Redesign of Hosur Road as model road : Footpath and cycle tracks

Dear Suhas,

To try out our ecologically sustainable technology, I have found an investor who is willing to take the order from BBMP in his Company's name, invest in our design development, detailed drawings and turnkey provision of solution and products including actual installation for remodelling the Silkboard junction and after it has been done and proven beyond doubt that our technology really works, will he invoice BBMP.

That really means BBMP does not have to spend a sue upfront! What better proof of our technology can they get? Only shows how the Private Sector who have actually seen our technology in operation in foreign countries have complete faith in us and the big question of "not being tried and tested in Indian conditions" is not valid anymore!

I have already appraised CE (Major Roads), BBMP about our offer. Wonder what we can do to get them to actually issue the works contract?

Regards

Suhas,

This is excellent to read,

On the footpath material, you might want to check out the new pavement opposite the BMLTA office building.  It looks very pleasing to the eye.  Not sure on durability, but that sort of footpath makes one want to walk on it! :)  Don't have pictures but it is that red checked material that you also find in some parts of Basavanagudi.

One cycle path makes a lot of sense given the cycle traffic and the fact that head on collisions are rather rare in the case of cyclists.  Better to have one 2.5 m track than two 1.5m tracks on either side.

Still thinking on where to place the cycle lane.  With pedestrians means we need to keep the cycle lane towards the inside (not adjacent to the road) as bus stops will be placed and you don't want cyclists riding through the bus stops. 

Or we put bollards instead of kerbstones as separators and keep 1.2 m of cycle lanes adjacent to the kerb.

Srivathsa

 You did put up a picture of cycle track on both sides - that was just for example - wasnt it ?

If you are referring to the crossing, that was only an example. Here is another picture of a cycle/ped xing. Notice the ramp for the cycle crossing on the far end. This ramp is very important without which the crossing becomes irrelevant for cycles.

If you are referring to the sidewalk picture then that was an asphalt single side sidewalk with the yellow line demarcating the cycle track from ped track. Here is another one where the demarcation is physical, with slight depression in the asphalted cycling are vs the raised tiled ped area. Both work well I prefer the paint demarcation (possibly with cat eyes) since it is easier to maintain.

Here is a sidewalk being built with ramp for bicycle track. This is a concrete sidewalk.

Just wanted to mention. Like SY says, you can plan for the side walk on the side where the cycle tracks dont exist to be a little smaller so the space borrowed from there can be utilised on the side where the cycle tracks can be laid. It is not necessary for both sides to have the same size sidewalk as long as they adhere to the minimum standards for sidewalk. The advantage of having tracks on one side is the other side can be used for trees and parking. 

Suhas - further to our meet today -- see picture below :

1) I feel it's best to have cycle tracks & pedestrian walks on both sides, rather than one on each side since there is ample width (3.5m or 11' 6" each side).

2) Asphalting the complete width of 3.5m as a whole may not be acceptable to BBMP since drains need to be desilted & cleaned at periodic intervals. Thus, some type of removable slabs or equivalent have to be placed over most, or all of the 1.4m drain width. Since there is another 0.6m beyond the drain (outer edge), it may be best to fit removable slabs over the outermost 1.8m width, followed by about 0.2m of elevated separator (similar to kerb stones) to demarcate cycle track from the side-walk. This separating divider could be an extension over the vertical side encasement for the drain & could be sadahalli granite (fine cut) which is strong, or cast concrete, painted (zebra stripes, for example).

3) Cycle track/s can be planned outer-most for the following reasons :

a) Allows recessed level (same level as road, or lower) over drain. The drain needs to be at road level or lower to facilitate effective drainage from the street.

b) Prevents intrusion & misuse by 2-wheelers - they would have to first ascend & cross the elevated pedestrian tracks, & also, they would be far removed from moving traffic lanes;

c) Facilitates pedestrians to spill over more easily onto cycle tracks when there are few or no bicycles at more dense pedestrian points;

Other benefits include:

Easier exit of bicycles for parking by road side/s without conflicting with pedestrians;  Facilitates bicycles with easier left turns into bye-lanes without conflicting with pedestrian movements; etc.

