Commuter Rail meetings with Mr Ananth Kumar, Mr V Madhu - report

Let me state it is hard to have a result oriented conversation with busy people. Mr Madhu is one such person. Some major points

1. GoK is willing to provide money for more trains as many as it takes for IR to run it. This has been the offer for more than 10 years now. It has been taken up hesitatingly now by IR. There is still money on the table ready for trains assuming IR will operate. Ball clearly on IR table
2. Madhu was shocked I was asking for world class rolling stock (ayyo that is very expensive). I can only assume he doesnt want to pour that much money to Indian Railways considering they can very well screw up the whole project if they wish
3. Madhu agreed CRS Operations by a thrid entity like an SPV or doing the whole thing on PPP can be considered. He needed to discuss this with IR COO Mr Goswami. Then again thinking aloud on the SPV & Konkan Railway model meant super long term project length per Mr Madhu, 10 years +
4. Metro to all these places was ruled out by Madhu as there are jurisdictional issues and will need amendments etc.
5. Madhu himself was thinking aloud if it is possible to lay tracks close to IR land but if land acquisition is involved it will become very expensive again. We did mention it may not be a problem beyond Byappanahlli but can be a problem between there & Yeswantpur/Kengeri. He is open to studying that.
6. My suggestion of leasing/renting railway land was met with why would they do it? (I got the feeling then, there goes the CRS down the drain) 
7. My point was there has to be a radically new way of structuring this so IR connectivity to existing towns was leveraged was met with the comment that  working relationship with IR is good but their internal process is long winded so he needs to think of options.
8. My comments that there needed to be lots more stations & accessibility was met with. Yes Yes, let us know what you want in your report and I will commission a prefeasibility report to see what can be done

My takeway was this: is not going to be easy if somebody other than IR has to run it. If IR is running it then be prepared for a nam-ke-waastey service based on their whims & fancies. If GoK is going to put money on tracks, stations etc etc the arrangement has to ensure there is some control on ops by the SPV/PPP etc. IR running & GoK putting crores of investment for IR to screw up doesnt seem appealing to lots of people going by the track record.

 Yes it is hard work but the options of not doing CRS is nasty unsustainable growth of Bangalore setting a really bad example for the rest of the world. It is easier for everyone from administrators to politicians to wash their hands of Bengaluru and say its irreparable, but the citizens are not willing to give up on an ecosystem called Bengaluru which has some really great minds, that can change the world, living in it.

 Spoke to an ex IR friend.  He gave me some insights into this.

a. Railways core job is running trains.  They don't think of anything else - no last mile nothing.  

b. They don't like commuter trains because they are bleeders.  They are bleeders because of the absurdly low fares they charge.

IR will be interested if they can be part of an SPV.  SPVs are not constrained by some of these policies.  You can charge higher fares.

One option is to make an SPV with GoK, BMTC, IR, BBMP as partners (all stakeholders).  GoK led by IDD or Transport Minister tells IR that we want you to run CRS on these sections and we will pay you for the train and track usage.  SPV recovers this from passengers via higher fares and offering last mile connectivity (BMTC/KSRTC buses, autos, BMRC if there is a Metro station nearby).

Leave it to IR and they will run a destined-to-fail service.

He offered help in linking us to the Railway people in case we needed that.

Srivathsa

Refer the following pages on the Indian Railway Vision Document, clearly telling out that Suburab Trains is going to be focus area for further improvement :

Page 8:  6.1 REINVENTING PASSENGER SERVICES WITH 'CHANGE FOR A BETTER TOMORROW' AS THE MOTTO  

 Page 31 : d) Slow-moving Passenger Services

 Page 38  :Suburban services contributing 8% of the revenue year 2007-08

Page 74 : 4 Passenger Business Passenger business will be reorganized into three distinct segments, namely, fast intercity, slow-moving passenger and suburban. A separate organization for sub-urban business, replacement of conventional rolling-stock of the slow passengers by MEMU/DMUs and a range of fast services including high-speed services would be the thrust of the policy.Page 75    h) Adequate rolling stock would be inducted for suburban services. Air-conditioned EMUs would be introduced.

http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/indianrailways/index.jsp

http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/indianrailways/VISION%202020_Eng_SUBMITTED%20TO%20PARLIAMENT.pdf

Indian Railway  has to provide the suburban services for different reasons.

