Anybody who has observed the Varun Gandhi saga over the last fortnight will understand immediately what the BJP is up to. At first, it was embarrassed by the hatred embodied in Varun’s speech. Then, it realised it could have it both ways. It could say that the CDs of the speech had been doctored — without bothering to find any forensic evidence at all to support this outlandish claim. And it could promote Varun as a fatter than life, communal pinup.
All this augurs badly for the future. Is this kind of cynical manouvering the level to which the BJP has now been reduced? Is the BJP without the statesmanship of A B Vajpayee no better than the Youth Congress of Sanjay Gandhi? And what kind of government will the BJP provide if this is how it functions? The BJP thinks it’s being smart. No top leader is saying very much in Varun’s favour (except for Rajnath Singh who speaks first and thinks afterwards). The defence is being left to chhota mota spokesmen of the caliber of Balbir Punj who are figures of no consequence and who can easily be disowned if things go very wrong.
The hate speeches leave us wondering about the BJP’s new-found moderation.
Think about this: If L K Advani can’t even rein in Varun Gandhi’s goondas, then what kind of Iron Man is he? Either Advani doesn’t want to stop the goondas or Manmohan Singh was absolutely right when he described him as a weak man whose sole achievement was the destruction of the Babri Masjid.
You decide.
For the full text of the essay by Vir Sanghvi, click on: http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=A+deadly+combo+of+legacy+and+hatred&artid=5few295nEnU=
I would generally have liked to have a BJP government at the centre. But, this Varun Gandhi episode, apart from other recent happenings in Karnataka, give me the jitters.
Muralidhar Rao
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Comments
Will secularists rein in Abu Azmi?
Will secularists rein in Abu Azmi?
Will they allow publication in India of the Danish cartoons - and defend the right to free speech?
Why support M F Hussain but ban Danish cartoons?
As long as Islamic extremism and it's supportive dhimmitude exist, so will 'communalism' exist.
To requote Alexander Hamilton, Ambition will counter Ambition.
Leopard can't change its spots
Murali-sir,
I am not sure why you think a leopard can change its spots. When one does not believe in India's constitution (but in a Hindu nation) then words like secular become "pseudo secular"; ancient monuments become "dhanchas" and can be broken down and we cannot get past partition. Muslims and to some extent Christians have to prove their patriotism constantly whereas all Hindus are patriotic by default (even the ones who evade taxes, have Swiss Bank accounts, etc etc).
ABV is a rarity in the BJP, He was a statesman who led foreign missions even while in the opposition.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Hindu nation not state
India was, is and will be a Hindu Nation. But it is not a Hindu state. Secularism means "pantha nirapekshata", meaning "indifference to religion" - this means all relegions - Hinduism, Islam (especially), Christianity, Marxism and Maoism.
Second, Hinduism is *different* from Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Secularism is a fancy word from Europe not particularly applicable in India.
It is Hinduism's pluralistic nature that allows Bahai's, Jews, Parsis, Tibetan Buddhists to prosper in India.
Abuse of that freedom has landed Islam and Christianity in trouble in India.
It is little wonder that Christianity and Islam are the most violent creeds and eternally at war with each other and the rest of the world.
Streetfight vs strategy
There was a press conference 2 days ago where LK Advani raised this issue in a specially called press conference and mentioned very clearly he did not want to talk about Philibit. I have still not seen a single news channel hold a substantial discussion in prime time around how this is possible and what are the steps that India can take to do this. Instead everybody is piling on the rhetoric and escalating it till BJP is forcibly dragged back to the streetfight.
We are supposed to be a super power and none of the parties have as yet articulated a coherent foreign policy strategy that is non-cliched or non-reactive. Where do they stand on the economy? environment? Congress wants us to vote on the basis of the poster boy they have created and BJP is falling into the trap.
Meahwhile Yeddi was trying to put some perspective to the issues. He comes across a forthright non-BS person. Just hope he and his party can keep lumpen elements in check.
BJP needs to strategically shift its ideology which was founded when they were smaller and needed attention grabbing stunts. If it wants to lead a multicultural nation, it needs to espouse indifference to religion, while not abandoning a rightist tilt. There is no way people can be allowed to split the country on religious lines.
Indifference to semitic religions
deleted.
[no hate mongering please, make that bold and big PLEASE - SB on behalf of moderators]
Selective indifference is not acceptable
Such intolerance is shortsighted. It is based on a frame of reference that is not objective and conducive to integrity of the country. It does not allow us to hold a candle to anybody and prevents us from claiming to have a mature head on our shoulders. It puts you on a keel that cannot solve problems but makes you become a part of it.
India is a different stage
India is a different stage. Christianity, Islam and other semitic faiths and other related prophetic faiths like Marxism and Maoism are different than Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism.
