BMTC Meeting Presentation and Minutes

Thanks to Manjari, Sudheendra and all those who made efforts to attend the meeting at BMTC. Seems to be a good meeting and good to hear that attendees got to put across their concerns and suggestions to BMTC. I am hoping that we should hear from BMTC soon on this.

I think the point about "Auto/Taxi to supplement BMTC" in the presentation needs clarification. One payment for door-to-door service will be big challenge given the Bus ticket and auto/taxi fares are not same and the difference is big. Any approach on these lines would not be viable and feasible. What is being suggested is that BMTC needs to

1. Support infrastructure for easy transfers From/To auto/taxis at Bus stations, major interchanges and at bus shelters wherever it is possible.
2. Infrastructure in terms of Auto/taxi stand within walkable range, clear signs and directions helps the 2 entities.
3. Parking Priority, lower parking rates for Auto/Taxi parking at TTMCs, Bus stations and all public parking spaces catering for interchange to BMTC/Metro.

Syed

In my view the crux is this:

Lopsided bus connectivity (BMLTA Report)
Consolidation of Routes and Services
Get rid of redundancy in routes and services
Rationalize routes and services
Point to Point service philosophy?
Ex – Hebbal to K’mangala, Nelamangala to Jayanagar

do they have proper formulations for what they mean by these? Rationalize and Consolidate are very broad terms. And the devil is in the details. I am sort of catching up on developments in praja, but at one time, sri, naveen, murali et al had done some thinking on this. From what i gathered, you basically have to start with a set of models of potential solutions. then you have to have an estimate of actual demands. as sri once burnt into my mind, using current patterns is not sufficient because it is biased by exisiting patterns. and then from my personal knowledge i can tell you that figurinng out optimal solutions require some thinking and effort. and since these are real problems involving real people, implementing the even the computationally optimal solution is not enough. you will have to spend some more effort in taking the essence of it, and implementing it.

my question is, how much of an understanding did they show, beyond peddling non-sequitors like too much expectations from all quarters - like duh?!! what were they thinking? that is viable transit is what we are talking about. its not some tamashe.

I had earlier posted that there are N number of complaints by n number of people, but no concrete solution in this post http://praja.in/en/blog/naveen/2009/08/19/bus-transport-which-way-ahead#comment-16579.

First thing in hand is we need to do a data analysis on the plusses of the existing model. Any model will be having lots of plusses and lots of minusses. We need to carry forward the plusses and remove out the minusses. This cannot happen overnight.

We need a data analysis on the collection of each route (to give a rough idea, there may be more pass holders). We need a survey of very good routes of the existing setup which should never be disturbed. It will take away the ridership.  Say for example, 60A, the bus I have seen since I was a kid. It is always full and  a very successful route. These kind of routes should never be disturbed.

On the other hand we should analyze where are the minusses are. One thing is the redundancy in routes - how to over come this. One of the main thing that comes is all the buses goes to Majestic, Market and Shivajinagar and no buses connecting neighbouring localities.

Point to point connectivity - How to achieve this? What will be the TTMC Role in the future model and how the new routing can effectively use this TTMC.

Let us forget the classes of buses in these discussions. It will take our discussions and thoughts in different direction and it will be pure condemnation. Let us forget that buses do not stop in bus stop and conductor does not give back change, bmtc website aside in these directions.

May be conductors can be involved in getting the information what yajaman is talking about? BMTC can arrive at a fairly good approximation of people's pattern of travel. The conductors, of course , wouldn't like this extra burden. COnductors need to ask the passenger going to shivajinagar, majestic and KR Market, what thier final destination is and record it. Probably BMTC can do this survey by other means if they really have the will to help the public.

Well, I told you so - check here

The only hope for BMTC reforming is through Dr Ashwin Mahesh. And, today's papers have reported that he has been appointed on honorary basis as 'urban research strategist' in the office of the advisor to the CM (urban affairs - Dr A Ravindra?) with immediate effect.

