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Tagore Circle Underpass – Moving Bottlenecks in Basavanagudi

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KR Park 1BBMP’s prescription to ease congestion in Basavanagudi area is to install an underpass at Tagore circle – a strange decision, since a gigantic flyover has been built on a parallel road, & that same road (Vani Vilas Rd) can be streamlined for uninterrupted flows to attract more traffic, & limit traffic past Gandhi Bazaar & Tagore Circle.

As can be seen from the diagram, what this will do is invite even more traffic through  MN Krishnarao Rd (diagonal road), BP Wadia Rd as also on Gandhi Bazaar Rd . Soon, there will be a need for another underpass or flyover at Indian Institute of World Culture, followed up further by another at the DVG Rd–Gandhi Bazaar Rd intersection, & so on so forth ! 

If Gandhi Bazaar Rd were made one-way (flow in the direction from Ashram towards Tagore Circle), as also install some magic boxes along Vani Vilas Rd where possible, traffic volume would reduce drastically along Gandhi Bazaar Rd & Tagore Circle.

It may be possible to manage traffic flows better with one ways to benefit from less traffic past Gandhi Bazaar & Tagore Circle, though distances would increase. This may be temporary & one-way/s can be reviewed better once the Metro comes up. Hopefully, if road traffic reduces by some extent, the need for an underpass at Tagore circle would diminish.

I think we should approach Traffic Police /BBMP & question them the rationale behind this.

Arun – many thanks your inputs. I have the following comments :

  1. Magic boxes at Kanakapura Rd & NR /Shankar Mutt Rd Jns --- As per BMRC’s alignment plans, support piers are to come up along the median on Vani Vilas road. A magic box at Kanakapura Rd Jn may not be possible, unless no pier is planned in way of this junction. A magic box should be possible at NR /Shankar Mutt Rd Jn, I think.
  2. Put a median on Vani Vilas Road with no crossing over right from West Gt. Vehicles on Kanakapura Rd can go upto Nat’l Colg & take a right U turn to and enter Kanakapura Rd --- what you probably meant was enter Vani Vilas Rd. This should be feasible, I think.
  3. Median from Ramakrishna Ashram Circle (RKC) up to the flyover. Vehicles wanting to cross over will NR will take right U turn under the flyover near Ntl Colg --- this is not clear. It is a T-Jn, so vehicles coming from Ashram can easily turn left without conflict. There can be conflicts for vehicles going from Nat’l college & intending to turn into Shankar Mutt /NR Rd, but a magic box there should solve the problem & ensure smooth flows both ways.
  4. Magic box under Ntl Colg flyover to ensure free movement towards KR Mkt --- may be possible.
  5. Another important underpass (Magic box) could be at West Gate where it curves from Krumbigal Road to Vani Vilas Road . --- may be possible as Metro curves over where the Petrol Bunk is.

Can you advise if the road from National College to Sajjan Rao Circle is still one-way (in the direction from Nat’l Colg to SR Circle). Also, if the road from Sajjan Rao Circle to Kanakapura Rd is one-way in that direction ?

ಪ್ರತಿಕ್ರಿಯೆಗಳು

Nitinjhanwar's picture

Review

ಮೇಲೆ
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As I understand from the previous blog on this subject, the Gandhi Bazar road and Mn Krishna Road are commercial (Markets). Will it be feasible to have them restricted for two wheelers only ? This way everybody will be happy. 1.0 Only one magic box to come up. 2.0 Minimum amount of hindrances to be removed from Vani Vilas Road. 3.0 The underpass can be utiled for at grade parking at tagore circle-there is already a green area in the form of K R Park. 4.0 Less congestion in the shopping area for more space for shoppers. 5.0 The diagonal temple road can also be restricted for two wheelers. nJ

-nJ-

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Naveen's picture

Incorrect Assumptions

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Nitin,

I think yr assumption/s are incorrect :

1) Gandhi Bazaar Rd is fully commercial whereas all other roads have a few offices /retail outlets, but are generally not commercial centers, yet.

2) Going by the principles of equality, I believe that no street can be converted to 2-wheeler only or cars-only avenues as it encourages one section whilst disadvantaging all others. So, contrary to what you feel, everybody will not be happy. Pedestrian-only streets are the only accepted clean & green option, since all user types can be cared for.

3) By creating more parking areas in place of free /open areas, again, we are encouraging more vehicle ownership & discouraging pedestrian welfare & this does not go with international trends for protection of the environment.

4) Having said this, movement of vehicles (all types) must not be unduly hampered, too & some provisions need to be made, provided that all user types are cared for & such steps do not conflict or favor only certain groups.

The idea to fit an underpass at Tagore circle will favor much more vehcile movements past Gandhi Bazaar, effecting shoppers & pedestrians greatly as traffic volumes are sure to increase, hence the objection/s.

Nitinjhanwar's picture

Maybe

ಮೇಲೆ
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OK your are the best judge but they are not my assumptions. But I thought 1.0 The main objective was to discourage traffic generation because of the magic box. 2.0 How will the pedestrian traffic increase if there is no underpass and less traffic? 3.0 As i said the strolling pedestrian has the Green area in the form of park. 4.0Do the shopowners come walking to their premises or do the residents park their vehicles somewhere else and come walking? 5.0 What is the provision of parking for the future metro? 6.0 The space under the flyover is being utilised for small sholeepers or parking or pedestrians. 7.0 Swizerland and Netherland and for that matter goa as less population density so pedestrian streets are wonderfull for the people thier.They have on street restaurants and what not. http://images.google.co.i... gives some images some parking.

-nJ-

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Naveen's picture

Underpass will Spoil existing Market

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A Multi-level parking lot may be a good option for shoppers in Gandhi bazaar, however, abundant street side parking is also available, at present. Enabling traffic movement on the commercialized /market street by installing underpasses & converting them to traffic thoroughfares because road width is available is what is wrong with this. Further, green spaces are being taken away to build this underpass. Other available alternative/s seem to have been ignored.