@IDS         Yes it is hard work but the options of not doing CRS is nasty unsustainable growth of Bangalore setting a really bad example for the rest of the world. It is easier for everyone from administrators to politicians to wash their hands of Bengaluru and say its irreparable, but the citizens are not willing to give up on an ecosystem called Bengaluru which has some really great minds, that can change the world, living in it.

 As Citizens of Bangalore we are here to get the CRS service with all sorts of difficulty.  We will move ahead with positive hopes only

We need to have meeting with DRM  / SWR before submitting proposal to IDD as planned before 16/17th June.

  

 

Now public  to understand what Railway Minister is doing for Bangalore and Karnataka

Sanjeev /Syed /Sathya,

I did some checks on suburban rail in other cities - Chennai, Lucknow, etc. There is a suburban system in place between Lucknow & Kanpur & despite huge populations of 29+ lakhs in both these cities, services are low though the cities are only 72km apart. They have only eleven suburban trains between each daily. Of course there are many (84) long distance trains that stop at both stations. This info is as per indiarailinfo.

In comparison, there are 26 daily trains between Mysore (pop 9.9 lakhs) & Bangalore. Every other nearby town has very small population: Tumkur - 3.0 lakhs, Chikballapur - 0.6 lakhs, Dodballapur - 0.9 lakhs, Anekal - 0.4 lakhs, Ramanagara - 1.0 lakhs, Channapatna - 0.7 lakhs, Nelamangala - 0.4 lakhs.

Considering above, I think suburban rail will continue to be a non-starter if pushed for inter-city travel as the numbers were only 1.5 lakhs in 2012. Even if they start services, it will be of very low frequency - maybe four or six trains a day at best. The need is therefore to attract more urban or local commuters to make it viable, but this would require more stations within urban Bangalore.

As per our submission, we had recommened new stations & the list is attached below. Hoodi is coming up, but others are all non-starters so far.

I can see some spaces where stations can still be built. How about campaigning for more urban stations? Kasturinagar, Beniganahalli, Kaggadasapura, Karthik nagar, Marathalli, Sarjapur rd, Horamavu, Hennur, Thannisandra (improvement reqd), Jakkur east, HMT, Jalahalli-east, Gokula, Allalasandra, Sadarmangala - these, if built will change the viability for commuter rail drastically.

 

 

We have discussed this earlier & a summary has been posted above. Hourly trains to Mysore may be viable but not in any other direction as trains will run empty other than during peak hours.

Kindly read & understand the context properly before making comments. Necessity for commuter rail is within the city much more than for places outside. If hourly trains are operated from Ramnagaram or Tumkur, they will run empty almost all through the day except in peak hours & are hence unviable.

What you prefer may be ideal but it doesn't seem to appeal to railways as they have to bear losses for 20 years or until passengers pick up. Even with overloaded trains in Mumbai, local trains are running under heavy losses. MUTP Ph-3 is moving at a snail's pace due to issues with insufficient revenue generation. Unless suburban fares are increased substantially, railways will keep hesitating to start new services. Mysore line doubling will be completed soon, no plan to double Hosur line though. BTW frequent trains are operated to Arakonam from Chennai only during peak hours, not whole day. Likewise to Mahindra city.

Agreed, almost all forms of city public transport run under losses which is why it is unattractive for private parties. So also railways which can incur some losses considering the many benefits it offers like reducing pollution & road congestion. However, railway 2nd class fares have been kept too abysmally low for too long making suburban rail highly unattractive for railways. If fares are hiked up by 50-70%, losses might be acceptable, but as of now, it is doubtful if they will take up any new projects.

Amithpallavoor - I'm not averse to starting any form of rail services. More, the better. I'm only highlighting what the realities are - there are few passengers during off peak hours from suburban towns, as already tested on some routes. Current peak hour demand is being met by inter-city trains. As and when demand increases, they may add more trains by shunting out some from SBC to Baiyyappanahalli where a coaching terminal is planned, but god knows when it'll get built since it hasn't moved by much other than the usual 'announcements' so far. However, there have been some good developments like track doubling towards Mysore, Chennasandra etc. So, capacity can be enhanced to some extent.

