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HAL airport must stay: High Court

HAL Airport must remain says High Court:
Sourced from IBN-LIVE (click here for the story).
gowda's picture

Sad

This is so sad. If we are flip-flopping like this then future private investors will think hard (real hard) before investing here.

 

 

Photoyogi's picture

Retain HAL, is only a Direction?

http://www.moneycontrol.c... "No it is not an order, its only a direction given to the Union of India and to BIAL. So when they have given a direction to re-negotiate, definitely the union government has to think twice before closing the existing airport." says GR Mohan, Advocate" Umm now its up to the Advocates and the play of words, For BIAL there is a lot at stake. With the Karnataka Govt having 26% is it not beneficial to the state also? -- Praveen Sundaram AkA PhotoYogi

-- PhotoYogi

bialterminal's picture

not addressing the root cause

This solution is something like advising a heart patient to limit daily activities versus agressively tackling the clogged arteries. There was no active initiative to build good rail and road infrastructure right from 2003/2004 when the airport development began. Given that the new BIAL is the future direction steps should be taken to come up with a solution for high speed rail and dedicated busways to the new airport. What is the use of keeping 2 airports open when we have crumbling infrastructure that prevents us from getting to either of them efficiently? I think we should take a page or two from China & Dubai for their world class infrastructure growing by leaps and bounds. A page should also be taken from the construction of HongKong international airport in the 90s where they built the airport, road&rail connectivity from the city center and dedicated remote checkin at the city center rail station at the same time.

And, what happens here in Bangalore? We get an international airport with facilities that should have been there more than 5 years back and rest of the facilities get shifted to other phases leaving bangalore in a catch up mode from day 1.

From the BIAL website there doesn't appear to be an integrated public transport terminal with direct easy access (without passengers crossing other traffic on the ground) to the passenger terminal(s) which is a basic  functional feature expected of an airport designed in the 90s and even prior to that.

Naveen's picture

A possible Way Out

On the one hand, we have connectivity issues for all, especially for people moving from the city on short flights (to Goa, Chennai, Hyderabad, Kochi, Mangalore, Thiruvananthapuram, Kozhikode, Hubli & possibly Shimoga, Gulbarga & Mysore in the future).

On the other, we have the agreements already signed for the new airport.

I think it may be best to have these short haul flights out of the old airport & all others from BIAL. How they work out the commercial arrangements is up to the parties concerned - photoyogi mentioned that state & also central govts have participated in BIAL, so they wud also be effected.

This arrangement will make both airports viable - & crowding will be minimized at the old airport, whilst allowing for quick access for short haul passengers - connectivity difficulties will also be eliminated for them.

In more detail

From 'The Hindu':
http://www.hindu.com/2008...
 

 

idontspam's picture

Not worth it

HAL airport is incapable of handling any flights. It has ZERO parking availability at peak hours. I spent 1 full hour from 8:30AM circling the parking lot with no space to park. Taxis take up ALL of the spaces. Mine and a few others were the only private cars and we were all looking for parking. This HAL airport has reached its capacity while BIAL can expand to accomodate 5 times more traffic.

I was literally fuming over the traffic situation at the airport. EVERY car I saw in the parking lot was a Taxi. I double parked in front of a few, I came back and they were still there.. since taxis dont have to pay the parking fees they probably park long term. It is a pathetic situation and I dont know what the PIL is all about. I would rather we petition the government for inaction on the access to the new airport. I believe we are barking up the wrong tree.

Passengers will not benefit with HAL airport. Especially me, I takes me 2 hours to get to HAL airport. It takes me 30 mins on the 6lane NH7 to the new airport. I will petition against keeping the HAL airport Bangalore doesnt reside only in the south or east.

pbatny's picture

No leader

One of petitioner is R.K Mishra who won the Lead India award. He is talking of taking this case Hon'ble SC  and file a special leave pittion. This is not the thing one can expect from so called "Leader". If he is true leader and concerned about fellow citizens he can mediate b/w GOI and BIAL, rather filing petitions and sending wrong singal for PPP model.

prasad

s_yajaman's picture

Beg to differ with the HC

I think they are punishing the wrong set of people here.  BIAL has negotiated a contract in its best interest (just as Ms. KMS would negotiate every contract in Biocon's favour).

To say that the traffic has beaten all forecasts and therefore BIAL should be okay in letting HAL continue is not fair.  Imagine if Biocon invents a miracle drug and has a forecast of 1 million pieces each year.  Just because it is now selling 2 million pieces each year, should we ask Ms.KMC to give 1 million pieces free?  She took the risk of investing in R&D, marketing, distribution, etc.  If it had bombed would anyone have compensated her for it? 

Similarly BIAL has taken a risk of investing money on this.  Granted air traffic has been growing for the past X years at 30-40%.  Is there any guarantee that it will continue to do so (crude oil just hit 115/barrel today)?  Has the government / civil aviation ministry guaranteed revenue to BIAL even if traffic fell short of forecasts?

If I were the judge I would have asked for some data from the petitioners. 

a. What % of airport traffic per day comes out of E-City?  What % is domestic? 

b. What % of people working there fly domestic more than 2/week?

Without this data, it is just the opinion of the petitioners that people will "suffer".  I don;t think they know what real suffering is - let them try BMTC from JP Nagar to Peenya :)

Now on this argument that it does not make sense to drive 2 hrs for a 45 min flight.  Does it make sense then to drive 2 hrs for a 2.5 hr flight?  Or does it make sense to drive 5 hrs for a 40 hr train journey?

It does not make sense for the average Bangalorean to spend 1 hr to drive 10 km either and he has to do it daily. 

What we need to take into account is the incremental time to BIAL.  Fine it takes 2hrs and 30 mins from E-City to BIAL.  I doubt it takes anything less than 1hr and 30 mins to reach HAL Airport either from E-City. 

HAL Airport is a sitting duck as far as security and safety go.  BDA/BBMP have allowed unbridled development right upto the compound walls.  Garbage is dumped all around.  We have had 1 "dog hit" and 1 "bird-hit" in the last 2 weeks.

I would not be surprised however if they let HAL aiport is allowed to continue with about 30 flights operating everyday.  It might come in handy for BIAL as well just in case it's main runway is down for whatever reason.  It might also enable it to handle 30 flights using much bigger aircraft.

Srivathsa

 

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Vasanth's picture

30 flights to short distances only should be allowed from HAL

This is total injustice to BIAL. They have invested huge amount in BIAL and has given a next generation Airport. What if that Airport is under utilized? BIAL is receiving the beating because of the connectivity issue which Government should have taken care from the day the project was started. Should the connectivity using RAI

People like Capt. Gopinath who run short haul flights pushed this for their own interest.  

If HAL is to stay, it needs to stay only for very short haul flights like Chennai and within Karnataka flights since airports are coming up all over Karnataka.

Photoyogi's picture

HAL should be closed for Civil aviation.

Idontspam, I would second your views, from where i stay ie. near the BDA Jn, the HAL Airport is 12KM but takes me more than 2 Hours! BIAL is about 30 KM and have timed the distance twice its been 45 Min and 50 min (BIAL trip with praja.in in a bus) Even if you add the Airport rush I dont think it would exceed 90 min. So I think its unfair and untrue that the time factor favours HAL. Any one who has been to Dubai or any other modern airport knows that big airports are way out of the main city. What has been done in the case of HIAL? is the Old airport functioning? I was told from a friend when he traveled to hyd, the new airport looks great but the connectivity is worse as compared to Bangalore. On another Note I also remember reading an article when the HAL authorities told the AAI not to have any more flights into/out of Bangalore as it was interfering in the defence operations, testing of the aircrafts.
The above article also states: "About six million passengers use the HAL airport in a year. The airport was originally designed to handle only about 3.6 million passengers a year."
With all these issues at HAL in the better interest of Business and public at large I support closing down of HAL airport for civil use after May 11th 2008. Guys, In Business trust is *everything*, here is a contract that is signed. Honour it is what i would say, not Re-negotiate at delivery of goods -- Praveen Sundaram AkA PhotoYogi

-- PhotoYogi

idontspam's picture

How will renegotiation help access?