What about the safety of shoppers /pedestrians - traffic will surely increase & they may not be able to even get across the street when vehicle volumes increase.

Since street side parking is available, access is not a problem. There is also a bus terminus near the Ashram.

As discussed on another thread, BMRC officials stated that parking for Metro will be made available at stations in the periphery of the city.

silkboard's picture

Enforcing parking norms on shops of the area

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One angle not covered thus far is parking enforcement along the busy roads. At least on Main Gandhi Bazaar area, couple of building basements are functioning as shops and not parking areas. A little bit of enforcement could get us more road width by moving some off street parking to the basements.

Gandhi Bazaar Road itself as one way, with a parallel street as the opposite one way could be an option (already covered by Naveen).

One key data point we need is this. What is the eventual destination of through traffic in this area? From what I have observed, I will say that:

  • Traffic flowing south mainly wants to hit Kanakpura Road, or RV Road via South End Circle
  • Traffic flowing North/East wants to hit RK Mission
  • Flowing North West wants to hit Lal Bagh Gate

Flow has to be designed to keep through traffic on one or two trunk roads, and investments should be to make the corridor move at steady pace. Steady != fast. Steady = two or three synchronized signals across Basavangudi so that the three main streams of traffic mesh/cross in coordinated way.

Will upload my maps in a bit. But can someone confirm the assumption I made about key traffic flows (three directions) above?

thanks - SB aka Pranav

Naveen's picture

SB - Right On

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SB,

I think what you say is quite correct  - Traffic there mostly arrive from Banshankari, Kathriguppe, Thyagarajanagar, JP Nagar & Jayanagar west.

They come along KR rd, Kanakapura rd or Patalamma Temple rd & either take KR rd-Gandhi Bazaar-Bull Temple rd route for proceeding towards Chikpet /Binnypet /City Mkt /Rly Stn; or MN Krishnarao rd (diagonal rd ) to proceed towards Majestic /KG rd or MG rd side (via JC Rd), & vice-versa.

KR rd & Kanakapura rd are almost parallel & close to one another all the way from near Banashankari bus terminus to Vani Vilas rd. These roads could be made one-ways from southern side of KR Park to Vanivilas rd, & traffic flows can be made uniterrupted with synchronized signal lts or with magic box underpasses, or a combination of both.

For crossing east to west & vice-versa, there are many options - Vani Vilas rd, Dewan Madhavrao rd & BP Wadia rd. All these could be left as two-way roads. Traffic flows on Vani vilas rd can also be made continuous similarly - the flyover at Nat'l college will help doing this.

Traffic through Gandhi bazaar can be kept in check by either making it one-way; Or by restricting exit from the road to only left turns at both ends (on east, exit only to KR rd heading North; on west, exit only to Bull Temple road, heading South).

This way, Gandhi bazaar will remain a 'Bazaar' & no underpasses need be built across Tagore circle + traffic flows can also be better streamlined.

Unholy nexus

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Sometime back, "The Hindu" had written about a unholy nexus between Consultants, Contractors and Officials of the BDA and BBMP.

Instead of simple projects like road signs, signals, parking infrastructure and better foot paths, the contractors pay a bribe to the BDA and BBMP officials through an active nexus with Consultants. These officials in turn "clear" such blunder projects like the Malleswaram Underpass and now the Tagore Circle Underpass.

Thankfully, an official of East Coast Construction Company of India (ECCI) which is currently executing the Malleswaram underpass was caught by Shri R K Dutta of the Karnataka Lokayukta. This is the first time that a bribe giver was caught and charged under Section 21 of the Prevention of Corruption Act for aiding and abetting corruption.

Such an action above is but a minor hit of the hammer. More effort is needed by concerned citizens to stop such wholesale looting and destruction of our city.

RTI activists, Greens and all concerned citizens should unite and oppose such meaningless projects.

Citizens of Mysore stop useless road expansion

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If Mysoreans can do it - why can't we?

http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/10/stories/2008111052500300.htm

Mr Chandrashekarachar has some innovative solutions

ಮೇಲೆ
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http://www.hindu.com/2008...

Worth a look!
s_yajaman's picture

I can't see why a couple of traffic lights won't make it work

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This is an outcome of the "signal free" disease that has afflicted our planners.  A couple of signals at this junction can sort things out as well as enable people to cross the road safely. 

The real issue is traffic coming from Ashram on Gandhi Bazaar Road trying to go to BP Wadia Road and KR Road (towards NR Colony).  Have a signal here on KR Road that halts traffic on KR Road for 30 seconds so that people can take a right turn.  At the same time a pedestrian light can come on to help people cross KR Road (a task that is fraught with danger).

Of course there is no money to be made in installing 3 or 4 traffic lights but a lot to be made in an underpass.

I don't support a one-way on Gandhi Bazaar.  This will destroy the character of the whole area.  One-ways are another one of those diseases that put cars above people.

MCadambi and I agree on something finally :)

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Arun's picture

Traffic Signals, magic boxes

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Naveen,
 
Majority of the vehicles crossing Tagore Circle either move towards Bull Temple Rd, RK Ashram or beyond Netkallappa Circle.
 
My observations on your suggestions –
 
  • Narrow service lane on VV Road for vehicles coming from Market turning left at the flyover
  • Conflict with vehicles entering Jain College Road from KRR and VVR
  • On VVR, at the Kanakapura Rd Jn (after Vasavi Trust)
    • vehicles descending from the flyover (from RK side),
    • those from KRR that turn left at the flyover,
    • those from Sajjan Rao Circle, and
    • more importantly West Gate will meet
Vasavi Jn will be the congestion point where even a magic box will not solve the problem due to the above pattern of traffic flow
 
This may again discourage people to take VVR and use the flyover and they would still continue to use Krishna Rao Rd and BPW, eventually Tagore Circle.
 