And, with BMTC clearly stating that 'feeder bus operations' are unviable for them, I am sure Dr AM can work towards getting good operators into that area now.
 

@ Murali

U R right. The problem with these monopolistic officials is, there is no young blood that could grasp and respond to the needs of the present day IT laced world and fast track idealogies of finding solutions in a jiffy. 

- I would have used different language but for keeping a semblance of prajas guidelines, suffice it to say that the unless the present bunch of elderly 19th century mindset staff are changed, it will be difficult to see miracles happen.

- as you have said "I told you say.." there is a need for a big CHANGE.

-  the syndrome of  their rank and file ' labor less and earn enormous' should change within the precincts of the monolithic monopolitic transport system.   

- Look at the latest news item - source: Dec.Chronicle of todate:

title: Demolition Drive: KSRTC has decided not to consider any request of class III and IV employees (drivers/conductors and other staff?)  from one Corporation to another henceforth due to FINANCIAL CONSTRAINTS faced by road transport corporations".    WHAT AN EXCUSE?  It is these people who are the bread earners and instead of keeping them happy by transfering them near their hometowns when transfers are sought, will KSRTC earn the goodwill of these employees who may keep on applying for leave to visit their kith and kin?

Murali Sir, is it always necessary for people to go through and through so and so for getting their rightful things?  No Sir, people deserve better understanding notwithstanding the thoughts of the great guys at the helm of affairs.  

There is a chinese proverb 'if you are looking down upon somebody, you cannot see eye to eye with him' . 

This is what is happening in the case of BMTC and its service are being doled out to people ...??

what I have posted here may be treated as preaching, rhetoric, ranting by some,  but time has come to call a spade a spade and use the double barrels. 

@ Deepak

/In US, there are dedicated lanes for car-pool vehicles encouraging people to share vehicles, while in China, they restrict people to use private vehicles on day basis.

We should go by the US way and not by the China way./

Your thoughts are very nice and highly implementable but have you seen Indians being so magnanimous in their thoughts of car pool with all their stratified super egos and halos floating on their heads?

I have had bitter experience in trying to 'thumbs up' to get a lift from some carwallah babus with a red beacons from Vidhana Soudha when I was soaked to my skin in the pouring rain and there were no sheltered bus stops in those days?  Most of those flashy cars were chaperoned with single occupants but  financed from the blood and sweat of people like me and you.

   Many of them do not even know who is residing in the opp aptt or neighborhood.   Forget it yaar - may be for some time, the Chinese model may work.

- vasanth mysoremath 

Well, any new implementation can be either successful or unsuccessful, but it should be taken in the right spirit and suggestions should be given to improve it rather than simply commenting it all over.

That's why wise people have said

"It is easier said than done....".

Sorry for preaching here.

I suggested many things to BMTC through email communication and I am very happy that they respond back immediately and some action is taken towards that. I suggested the 500N route, which was implmented very quickly. It was not as successful as 500K, main reason was for buses there were not enough passengers and for passengers there were not enough buses - It is a 2 way blockage.

AM's Big10 plan became successful, but Kendra Saarige concept although aplauded by traffic planners including many on the praja, was failure. Something on paper cannot be as successful as it is conceived to be.

There is no single formula in this world for bus routing or rationalization - And there is no single expert - It is all by trial and error basis - That is why I said a Jig Jaw Puzzle. Nothing can happen overnight.

I would clearly say to all praja members - Please stop posting complaints. If you have complaints - suggest the possible workaround along with it. Please post exact suggestions for improvements with  convincing facts to other members. Some posts are just to prove other post is wrong . Otherwise we will become another criticizing newspaper.

Syed - only one thing. Not writing this pro or anti AM, but wanted to say just some thing which is important.

If we pressureize people by expecting response for every thing which is asked from them on online forums like these, we would be 1) setting unrealistic expectation 2) ensuring that the person will not make attempts to engage more via these online methods.