I just went thru this article and I dont understand how renegotiating the no-other-airport clause is going to make travel to the new airport better.

I have been watching the anand nagar underpass and the BDA flyover work progress for the past month and it has come to a standstill. I saw some activity only today after more than a month. We need to sue inaction by authorities who build the approach to the airport not renegotiate some clause to make access better. Definitely wrong tree.

navshot's picture

Who really wants HAL??

Can we try to do fact finding as to who is it really that wants HAL to continue - I mean who's lobbying for it in the background? A few business heads is all that comes to my mind. We have to take note of certain sections of media here, who hyped up connectivity issue too much. Innocent public easily get brain-washed by media. Certain other sections of media countered it by doing real fact finding. I have to single out The Hindu and credit them for that. They busted a lot of myths. Ofcourse, that was done when airport is not yet open, but atleast they are facts and not hyped up views of a select few.

After all, majority users are common men who won't travel so frequently as to make it a burning issue. Keeping the innocent brain-washed public in front, there is an invisible set of people who are lobbying for HAL.

I agree connectivity is an issue, but don't agree that it such a critical issue as to keep the old airport open. If not for NHAI's timely execution, instead of 6-lanes of decent connectivity, we'd have had a 2-lanes of chaos on NH7.
-- navshot
santsub's picture

HAL Should close.. post May 11 2008

Well well if the Gov or the petitioners and the judges are playing the connectivity and travel time cards to keep HAL open its a wrong signal.

Any airport in any big city even in the US takes atleast 50 mins for people living abt 30 miles away from the ariport. - Even in well connected cities like NY or Atl. I have driven to these airports - I still do and it takes atleast an hour and 20 mins for me to reach Atl airport which is abt 35 miles away with a freeway that has 7- 8 lanes on each side.

I do not see any reason to keep HAL open except for all the vvips like our politicians to use them. Lets all grow up and honour some good work that has been happening in Bangalore to invite more good to the city and the state.

santsub's picture

Media Hype

Media doesnt get it right - if you compare the statistics that they compile before publishing they are all on different pages. The only thing they finally write at the end of the article is connectivity problem - I like media - but I also hate when they dont get it right. One news paper reports the new airport was designed for 9 million the other says 11million - are we suppose to believe them- they have to get their numbers right before publishing..


I agree with you - media has hyped the connectivity issue more than what the public has to worry about. Have they started lobbying to move software companies closer to their areas of residence because they cannot travel far in the chaos?? Agreed connectivity is the key issue which has to be addressed but keeping an airport open for that is not the answer..

Karnataka BJP on the airport issue

Folks,

Since i stay pretty close to the BJP office in Bangalore. I had the chance of meeting with a top BJP leader, who wishes to remain anonymous. He told me that most cities like London, New York, Washington have two or more airports and that if one weighs in the economics of short-haul flights and general business connectivity, having HAL airport is more benefecial overall to the city.

However, that said, it would be imperative to adhere to contracts with BIAL. Perhaps, BIAL could operate out of HAL for short haul flights, atleast till connectivity to BIAL improves. 

navshot's picture

2nd airport in world's big cities

This is another argument used commonly. There are couple of points:

- First of all, the volumes that the airports in these cities are so huge, that it probably deserves another airport. For example, London's Heathrow airport handles 68 millions of passengers per annum with just two runways. Maybe when we reach 25 million, we can start thinking about the second airport and by the time we reach saturation at BIA, we'll have the second one.

- Most of the examples given are in the rich countries. Here, we have to maximise on efficiency to the fullest possible before spending any more money. If we think we have money to splurge, lets spend it on something more useful... how about some projects for poor farmars?

 

-- navshot
murali772's picture

a contrarian view

At a discussion session at the Bangalore International Centre, last week, while Mr Baligar, IAS, Principal Sec (Infrastructure), GoK, presented the governments case against the retention of the HAL airport, 3 other apeakers, viz - Mr R Ravichander (formerly member BATF), Mr Vinod Vyasulu (an expert on public finance) presented their arguments for the retention of HAL airport operations. The text of Mr Ravichander's presentation is reproduced below:

First a confession - till Nov 2007, I was for honouring the sanctity of the contract and closing HAL. I have since revised my view and I shall present my case for being a turncoat shortly.

A disclaimer - asking for HAL airport to remain open does not mean one is anti BIAL. BIAL is the future and is needed for the city. But HAL can co exist with BIAL being compensated.

The reasons why HAL should remain open (and none of them is about connectivity at all) :

Future proofing is in the public interest. The capacity of BIAL is 12 mn passengers. We are currently at 10.5 mn passengers annually and we will reach current capacity by middle of 2009. With one runway the capacity can go to 14-15 mn passengers, a number that will be reached by mid 2011. The new runway (if it does come up) will not be before 2014 (admitted by BIAL and Govt). So expect shortage in capacity between 2011-14. I am not even referring to cargo which is reasonably messed up in the short term for the next year at BIAL

One argument is that Hyd closed Begumpet so what is the big fuss? Hyd has a current demand of 6.5 mn passengers and an airport with a capacity of 12 mn passengers. Hyd and Blr situation not comparable.

For a rapidly growing developing economy like India, conserving working infra assets makes sense (I do sound like Prakash Karat here). Closing down a working asset especially when it is known that we are going to run into a capacity constraint seems a silly thing to do. And spending Rs 4000 crores of public money on a high speed rail link from KSCA for a Rs. 2220 crores airport project is questionable when alternatives exist. And this spending for the fat cats is not going to go down well with aam aadmi.

A private sector monopoly in the infra sector is not in the public interest particularly in the absence of a strong regulator. Someday we will chat about their revenue models. I think a duopoly will keep both parties honest in the interest of citizens.

Closing HAL will be a self goal. Expect TN to announce a Hosur airport in due course post final closure. And expect that to join Hognekkal as an issue sometime down the line.

2 airports will strengthen State competitiveness, investments, job creation, et all.

The contract. It is not cast in stone. The Global tender did not have HAL closure as a promise. It was in 2004 just before the concession agreement was signed that BIAL insisted on it. And the Ministry of Civil Aviation agreed.

I realize a suggestion such as HAL to be open has consequences. Let me deal with them:

It is not my case that HAL be kept open and BIAL can take a walk. BIAL is in the driver’s seat with the contract. I am for users of HAL airport compensating BIAL on terms to be decided - the general public should not be made to pay for it. I think market can decide the demand and adjust supply accordingly - for instance the Mumbai-HAL fare can be 5500 and the Mumbai - BIAL fare can be 4200 and the difference is given to BIAL. This can be decided by auctioning slots too. BIAL could be made a shareholder in a HAL airport SPV.

A point that is made is that PPP will suffer if we go back on the contract. I don’t think so. Business will come where money is to be made and India is gold rush territory. It will suffer if there is arbitrariness in the decision to keep HAL open. If there is compensation to BIAL then rule of law applies. For eg. in a recent Peru airport, 70 odd conditions were renegotiated. The PPP models are imperfect and they are being honed with each experience.

BIAL claims they will make huge losses and folks have bid at the airport expecting a monopoly. A public hearing on finances should help get a sense of the ‘loss’. In their original projections they expected less than 7 mn passengers this year. If it is proven BIAL is financially devastated then HAL should not be open.