…more when we meet…a combination of signals, magic boxes should work...
 
 
asj's picture

What a fantasy

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"Signal free disease" - perfectly put Srivathsa.

With due respect to Shri Chandrashekarachar, I admire his intent but his model should perhaps sit in a civil engineering college museum as an example of how not to solve congestion.

Basics are not being considered and I agree with anyone who believes that a solution other than going under or over is possible.

ASJ

Vasanth's picture

Let us wait just for 60 seconds in signal

ಮೇಲೆ
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Instead of all thesei jargons,  60 seconds wait will not be too much. Infact, this signal  was manual with cop giving signals and not with the traffic lights. Recently I have not observed if it was converted into signal lights under B-TR.AC.

During manual signal, the wait used to be around 30-60 seconds max. Cop as soon as seeing vehicles piling up was releasing the signal.  It was the dream of the then MLA Mr.Chandrashekar  which has been continued.

 

Naveen's picture

Tagore Circle - A Possible Way Out

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Normal 0

It appears that traffic flow patterns in Basavanagudi area have been left without much regulation on the many thoroughfares, with several major road junctions. Some of the junctions do not have traffic signals, but are manned by traffic cops during peak hours. At these times, since there are waiting times at junctions, traffic generally tends to use roads that do not involve such waiting, or have lesser wait times.

the flyover on Vanivilas rd at National college junction has not helped much as traffic avoids it due to longer waiting time at two other points along Vanivilas rd :  at Kanakapura rd junction & at Shankar Mutt rd junction.

Another reason why traffic avoids National college junction is because the width of side lanes below the flyover are narrow at all four sides on Vanivilas road. The design of the flyover was faulty, no doubt, & it would have been better not to have built one there.

Thus, many road users prefer to use the Gandhi bazaar route, which involves minimum delays. Better utilization of the National college flyover might assist in reducing excessive traffic through Tagore circle & on Gandhi Bazaar rd.

If wait times at the two points on Vanivilas rd are reduced, & some restrictions imposed to prevent use of Gandhi Bazaar rd, it might divert more traffic on to Vanivilas road & over the flyover. To do this :

1)       Traffic from Shankar Mutt rd must only be permitted to turn left onto Vanivilas rd, & the right turn from Vanivilas rd to Shankar Mutt rd must also not be permitted with appropriate traffic symbols.

This is possible since traffic coming southwards from City market & Mysore road side on Shankar Mutt rd can easily exit on to Bull Temple road via BHS or S Park roads (also through few other cross streets), & do not need to come all the way to Vanivilas road to take a right turn to join Bull Temple road. Vehicles bound for Gandhi Bazaar must of course, come along Bull Temple road & turn into Gandhi bazaar rd at Ashram junction – this is not much of a deviation.

Likewise, traffic proceeding along Vanivilas rd does not necessarily need the right turn to Shankar Mutt rd. They can proceed to Ashram junction & turn right without much increase in distance. They also have the option to turn right at National College (below flyover), but the lane is narrow & cannot take too many vehicles at one time.

2)      At Vanivilas rd – Kanakapura rd junction, right turn from KR park side to Lalbagh west gate can be blocked off since the diagonal rd can be used instead (understand this has just been done – only now !), but the right turn from Sajjan Rao circle side to Vanivilas road needs to be left open.

At present, there are no signals installed, & only a cop regulates this junction during peak hours. A signal must be installed – the main flow direction is along Vanivilas road. The signal phases would thus be :

aaa)   Right turns for traffic from K'pura rd (from SR circle side) on to Vanivilas rd.

bbb)   Right turns from Vanivilas rd to K'pura rd (Nat'l College side towards KR Park).

ccc)   Right turns from Vanivilas rd to K'pura rd (Lalbagh gate side toward SR circle).

ddd)   Pedestrians Crossing.

Thus, there would be four phases in addition to the longer one that permits both ways movement along Vanivilas rd. The right turn phase periods can be minimized since majority of the traffic would be straight along Vanivilas rd (if all of these controls are exercised).

3)     Movement of traffic on Gandhi bazaar rd can be kept in check by permitting only left turns & blocking off right turns at both ends. This will ensure that only traffic bound for the market & nearby areas uses the road.

Exiting out from Gandhi Bazaar onto either Vanivilas rd or to rejoin KR rd can be done through the network of inter-connecting cross streets, including DVG rd. Thus, shoppers will not be inconvenienced much with this minor restriction.

4)       A signal would be required at Tagore circle since there are none installed at present. The wait time at this signal would be lessened as traffic from Gandhi bazaar rd would be allowed to only exit left on to KR rd (North bound) & is thus, out of the equation. The phases would thus be :

aa)       Traffic from BP Wadia Rd.

bb)       KR rd North bound.

cc)       KR rd South bound.

dd)       Pedestrians Crossing.

There will be no need to regulate free movement of traffic entering Gandhi Bazaar from either KR rd or BP Wadia rd since they can only exit Gandhi Bazaar with a left turn onto Bull Temple rd (South bound). Thus, traffic will automatically avoid Gandhi bazaar anyway.

With these measures, however, traffic volumes will increase at Ashram junction, as also along KR rd. In any case, Metro stations are planned passing through the area & will also connect Banashankari & further South – so traffic volumes will remain restrained. If additional flyovers or underpasses are built, it may actually prove much worse & increase congestion further at many points.

Arun, Others – many thanks for all the inputs. Please confirm all okay now ??

 

Nitinjhanwar's picture

Free flow wothout grade sepration is a historical moto.

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Naveen, I am not from Bangalore and therefore I cannot comment -without the engineering inputs- about your "free flow" without grade separation concept. Just for the sake of arguing why are we living in skyscrapers when a Mud house is more air conditioned? In a city which has so many first to its name : Metro, IT hubs,Ring Road,BRTS will the government officials think about the money for an underpass. They will collectively donate their contribution to the local politician. nJ

-nJ-

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asj's picture

Obsessed with free flow

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URBAN FREE FLOW - This has become an obsession of every urban dweller in India (it seems).

