TV 9 / NEWS 9 - Panel Discussion on 'Bengaluru Suburban Rail Service' aka Namma Railu !

maybe its already been done, but would be nice to see( even at a conceptual level) , a visual depiction of the metro( as envisaged) and the CRS( as envisaged) on a single map.

Especially for the within city limits.

for me this has something to do

a)with the "75 new stations required " statement by RITES( unless thy are mostly outside limits)

b) never realy understood the Metro /CRS interplay ( if there is one) .

cheers .

vmenon

I believe Mr Menon wanted to see a visual depiction of the Metro and CRS routes on a single map. I had checked earlier - Metro & CRS routes are close to one another at flwg locations:

1) Byp to KR Puram - abt 3km;
2) Deepanjali nagar to RV College (Mysore rd) - abt 5km;
3) Majestic to Malleswaram - abt 2.5km

See map below for track routes of both (Metro ph-1 & 2) & all rail tracks.

I agree with 'n'. So easily could have had more comprehensive alignment of the metro if CRS was done first. I only hope they realize the future phases of of metro being pushed in a hurry to the tune of hundreds of thousands of crores are reconsidered and remapped with CRS in mind.

Suburban trains are for middle to outer suburbs & towns that need connectivity with city center. Since commutes are longer (average 33.8km, as per IR yearbook), trains are faster with stations spaced further apart than for urban metro systems. So, generally suburban trains running on inter-city train routes are neither intended nor suitable for shorter, quicker urban commutes such as the routes of a customized urban metro network designed for maximum urban trips based on daily travel surveys.

Suburban trains may prove useful for some urban commutes depending on how routes exist, where stations can be located & how well access to commuters can be arranged & most importantly, how well integrated it is with metro or other modes. As stated in the RITES study report, some overlap between modes (estimated 25% in Bangalore) is necessary, else suburban rail would become a standalone service for only those that live close to suburban train stations & only people from satellite towns. Sharing tracks between metro & railways is not an option since the technologies (particularly signalling) are entirely diferent.

Mumbai's local train system is actually a combination of an urban & suburban system. The city has developed along it's train routes because it is linear with severe land constraints at it's southern CBD areas that attract most traffic. Since other cities do not have such topography nor commuting patterns, sub/urban trains have failed. Hyderabad's MMTS or Chennai's MRTS (as their names suggest) are not really suburban rail systems since they cater to urban areas. Despite this, riderships are too low due to track /route weaknesses as they do not address most of the commuting needs in these cities. Thus, they have opted for metro systems based on daily travel patterns with overlaps of routes similar to Bangalore.

I don't think Bangalore metro is being extended to far-flung areas that can easily be served by suburban rail nor are impoverished areas selectively left out - routes are broadly following what traffic surveys /CTTP have come up with. Assuming Vidhana Soudha as city center, radial distances are appxly 14km to Kengeri, 15km to Anjanapura, 14km to Gottigere, 20km to Bommasandra, 18km to whitefield, 13km to Yelahanka, 15km to Sarjapur rd rail gate, 8km to Hosakerehalli & 15km to BIEC - all within 20km radius as per the wiki metro description. The BIAL extension is the only line that is further (abt 28km) but it has advantages in that it connects the airport to the city metro network & follows a route that is already urbanizing fast (the route is the shortest to airport & also does not overlap with rail track that is passing west of Yelahanka AF station).

From the map above, it is clear that overlaps are along the three most dense suburban commuting corridors:  SBC-Malleswaram (Tumkur line), Deepanjalinagr-RV College (Mysore line) & Byp-KRPuram (Chennai line). If trains are operated as suburban service (with few stations), I think it may actually improve the city's public transport with a shorter, faster option for long-distance commuters. Planning stations for urban commutes in already developed areas may also not be feasible due to dense inhabitation and very high real estate prices.

The assumption that suburban trains can take care of all urban commute requirements wherever it's tracks exist & therefore, metro is unnecessary anywhere along such overlaps is flawed. For example, the suburban route to whitefield does not address needs of a majority of commuters since it does not ply through whitefield's CBD areas whereas the metro route does - having an interchange between the two at KRPuram & Kadugodi will help both modes. Suburban train would cover through passengers whilst metro would cover those bound to & from whitefield CBDs.

Suburban trains can be used for urban commutes (i.e. with reduced station spacing) along the route from Byp to Chandapura - this stretch is developing fast & if the required land for stations /track doubling is acquired soon, it may be all that is necessary for these areas. Inter-city trains are also too few on this route.