Finally, I repeat it is not about connectivity and travel time to BIAL which will be a hassle in the short term. It’s about a few other issues I have tabled. You may or may not agree. I rest my case.

Ravichander

PS: You may have noticed that I have not expressed my views on the matter. My concern is more for the aam aadmi - the bus traveller :))), even if he is beginning to switch to the VOLVO now.

Muralidhar Rao

Muralidhar Rao
hari's picture

Thank You but I want HAL to close

BIAL is world class and there is absolutely no need to keep HAL open - Which by the way is owned by the company HAL and was mainly used for defence purposes. I don't have to worry about which flight is taking off from which airport. and who has to be picked up where...  When they say Bengaluru airport - I know it is BIAL.

For all I care, it takes the same time for me to drive to HAL as it is to BIAL so why not just BIAL. For all those off you who want HAL to be open - what makes you think our brainy govt servants will not add 150 speed breakers to slow your trip to the HAL airport.. (Slowing your trip to HAL will be a lot more easier solution for the officials than speeding up the trip to BIAL) - Be careful waht you wish for - You may end up getting HAL and also a slow drive to both HAL & BIAL.

 Go BIAL and shut the stinking HAL airport down.

adiraj_09's picture

BIAL

Again, I feel that we dont require HAL Airport, ok..lets assume that domestic flights operate from HAL airport even after opening of BIAL, then, we will definitely be under -utilising the facilities of BIAL.How many international flights take off in a day?? do we require a new airport just to operate just 20-25 flights per day??...thats the question we need to ask?? There are very few intl flights, and most of the flights from HAL are doemstic.So, if we want to continue with HAL airport, then we all have to accept the fact that situation will not change in HAL even after the opening of New Airport...so is the objective acheived?

silkboard's picture

Airport in my backyard

If that (I want airport in backyard) is the justification for HAL, then sorry. thats not the case for more than 50% of Bangaloreans today who have to come from North or West side, it takes them equally longer to come to HAL today.

If capacity shortage at BIAL on Day 1 is the problem, then let us suffer through a couple of years and create another world class airport elsewhere if possible. You have to experience it a few times to see how pathetic the services of HAL airport are. I'd rather spend 30 minutes extra on the road than wait for 55 minutes for my baggage to arrive after an international arrival. I'd rather take 30 minutes of Volvo A/c and wifi than wait stuck at airport for 30-45 minutes of unscheduled and unannounced delay which is so common and always due to this thing called "congestion at Bengaluru airport".

If we have been able to suffer through HAL (doing 10.5 mill when it is designed for a third of that capacity, that too with so below par service levels), how hard will it be to live through 10-15% capacity over-run at BIAL?

And remember, solving connectivity problems for BIAL will make us solve the general connectivity and public transport problems of our city. Dont you love the increased awareness and discussions everywhere around public transport, rail connectivity, traffic corridors etc? Isn't it wonderful to see the attention going away from meaningless flyovers and road widening which is what everyone seemed to require to get to HAL or other locations inside the city?

santsub's picture

BIAL

Keeping HAL open will beat the purpose of building a new airport. First of all even if we are saturated in an years time at BIAL - it is enough of warning that we have to expand. That is the very reason we have a new Airport. Instead of retaining HAL we have to renegotiate the UDF with BIAL and help the airport consortium recover that money in many other creative ways.

BIAL will have to start expanding immediately after June '08 to beat any further issues with serving more passengers. Lobbying is the norm of Democracy. But making it Demo crazy is foolish.. Even in 2003 it would take about 1.5 hrs for me to reach HAL airport especially during peak hours.. that says it all it has always been that long - media hype and some lobbying has highlighted this issue to a very great extent.

Guys we will all appreciate the new airport. Lets make it better and bigger and easier for the may 11th launch and hope the expansion phase starts immediately too.

 I am hoping that Mr Brunner has noted all the criticism on the Airport design and will be out with a mega plan to change these shortcomings...

tango08's picture

What do you mean by build

What do you mean by build "another" world class airport? You call BIAL world class? It is nothing but a sized up HAL airport with socialism written all over it. It would have made sense had it been built during the times of Indira Gandhi. It doesn't even belong to this century, let alone the future. I would rather Bangalore have a proper world class airport that looks to the future than use this sad apology called BIAL. Until that time, jai HAL airport.
paanwalla's picture

some questions to Mr Ravichander

Let me introduce myself, Am Paanwallaa and represent the aam janta with a thinking cap. This post of having a contrarians view seems to jaundiced with an ulterior motive to hurt people like me. Allow me to pose a few questions that may throw light.
I have quoted your text just to make it easier.

At a discussion session at the Bangalore International Centre, last week, while Mr Baligar, IAS, Principal Sec (Infrastructure), GoK, presented the governments case against the retention of the HAL airport, 3 other apeakers, viz - Mr R Ravichander (formerly member BATF), Mr Vinod Vyasulu (an expert on public finance) presented their arguments for the retention of HAL airport operations. The text of Mr Ravichander's presentation is reproduced below:

Mr R Ravichander : First a confession - till Nov 2007, I was for honouring the sanctity of the contract and closing HAL. I have since revised my view and I shall present my case for being a turncoat shortly.

Paanwalla: Why Nov 2007 can some one enlighten me as to why such a drastic reversal of faith.

Mr R Ravichander : A disclaimer - asking for HAL airport to remain open does not mean one is anti BIAL. BIAL is the future and is needed for the city. But HAL can co exist with BIAL being compensated.

Paanwalla: At what cost? At the cost oh having both the airports being unfeasible to operate there by resulting in poor maintainance etc etc and then saying I told you so? (tut tut tut)

Mr R Ravichander : The reasons why HAL should remain open (and none of them is about connectivity at all) :

Future proofing is in the public interest. The capacity of BIAL is 12 mn passengers. We are currently at 10.5 mn passengers annually and we will reach current capacity by middle of 2009.

Paanwalla: stop stop stop……… where did you get this number of 10.5 mn ? Please see this report from AAI & HAL that says in 2006 the capacity that HAL was doing was 6 mn Are you suggesting that in a matter of 2 years the growth has been an additional 4mn after HAL saturated and said no more new flights into and out of Bangalore? Please read http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/04/25/stories/2006042520460100.htm

So if am right, you seem to have gotten the numbers wrong, this whole argument according to you brings us comparable to the Hyderabad situation, so shut HAL Down!

Ok wait I forgot to mention Bangalore HAL airport was designed to handle 3.6mn and possibly now handing about 7-8mn passengers even that’s 222% why don’t you apply the same logic to BIAL.

Mr R Ravichander : With one runway the capacity can go to 14-15 mn passengers, a number that will be reached by mid 2011. The new runway (if it does come up) will not be before 2014 (admitted by BIAL and Govt). So expect shortage in capacity between 2011-14. I am not even referring to cargo which is reasonably messed up in the short term for the next year at BIAL

Paanwalla: This info is a misrepresentation and skewed logic. Please read this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

Mr R Ravichander : One argument is that Hyd closed Begumpet so what is the big fuss? Hyd has a current demand of 6.5 mn passengers and an airport with a capacity of 12 mn passengers. Hyd and Blr situation not comparable.

Paanwalla: Please read my above argument.

Mr R Ravichander : For a rapidly growing developing economy like India, conserving working infra assets makes sense (I do sound like Prakash Karat here). Closing down a working asset especially when it is known that we are going to run into a capacity constraint seems a silly thing to do. And spending Rs 4000 crores of public money on a high speed rail link from KSCA for a Rs. 2220 crores airport project is questionable when alternatives exist. And this spending for the fat cats is not going to go down well with aam aadmi.
Paanwalla: Why the heck are you talking of aam aadmi now?? Is this the next tactic to get the Metro outta steam?