There is a lot of space for all religions in India, only because of the pluralistic nature of Hinduism.
Good fences make good neighbours then. When Christianity and Islam engage in fence hitting (as they have been since they arrived in India), that is when the problem starts.
Islam and Christianity have bloody borders.
BJP and the Republicans
Think about this: If L K Advani can’t even rein in Varun Gandhi’s goondas, then what kind of Iron Man is he? Either Advani doesn’t want to stop the goondas or Manmohan Singh was absolutely right when he described him as a weak man whose sole achievement was the destruction of the Babri Masjid.
I can relate this to how the republicans are falling into the same trap in the US. Rush Limbaugh an unelected radio show host who is the equivelant of a party worker has become the poster boy the democrats are propping up because he is a easier target. His idiotic hate filled speeches gather more news coverage than the policy making ELECTED republicans who are actually touring the country trying to get a single column on the sides to explain their view points on the bailouts and the budget.
I am dissapointed LK Advani is not coming across as a powerful leader with thoughts that can take the country forward. He has become a willing participant in the streetfight. If only the congress held its partners together they may ramp home unless Advani starts focussing on issues pronto.
Attack/demolish places of worships/hate speeches/safronise
Many BJP followers have, in a state of hurry to popularise themselves or with over confidece, exposed the hidden agenda of the party that is dreaming of capturing power at the Center during LS 2009 elections. Varun's communal tinged hate speech and assault on secularism is a classic example of how the young/old BJP warriors are ready to weild the sword and extend the Hindutva cult by any and all means. I am yet to find who , a real Hindu is, and what are his manifestations concerning humanity. Geeta-ki-kasam, un logon ka haat .....
India has lived and will continue to live as the greatest living democracy in the World. Can we wish away our muslim/christian and other community brothers and sisters who are contributing their might with honesty, integrity and patriotic fervor? Where will they go if communal hatredness is spread in an unabashed manner by a few power hungry politicians? Do they have to live in perpetual fear and with a syndrome of being attacked by cult following butchers? Such people should know that muslim population in India is much more than the entire populace of Pakistan and they have lived for centuries like the Hindus. Why this sudden love for Hinduism? It is becoming another -ism and is almost akin to internal terrorism in India. Will BJP convert all of them into Hindus? Please be clear about your stand on how you are going to keep the other community people safe and secure? It is possible for BJP to capture if only it comes clean and declares its secularism bereft of such hate syndroms being spread by its rank and file.
BJP is being pulled by strings attached to Bhajrang Dal, RSS, Moral Police and a host of other cults with Hindutva as their plank. Its double standards are evident - wants to ban pub culture - bans arrack - issues licenses for wine manufacturing, opens Wine Parlours; Mysore Sugar Company, Mandya to Manufacture Mywhisky, Myrum, Mygin and a host of other hard liquors. By banning arrack, BJP socially elevated the BPL family drinker to a higher strata of whisky, rum, gin guzzler and making his family poorer by evening.
Hundreds of farmers are committing suicides due to loan burdens. They are the 'true sons of the soil like the CM' and are the 'VOTE GIVING LIVING GODS' but are starving for basic needs for their livelihood like two pots of clean water and a few kgs. of rice, WHEREAS, Government is splurging hundreds of crores of rupees for renovation of the abodes of 'imaginery and unseen gods'. Whereas CM/ministers are not finding time to clear files relating to peoples' welfare schemes, they are finding time to heli-hop from one temple to another for archanas, yagas, yagnaas, homaas to appease and get blessings for keeping them in power for ever and ever. Foreign tours are being arranged for handpicked and select farmers who are BJP workers. Bicycles and other benefits are being doled out only to children whose parents are BJP sympathisers. This is the kind of Agenda that we will have to face if BJP comes to power, touch wood!
We need to be extra cautious during 2009 LS elections; we must exercise our franchise with care; elect a stable government at the center that swears by real secularism and to showcase to the international community that India is a safe place that lives and breaths unity in diversity. We must create majority voters rule without giving room for a hung verdict that results in horse trading, unholy alliances, live-in arrangements; 20:20 power sharing syndrome; ditching; party hopping etc.
It is time to establish a secular system that cares for all the people and works for all the people irrespective of caste, creed or color. We need a system that reduces the gap between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. We must demand necessary amendments to election rules and its processes with a provision to 'Recall the Unfit'. Make voting compulsory by giving some incentive like 5 per cent rebate in electricity/water bills to motivate them to vote.
WHOM TO VOTE? - A good question. We know that we cannot wish away politicians; they have become necessary evils in our society; it is we the people who allowed these demons to surface from the abyss of the political black hole called 'minority voters rule' and because we never barred entry of criminals into politics and the loop holes in the constitution helped them to continue their dragnets even from Jails.