NMZ in Tumkur is something positive but do you really think it can support hourly trains all through the day by itself? Tumkur leaders seem quite happy with the present set of trains with sufficient capacity during peak hours to meet present demand, & will of course ask for more if & when demand escalates.

My view is that Bangalore's traffic congestion needs addressing on topmost priority and commuter services can play a part if new stations are added within city wherever possible. They have built a station at Hoodi and also near Vijayanagar, but more are needed like at Marathalli, Sarjapur road, Hosur road etc as the stations closest to these roads are too far to walk from (i.e. Carmelaram & Heelalige).

Trains are already synchronized at peak hours. Staggereing shift timings of factories located in nearby towns may pose obstacles as it will scatter demand through the day making rail services even less viable, even if factories agree to such forceful measures.

 

I think the plan to run trains between BYPL & WFD seems ok as there will certainly be huge demand all through the day. Extending to Bangarpet may not be necessary as there won't be demand. Peak hour demands are anyway being met by inter-city trains.

Agree with you that Mumbai style suburban services will never be possible in Bangalore due to terrain (growth radially outwards in all directions). Road dependent growth history of Bangalore also never included optimal use of trains.

I am worried about BMRCL's financial health as well. A system like Metro shall always have high amount of maintenance related overheads both fixed (Fixed costs like AMC) and variable (Unforeseen expenses because of wear and tear).

EBITDA is often an overated parameter to judge operational efficiency. This is just enough for maintenance and other operational expenses.

The more worrying aspect is the interest on the leverage. Given the huge CAPEX outlays, BMRCL shall need to keep borrowing.

Given all these facts, it might just be a good idea to merge BMRCL and the SPV formed for suburban rail. The assets of Metro could be on the books of the newly formed company and this SPV could use railways' assets to run local trains with a revenue sharing agreement for both box and non box revenue.

BMRCL needs to mop up both advertising, parking and real estate revenue. This business model is not sustainable. 

DMRC was lucky to get interest free loans from the government of Delhi. BMRCL has no such luck.

Naveen, I am not assuming anything. I am only pointing out to GOK's marked reluctance to look at investment options outside of Bangalore.

I am aware of of the fact that Sriperumbudur is yet to connected by Train. Metro might have fueled economic growth in Gurugram or Ghantagram as I would call it. Pun intended! But can we escape the fact that it has abysmal road, drainage infrastructure coupled with perennial water and power shortages?

The woeful infrastructure at GGN's railway station and the neglect of Delhi's suburban railway station by successive state and central governments are well documented. We do not want a repeat of that here. 20,000 crores of interest free loan for Metro from the Delhi Government but not a single pie for suburban rail. This kind of selective funding is counter productive. 

Contrast this with Navi Mumbai, which is spacious, well laid out and planned. The suburban rail was a boon to the populace of Navi Mumbai. The government is also mulling the option of a metro system for Navi Mumbai now. It was an ordeal to reach localities of Navi Mumbai in the 80s, but today it is a breeze thanks to suburban rail. It has prettty good bus services unlike Gurgaon. The rapid metro rail has alleviated intra city commuting woes but transport within GGN is a joke. This also has added to the traffic on GGN's roads.

 A late uncle of mine worked on super conductivity and trains at IIT Powai before dying a tragic death. I am not sure if his research would ever become a reality. :)

The maglev based regional rail will take decades to become a reality.Till then, let us enjoy the tug of war between Delhi, UP and Haryana governments.

http://indianexpress.com/...

Well, there is nothing which stops the government of Delhi from speaking to railways and making sure that the existing suburban rail system does not die.

They can spare a few rupees from their kitty. It would help if there were a few more trains from Delhi to GGN and if GGN station was better connected.

With Present Govt at Center and Exisiting state Govt of GOK will not allow suburban rail to start in next 2 years. 

Only eye wash

 

I am not sure if  the Saffron party thinks of suburban rail/ improved rail connectivity to towns around Bangalore as a project, which could help them gain a foothold over an area which has been largely been a Congress/ JD (S) bastion.

Off topic again, are the management and students of SIT (Siddaganga Institute of Technology) aware of attempts being made by Praja to get Bangalore - a suburban rail network?