Mr R Ravichander : A private sector monopoly in the infra sector is not in the public interest particularly in the absence of a strong regulator. Someday we will chat about their revenue models. I think a duopoly will keep both parties honest in the interest of citizens.
Paanwalla: America is a country that has built monopolies and will squash them too we have to learn to take the best of these ideas and move ahead not keep saying we are on the right track and keep sitting there cos a train of progress will run us over soon enough.

Mr R Ravichander :Closing HAL will be a self goal. Expect TN to announce a Hosur airport in due course post final closure. And expect that to join Hognekkal as an issue sometime down the line.
Paanwalla: This is a run in the Jungle or in other words a googly and proves you are running outta ammo so doesn’t that mean BIAL will have to perform better?

The rest of the posting I don’t care 2 hoots and don’t think its worth my time.

 

Paanwalla

Paanwalla
ramesh_mbabu's picture

True - HAL Airport is a no-man's land

Had been there early in the morning today, at 5.10AM, the entry road was full till the main road, vehicle parked on either side just next to NO PARKING boards, taxis as well as private cars. Asked the passenger to get down and go to the airlines counter. Found a parking space, mean while there were parking lots vacant in side probably peple are hesitant to pay the exorbitant rates, they charge Rs 60/- for a 4 hour parking, there is no incentive for those who park for an hour or less and still the parking is at owners risk it seemsCry. Hope the proposed Airport Regulator Authority & competetion from private players (Customers asking the same kind of quality from AAI, like what is happening to BSNL) will make them better.

PS: There was an ambassador with red signal on top too blocked among the cars, later I saw Minister Jayaram Ramesh entering gate NO1, no chamchas around which is quite unusual about Congress Netas Cool

Ramesh

narayan82's picture

Figures...

I have always wondered, who creates these figures (airport capacity). Isn't it strange:

Hyderabad has 125,000 sq ft space and Bangalore 70,000 sqft, Hyd has 60 check in counters , BIAL 53 - yet both can handle 12 million pax per year.

Either HYD has some bad space management, or no one is really confirming the Capacity.

 My earlier assumption was that HYD had airline operating offices inside the terminal building while BIAL had it in a seperate building - but turns out both have it inside.

 I wonder what this is an interpretation off?

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
silkboard's picture

more PILs?

From the paper reports, I couldn't get the exact agreement HC has for asking to retain HAL airport? Is it inconvenience to public? or BIAL not being 'world class' or 'ready'?

HC clearly said that its not the distance, Its okay to have airports 40 km away from the city.

If HC is saying that anticipated capacity overrun will cause inconvenience to 'public', then that should setup good ground for some more interesting PILs.

  • What is the capacity of Bangalore City Railway station?
  • What is the capacity of Regional Passport Office's processing counters?
  • What is the capacity of some of the roads?
  • what is the water supplying capacity of BWSSB?

Thinking bigger, what is the 'capacity' of Bangalore taking its infrastructure inadequacy into account. Is there scope for a PIL to prevent BBMP/BDA from accepting any new investment inside its area  because all these cause inconvenience to public. I would love such a thing - no investment (new offices, IT, BT, Malls, Hospitals) unless the 'regions' infrastructure is proven to be adequate to take on more load.

vmenon's picture

BIAL /HAL and the Courts

I am new on to praja and the BIAL topic intrests me.

I will only put down some points which so far have not been raised in the forum..and I am a pro BIAL advocate.

a)Argument of Short Haul flights etc from HAL:

Has anyone considered the costs for airlines to maintain two establishments ( maintainence) at 2 airports in bangalore and that too at this small ( by world standards) air traffic.What we are doing is esentially building in inefficencies if Hal is kept open.

 

b)Has anyone thought of the absolute environmental disaster that is HAL ..noise pollution in very residential neighbourhoods being just one of them.

IF Hal is kept open ,in time it will need to expand and the one lung space ( the army land around HAL ) will come into threat.

c) An argument that BIAl in fact should be compensated if HAL is kept open.

By whom? it will finally boil down to the exchequer..and further propogating inefficencies .

d)In my opinion, the day HAL is allowed to be kept open , that also becomes the day when all plans/actvity on connectivity to BIAL goes into a deep freeze.If one knows government and government agencies, the only way to get them to work is by keeping the fire hot.

e)There was some question on the forum on who is really behind this keep HAl open move.

Well there happens to be an organisation called city connect ..fundamentally corporate ,purpoted to collborate with government on city's connectiveity ills...In true bangalore style , they seem to have taken a much larger role on themselves with this BIAL PIL.

But this "city connect" does threaten to be an elitist , for corporate, extra constitutional platform , much like the BATF of old,.which in my view failed not because of lack of vison and skills, but the extreme narrow intrests that it pushed.

 

On this whole BIAL affiar, what saddens me is that while there is so much opinion out there that HAL should be closed ..all these have been in the background , while it the few who want for their own convienience to keep HAL open, who have moved courts and fashioned public opinion.

Some of us should try to strengthen BIALs hand.

idontspam's picture

Try after 8AM...

...when all the domestic flights start coming in with business travellers. Go to the arrival parking area and see the chaos. If HAL knew there were going to be so many passengers why havent they invested in increasing parking space? Why havent they invested in systems for faster movement of passengers? Why havent they invested in increasing handling capacity to handle more airlines?

My answer... because they cant, wont and never will . They dont have the capacity or ability. They could have shown that they can buiild better facilities than BIAL and stopped this new airport building. No they didnt. How was it not monopoly at that time? Isnt New Delhi and Mumbai monopoly then? Shouldnt we start having 2 airports everywhere for competition then?

Why on earth did we want a new airport in the first place then? Isnt it because we wanted better facilities and a hassle free travel? Why then do want this pig sty which will remain a pig sty for ever? Oh I know... because BIAL is going to be expensive for the airlines and they will hurt the bottom line!!! This has nothing to do with Mr citizen.

idontspam's picture

Not taking sides but...

Instead of taking sides I believe we deserve better facilities than HAL gives us today. I dont believe profit driven enterprises will put people before profit when there is a conflict between the two at the same time do not believe the generation of people running the public services today have the capacity to build world class systems. Look at road traffic engineering and traffic management for example. We arent even where the developed nations were 50 years ago.

The need for a regulator and constant checking and enforcement of standards in the new airport is absolutely necessary as was shown to our benefit when the ATC wasnt done and the airport was being opened. I believe a regulator is a must to keep people honest. That said there has to be a balance between keeping a pig sty open and ensuring we get the best of what we choose to get built.

narayan82's picture

I dont think the truth is

I dont think the truth is visible. I think there is more happening behind our backs/eyes on this airport contreversy. It just doesnt sound convincing enough that HAL needs to be kept open. I think people stand to gain from it if it does, and hence are fighting for it. I hope HAL isnt kept open, as I see that bringing down the avaition sector in BLR.

vmenon -
the part about airlines is something I hadn't thought about - but makes very good sense. Especially when at BIAL airlines would outsource ground handling entirely (to Air india SATS/Globe Ground) whilst in HAL many do it themselves

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Devesh's picture

Important to know the facts about BIAL

There is a very lively discussion going on at Praja. Great to see that.

However, many comments, seem to be born of out a lack of complete facts, and "buy-in" of the terrific media campaign by BIAL.

While my views here are strictly personal, I head the Infrastructure committe for the Bangalore Chamber of Industry and Commerce. I have been monitoring the Bangalore Aviation scene since 1993.