Its unrealistic and its futile to attempt this.

Rather accept the hard fact of living in dense urban cities - delay, congestion, more roads means more cars...........all old paradigms, insane (as we are repeating the mistakes of the West).

Hope someone puts a stop to this some day.

ASJ
s_yajaman's picture

Looking for a flame with a lamp in his hand

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There is a Zen Buddhist story about a man who was looking for a flame with a lamp in his hand. 

"Age has not deterred this retired government employee, who travels around Bangalore on his bicycle in search of solution to traffic woes. "

Mr.Chandrashekarachar reminds me of that man. :)

Srivathsa

 

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Naveen's picture

Not a "free flow concept"

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Nitinjhanwar & ASJ,

It's not a "free flow concept" as you term it - you seem unaware & since you have not attempted to understand what this is all about, you are now trying to generalize & justify the chaos there, claiming that it's all part of a city, it's unrealistic, futile, it is similar to living in high rises whilst mudhouses can serve, etc..
 
In brief, the Traffic police /Corpn have neglected traffic regulation even after putting up a flyover in the area, resulting in increased vehicles  through a commercial /market street. Now, since traffic has increased through the market, the officials are trying to fit another underpass at the mouth of the market, ignoring the fact that there is already a flyover that can be utilized to divert traffic. The underpass will encourage even more traffic through the bazaar. Thus, their attempt/s appear to be misaligned with actual needs & may worsen the problem.
 
I have been consulting other/s to see how an underpass can be avoided & how the flyover can be used without altering or adding any more of these grade separators to try & prevent another monster from being built there. We may even approach the local MLA to explain alternative/s.
 
I would appreciate if you could study the map & assist with the effort/s instead of succumbing to the temptation to make needless comments.
asj's picture

Comments relate to thread

ಮೇಲೆ
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Navin,
My comments relate to the thread in general (in fact many threads of this kind all over Praja) where the focus was on yet another underpass.

It had nothing to do with your plan.

In fact I congratulate you for your efforts as the most recent plan proposed does not seem to have any mention of underpasses/overpasses et al. We obviously agree on this one when you say -  'If additional flyovers or underpasses are built, it may actually prove much worse & increase congestion further at many points.'

I hope this effort is made use of by local authorities and similar thoguht given to other such projects.

Best wishes,

ASJ
ssheragu's picture

Tagore circle underpass

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ssheragu so much is being said about this being not a resident of that area I cannot comment can Praja immediately take initiative and arrange a visit to the area on a specified day so that all of us can get the correct picture of road alignments and nature of the problem this way we can meet with each other on the spot and give valuable suggestions thanks Srinath Heragu
Nitinjhanwar's picture

please read my needless comments.

ಮೇಲೆ
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Naveen,

1.0 I had said limit the Gandhi Bazar for two wheelers. You rejected it saying that this is not as per the law of equality.We are not into Biology of Darwin Theories. we are into engineering.

2.0 You yourself have mentioned that the flyover is not conducive for more traffic and is badly planned - not badly designed.

3.0 My inputs were to minimize the so called bad planning.

4.0 Stake holder consultantations in the form of MLA opinion is fine but just ensure where HIS commercial and household goods come from. From Gandhi Bazar?

Lastly Naveen lets not personal on grade seperation. We haven't even heard our voices and as I said you are the best judge but do not judge others intellectuality over your citism.

nJ

-nJ-

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Srivatsava's picture

Why Underpasses are the only solution??

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I havent been tracking this tread for the past 2-3 days, so I would like to comment on a few things....

 

First of all ASJ, when you dont get to specifics of the situation, you can safely make statements like "solution other than going under or over is possible". Such abstract statements may sound good and even appealing. Fact is, when you start to think of a solution for this (specific) case, you will see that unless we have a few underpasses in the area, no change will be useful or significant. Its another matter that you aren’t aware of the area to propose any solution.

ASJ, you have taken the example of the 55 flyovers of mumbai  (in the other thread related to this) to reason that building flyovers will  do no good. I was in Mumbai during 97-98 and I know very well that the project faced great protests and scepticism since then. But, I believe, if they havent helped, its because the authorities came up only 55 for mumbai, where as mumbai actually needed a 110 or 220 of those!!

You are perfect in your assessment that a flyover/underpass will only move the congestion from one junction to another. But then, you are assuming that the flyover/underpass is the only one built. If the next junction also gets a underpass, the congestion at that junction is also addressed. So, what we need is not one underpass/flyover as the solution to all traffic woes in an area, but we need to identify a long stretch of road which should be made “signal-free”. This is similar to the concept of synchronised traffic signals. Its absurd to sync signals at two-three junctions. The traffic police have now identified a stretch of over 15 kms on Bellary road (Yelahanka to Golf Course) on which all signals will have to be synchronised so that vehicles do not have to stop at each signal.

 

Yajamanare, “signal-free” is not a disease, but just a side-effect of jam-free travel. This sort of a solution has not been adopted in other cities in the world, since most of them much wider roads. In India, especially Bengaluru, the roads are narrow, and hence if we are made to stop at a signal for 150-200 seconds, vehicles pile up beyond the next junction. Hence, underpasses are needed to provide the “signal-free” movement of vehicles. I am not saying that with narrow magic boxes, vehicles can simply zoom across; but then we wont have jams, saving both the travel time and precious fuel for the users (and ‘invaluable’ forex for the government!!). Putting together, “jam-free” travel is possible only with “signal-free” (i.e. without stopping at signals) solution.

Also, I agree that one-ways put vehicles above pedestrians. But that should be no reason to oppose introduction of one-ways. More so now, since we have the convenience of magic box subways that can be built in a day at much lower cost than conventional ones. In fact, I would recommend making BP Wadia road a one-way from KR road to Kanakapura road. That will free up Tagore circle. And a lot of traffic from West gate to hanumantanagar will start using National College flyover!!