4) The pedestrian width of 1.5m can be asphalted end to end to a smooth finish, assuming of course that there are no pipes or conduits below. If there are underlying pipes, then only removable inter-locking pavers (or equivalent) may need to be laid.

5) Where street crossings are provided (roughly each 500m, but this would need to be mapped for most convenient points), the street will need a smooth elevation with reflectors across the street on both sides + painting & signage.

Asphalted cycle path is again going to be impervious. How will it infiltrate storm water?

The pervious pavers we suggest is made of recycled polypropylene - practically of no value to anyone who wants to steal it! It gets clipped on and is so snugly fitted with sand underneath that it is not easy to wrench it out. Each slab gets clipped on to the next, so it can be installed in a day. If MTNL or BESCOM needs to access cables underneath it, it can be easily removed with special tools and replaced without damaging anything.

 However, assuming it really scales up, isnt it better to combine ? Or putting it the other way, does at a certain cycle traffic level, combining make sense ?

For this very reason a seamless asphalt or concrete with painted division will suffice. This way you can move the cycle lane around by just repainting instead of changing the entire layout if recessed or tiled etc is used. Also if the cycle traffic increases in the future it will be possible to dedicate one side purely for cycles with minimum space for peds and keep the other side of the street dedicated to pedestrians.

Also tiles is not preferred for cycle tracks as they tend to dislocate and break and you will end up laying concrete or asphalt anyway for the cycle track which then will end up like making it permenant. So I would recommend a concrete sidewalk end to end (except where the utility/drains are on the outer edge) with painted seperator (or any other changable seperator like cylindrical bollards etc). 

i had a question

#1. what separates separates the main carraigeway from this ped/cyc way?

#2. why is a 1 m wide separation needed? three feet tall grills will do the task no?

#3. also whenver there is a boundary, there is a small cushion zone which will not be used. for example, if we consider a grill, then about a feet on either side will not be used.

#4. what sort of businesses are there along the road. and how are they accessed?

sorry for asking these dumb questions rather late in the day.

about ordering. if this 3.5m is vehicle free, then we should not split hairs trying to separate cyclists from pedestrians. unless ofcourse we have dedicated cadre of people cycling to work.

about the pavement. i dontmind chappaDi kall or tile or concrete. but it is very important to pay attention to the subbase. they have been repaving the entire neighbourhood all summer here. 3 months for footpath and drains. but by god does it look solid and useable.

naveen's point about vested interests breaking the railing.

how would this work? this is clasic bangalore style no? or is it too old fashioned now. perhaps they can put some bouganvilles or something more robust.

http://www.freefoto.com/images/21/31/21_31_8---Pedestrian-Crossing_web.jpg

another question, where are the light masts? if they are at street level, then perhaps they can use it as a part of the separator rather than let it jut into the 3.5mtrs. especially since they have wide bases.

http://www.flickr.com/pho...

http://www.flickr.com/pho...

i am trying to understand the basic layout. 6.6.kms. of which  some parts have business frontage. rest is empty as of now.

median is where the piers are.either side of it, there is two lanes of main carraige way. and one lane of access road. and then there is 3.5 meters of space? in this picture the drain is between the main carraige way and the access road.

or is this an old image and the drains have been moved?

if there is an access road (which makes eminent sense) then where do vehicles that patronize shops at places like adugodi park?

i think it is important to know if the lane next to the ped/Cycway (PCW) is an access road (AR) or the main traffic lane (TL).

if it is AR then it might not be necessary to raise the PCW. but if it is the TL then it is important to raise it. Also if it is AR then the type and design of railings will have to be different.

while that is sorted out. let us assume, that we have 3.5 meters for ped/Cycway (PCW). with drain in between. and drain needs regular work. and needs openable covering.

one important thing is CW, FP and Drain all have to be at the same level.

in whatever configuration, cycle lanes cannot be next to shops. for obvious reasons. i think if there were no marking the natural flow would be - peds will settle next o shops, cyclists away from it. the design should reinforce this.