It was my report compiled after extensive studies in 2004, and presented to Shri Praful Patel in early 2005, that paved the way for the terminal expansion, and other facilities expansion at HAL airport. I have a special affection for Bangalore, not for HAL or AAI.

Since 2001, when BIAL was just announced, I have been harping about connectivity and I used the term "no airport is an island". Yet precisely this is what has happened.

All of us, would like to conveniently blame the Government for not doing its job and absolve BIAL. Yet, we Bangaloreans seem to have forgotten that Govt. of Karnataka is an integral PART OF BIAL. Two IAS officers serve on the Board of Directors of BIAL.

I can tell you that both R.K. Misra and the Bangalore City Connect Foundation (which comprises of ALL major industrial bodies in Bangalore, along with Janaagraha), welcome the new airport, but not exclusively.

We know that air traffic growth has surpassed the capacity of BIAL, and at no point in the PIL, have either RK or BCCF asked the Hon. Court to stop BIAL. The PIL was to keep HAL open in ADDITION to BIA.

Just for your information, R.K. Misra and all in industry including some of the senior industry leaders mentioned in various posts in this thread, attempted to sit down with BIAL, GoK, GoI, leaders and explain them the situation, and to mediate a solution. BIAL would just not hear it.

BIAL even went so far as to say in court, that they will not let the airport open if the court ruled against it. I have never seen such a threatening attitude by any company.

BIAL is following the rule of Cortez, when he first invaded the Americas. He burnt his ships so that his sailors and soldiers had no way to go back. BIAL realises that if HAL airport is allowed to continue, its capacity constraint will come out in the open, and Bangaloreans will have a way to go back; unless it closes HAL airport for good.

It is important to know all the facts, and most of the media just follows BIAL blindly. If you would like both sides of the story, visit my blog.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

HAL in addition to BIAL

The issue is of choice that is about it.

The proposal mooted by the petioners was to have both airports open, and let BIAL and HAL and AAI sit down and thrash things out in terms of detail.

Give all of us, including airlines, freedom from the tyranny of monopoly, something, we seem to have grown to accept.

We have seen the rebellion of airlines at RGIA Hyderabad, who refused to operate given the exorbitant prices proposed. http://deveshagarwal.blog...

That is why BIAL is fighting tooth and nail, to nail all of us with the ridiculously high UDF, which by the way is in ADDITION to the PSF. They want to earn back all their investment within 5 years. Please give me such an infrastructure project. I can help my next 7 generations retire.

I agree with your views that HAL terminal has reached its capacity. However, have you observed the efficiency of airside at HAL airport ?

The terminal is owned and operated by AAI not HAL. HAL is responsible for air operations, i.e. once you get on to the plane.

All other airports in India are handled by AAI, including BIAL. Unlike Delhi and Mumbai, how often have you heard your captain say "Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to Bangalore, we are 24th in line for landing, and will have to circle for another 2 hours"

Just for your information, HAL has only 24 air traffic controllers, when compared to 130 AAI controllers at Kolkata - an airport handling less than half the traffic of HAL.

Why do we need to have a tit-for-tat situation ? For the first time in the history of our city, we have the ability to be ahead of the capacity curve, instead of playing catch-up.

BIAL will have opening day traffic over 100% of its designed capacity. If we take only the short haul flights, it adds up to about 3.5 million passengers. Given 30% growth, both airports will still run out of capacity by 2018-2020.

We should be planning where the 3rd airport of Bangalore is going to be at, not continue fighting on whether there should be 2.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

81.3% of all travellers flying in and out of Bangalore want HAL

Check out the story on my blog http://deveshagarwal.blog...

Feedback Business Consulting Services Pvt. Ltd., did a survey of about 1,150 passengers at HAL Bangalore airport. Without belittling electronic, web, or phone surveys, this was a face-to-face survey of actual passengers involving considerable effort, and thus, is the most honest and un-biased opinion, anyone can hope to get.

The survey was conducted between 26/Feb and 1/Mar 2008, from 6AM to 10PM, across a wide cross section of passengers -- frequent vs. occasional flyers, Bangalore/Karnataka residents vs. non residents, business vs. leisure travellers, across gender, across age groups (19 - 55+ years), arriving and departing passengers.

The results :

  • 70.7% of those surveyed said they will be adversely or significantly adversely impacted by closure of HAL airport
  • 81.3% agreed with the statement "I feel that the connectivity to the new BIAL airport at Devanahalli is not yet in place and HAL airport needs to be kept open"
  • 71.4% said that all parties should sit down and work out a mutually beneficial arrangement
  • Only 19.4% agreed with the statement "I think the government should close HAL airport as set out in the agreement, irrespective of any public inconvenience in the short term"
  • 77.8% felt that "Longer travel time to the new BIAL airport at Devanahalli will adversely affect the productivity of businesses in Bangalore"
  • 72.5% said "Bangalore's economy is growing rapidly and it is desirable to keep existing infrastructure like HAL airport open to handle rising demand".

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
idontspam's picture

Please answer these...

Why is it that during peak hours I dont find parking at the HAL airport arrival area?

Why is it that all the parking slots slots are taken by Taxis and others are not allowed to park?

Why is it that no screen informs me which belt my luggage is going to land on?

Why is it that my airplane has to wait in line for a parking slot on the airside during peak hours?

Why has nothing been done to ensure we have good facilities for waiting for a flight and not have to be herded like cattle in the departure area?

Why is it that your organization and like minded individuals not put a stop to the concession agreement while it was being signed? Where were all the PIL's then?

Why is it that I still have a miserable experience at Bangalore airport while I am relatively comfortable in other international airports?

Why is that I have to put up with this apology of an airport?

What is the garuntee that HAL if kept open will provide equal if not better facilities as BIAL?

Why is it that other businesses can make money thru their nose and not take care of the city while BIAL is targetted for making money?

Why is the MOCA not regulating UDF and other charges we have to resort to using HAL because of their inability to do the same?

Why is HAL being used as a bogey to solving contract pricing issues? Why cant PIL be filed on the UDF and other charges directly?

Why do the PIL and judgement give the impresion that HAL has better connectivity than BIAL? I believe 50% of Bangalore have a problem commuting to HAL due to traffic issues. I have personally missed flights due to traffic on airport road.

Why is the govt/BBMP/NHAI/PWD not a party in the PIL on connectivity related issues?

Why should HAL be an answer to solve rising demand? Why cant the govt/MOCA monitor the quality of service while allowing BIAL to handle the rising demand?

s_yajaman's picture

Welcome to praja

Dear Devesh,

We are honoured to have you comment on praja.in.  I will attempt to respond to you.  My views may not be representative of that of the other members.  Ours is a democratic site where people's varied opinions are always welcome.  Some questions and comments

a. Why do we have different standards for HAL Airport and BIAL Airport?  Connectivity to HAL Airport is good or even acceptable? Since when? Please help me understand.  It took me 1 hr and 20 mins to reach home for a flight landing at 8:15 p.m. and for a distance of 16 km.  I have at times waited 30 mins in the taxi queue.  There is no coach facility that starts inside the airport. 

b. The timing of all this is what rankles many of us here.  It was not as if BIAL's location was a state secret for the last 3 years.  Why open a can of worms now?  How many businesses operate with public interest in mind?  Why should BIAL negotiate?  What is in it for them? 

c. I made a point in another response on BIAL's windfall in terms of traffic growth.  You might want to read that. 

d. Resistance to change is nothing new, not in Bangalore, not in India and not in the world.  BMRCL's progress or the lack of it is another example.  You might want to spend your energies speeding that up.  It will really help a lot of people.

e.There is another monstrous monopoly in Bangalore called BMTC.  R.K. Misra might want to have a go at it.  Improving public transport can solve a number of problems at the same time including reducing the time it takes to get to the new airport. 

f. Longer travel times within the city probably(?) affect businesses more than travel time to the airport.  The former seems to have been taken for granted.  Also, unless I operate one of the shops in the airport, I would be hard pressed to imagine what business needs daily trips to the airport?  I used to be a Platinum card holder for Jet and I did only 2 flights a week.  Some of us (and you might know who I mean) also need to stop pretending that travel from E-City to HAL is instantaneous.

g. If HAL Airport can handle 10.5 million (3 or 3.5 times it's rated capacity), why are we worried that BIAL will have 10% more than its rated capacity in year 1?  Why the different standards again?

h. My concern is that because of this sort of noise and for the sake of 30000 people who use the airport every day, the government is planning to spend $1B on a high speed railway and Rs.800 crores on an expressway that is hard to reach in the first place.  For probably 20% of that money we could debottleneck the whole ORR.  The rest could have been spent on better things like schools and hospitals for the general public.