All of them are chips of the old block and the big neta in some other party today, was a worker in Congress party. Many have criminal records and are netas. Still, we have to vote. So, whom to vote?
VOTE TO THE LEAST CRIMINAL
Also see article in http://www.kaaranji.com dated 15-3-09
Vasanthkumar Mysoremath
mcadambi, What is the basis?
mcadambi avare,
"It is little wonder that Christianity and Islam are the most violent creeds and eternally at war with each other and the rest of the world. "
What is the basis for this assertion of yours?
Only Economic targets
elect a stable government at the center that swears by real secularism
I disagree, secular or not is not an issue for India. There is no way any party in power can destroy the fundamental right of an Indian citizen to pratice the religion of his choice. The more we vote on the basis of secularism, non secularism, hindutva etc the more the parties will use that as a platform to further their ends.
The vote has to be purely on the partys ECONOMIC and HUMAN DEEVELOPMENT targets it can deliver. Make them put a HDI, Per capita and GDP target numbers QoQ, YoY. These should be the only internal targets the parties should take and be voted on. They have to prove how they have fared on these parameters in the places under their governance and the plan they lay out to achieve the same.
wars were a past time once, perhaps
mcadambi avare'
If you go into the past, even the Mahabharata is all about wars. They had nothing better to do those times, I guess - no cricket, no football, no movies. So, let's just talk of the present.
Muralidhar Rao
Wars and hinduism
Rape, loot cities, plunder - these were part and parcel of semitic religions since their birth. A simple glance of their history is enough.
Mahabharata war - strict rules of warfare, no fighting after sunset, no civilians, only warriors, and no back stabbing.
Vasanth
Vasanth,
The problem is not with muslims or christians in India per se, nor with Islam or Christianity in India per se.
But when Islamic Jihad and Christian Imperialism attack india, then Hindus are capable of defending and thwarthing that.
Hindutva will vanish when the five threats to India - Mullahs, Missionaries, Marxists, Macaulayputras and Mafiosi vanish.
Do you think non-BJP parties are secular?
Congress didn't allow hanging of Mohamed Afzal, because he is a muslim and it is secular.
But, if you talk on behalf of Hindus, you are communal!!
Everybody is talking about Varun Gandhi, as if they have heard his speech.
I think, he was referring to terrorists and I don't see anything wrong in that.
So, those who are apposing his speech, are you suggesting that, we should garland and congratulate the terrorists and give a red-carpet welcome!!?
Why, educated people, are not demanding the government to hang Afzal and Kasab?
what a pity ...
... that these issues get so much energy and interest. and 24/7 water, power etc, the basics, languish at the bottom of popularity charts.
Cheers to media, they know what sells, and can tell election porn from people's issues. Varun Gandhi is what we want, and more such people is what they will give us. Sanjay Dutt is what we want, more Dutts is what they will unearth.
Cheers to us, the 'educated' folks, who are more "visible" on TV, papers and these forums. Happy with subsidized-deisel driven cars, cheap labor to get stuff done while we watch TV and type things here, 24 hour UPS'es and 20 kiloliter water storage space at our homes, this is what we take deep interest and put our energy in.
Mobilization and polarization are two different things. Our parties, and our media knows one of these, not the other.
And then, I will be branded a socialist for saying all this, like I am one.
Mcadambi, still you have not answered
mcadambi avare,
You did not answer my question. You made a comment about Christianity and Islam being the Violent Creed. It is incumbent upon you to provide the basis for that assertion, specially when somebody requests it.
Regarding Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), I have not commented anything in that respect to say he did not wage wars? I don't know how you got that impression. We can have a different discussion on that aspect alone. I would recommend you to read some of his biographies to see how many wars he fought, how were the wars fought, their outcome and what are the moral lessons from each war he fought.
Standing up to the injustice, truth and fellow beings is part of the Islamic faith. Depending upon the time, period and circumstances, the nature of resistance is to be determined. Most abused word in our times is JIHAD, used both by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. It is also the most misunderstood concept of physical resistance.
The fight among Islam and other religion is not because Islamic teachings ask you to fight at drop of the hat. It is the followers of Islam that uses religion to rightly or wrongly to further their cause for more land, more money, more power. It is equally true with other religion as well. The wars that are fought and given religious turn is not for religious supremacy but rather materialistic supremacy. In that quest religion is easiest, most lethal avenue to consolidate numbers, raise more funds and unquestioned authority. This is the case with most religious groups that are politically active all over the world.
Syed
Syed,
The islam that you know through Madressahs is different from what the rest of the non-Islamic world knows about Islam.
Think about this - in Philippines it is Muslims Vs Non-Muslims, ditto in Thailand, ditto in Indonesia, Ditto in China, ditto in India, ditto in Sri Lanka, ditto in the West and in the rest of the world Muslims Vs Muslims.