Elsewhere, since suburban rail will be sharing tracks with inter-city trains, there is bound to be heavy pressure on tracks (we know that many new inter-city trains are on hold because of track /platform insufficiency). Land acquistion for track expansion & stations is likely to face hurdles, even if GoK & IR/SWR seriously pursue using the suburban system for urban commuting. Thus, it seems very unlikely that the the rail routes Yeswantpur-Byp/KRPuram (via Hebbal), SBC-Byp/KRPuram (via Cant), Yeswantpur-Yelahanka or Byp-Yelahanka can be used for urban commuting needs due to dense inhabitation & land constraints - through passengers will benefit with speedy travel, though. Maybe these are reasons why GoK has opted for the name "Bangalore Suburban Rail Corpn" rather than Commuter rail corpn.

You seem to assume that metro (& suburban rail & bus) commuters would all be traveling from one end to city center or vice versa (i.e. Kengeri to Majestic, Whitefield to Majestic, etc). Further, you imply that since metros have less seats, their route lengths must also be confined to maximum 30-40 min transit time, which will mean that routes must be limited to maximum about 20km even if the city urban agglomeration extends well beyond, similar to what Harsht has tried to say here (see my comment at bottom on the article).

Well, majority of metro users will board & alight at stations inbetween - stations are spaced at 1km intervals for this very reason. For end to city center or end to end commutes, people may have the option of suburban rail which will be faster with fewer stations - I think this was made quite clear in my post above. However, I dont think that suburban rail will continue to remain cheap since IR is reeling under heavy losses & the subsidiy on tickets has to end - it most likely will when aadhar cards have been distributed to all - just wait & see.

For Bangalore, typical commuters would be those from say Rajajinagar, Vijayanagr, Jayanagar, JP Nagar or Indiranagar to places like Shivajinagar, Majestic, City market, Chikpet, MG Road, KG Road or Yeshwantapur & vice-versa. This would form the bulk of metro users. For them, metro would be the most convenient option as suburban routes may not be available or if they are, they may not have halts.

Long-distance passengers will have the option of suburban trains to get them closer from where they can take metro or bus, depending on their convenience. Say someone from Ramnagaram bound for RV college - he would come on suburban train till Kengeri & then transfer to metro or bus to reach his destination; Or a commuter from Indiranagr bound for Bangarpet side - it would be best for him to use metro or bus till Kadugodi & then change over to suburban. This is why metro must reach out to extremities of the UA & hook up with suburban trains so that it can facilitate easy transfers.

I agree with you that efforts need to be made to increase the number of suburban rail stations & in fact, they should build them at 1km intervals in central areas since the lines do not overlap with metro in core areas, but this is likley to face heavy resistance (much more than metro) since huge land parcels are involved.

As for better roads with flyovers & faster buses - this will be temporary when Mysore rd has just been widened. As we have seen, in a short time traffic will increase. In peak hours, all modes of public transport & all roads irrespective of how many flyovers are built or not built or widened or not will choke up with traffic & buses will again become slower.

There are several long metro routes that sprawl across urban agglomerations stretching well over 50km or more & taking 80-90 mins or even more.

A few examples from wiki:

• 4 lines in London's underground (Central Line 74km-49 stns, Piccadilly Line 71km-53 stns, Metropolitan Line 67km-34 stns, District Line 64km-60 stns, Northern Line 58km-50 stns);
• Dubai's Red line 52.1km-29 stns (two more lines 49 & 47km are proposed);
• Singapore's E-W line 57.2km-35 stns;
• Seoul has five lines over 50km;
• Hamburg's U1 line is 55.8km-46 stns;
• Beijing has a 57.1km line (45 stns).

If the number of tracks (& stn platforms) can be increased, suburban trains can be run every 10-15 min, but it may take several decades for this to happen even if it's possible, going by IR's calender!

Metro in ph-3 has lines Yelahanka-Sarjapur rd, Hoskerehalli-Marathalli & Magadi toll gate-NICE rd. So, as of now no metro routes are planned to Hoskote /Bidadi /Anekal. However, if the city does grow outwards further in these directions, metro may well get extended.

If daily station boarding /alighting passengers are substantially high along proposed stations on the route extension irrespective of how long the route is, Metro extension will become necessary. There cannot be restrictions on route length on the basis of fewer seats, long end-to-end time, existense of parallel suburban rail along some stretches etc.

As we have seen, EC, ITPL and also the much older PSU's in this city were developed without any planning of mass public transport options. I was thinking this needs to stop as of now and any further planning like the ITIR needs affordable connectivity like suburban rail in place as it is being formed..

The only way to get the population using a train service is having it get to these work places and making it as the life line for commuting..afterall who would want to drive everyday to work!

The city has already developed as it has - no point rueing, but yes, DULT being a state body, BDA must have a transport wing & its charter must include transport planning in the new areas.

People will use any train (or bus) that is convenient & time-saving for them. SWR tracks are where they are & it is unlikely that new surface tracks will be laid only for use of suburban rail. If new routes are planned, it will be for both long distance as well as suburban rail - like the Kengeri-Chamarajanagar route, Anekal-Bidadi line & Whitefield-Kolar-Chikballapur line. Another line between Nelamangala & Bidadi will also help, but SWR has to take the call based on economic returns. These lines are all on outskirts. I dont think its possible to build new surface routes within city due to land constraints (other than track additions on existing routes), metro is the only option.