I do not mean any offence and certainly appreciate a lively discussion.

Regards,

Srivathsa

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Devesh's picture

Transit time, Brasil and Estoppel

Hi Praveen

May be you should have a sitting with Lokayukta Justice Santhosh Hegde. At the "Unlock Bangalore" summit, recently held by Times of India, he publically stated that it takes him 50~55 mins everyday to go from his residence in RMV 2nd stage to Vidhana Soudha. Surprised

But why are we playing tit-for-tat. "It takes me 2 hours to HAL, so now those guys in the South must suffer". Why can we not have choice.

Cities in Brasil which are the same as Bangalore, have 2 airports. 1 large out-of-city, and 1 smaller in-city. The in-city airports were kept open after political pressure, and both airports (in Sao Paulo and Rio) are functioning with full profitability. We can we not emulate Basil. After all Brasil is part the economic grouping of BRIC (Brasil, Russia, India, China)

With regards to contracts, by your measure of contracts frozen in stone, as a citizen, you have no right to additional facilities. You entered in to a contract with the city of Bangalore, when there were only so many roads. So you have right to ask from Government anything more in the form of additional facilities. No additional phones, cable TV, no broadband, no additional water, no broader roads, nothing.

Contracts have to be and always are dynamic. They have to accomodate changing realities.

That aside, I think the issue here is, if BIAL capacity cannot meet Bangalore's needs, then what ? We as a city are locked in for 60 years. According to you, the great city of Bangalore should whither away and die, due to economic starvation.

Please remember, BIAL was conceived at a time when air traffic in Bangalore was only 2.7 million passengers, and annual growth was 5%. 10 million looked like an unreachable peak.

During the 4 years of discussions on the concession agreement 2001-2005, air traffic in Bangalore grew 80% to 4 million.

During the 36 months, BIAL has taken to construct BIA, air traffic has grown 255% to 10.7 million.

I put it to everyone at Praja, this quantum of growth is just not anticipated, let alone planned for.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
idontspam's picture

Contract renegotiation

I agree this contract needs to be renegotiated... but not the clause that there should be another airport. We should be renegotiating UDF and other charges. We should be renegotiating the plan to ensure additional capacity is built faster and not at the pace planned with lesser growth projections. We should clear the second runway and force BIAL to commission it ASAP. We should be introducing clauses where BIAL takes more infrastructure responsibilities for the money they are going to make. We should make BBMP/NHAI parties on connectivity and include them as stakeholders in maintaining service levels. I see ulterior motives in trying to bypass the real issues which hurt the common man. This looks like a save HAL campaign rather than help common man campaign.
Photoyogi's picture

Numbers Numbers Numbers

Hi Devesh, Umm firstly i would not be the first person to believe anyone until there was reasonable justification. Can you show me the numbers with references. The link in my posting wrt the Hindu article appeared about a year ago. It did not become 10.5 mn passengers yesterday, aviation experts must have seen this on the radar long back. The contracts were signed long back it was known HAL had to be shut down as per the contract. Why pull the plug at such a late stage when everything is ready. Is this why they say daal mein kuch kala hain? -- Praveen Sundaram AkA PhotoYogi

-- PhotoYogi

Devesh's picture

Replies


Why is it that during peak hours I dont find parking at the HAL airport arrival area?
Lack of space. AAI owns and controls the terminal area, and Bangalore has always been the victim of the traditional "4-metro" thinking by the mandarins in Delhi. The 4 metro airports receive about 5x - 8x the funding, resources, and attention PER PASSENGER when compared to Bangalore, even today.

Incidentally, AAI is the shareholder at BIAL, not HAL.

Why is it that all the parking slots slots are taken by Taxis and others are not allowed to park?
Taxi Mafia. Plain and Simple. I had proposed to AAI to have a 30 minute parking slot. That directive has to come from Delhi and needs to be applicable to ALL AAI airports in India.

Why is it that no screen informs me which belt my luggage is going to land on?
Same as question 1.

Why is it that my airplane has to wait in line for a parking slot on the airside during peak hours?
Apron space is a problem at all airports globally. But be honest, how often has this happened to you. I am sure, it is very rare.

Why has nothing been done to ensure we have good facilities for waiting for a flight and not have to be herded like cattle in the departure area?
Same as Question 1. Also, bottom line, there is no space.

Why is it that your organization and like minded individuals not put a stop to the concession agreement while it was being signed? Where were all the PIL's then?
In 2001 the traffic was 2.1 million growing at 5%. In 2004 the traffic was 3.5 million growing at 15%. It is only in the last 4 years have we seen 50% year on year growth to reach 10.8 million.

No one, even BIAL has anticipated, let alone planned this capacity. RGIA Hyderabad is also a 12 million passenger airport, but today Hyderabad traffic is only 5.8 million.

BIAL is projecting a 65% increase in international and 21% in domestic from existing 10.8 million, with a capacity of 12 million. That will exceed their capacity from Day 1.

I have the data to back up my claims, and it is BIAL data. Already all the slots from 6AM-10AM and from 6PM-8PM are filled. How many business passenger are willing to take a flight in the middle of the day, for that is the only time left. I am putting a new story on my blog. Give me 15 minutes.

Why is it that I still have a miserable experience at Bangalore airport while I am relatively comfortable in other international airports?
Same as Question 1. But tell me, do you have a SIGNIFICANTLY better experience at any other AAI run airport. Remember Mumbai and Delhi are not AAI airports.

Why is that I have to put up with this apology of an airport?
You do not. Competition should rule. You and me, and all passengers of South Karnataka, should have the choice. Not everyone can afford a "5 star" airport. But those who can, and those who cannot, should have the choice.

Not one petitioner, and me included, does not welcome BIA. We do not welcome it EXCLUSIVELY, but we are happy that BIA is coming up and we are proud of the efforts of all the stakeholders at BIAL.

What is the garuntee that HAL if kept open will provide equal if not better facilities as BIAL?
It never will, and definitely not with the amount of funding it receives. You want BIAL like service, give HAL that kind of money and support.

Have the Government, spend 300 Cr of YOUR money removing impediments to HAL as it has done for BIA.
Read my article http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/04/is-lrde-test-facility-casualty-of.html

Be ready to demolish Rs. 2000 Cr. spent on Yelahanka airbase and move it out of BIA's way.

Yes, the government will spend more of OUR money to support BIAL than the promoters have put in to the project.