 

Arun, I would love to see the 4-6 magic boxes on Vanivilas road you proposed ( one each at lal bagh west gate, seshmahal circle, VV road – Shankar Mutt Road junction and a few more), though the greatest opposition to it will come from within Praja!! I am really surprised that it is you who have come up with this solution, after starting the discussion against the Tagore circle underpass.

 

Naveen, good assessment of the traffic in the area. But, I feel point 4 (tagore circle) is incomplete/incorrect. Just a traffic light will not help, since it cannot be better than manual signal. Along with the traffic light, we need to separate the traffic on KR road from National college from the vehicles from GB main road. Then the traffic signal pattern would be

aa)       Traffic from Gandhi Bazzar Main Road.

bb)       KR rd North bound.

cc)       KR rd South bound.

dd)       Pedestrians Crossing.

 

Ofcourse, I am expecting BP Wadia Road to be made one-way.

 

  -Srivatsava V

http://srivatsava-vajapeyam.blogspot.com/

-Srivatsava V

Vasanth's picture

Buses passing through Gandhibazaar

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Naveen, there are lots of buses coming from NR Colony, Thyagarajnagar, Jayanagar - BTM and travelling towards Malleshwaram, Mahalaxmi layout side (60A, a popular route is one example). These buses turn right on the RK Ashrama circle exiting from Gandhibazaar main road. These buses have good number of users and their route will get affected unless we allow BMTC to turn right at RK Ashram.

Vasanth's picture

Leave it as it is

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I would simply say leave as it is now. BP Wadia Road and KR Road Junction at the Tagore circle waiting is not much (hardly 30 seconds-60 seconds wait). Vehicles do not pile up like it does in the other parts of the city.

Very few vehicles pass from KR Road towards Kanakapura Road on the BP Wadia Road. Traffic is towards the tagore circle in the opposite direction. If this is made one way, road is highly underutilized increasing the volumes elsewhere (Vanivilas Road and Gunasheela Nursing home road) which in turn will add to extra fuel burning.

Underpass or fyover has got lots of opposition, so, I would say simply leave it as it is.

Gandhibazaar main road has become messy because of the parking issues (mainly cars stopping and people getting off the cars to goto restaurants which are plenty here). Something needs to be done to restrict vehicles on the Gandhibazaar main road during peak hours (6-9) PM except buses.

Let the Metro and Mono's alignment get finalized to start the flyovers or underpasses in this part. Metro and Mono's alignment should not get disrupted at any cost to have insensible flyovers and underpasses. 

 

 

Naveen's picture

BMTC Buses & Bicycles - Must Enjoy Priority

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Vasanth,

You are very right - so also, buses coming from Chamrajpet side & bound for Jaynagar, BTM, etc. that will have to traverse through Gandhi Bazaar, & take a right at Tagore circle.

These "No Right Turn" restrictions must be enforced only for private vehicles, including private company buses & maxicabs, & not for public transport, bicycles, etc.

Public transport must be allowed entry through Gandhi Bazaar from any direction to any direction to speed them up.

Another important market area - Malleswaram Sampige rd from circle to veg market must also similarly be converted only for public (BMTC) buses & bicycles. Private vehicles must be banned.

If such preferential practices are followed at all important pedestrian spots, the dependence on private vehicles would reduce, & buses will speed up. Demands for more & more roads, underpasses, overpasses, magic boxes, etc. will diminish.

If proper tracks are laid, bicycles can be given similar priority & allowed to go through one-ways too, to speed them up & encourage them.

This is the only way to stifle the tendency to use private motorized polluting vehicles, even for small errands, whilst public transport & other more civilized traffic gets neglected.
 

Naveen's picture

Leaving It As It Is- Not a Good Option

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Vasanth,

Please go through the new thread "Basavanagudu Traffic Regulation", where I have posted pictures, etc.

If it is left as it is, it will soon turn to a choke point, & demands will begin again for an underpass.

Since parking is already a problem as it is (I noticed that the whole road is usually full of parked vehicles on the sides), private vehicles using Gandhi bazaar as a thoroughfare needs to be controlled immediately, else it will turn out to be another chikpet or avenue rd.

Hence, to maintain status quo can be harmful to the interests of what is now a beautiful area.

s_yajaman's picture

Buses from Chamrajpet

ಮೇಲೆ
460 users have liked.

Naveen,

Buses from Chamrajpet towards Jayanagar don't go through Gandhi Bazaar.  Instead they go on Gandhi Bazaar North Road and take a right turn at NCB on to KR Road.  This has been true for the last 25 years at least. 

Srivatsava - I will need some time to post a reply to your e-mail.  My short response is - infrastructural solutions  cannot solve behavioural problems.  A lot of our jams are because of bad behaviour.  If you give Bangalore drivers 10 lanes , there will still be jams simply because they don't know how to drive (part of driving is getting along with other drivers and not simply pressing the accelarator, clutch, horn and brake and steering the car).

Srivathsa

 

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

asj's picture

Don't know but I don't know that I don't know

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Srivatsava V

If I wanted to I could have been very detailed in offering a solution. I did not do it for want of time, others were working on it and more significantly, I have over time collated several different possible solutions (spread across many posts) and if those are revisited you will find that I have covered possible solutions being discussed (and I mean those that do not need considering going over or under).

As for your solution - to go over or under at junction after junction for X kilometers - it took me back to 1995 when I first learnt something that recently was re-phrased and made popular by Donald Rumsfeld.

Your solution is a walking talking example of - I don't know but I don't know that I don't know

Now that phrase could apply to me too - except my views were once very similar to your views and over time I have readily agreed to change my views based on evidence presented.