i think drains in the middle is sort of a blessing, because it will act as a natural marker to separate cyclists from pedestrians. cycle lane(CL) next to AR, fotpath (FP) next to stores.

make cycle way also tar. what this does is moves the crumple zone of tar into CW - which is a low stress zone. AR is thus strengthened.

drains: if the PCW has to be raised, then one thing that can be  done is raise the drains too. this might be a good time to redo the walls of the drain, raise it, give it some recess of about say 2in with perforated concrete covers.
so drains are white.

footpath: frontage to stores people seem to like brick pavements. go ahead do it. so this red.

black, white, red.

in places that are empty, they can just do the cheapest option. ped areas need not be bricked. if tar is cheaper to lay they can make it tar.
 

i guess what i am saying is natural order is cycles next to road and peds closer to shops. drains are cement. for cycle way and footpath use materials that reinforce the natural order. dont try to enforce an artificial order. and dont try to fine tune the usage of 3 feet on the drains.

some of the pics above are misleading. those are leisure peds and leisure cyclists. their attitude and approach is completely different to people who are doing either with a dedicated timebound purpose. which is what people in blr are likely to be doing.

TS:

The photos you posted links to are probably Hosur rd, but well past the 6.6km section that we are talking about here. This 6.6km is between Richmond road & ORR (not past it) - & is close to the city. This section was being planned for widening with acquisition of land/s from the army for a long time. I presume this has come through now.

What I meant when I said that there wasn't any commercial /retail establishments over half the distance was that there were built up areas, but these areas do not attract traffic halts due to absence of commercial /retail activity.

Allowing for 3 lanes each way, there is 3.5m each side that can be utilised for pedestrian & bicycle facilities. There are no provisions for service roads as there isn't sufficient width.

IDS:

I think you have a good suggestion - however, this is up to the BBMP. I am not sure they will think along these lines since they might assume that it is better to center the traffic lanes in the middle, as is conventional.

Suhas:

I think the suggestion by IDS is worth exploring - if the traffic lanes are slightly offset from the center line, we may get a wider bicycle lane, though only on one side.

i think drains in the middle is sort of a blessing, because it will act as a natural marker to separate cyclists from pedestrians

Consider this if the bicycle lane is not buffered by the drain area where parking is allowed.

Footpath material: If concrete is in contention, coloured concrete can make it look beautiful and may cost less than pavers. Expansion joints have to be provided regularly to avoid excessive cracking and resulting unpleasantness.

Cycle track / pedestrians: The "gap" between the edge of lane and drain seems wasted. Ending the lane at or near the drain location and allowing 2m on each side for pedestrians leaves (2*3.5m + 2*1.5m - 2*2m) = (potentially) 6m for cycle lanes. On second thoughts, it is probably better to have a cycle lane on one side (than one each side) with a "soft" line divider for 2-way traffic. Physical division / barrier between vehicle and cycle lanes and between cycle lanes and pedestrians is preferable to avoid misuse and accidents.  The vehicle-cycle division will lead to some wastage as mentioned earlier but is much safer. It is probably more economical to have the cycle lane as an extension of the road than the footpath.

 It is probably more economical to have the cycle lane as an extension of the road than the footpath.

I dont understand the economics but cycle lanes on the road is definitely an option where fast moving traffic doesnt exist. Safer option definitely is to allow cycles to mingle with pedestrians rather than with motorized vehicles. World over cycles are treated with the priviliges associated with pedestrians and not that of motorized vehicles so the first preference is to make cycle lanes on sidewalks, if not possible make them share road space with vehicles.

do not go together where pedestrians have little or no civic sense. Eg: Avenue Road and many of the inner city roads

Better to physically seperate and endure some loss of space.

At idontspam - you sir, need to read through all the posts completely and understand them before pointing a "you" at others.  Do research concrete barrier (better for vehicle-cyclist seperation) or traffic barrier - how will vehicles hit the cyclists if there is a barrier? By flying?

