. Trust me on the route I have seen the proposals. But this plan is at least 5, more likely 10 years away. It is a very expensive line, as much of this line will have to be underground. There is simply no place to put elevated track.

I suggest and request we continue the discussions about a BIA link, back on the original airport link thread. I have continued my post here. Please click, follow it, and post your answers there.

On this thread let us post a simple yes no to the original query. Will you or, more importantly, your company, use the CRS to BIA as it is proposed now ?

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

Can't the railways use a diesel-electric locomotive? I don't know the cost advantages but seems logical and environment friendly (You don't have to burn coal for the required power).

As the original post indicates, the CRS as designed right now is aimed at the folks working at the airport who work shifts. Goes back to the concept of mass movement at fixed times. As of now there are about 10,000 workers at the airport. So hopefully this will be able to help about 10% - 20% of them.

Sorry about the lack of clarity in the post. I had requested SB, and my error that I did not clarify adequately to him.

IDS, I have no involvement at the airport other than as a passenger, and my company, as an importer or exporter. Added to that, since we are Koramangala based, the CRS will not suit our needs.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

On CRS not being aimed at passengers, I would ask why not? Why build super expensive HSRL or metro central line to the airport spending crores when CRS can serve the same needs? Metro serves both City and Byappanahalli, from there CRS can be utilized to get to the interchange. Only investment is to build a people mover like a monorail or a tram from the interchange to the terminal building.

Of course higher frequency will mean smaller blocks this will mean investment in signalling systems. Far cheaper than extending the metro. Like I said if SWR doesnt want to do it all they need to do is loan the tracks for a fee. A CRS authority can take care of setting up a rolling stock, signalling systems and operate it or use PPP model.

The way metro is going we may not see a line to airport in our lifetime especially if it has to go underground for long stretches. Also Metro should concentrate on being a backbone for the city. Considering best case of 6 million passengers per day those passengers rather be moved inside the city for better efficiency. CRS or HSRL on BOT is a better option than metro.

Incidentally Zurich airport doesnt have a dedicated line. Intercity SBB line to St Gallen and other places will stop for 5 mins at the flughafen station. The only other connectivity is tram line 10 from HB (central station) theu the city. It serves the purpose very well. How many dedicated airport expresses in the world make any money? Taxpayers will end up paying for an airport line when that money can be used to build proper facilities inside the city.

In my view any rail solution..(be it CRS as currently proposed or anything else)..that takes 80 mins from city center to the trumpet interchange plus the additional time and hassle involved in tranferring to a shuttle to the terminal and other areas of the airfield is not an attractive proposition to most users. I am basing the 80mins time from what I saw on this article - http://www.hindu.com/2009... The article says that the running time will eventually reduce but that remains to be seen given the fact that average speeds (including those of even prestigious trains) on the railway system overall have in fact decreased. When we talk about optimization and reducing running times we are opening up a can of worms given the inherent inefficiencies and systemic problems in the railways. How will all those problems be solved in order to optimize and reduce the running time of the BIA train given the fact that there will be higher priority trains..at least on a certain section of the track if not all the way till BIA's trumpet interchange? Sorry to be raising more questions than having solutions, but I see more hope in the Metro than sittingd own and taking on Indian Railways to solve their problems.

The timings of the initial train might not be right. We need to have trains that stop at the trumpet interchange atleast an hour and a half prior to peak hour departures and atleast half an hour or 45 minutes after peak hour landings in the evenings.

I appreciate the fare (at Rs. 8). If frequencies are increased, this will give a huge fillip to travellers, who currently pay a minimum of Rs. 100 for BMTC buses. 

idontspam,
Using the existing SWR rail line, with the proper upgrades and an extension branching (from the SWR line) into the airport itself it is possible to run high speed service directly to the airport terminal from the city. The reasons it is not possible is because 1) this is India 2) we are dealing with a beraucratic Indian Railways 3) most importantly there is no unified sense of purpose, planning and direction from a highly empowered infrastructure task force.

The same kind of arrangement that I have mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph has been accomplished and proven to be successful outside India. We can in fact kill 2 birds with 1 stone - A) railway tracks,signalling system,technology & other infrastructure (at least partially till Devanahalli for starters) will get upgraded to higher speeds and efficiency B) the airport gets a rail link at good speeds. I am no railway expert but any well informed and well travelled person can say that this is THE BEST possible cost effective solution. Unfortunately I have to confidently (and pessimistically) say that this will not happen for quite some time. I am in fact quite amazed that the airport got built in the 1st place. But, I am quite optimistic that some day a 2nd runway and the rail link will materialize (slowly & agonizingly)

Devesh says: No point comparing any country Europe to any other country when it comes to rail integration

I say: This IS the whole point. We are benchmarking wrongly. We are going the US way knowing fully well they also have to change course very shortly. Fine we cant exactly replicate Europe but atleast follow the broad pattern. There is a "loan the rails" option like the swiss that can be considered when working with SWR. We are closing options without a proper due diligence.

Devesh says: Just for your information, the government is toying with the idea of shifting the railway station, and bus stand next to BIA. Sort of a mega transport hub. But it is right now just an idea

I say: This is the best FYI i have come across in a long time. So what gives? If this remains on the thinking board for the next 10 years it will be too late. By getting an evaluation done today we may be able to get the feasibility of CRS evaluated before spending on HSRL.

This whole airport affliction needs to stop now. We can use the NH7 for a long time now. We need to focus back on our transport backbone for the city. We need to start thinking of areas that will not be covered by the metro and put up plans for those. We need some surface tram/BRTS lines on Sankey/Bellary road from MG road metro to Hebbal, on IRR from Byappanahalli metro to Madivala, on ring road from Byappanahalli metro to Peenya, on chord road from YPR metro to mysore road metro. These are major lines that can be covered on surface level connecting places not covered by metro to metro stations thus completing the grid. Rest of inside ares can be connected to the tram/BRTS or metro stations by BMTC. Shorter distances only upto metro/tram stations means better frequency and reach for BMTC. CRS still needs to be pursued regardless of wether it gets extended to the airport of not. If it works for the city it will automatically get extended to our flughafen and our new hauptbanhoff at BIA

IDS,

You've hit the nail on the head and all other parts.  Airport is the tail wagging the dog.  Yes airport employees need to get to work in an efficient and cheap way, but all employees have the same need.   The city needs to be de-congested.  If that is done, the airport noise goes down (I have already seen the noise go down from our friends on Hosur Road) as 50-75% of travel time to the airport happens till you reach Hebbal.

Also agree with Devesh on IR.  They just have no interest in running commuter rail services.   I know a friend who used to be in IR and he gave me a few reasons for it (I can ask him again).

Srivathsa