Why is it that other businesses can make money thru their nose and not take care of the city while BIAL is targetted for making money?
Firstly we are not targetting the reasonable profit of BIA. You seem to overlook that BIAL is sitting on Rs. 8000 Cr worth of land that was sold to it at Rs. 200 Cr. The land they bought at Rs. 5 lakhs per acre, they are renting out at Rs. 15 lakh per acre PER YEAR. Over 30 years, assuming no increase, it still be Rs. 450 lakhs per acre. In my book that is a 9000% profit. Read my article http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/04/perils-of-pioneering-bangalores-loss-of.html

Most airports today make more money from "non aviation" revenues than from aviation revenues (passenger fees like UDF included). Not BIAL. They will earn back the investment on us, then once we are used to the high fees, roll out the commercial development.

Other business are that are making money thru their noses are doing it in a competitive environment, not in a monopoly. Keeping HAL open also provides for limited competition, and will keep BIAL honest.

Why is it that BIAL as a corporation wants two vendors for all its services? Competition, which ensures lower pricing and better service.

Yet when it comes to BIA itself, BIAL does not want any competition.

Why is the MOCA not regulating UDF and other charges we have to resort to using HAL because of their inability to do the same?
Because of the contract that has been signed. The concession agreement, is akin to the Mughal rulers of old, selling off their citizenry to the very first PPP. It was called the British East India company.

Why is HAL being used as a bogey to solving contract pricing issues? Why cant PIL be filed on the UDF and other charges directly?
It was filed. The governments of both Karnataka and India, and their various companies HAL included, fought tooth and nail against it (for obvious reasons).

Why do the PIL and judgement give the impresion that HAL has better connectivity than BIAL? I believe 50% of Bangalore have a problem commuting to HAL due to traffic issues. I have personally missed flights due to traffic on airport road.
Join my club. :)

Actually the court has not given much credence to connectivity. We all know connectivity will get addressed, later if not sooner.

Capacity and competition is the main concern right now, which is why the court has asked GOI. GOK, and BIAL to re-negotiate the contract.

Why is the govt/BBMP/NHAI/PWD not a party in the PIL on connectivity related issues?
GOK, KSIIDC, MOCA, GOI, AAI and HAL were respondents. BBMP, NHAI, and PWD are not directly connected to the airport.

Why should HAL be an answer to solve rising demand? Why cant the govt/MOCA monitor the quality of service while allowing BIAL to handle the rising demand?
MOCA is the owner of AAI, the shareholder of BIAL. Given how well the government has fared living up to its responsibility, you want the fox to guard itself against the chicken coop?!?!?!

I also repeat. BIA will be at 100% capacity from day 1. I am not referring to the terminal, but the runway. Please read my ENTIRE blog. I have a lot of technical articles. It takes 3 years to make a runway, which has to strong enough to take a 350 ton Jumbo landing at 300 kmph or worse still, taking off with all engines at full thrust.

And bottom line, what is the economic harm if 10% of BIA traffic is diverted to HAL ? BIA will still continue to operate at over 90% capacity. And any infrastructure project manager will tell you, that is a fantastic number, not just good.

Incidentally, just for your info, BIAL is following AAI practice of not charging ATR and other turbo props any landing fees. HAL does charge. In fact it is economically beneficial for BIAL to let the ATRs go to HAL, which frees up valuable landing slots.

Today, landing slots are at a premium. Continental Airlines paid $200 million for its landing slots at Heathrow, under the newly introduced "Open Skies" policy between the USA and the EU.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Naveen's picture

BIAL & HAL - What's wrong if both stay ?

The story of the airport/s in our city is getting more & more murky !

I appreciate yr views srivathsa, photoyogi, idontspam, & others, but, what I still dont understand is - what is the harm if HAL continues to operate as a 2nd airport ?

At present, HAL is clearly overloaded, & it is just about holding together & somehow managing. If the airport handles only short haul flts - as I had previously mentioned, the loads would drop to very low levels & we might see an improvement since space /services would not be strained & it would allow for improvements to be worked upon - one wud'nt see rows upon rows of taxis, to name one instant improvement when loads are reduced with BIAL commencing operations.

Further, I fully agree that growth levels have been phenomenal & were never expected to rise so fast - I go out & come in to the city frequently & each time I return, I find more flts, more people & much more activity - all clear indications that growth has been leap frogging at unprecedented levels - this is similar to the growth levels in chinese cities - each time you visit, there is so much more people in the airports, & there are a great deal of infrastructural improvements. In our country, there is growth, but very poor pace in addition to infrastructure as we continue to argue & debate endlessly.
(Incidentally, this is why I do not support Monorail for the city, as with these growth levels, it wud become insufficient within a few years after commisssioning, & would be insufficient).
Devesh's picture

Capacity, Capacity, Capacity

I  have no special love for HAL. In fact, the recently retired as Managing Director, considered me a pain in the a**, for constantly bugging him and pubically calling for expansion of the HAL airport.

Airports are not magical things. Runways need a minimum 2~3 years to make. The capacity constraint at BIA is not the terminal, right now, but the runway. HAL has shown us that we Bangaloreans are an accomodation people, and terminal capacity can be stretched.

Unfortunately, runway capacity is determined by the cold hard rules of international air safety. 

My love and interest is for Bangalore, as a whole. We are the premiere city in India. We should be ahead of the demand curve not playing catch-up.

Connecting the overall picture is important. The new airports bill being tabled in Parliament, specially removes the exclusive clause, for all new airports. The GOI has learnt its mistake.

The court has given Government and BIAL the political cover to re-negotiate. Here is an opportunity for us to obtain a better contract for ourselves.

Check out my story http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/04/bial-contract-re-negotiation-time-for.html 

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
idontspam's picture

Does not answer

First, Since you agree with me that HAL will never (be allowed to) scale up its services. This still does not anser my basic need. I DO NOT want to use the HAL airport as it exists and the level of service it offers. If I have a choice I want to enjoy the quality facilities BIA offers. If the renegotation forces me to use HAL airport it is NO GO and I will be the first one at the courts with a PIL that this violates my right to choice of services.

Second, If we renegotiate to keep HAL open today because of BIA not being able to accomodate the traffic. Will we agree to shut it down when BIA scales up with the second runway to meet the traffic projections and more?

 

Devesh's picture

Even I do not want an EXCLUSIVE HAL or BIA

Finally you and me are in agreement, at least on one point. Choice.

Our efforts are to keep both airports open, and then have a high powered committee including AAI, BIAL, HAL, Airlines, Industry Bodies, sit down and work out the details.

With regards to scaling up. By using Mumbai airport data, I have written an article on the real capacity of BIA. http://deveshagarwal.blog...

Please do visit and check it out.

Even with two runways, BIA will have a capacity of 30 million passengers, and even assuming BIAL's uber-conservative growth of 10% per year, this figure will be reached by 2016.

Check this picture. http://picasaweb.google.c...

Even with HAL airport, we will need to consider another airport, bigger than BIAL, now!!!

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

Bangalore Air Traffic History

Bangalore Air Traffic History

Praveen, very valid point. Very frankly speaking the growth of air traffic in Bangalore has been un-anticpated, let alone being planned for. Even BIAL was caught flat-footed. Only when my presentation in 2006 reached MoCA, did they wake up and force BIAL to expand the airport for the third time. Even now, the capacity is only 12 million, and by Mr. Brunner's own admission http://deveshagarwal.blog...

the capacity of 15 million will be achieved only 3 years hence. Assuming 30% growth, we will hit this figure in 18 months. BIAL needs an economic slow down in Bangalore to meet its time frame.

 

Hopefully this picture will help you.

http://picasaweb.google.c...

http://picasaweb.google.c...

Please also do visit and check my blog. http://deveshagarwal.blog...


Actually, I have been harping about capacity for well over a year now, in various industry fora.