Pray also tell how a bollard will prevent a cyclist from veering into pedestrians or pedestrians from making use of (and blocking) cyclists' lanes? Bollards are spaced apart and are used as crash barriers for vehicles against hitting storefronts or getting into prohibited parking locations (unless we use the term differently).

Complete read-through, researched and constructive arguments are always welcome than one-upmanship or war of words with hasty postings. Nuff said (from my side).

The cycling tracks need to be physically segregated from both the main carriage way and the foot paths by using fences.

We have seen how undisciplined existing two wheeler drivers are, and how they ride over footpaths when they get a chance. There is no reason to assume that just by creating dedicated cycling tracks; we will suddenly see get a new set of very disciplined cyclists who will stick to their lanes. We even need to consider putting the tracks on either side of the roads to prevent the cyclists from crashing into each other.

Also with the sort of crowds we have in some of the commercial areas, like Adugodi and Madiwala, it will be impossible to prevent pedestrians from walking on the cycling tracks if we don’t have a physical barrier.

One other issue is the quality of the roads being built. I have see some of the road widening work being done near Madivala and the quality of the footpaths are not that great. They twist and turn to accommodate trees and manholes on the side of the road. Their width also keeps varying to accommodate existing obstructions on the road like shops, transformers, trees etc. Obviously we can’t have a cycling track which keeps twisting and turning abruptly.

With all of the above issues I even wonder whether it is possible to put cycling tracks on Hosur road in areas like Madiwala where we are really strapped for space.

 however, this is up to the BBMP. I am not sure they will think along these lines since they might assume that it is better to center the traffic lanes in the middle, as is conventional.

I agree with you if this infrastructure already exists and cycle tracks are just being retrofitted then it will be too expensive to adjust dimensions of the sidewalk for such large streches. I believe there is some road corrections being done now and it may be a good time to include the sidewalk dimension correction as well. If dimension correction is not possible we can still use the extra space on the non-cycle track side for trees which we have ignored in this discussion so far :) It depends on BBMP like you said how much they have budgeted for this model sidewalk and are they willing to accept different concepts or they just want us to provide input on the color of the tiles. 

Another reason for including the cycle track on the sidewalk on this strech is that since crowded areas are only in short streches the pedestrian crowd is restricted to those areas where we can use a physical traffic seperator.

 ...is here from feb this year. It has some links I had found then on roadside trees. Might be worth a look.

Very good visualisation and proposal. Good work. Looking forward to some enthusiastic response from BBMP. We can jointly work on the details. I am sure you will need their input. Maybe they will think of providing a couple of meters more to the sidewalks.

If parking is required on this road then the trees can be squeezed into the parking area so the current space allocated for trees can be utilized for peds

Trees end up between parked cars instead of in the middle of sidewalk.

At srkulhalli - Good presentation. Had some questions on outer cycle track:

- Will pedestrians try (or be allowed) to cross 6 lanes of traffic? Isn't the whole idea of multiple lanes to allow obstruction-free movement? If crossing is allowed, it will probably be at signals where the cycles can also stop.

- How about segregation between the (potentially higher number of) pedestrians and cyclists? Refer earlier post for examples of chaos.

- Didn't understand the 3rd advantage. If turns are needed, they can happen at signals.

The whole idea of mixing works well in developed countries where rules are followed. For example, what if there is a traffic jam on one side of the three lanes? 2-wheelers will start jumping on to the footpath as it happens elsewhere in the city. So, now a barrier is needed - why not use it to separate vehicles and cycle tracks? The kerb can seperate cycles and people (not much jamming with cycles and w/ the sharp-edge it is harder for cycles to jump the kerb). If a barrier is provided between cycles and people, it would need to be taller than the other one (more cost) to prevent prevent people from jumping/spilling over to cycle lanes (as happened w/ approx. 4' tall barriers near KBS  - people didnt want to use subway and risked life and limb to vault the barrier). As far as headlight glare, it has to be endured now when all traffic is mixed. At least w/ a barrier, the worst that can happen is a cycle crashing into another one.