Bangalore is no different from Pune and while I am struggling to point you in any one direction, I suggest you read my appraisal of the Comprehensive Mobility Plan for Pune posted on Praja.

ASJ
idontspam's picture

Jam free travel

ಮೇಲೆ
447 users have liked.
Jam free travel can happen with improved driving discipline and having better public transport. Not by laying magic boxes on city streets. Such ill concieved plans are short term measures not fitting any strategic vision. You want to drive like the highway then you need to be on the highway. You cant implement highway designs on city streets unless they are arterial connectors for highways.

ASJ's best practices havent come out of thin air or fanciful imagination. Most are tried and tested in other countries which have mature civic practices for better quality of life.
Srivatsava's picture

What works for others need not work for us..

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Idiotspam... Problems in your home are best solved by you. You solve it based on the constraints that you have to live under. Similarly, we cant barrow the best practices from other cities and replicate their success here. Road widening may not be a solution for taffic problems in cities that already have wide roads. But on the narrow lanes of bangalore it could help. My basic point is that, dont replicate the successful ideas from other cities/countries and argue that these are only way forward for a city like Bangalore. Both ASJ and you (and a lot of other Praja members) are mature enough to come with your solutions, based on conditions of our city. Srivatsava

-Srivatsava V

idontspam's picture

Lack of understanding

ಮೇಲೆ
438 users have liked.
Srivatsa, you havent probably understood what is being proposed. I should admit it can sometimes be overwhelming if you havent experienced better transport infrastructure or have lived in the US too much and I sympathise. The ability to think beyond your car is important. Based on the conditions of our city we have provided suggestions which will work. There is no proof the widened roads and magic boxes have solved traffic problems by any great magnitude. We are sure there are more sustainable solutions which will work equally well. You dont have to take our word for it. Speak to a few traffic experts before dismissing the suggestions. I rest my case.
asj's picture

Replicating ideas from other countries

ಮೇಲೆ
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Srivatsava
Thanks for the complements. But I am left wondering what helped you decide on me being mature, my candid confession that I once thought your solutions were the solutions or my review of the Comprehensive Mobility Plan (CMP) for Pune. I suspect its not the latter at all as i do not sense you have gone through it. 

Unlike our cricketers who can't retire in dignity, I retired my old cognitions on transport when presented with evidence contrary to what I thought was a solution. 

My review of the CMP should give you some indication on some of the myths percolating in our cities. 
  1. Our roads are not any narrower than those in UK
  2. Our roads are not at all as clogged as those in the US, UK or other Western Nations. In fact even if Delhi and Mumbai were to double their vehicle population, the densities won't surpass those of some cities in the West. 
  3. The reivew ends with links to number of articles as well as snapshots of failed urban freeways - examples of elevated roads that have been pulled down. 
I am not copying or replicating Western models. If anything, road widening, under-passes, flyovers and the whole gamut of things planned right now - all these were tried out throughout the 60s-90s in the West. These are efforts envisioned by people with not the transport planners hat on but that of a civil engineer. 

Its only now, admittedly (some engineers have been very open about their shortsight) that civil engineers are turning to traffic demand management as a science. 

ASJ
Nitinjhanwar's picture

At Grade or Grade Seperated.

ಮೇಲೆ
455 users have liked.
Dr Asj, I will not aggravate the argument, but can you please enlighten as : 1.0 Is there a relation between vehicle density and level of service of a Road? 2.0 Is the vehicle density correlated with percentage of slow and LMVs type of vehicles? 3.0 Is the pedestrian population in relation to vehicle density same in the developed countries? 4.0 Is not the freeflow a function of education and compliance? On the lighter side lets say that if we have to achieve the status of a Developed Nation than we have to go for grade seperation and than come back to at grade. nJ

-nJ-

919462900144

www.nitinjhanwar.biz

asj's picture

To grade separate or not to grade separate

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NJ,
You have now brought up all the various factors that need looking at to arrive at a perfect solution. But it is for the authorities to conduct detailed traffic counts, do traffic flow modelling etc. Sadly they just want to build without justifying reasons for building. In Pune on SB Road, they are hell bent on an elevated road on top of the 6 lanes - I have never seen a traffic jam on this road (unless waiting at traffic lights = jam).

The point of this thread is not about road surfacing, its quality, servicing,  etc - these are a matter for another thread.

This thread was / is about overcoming so called bottle necks. Bottle necks need not be physical - when demand exceeds capacity - we get  a bottle neck. Increase in capacity almost always is matched by increase in demand (on other hand there is evidence from handful of places to show that reducing capacity reduces demand). 
 
Instead of comparing East Vs. West the question is are sound principles and best practices in place. The comparison is useless as I can actually show you many examples of UK roads where traffic moves at 30mph and yet, there is no grade separation and also provision at junctions for masses of people to corss the roads safely.

In fact I can show you how dozens of cars are lined up at traffic lights in UK. Ten cars will occupy 100 feet road length if not more, in contrast we are actually very very lucky in cities other than the 4 metro's where bulk of personal mode of transport is 2 wheelers - one can try and imagine how little space 10 two wheelers will need in contrast (3 in one lane means all they need is space equal to 3 cars). But these 10 scooterist will be causing mayhem along with the rickshaws trying to claw past each other like rats in a sewage pipe - so freedom from chaos at our junctions as you say is about education and compliance. I have argued this for long and hence the entire series of 17 videos posted elsewhere. 

Speed too is a very tricky one - although every road with street lights in London is a 30mph road, I know how every time I drive at peak times I am stuck in a slow crawl (London peak time avergae is 10mph and before congestion charging there were roads where traffic moved at 3mph). But only slow speeds can reliably accommodate more vehicles on a given road (I have discussed this else where). Thus the more people drive the less the speed - that to be expected, its a given.