These days, when most people want to express more than listen, since its so easy to "talk" via phone, sms, email blogs etc, engagement is more about listening. Getting back on each and everything said to him/her (at personal level) is a bit tight, esp in today's world.

Many who read these forums don't sign up and expose themselves because they are afraid of exactly this - getting crowded around with questions in whack-a-mole fashion the moment they surface.

Our efforts to engage with AM were successful. A decent number of us met him, and he would be game for another meeting if approached.

However, I would say let us not get into creating a BMTC vs AM "battle" by taking sides. Lets do our bit to make them work together. Lets talk to whoever is in a position to change things, and can listen. And from my experience (have met with AM, in large as well as smal groups), and have seen BMTC engage with groups here, all are in a mood to isten.

Anyway.

Vasanth,

You are bang on when you said,

"...I would clearly say to all praja members - Please stop posting complaints. If you have complaints - suggest the possible workaround along with it...."

So far those who are working with BMTC have taken the first step. For journey to continue Praja needs to take the 2nd step. In 1st step, the BMTC team have done wonderful job of giving a 36000 feet view to the BMTC. The next step would be to come down from 36000 feet and convert each complaint and suggestion into a problem-solution statement. Each statement would be a big project itself. There is definitely need for decomposing the problem areas into workable and achievable tasks. Hoping to spend some time on that in coming days.

@VKM

I didn't mean that we should give dedicated lanes or something like that. What I meant  by "going by the US ways" is that giving some encouragement/incentives/attraction to use the public transport services. For example, in case of BMTC, they should have clean and well designated bus-stops, where all the route information is published well maintained, buses should approach from the leftmost side and one by one towards the stop, people don't have to run towards boarding the bus instead bus just stand in front of shelter, and a gate opens and people get in etc etc. These kind of proper arrangement will obviously attract any kind of commuters be it poor or rich.

@Naveen:

I very much understand and agree to what you pointed out. But at the same time when we have been discussing about BMTC services, helping them make it better, we shouldn't give any excuse on that. BMTC is government entity, they can very well have a colloboration with Traffic police to make sure that every designated bus-stop, autos/taxis doesn't make any standing etc. You must be seeing BTRAC or no-parking boards generally near the bus-stops, now traffic police has to enforce it properly. When we are talking about BMTC, we should have a goal that let BMTC create example for other government entities to do better instead of pointing here and there.
----

I have a few suggestions also as how can we implement it, I am thinking of putting it up properly in a presentation format and share it to the praja members and see if we can take it to the BMTC.


As in the BMTC meeting, BMTC people told that they have some restrictions, staff limitations etc. We need to suggest them as to evaluate how are they managing their staff. I am very much sure that they must be having lesser staff at the ground level (drivers, conductors etc) and relatively bigger staff at the BABU level doing nothing the whole day. They should bring a few reforms in that way and hire a few more ground level staff and thereby making services better and also creating employment.

Hi

I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find BMTC time tables. There is an excellent site - BTIS.in -- which gives routes and other information of BMTC buses but does not seem to give the frequency of the buses. I am planning on taking route 401K to Kengeri from Yeshwantpur - but as of now am hesitant as I'm not sure how often the bus goes.

Is there a web page which has more information that just simply route numbers or names  ? 

Ramesh

PT is primarily used in Bangalore by those who cannot ride any vehicle, like aged , ladies and those who do not have any vehicles

Vasanth - I am not sure this is true. I would guess that most men could ride a bicycle. The difficulty would be for the aged, most women, handicapped people & small children. Auto or taxi stands are the best option.

Away from this, which PT system in the world caters to last mile issues the way we demand motorized solutions ?

See new thread started - "Bicycle's Role in Last Mile Connectivity - The China Example" here.

I agreen Naveen. All men can ride bicycles. They should opt out for that. Nowadays we also have electrical bicycles which also has got motor backup (not the electric scotters) which also occupies the same amount of space as normal bicycles.