Thus, in my opinion, it is better to have cycle tracks as an extension of road. This saves cost on providing an extra wide footpath/sidewalk and if not patronized enough, the barrier can simply be moved to provide parking for vehicles or an extra lane w/o additional cost (as you mentioned). Better to Indianize foreign ideas.

Suhas :

If we provide good cycling infrastructue, its going to get people going for their first scooty or pep to get into an electric cycle instead

Absolutely right - If we create the necessary infrastructure, people will use bicycles. Presently, bicycles are the most poorly served of all modes & there's no other way to turn this around other than by creating space & facilities for them.

the Petrol pump/ Big bazar turn they plan to provide an underpass for vehicles

Any idea about Langford rd signal, Bannerghatta rd signal, Adugodi signal, Koramangala signal, Sarjapur rd signal etc. en-route this stretch ?

BBMP is on record saying that all Big-10 roads will be converted to "signal-free" corridors.

Blrsri :

EC is close to 10KM from SB..I am not sure many would ride till there

I don't think putting up bicycle tracks for about 6.6km is with the idea of facilitating people to ride bicycles all the way from Vellara to EC, let alone to Silkboard Jn. There will be many (probably most) who will use them for shorter distances inbetween, & greatly appreciate the facility.

this road is NH7 and NHAI will also have a say on what changes are made

I don't think the stretch we are discussing is under NHAI. If I'm not mistaken, NH-7 begins at Silkboard towards EC /Hosur.

IDS /Suhas :

4 lanes +1 buffer/turn lane in the middle

If turns along the stretch are removed by using magic boxes or equivalent & provision of slip lanes /exits, a wide median with turn lane may not be required, but I feel it may be sensible to 4-lane the stretch than 6-laning it & cramming for space for other users & utilities.

We have not considered utilities such as electric cable ducts, water supply, etc - these may also need to be factored in.

Do you know if the road will retain some kind of geometry or will it be a snaking flowing road with chicken necks, uneven lane sizes, warts, bumps and all?

Suhas,

Great work on the pedestrian/cycle track.  Here is an example of tactile tiles that can be put for the visually impaired at pedestrian crossings.

http://www.sydneyforall.com/images/GeorgeSt_tactile_F_230x280.jpg

Did you manage to have a chat around this signal free idea?

a. Silkboard junction is going to be a mega mess - elevated road pouring its traffic.  ORR pouring its traffic (the stretch between SB Jn and Hebbal will be signal free).  How do they propose to manage the flow there.

b. BTM road will be a nightmare.

c. Hosur Road - both Laskar and Adugodi will see massive flow rates due to unhindered traffic.

d. With the current plan they will move the problem to either the cemetery signal or to Johnson Market.

e. Where have the pedestrian crossings been planned for this signal free stretch?  Any pelican signals planned?

Srivathsa

Dear All,

It would seem to me a real pity that major roads are still being remodelled with storm water "being taken somewhere else" instead of designing point of source infiltration systems. Imagine the waste of concrete, granite slabs or whatever they use to take storm water in open drains to some lake or the other!

Is not Praja's role to disabuse BBMP of such beliefs?

 will be paid by the respective utilities on some rates. 

This is the key. All organizations need agree on a rate card persqft or per running ft. In such cases BBMP will make a plan to shift put it for approval and if not cleared within one week should be deemed to be cleared and go ahead and do it themselves. BESCOM can pay them the agreed rates or the money can be drawn from a permanent interdepartmental escrow guaranteed by the govt. If BESCOM wants to do it cheaper let them step in within the week and do it at their cost. This will also force the BBMP to make provisions for these utilities properly in the plan so they are not laid Ad-Hoc by all organizations all over the place. Public cannot wait for internal wrangling to be sorted out. 

“To avoid the delay and speed up the process of road restoration, BBMP has formed guidelines and as per the PWD Schedule Rate, the concernced civic agency will take up the road restoration work after the road cutting,” said a senior BBMP official. Read more

Hope Hosur road uses the same model and gets completed

CM writes to Antony for defence land

* Hosur-Laskar Road (Johnson Market to Gajendra Nagara): 11,600 square metres