Ultimately, we need sound TDM and realism. Almost all cities including those in West were made for people and not cars, thus we have to accept the limitations that go with it. I hit a junction contorlled by traffic lights in London every 100 or 200 meters - why? Because people live everywhere and roads connect with each other . Thus we have junctions after junctions as an end result. And junctions are for regulating traffic and safety.  A drive around a city is stop-start and stop-start and just that. Realistically speaking no amount of grade separation will help over come this fact. I have driven many grade separated dual carriage ways in UK and driven at 10mph instead of 50 or 60 and there is nothing one can do about it. Drivers in UK accept this, in fact even when we they are stuck in mile long line of cars, they show courtesy to each other (rather than grabbing every inch available) and I hear honking about 6 times in one year.

Even 500 flyovers will not solve Mumbai's problems when it hits the estimated 30 million. If 10% drive, its still 3 million vehicles (double of today). I was in Parel, Mumbai last year - the flyover had no traffic, below it the traffic was bumper to bumper, it took me 30 minutes to move a kilometer, ventually I got off and walked - why is this the case? A flyover frees up one direction but potentially causes havoc with those left to deal with narrow under-passes. Our elevated roads also tend to be point to point - no slip roads for entry and exit - again, all one gets is a 5 minute ride before hitting the next junction.  

One has to accept this and learn to live with it. Its the downside of dense urbanisation. Those who can't live with delays and traffic snarls have two choices - live in a village or campaign for reducing vehicles on our roads along side better public transport. 

Short term quick fixes are a waste of resources. 

Its pointless me trying to go on and for those who can't see it any other way, revisit the same flyovers in a few years time and make up your minds.

ASJ
 

Naveen's picture

Cities also require a good road network

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441 users have liked.

It is true that one must accept frequent junctions & stop /start driving in cities. However, our cities are all growing & with increased motorization now, a good road network is also required for movement of people, goods & services, & above all for emergencies (ambulances, fire services, etc). Flyovers will thus, also be required as also wider roads.

What has been very slow in Indian cities is the development of mass public transport & an effective mechanism to monitor & control traffic growth. Mumbai is the only city that has a reliable train system that is used by many, however crude or dirty it might be.

Another problem is that our authorities create infrastructure in a haphazard manner without any rationale, just to "solve the problem" & "get it over & done with". This sort of response actually worsens things as it is seldom aligned with what actually needs to be done.

In Bangalore, the proliferation of various bodies without any overseeing authority has truly ruined the city. Typically, the traffic police does not want to do much, & so, they "suggest" that a "flyover is needed" as "monitoring traffic has become very cumbersome". This may be true, but nobody tries to address the root of the problem - that of analysing why traffic is growing & take steps to try to reduce traffic growth. Everybody gives in & accepts that "traffic really is too heavy" & "we need the flyover". What this does of course is invite even more traffic, that worsens the performance of public transport.

It is hoped that after the metro is operational, at least, we can hope for some change as enforecement  can be acceptably stricter since the authorities would have provided a reliable transport system.

Srivatsava's picture

Road widening & Junctions causing jams.

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First of all, my apologies for anyone who has been hurt by my comments. I didn’t intend to make any personal remarks, though you may have such an impression.

But, I still stick to my views and will still try to make you see my point. For a very long time, it was the Hosur road users who were complaining the most about the traffic jams and condition of the roads. In fact they were the first to effectively use the media to voice their concerns and get their work done. Today, after widening of the Hosur road (infact, its not even widening, but just integrating the service road), most of the hosur road users opine that the elevated road will not be useful, and surface road is just enough for now.

Srivathsa makes the important point about driving behaviour of Bangaloreans. At no point of time did I dispute that. Yes, we need to enforce the ‘reFirst of all, my apologies for anyone who has been hurt by my comments. I didn’t intend to make any personal remarks, though you may have such an impression. But, I still stick to my views and will still try to make you see my point. For a very long time, it was the Hosur road users who were complaining the most about the traffic jams and condition of the roads. In fact they were the first to effectively use the media to voice their concerns and get their work done. Today, after widening of the Hosur road (infact, its not even widening, but just integrating the service road), most of the hosur road users opine that the elevated road will not be useful, and surface road is just enough for now. Srivathsa makes the important point about driving behaviour of Bangaloreans. At no point of time did I dispute that. Yes, we need to enforce the ‘regulations’ better. I do agree that each of these (widening of roads, especially at junctions; enforcement of rules; signposts) are as important as the other. The widening of hosur road is a medium term solution for the problems of this road. Going further, if we can enforce traffic discipline on Hosur Road, the same road widening will be a long term solution. Yes, Srivathsa, just widening is not enough. But then, just discipline will also not be enough. Also, I have made a point that traffic signals are creating jams. I guess you haven’t picked the point, since you haven’t strongly contradicted the observation. If you don’t agree, take the case of the Koramangala 80ft Road-Hosur Road intersection (just off Forum Mall, near Adugodi Police station). On any weekday evening, you will have to stop at the signal thrice to pass from 80ft road and take a right turn toward Adugodi Police station. That will be a whopping 8-10 mins to travel a distance of 200m. But after passing through this signal, you will have little trouble later. The piling up of vehicles on this signal will cause a pile up of vehicles on the roads that bring traffic into the next junction (close to the mosque and HDFC bank). So, you may end up taking about 12 mins to travel a distance of 300m at these two junctions. To drive home the point that junctions and the width of the roads at the junctions are the main culprits for creating jams, try answering these questions. 1. On how many roads do we have an extra lane at the left (for about 100m) or a service lane to make a left turn? 2. On how many roads, after making a left turn, do we have another lane, so that the traffic on the road is not affected? Quite possible I haven’t worded the questions well. So attach a badly looking picture. If 2+2 lane roads were to be 3+3 (or 3+4) lanes for about 100 meters from the junctions, the length of the pile-up of waiting vehicles could be halfed. Also, these wide junctions ( and not necessarily wide roads) can allow more vehicles to pass through them. So, within the same 40 or 50 seconds that the signal is green, we can allow 50% more vehicles to cross the junction and hence substantiatively reduce the amount of pile-up at the intersections. PS: idiotspam,I have never been to the US. So, I assume your comment about ‘experiencing better transport infrastructure’ or ‘living in the US too much’ is being cynical of USA and not cynical of me!! So, I ignore your words. p>

-Srivatsava V

Naveen's picture

Road Improvements Result in Even More Traffic

ಮೇಲೆ
445 users have liked.