Since ITIR will be spread over 40 sqkm & is at a distance of 50km from city, people working there may be based out of townships near Devanahalli or within ITIR itself since residing in Bangalore will be inconvenient for them. It is not possible to plan all industries & developments along rail tracks, like Mumbai has developed. Bangalore has land all around & the natural course of development will be where it is closest to city & along highways - most developments will thus not have rail tracks near them.

The services are currently available on the following routes.

• Ghaziabad Old Delhi New Delhi Faridabad Palwal Kosikalan EMU
• Ghaziabad Old Delhi New Delhi Faridabad Palwal EMU
• Ghaziabad Old Delhi New Delhi Faridabad Palwal Kosikalan Mathur
• Ghaziabad Old Delhi New Delhi EMU
• Ghaziabad Anand Vihar New Delhi Faridabad Palwal EMU
• H Nizamuddin Faridabad Palwal Kosi Kalan EMU
• New Delhi Palwal EMU
• New Delhi Shakurbasti EMU
• Shakurbasti Old Delhi Ghaziabad Dankaur EMU
• Shakurbasti Old Delhi New Delhi H Nizamuddin Faridabad Palwal EMU

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Delhi-Suburban-Railway/119520121427733?nr#

You can see how Ghaziabad which is in UP has both METRO and Suburban  rail connectivity to Delhi. It has even EMU shed which  is  getting expanded. 

Why is that in Bangalore  we  so much hype on METRO when GOK or  GOI  till now has not spent penny for Bangalore Suburban Rail,  where has nearly 10,000  Crore money is pumped in  Bangalore METRO  Ph-1 and another 20,000 crore for the Ph-1 and  8000  Crore for  BIAL connectivity.

So one goes by simple investment returns for Bangalore METRO,  for Rs 10,000  Crore,  bank interest  of 10 % per Annum amounts to Rs 1000 Crore,  per day its nearly  Rs 3 Crore to recover the investment returns  and forget about the operations cost for Ph-1  and  accoumulated  interest for the last 5 years of loan.

Why is that GOK and GOI are hesitant to  take the Bangalore Suburban Rail forward so much further delay in spite of  having Railway Minister  from Karnataka.

Hi sanjeev, syed

Mr. kharge is announcing a series of projects and also laying foundation stones for the same in Gulbarga (perhaps aiming at 2014 general elections, where he represents Gulbarga). Is there a possibility that we can have an appointment with him in the near future, say before end of this month and ask him to sanction a few coaches for Bangalore suburban rail ? I feel once the first train chuggs ahead everthing else may fall in place because people would eventually realise commuter rail's benifits and the support might grow bigger for a larger rail network. Can we have an appointment with him? or even the CM? I think we have to push this one more harder and get it implemented within this year.

Looking forward to your response.

Prakash

There are hundreds of people who are loosing their houses for Metro. Recent Jayadeva controversy is a prime example. These people say , already there is so much of railway network which is not being used properly and we are loosing our property for a duplicated effort. Sometimes I feel it is true. If we would have had a well formed CRS on existing infrastructure, people would not have lost their houses, Bangalore would not have lost too much green cover for Metro, flyover and road widening.

People comment on alternative way only when they themselves loose something, but would enjoy a Metro ride or a joy ride on a flyover if they are not affected. They would want such a facility all over the city.

Commuter Rail and BRTS are low hanging fruits and can save houses and trees too. But these are not attractive for planners and people. We don't need much time unless we make up our mind to implement them. 

I had recently posted on Mysore SSC thread as well as Star of Mysore to start a DEMU between KR Nagar and Nanjangud since lot of people staying here work in Mysore and travel daily. There is no response on SSC, nor the article is published in SOM. This short sightedness today will be a costly mistake tomorrow when the city congests.

Syed,

You put it very well & I think you deserve much of the pat yourself for doggedly pursuing the commuter rail initiative against the many odds listed by you & agree that all forms of mass transport are equally necessary & have their own strengths & weaknesses. Suburban rail has specific purpose that other modes cannot fill just as it cannot substitute for metro /mono /bus - each has its place & purpose for the city.

Needless talk like why metro is ever being built, hype, waste of money, impoverished areas left out, fundamentals wrong, not smart way, ugly viaducts, no overlap in other cities, darshan, few seats, depot too close to CBD, etc seem misplaced & inappropriate. This kind of basseless criticism will not help the cause & in fact may weaken it.

The priority is to arrange meeting with Kharge & push for SPV. Having seen his political arguments on TV previously, I think he is the man that can jet start this - the evidence is there on newspaper reports about various rail projects for Gulbarge, his constituency. So, let's concentrate on that & not resort to mud-slinging.