But, what I am seeing in Bangalore is that whoever who can ride bicycles are riding motorbikes...and those who cannot afford or cannot ride any vehicle are only using PT systems and Autos.

I was particular about this category of people including my Mother, my aunts, who does not know any driving and are fully dependent on BMTC. (I had a sercastic comment on this here http://praja.in/en/blog/murali772/2007/12/12/better-bussing-green-bangalore#comment-1371).

But this is what I see, most women of middle, lower middle class and poor people are fully dependent on BMTC - no other go. If you happen to goto Sahakar Nagar, there is shared auto from Bus Stand on the Kodigehalli Gate on the new Airport Road. I used to visit there regularly 1 year back. For 5 rupees they were dropping to any part of Sahakar Nagar. I saw lots of women, especially 40+ , utilizing this service.

5 rupees is high, but it was inevitable for many. Meter will come to only minimum if we go any part of Sahakarnagar from the bus stand, but auto guys were putting 4 people and making 20. Some sort of an organized shared auto for these section of people I was thinking of.

Men like me should always use bicycle for last mile connectivity since it comes for free, good for health (no need for inhouse expensive cycle exercising running in AC). Parking charges will be negligible at 1 rupee probably. Cities like coppenhagen have become world no 1 greener city by using bicycles.

 Unfortunately I dont think Sahakarnagar should be last mile from Bellary road. There should bus services connecting interior areas of all these nagars so people can find a bus stop within 500mtrs of any point. after that it can be cycle or walk (only half a km max). Wasnt this stated by somebody in BMTC somtime last year?

The professed policy of BMTC is to have buses upto 500Mtrs of any residential area.

When asked about this in the recent meeting they said it was not found viable.

When I had suggested operation of mini-buses on narrow streets to access interior areas that are difficult to access with larger buses, they had stated that they would rather operate the larger buses than mini-buses as maintenance costs were higher & it was difficult to maintain mini-buses since they were not reliable - thus, operation of mini-buses was unviable.

I found this hard to accept as many mini-buses were in operation satisfactorily (such as Swaraj Mazda & Tata Starbus) - being operated by several private companies for their staff.

Narrow roads are a reality in many areas, no doubt, but BMTC has to find a way out of this - the only answer is to provide services with mini-buses where such narrow roads allow this.

This aside, there are many residential areas that are several kilometers across with row upon row of houses. Examples would be Jayanagar, JP Nagar, BSK, BTM or HSR - these residential areas (with their many blocks /stages /phases /sectors, etc.) are so large that to get to within 500m of each house would require several circuitous routes.

In such cases, services to nodal points (such as 4th block, 9th block, etc. as in Jayanagar) with stops en-route would be the only likely solution as operating many circuitous routes would reduce the frequency on individual circuits & will also make it unviable.

There will thus be a last mile component for most - in such cases, private transport (such as autos, bicycles, etc) would have to be resorted to, & this is best left to individuals as destinations, timings & preferences are likely to vary considerably.

I beleive that bicycles are a good option. China is an example - they have promoted this very successfully since any form of public transport will never be able to satisfy every individual's needs. It can only be for the collective good for the community as a whole.

each residential area of some logicaly defined size needs one such bus staying within the area but connecting to trunk route stops or metro lines.

I also think mini-buses are the answer for connecting areas that are away from main thoroughfares. Such services if organized, will certainly help commuters a great deal & improve ridership levels of BMTC.

I have been suggesting this to BMTC too. One such suggestion was for the area close to my home - details are on this thread.

I noticed that a new, larger bus station is now coming up at the central location (Vignannagar). The idea may be to do away with the scattered terminues with infrequent services (viz. Jagdishnagar, Malleshpalya, Basavanagar & LBS nagar) & re-route buses originating from Vignannagar to pass through these points more frequently. Some road-widening is also underway - I guess this is to take in larger buses & in higher numbers.

A Mini-bus is also in operation in the area (one of the 400 series) & is improving connectivity, though frequency is poor.