Need i say more?
Mr. Cadambi
Dear All,
India is facing a highly confusing political scenario on the eve of LS 2009. Many of us have dealt with certain aspects of governance that cannot be considered as holistic thinking. World is watching. What will India be with all its diversities in all fields of its governance that have reached a peak. What will happen and where will we be if India ends up as a confused nation without a rudder?
It has become imperative that we, as Indians, think in broader terms and perspectives and establish a stable government that is backed by a majority voters rule of responsible and patriotic citizens who should not shy to exercise their constitutional obligation.
Majority of the political parties are using 'safe methods' with different partners and are trying to play with the emotional and sentimental values of gullible people. But the clever voter knows the confounding confusions being created by the wily politicians and have become awakened citizens. There is a growing awareness to exercise their voting right to teach these two-time temporary politicians who would not mind selling their all for becoming victims of various kinds of 'operations' being unleashed. They convenient forget that they got elected on the values and morals of one party only to ditch for lure of the lucre. It is time for people to identify such candidates and kick them in the butt and burry them in the ghettos of democratic India. This is the first lesson to be taught.
Let us not get into emotional or sentimental arguments while dealing with such a subject of national importance. Think holistically and let us not try any kind of 'one-upmanship' in our discussions. What is most important is, our country should establish a vibrant secular democracy that can convince the world that India is the greatest living democracy in the world and has the ability to become a super power; does not get bogged down by internal qualms and diversities but has the ability to command respect in its foreign policies and international communities.
Let us confine our gods to the four walls of our homes and let us not splurge public money for conducting open air homas, yagnaas, havans, poojas inside government buildings, poosifying seers, heli-hopping piligrimage centers for seeking blessings for remaining in power. What We need are two pots of water, some uninterrupted supply of energy, a roof on our head, decent living conditions, free education and health care for the poor. Reduction of the gap between the 'haves' and have nots' and eliminating stratified care systems for the rich and the poor.
Stability, Secularism, Safety, Security and soverignty are the need of the hour.
Vasanthkumar Mysoremath
Enough Said - Agree with SB
I feel this discussion can end now since there will never be any conclusions.
In the past, history tells us that each sect or creed (aka religion) fought the other as they had felt threatened at that time - & history should be confined to books as reference information. We seem to want to continue this & still see "threats" where none exist, similar to the enmity between Arabs & Jews - a conflict that is still on, after 2000 years with no signs of ending.
Our country is much more capable of accepting all types of citizens as equal to one another than many other states, & very unlike Nazi Germany & the holocaust - as recent as 70 years ago.
Do we want to mar this belief ?
Vasanth
I'm all up for Secularism.
But not the kind of secularism that is anti-hindu and pro-non-hindu. Period.
Naveen
Our country accepts everyone. But many people have taken away large parts of our country. What do we do about it? We even refuse to learn from it.
Do not vote on secular/non-secular
Ignore ALL claims of secular or Non-secular from any party. Please vote on economic and human development indices ONLY. Ask for clear committments on Environmental, HDI, GDP, Infrastructure expenditure, Capital expenditure, Fiscal deficit, Growth rate, Inflation targets. Ask for proof of policies implemented in the states governed by the parties and policies adopted.
Please remember regardless of any posturing before the election, any religious activism by the state is governed by the constitution of India. So all the rhetoric or decisions on basis of religion does not matter. It is purely oneupmanship and emotional blackmail. People in the villages do not understand this. Let us not make the same mistake. If you have a chance please explain to the villagers to ask for water, electricity and road issues for their area.
There is going to be severe shortage of natural resource like water there is no national strategy for the same. There is going to be shortage of electricity as we dont have the powerplants. We dont have enough trains to ferry people. Let us ask for well stated policies, committments on all these. The parties cant be figuring these after coming to power they should only get on with implementing them.
teachers, preachers and haters
I am sure we all love the prospect of Mr Cadambi teaching Islam to Mr Syed, or idontspam and silkboard preaching election isses to the misguided Bangaloreans.
As Naveen said, this is pointless. Those who have filled their mind with all the right biases, and have acquired all the knowledge that there is, have this hard job of keeping some of it from overflowing. And poor souls who are yet to acquire all the gyan that is out there in this world will keep looking for preachers, teachers and haters.
But not on this forum, at least not right now. Full stop to this thread please.
Full stop. Yes, but there is another topic on the forum....
It is a good decision to put a full stop to this topic. But there is another topic on almost same lines - Why I might want to vote for BJP this time... started by Mr.Murali, almost simultaneously
That line may open up another pandoras box for comments by the same community that is vociferously following this subject.
Better close that topic also before it escalates.
Regards
Vasanthkumar Mysoremath