Srivatsava,

Yr point noted & is quite obvious. One has to also bear in mind that creating more roads, flyovers & improving junctions for "fast', "uniterrupted" & "smooth" driving also results in even more traffic.

Many flyovers have been built, many roads widened, many underpasses fitted. What's the result now ? The demand is for even more such widening, more junction improvements, more flyovers, without any end - the invitation to traffic is filling them even more & delays have lengthened even further.

Traffic has a funny way of increasing if roads are made available. Similarly, pedestrians would increase if there are good sidewalks & likewise, bicycles would increase if cycle tracks are provided, & good public transport will result in more users - this is universal.

We have to decide how much road we need, how much pedestrian traffic, how much bicyclists, & how much public transport.

Unfortunately, our planners have almost discarded bicyclists, neglected pedestrians, discouraged use of public transport (with their road widening schemes that encourage more vehicles) & are yet to realize that road improvements will result in calls for even more road improvements, without end.

Street Parking is being offered free, fuel is being subsidized, road use is free (if not being undercharged) - all these sops have resulted in demands for more & more road improvements, whilst bicyclists, pedestrians & public buses are being seen as less & less important on the streets.

Is this not being unfair to those who would like to use more non-polluting, healthy & more civilized methods for commuting, such as walking, bicycling or using public transport ?

silkboard's picture

Update - project canned?

ಮೇಲೆ
457 users have liked.

I 'heard' that Tagore Circle underpass project is about to be canned.

s_yajaman's picture

Good news then

ಮೇಲೆ
432 users have liked.

Hope your sources are reliable.  This is good news then. 

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Vasanth's picture

Another 73 trees to go down for Tagore Circle Underpass

ಮೇಲೆ
438 users have liked.

 In a stunning news today morning, BBMP announced another 73 trees to go for a foolish underpass.

http://bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com/2010/05/73-more-trees-to-go.html

BMRCL itself is trying to save Nanda Road by just trimming the branches, whereas foolish BBMP axing the 300 year old trees for an unwanted foolish project. Petitions and agitations have all calmed down.

I am feeling bad about our new BBMP comissioner Bharatlal Meena. Once he took over the office, road widening and tree cutting saga started.

We had an efficient Manivannan being transferred from Mysore. These are very bad moves of BJP government.

 

 

 

srinidhi's picture

motive is money..

ಮೇಲೆ
443 users have liked.

Road works of all kinds is becoming the cash cow for the govt now..

Corporators have just come to power and its these projects which will give them an opportunity to recover all the money they spent on the elections..the political setup in Blr has turned out to be the most corrupt and ultra-nasty!

 Wasnt there a PIL planned against this project? What happened to that?

 

 

Vasanth's picture

Save Trees Campaign... Say no to unnecessary widening

ಮೇಲೆ
452 users have liked.

Can we have a campaign, such as Sunday run covered by media to save the trees of Bangalore from BBMP and other unnecessary projects.

 

murali772's picture

Indeed, your Lordship!

ಮೇಲೆ
448 users have liked.

"You (BMRCL) can go over the flyover (Basavanagudi). In fact, records tell us that it is the most unused flyover in the city built at the instance of a local MLA. It is a colossal waste. Who will compensate for the sufferings of the people for the past four years?" quote by by Justice Rammohan Reddy in the TOI - click here for the full report

 

Muralidhar Rao
srinidhi's picture

bring down that useless structure

ಮೇಲೆ
477 users have liked.

I am for the plan to bring down the national college flyover..perhaps it will be the first example to the ones at the helm that not everything can be taken for granted! 

Memories abt the tall trees which made way for this unused structure is very vivid..it would be great if it can be brought back!

However,  about the current situation, the lady whos put up the case is more concerend about the compensation shes getting rather then the luv for anything else..guess BMRCL will negotiate with her..afterall reach 4 pace of construction is recorded the fastest..!

murali772's picture

harass citizens with impunity

ಮೇಲೆ
490 users have liked.

They get to show the world how to survive and smile in spite of a flawed democracy that finds many ways to harass them. The Tagore circle underpass is a wonderful example of how to harass citizens with impunity.

For the full text of the column by Sri Vinod Vyasulu in the Deccan Herald, click here

Muralidhar Rao
srinidhi's picture

can JnNurm be contacted for the mess?

ಮೇಲೆ
431 users have liked.

Tagore circle is in the press again..for wrong reasons..its public money wasted for a project which public does not want!

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/154215/an-underpass-none-wants.html

JnNurm is kind of turning blind eye for its projects being taken up around the city..most of it utter junk!

The TTMC's have already proved a colossal waste of resources and all of them built illegally without following any building norms!

JnNurm has turned out to be a bane for public..can we contact them to get them reviewing what they have started?

srinidhi's picture

Ready but already junk!

ಮೇಲೆ
432 users have liked.

The tagore circle underpass is ready and opened for traffic but it has not met the requirements it was meant to achive..

Many of the KR road busses esp. from NR colony/t.nagar have been turning into Gandhibazaar main road from KR road at Tagore circle before the underpass..they had been directed onto the residential lane(parallel to KR road) during constrution..

Today I saw the busses still using that residential lane..the reason is that the slip road on the KR road  is not wide enough to take bus traffic!

If this is what they did after so many delays and cost over runs then its the worst project implemented..it has officially joined the biggest blunder list along with the National college flyover!

idontspam's picture

biggest blunder

ಮೇಲೆ
441 users have liked.

..& cauvery junction

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