We wanted to exhaust all mediation first. Only in the TABF (tried all but failed) situation we opted for a PIL.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
tsubba's picture

yelahanka

about yelahanka. with yelahanka south of it how did the devanahalli site even get a clearance by MoD in the first place? and what is a possible way out of yelahanka issue?
s_yajaman's picture

More questions and my two cents

Devesh,

My fundamental issue is regarding the timing that you guys have chosen to raise these issues.  Secondly, it at times appears as smoke and mirrors.  Is it competition, connectivity, capacity or some combination of all these?  This inopportune timing puts our city in very bad light.  For people on the outside like me it looks like it is the work of the lobby of budget airlines who now want to protect their short haul routes (to put it bluntly) and not out of any great consideration for Bangaloreans.

What is your proposal on HAL Airport - you have not described that in any detail?  Is it only for turboprop aircraft?  How have you defined short haul?  How many flights do you propose operate out of HAL?  Which destinations have been proposed?  How will air safety be managed - I was just watching a Nat Geo program on the mid air collision over Charki Dadri.  What happens to a passenger who now flies from say Mangalore but wants to go to Singapore - imagine the poor mans plight!  Have you given that sort of thing any consideration?  How many flights/airline?  Are these tradeable?  Are airlines prepared to have another set of operations for e.g. 5 flights a day?

The way I would position it is as follows

a. BIAL gives up say 25-30 flights a day to HAL.  If they don't there is a chance that they anyway die due to lack of traffic on those routes.  That would be about 1 - 1.2 million passengers/year.

b. That will allow them to get upto 25 more international slots with bigger aircraft and better revenues.  They should be given more destinations abroad as compensation by the govt.

c. They should be allowed use of the HAL runway in case of an emergency in BIAL.  This for me can be a good bargaining point.  They can at the very least send domestic traffic temporarily to HAL and gain the goodwill of passengers.  No other city would be able to offer this facility if the need so arose.  Even international flights can land instead of being diverted elsewhere.

As you have the ear of the powers that be, my two cents :)

Srivathsa

 

 

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Devesh's picture

Glad to be on Praja

Hello Srivathsa

Thanks for the warm welcome, and the very thought provoking questions. I have fallen in love with the Praja, and the Praja that populates it. Very intellectually stimulating. Makes me pause and think.

I am very open natured, and do not take offense. If anything, I find, many people find me offensive and blunt to the point of undiplomatic arrogance.

I will try and answer your queries point by point, but at the outset, let me tell you. I am considered in politics a Libertarian. i.e. extremely small government. I am in full favour of privatisation, but dead against monopolies. I believe that I know how to earn and spend my money better than any bureaucrat, no matter how intelligent and capable they are.

I am in agreement with you on many many points. Most especially the grandiose expenditure plans of various Government agencies. More of our precious money is going to be spent on ancillaries to the airport, than on the airport itself. Somehow, Government, most especially in India, seems to believe that their progress is measured on how much they spend, not what solutions they actually achieve.

The government is already shifting a major DRDO test facility in Kolar at the request of BIAL. In my humble opinion, BIAL should be made to pay for the cost of the shift. I fear a similar fate awaits Yelahanka air base, and there the investment is in thousands of crores. The media is aware of it, yet, there is not a peep in the press.

Talking of the press, if you remember, on 25/Mar, many papers in Bangalore, carried an "interview" by Mr. Albert Brunner where he debunked "detractors" of BIAL. That "interview" was actually written completely by Mr. Brunner. Times of India even carried a challenge for readers to respond.

I wrote a response, which is detailed in my blog article http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/03/debunking-mr-brunners-debunks.html. Till today, it has not been carried.

HAL airport has been taken for granted by all, including us, as well as the Government. We have not forced Government to put a bus service in place, and this has delivered many a passenger in to the hands of the taxi mafia.

In re-negotiating, BIAL gets a multitude of benefits. They will loose an insignificant portion of their traffic, what they will loose is low profit ATR flights, what they gain is time slots for larger and more profitable jets, they get more time to stabilise their operations, they get access to a second airport and opportunity to build bridges, infrastructure is expensive, lets not forget HAL airport is worth over Rs. 1000~1500 crores today, and BIAL gets that one elusive thing all corporations strive for -- good PR and great coroporate governance.

Every industry body has a gamut of great people, and all of us focus on various issues. The Bangalore City Connect foundation is a gathering of all industry bodies, and the BTTI is just the first initiative. BMRCL is also on the radar screen, and push is being made there also.

If I can help it, I would even privatise the traffic police, and give the whole thing out on contract. If traffic law enforcement is tightened, the fines alone would pay for the entire Bangalore Traffic Police force, and then still have money left over to give to the city. Having said that, I have travelled by the Vajra and Airavat services and they are good. If you see the Wharton article that has been quoted here on Praja, I have said, that the first step to improvement of airports in India, is the privatisation of AAI. I know the people at AAI, they are good and capable. After BSNL was privatised, it has come out a leaner, meaner, and stronger organisation. This will happen at AAI also.

It distresses me that the whole commute thing has become a North Bangalore vs. South Bangalore issue. It is not. I lived for over 15 years in Dallas. To reach DFW airport, many parts of the metroplex required a 1 ~ 1.5 hour drive. It also explains why Dallas Love Field airport was re-activated and the Wright amendment repealed. Since it was right in the middle of town. Its a small airport, no fancy facilities, but very easy to get in to and out of, and right in the middle of town. Ideal for the business traveller on a 1 hour flight.

When I refer to capacity, I refer to runway capacity. We are accomodating people in Bangalore, and will tolerate quite a bit, so terminal capacity can be flexed. However runway capacity is finite. I made a detailed presentation at the Centre for Public Policy at IIM. Please see my article http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/03/real-capacity-of-bengaluru.html. I have used Mumbai, India's premier and most efficient airport (in terms of air traffic control and runway utilisation). The maximum capacity of BIA per runway is 15 million, which we will reach in 18~24 months. For too long, Bangalore economic growth has been stiffled by GOI not investing in HAL expansion. Why give up existing infrastructure and perpetuate the stiffling.

Another group of people we have completely overlooked are the workers at the airport. The rule of thumb is 1000 employees for every 1 million passengers. That implies 14,000 employees. For 14 million passengers, it translates to 39000 passengers daily, to and fro, and 28,000 employees to and fro. More than 2/3rds. What provisions are we making for them ? What about their families ? What is the infrastructure in terms of schools, provision shops, markets, playgrounds, housing, around BIAL. The closest is Yelahanka, 18 km away. Check my article http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/04/bengaluru-international-airport-cannot.html

Out of sight of the general population is cargo. Most Praja members are unaware, but 50% of Bangalore's GDP is sent by air cargo. BIAL has completely overlooked cargo. There is no cargo facilities.

I quote from my article http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/04/perils-of-pioneering-bangalores-loss-of.html

"I have been monitoring the Bangalore aviation scene for over 15 years now, with a close focus on air cargo. The average citizen of Bangalore, has very little appreciation on the vital role of air cargo in our daily lives. From fruits to flowers, from car parts to computers to cell phones, from gold to garments, over 50% of Bangalore's GDP is transported by air -- Rs. 50,000 Crore or US$10 Billion. The Indian Customs authorities collect almost Rs. 3,000 Crore per year in customs duties, despite the fact that Bangalore is the technological hub of India, with many importers enjoying "duty exempt" status. Globally, less than 6% of a product's cost is spent on logistics. In India it is over 15%. Given rampant inflation today, who amongst us would not like to see a reduction of 9% in our expenses ?
BIAL management has conveniently, completely "overlooked" the air cargo operations of Bengaluru International Airport. BIAL was to commence operations with two warehouses and a measly 300,000 tonnes per year capacity. Even this target is not achieved. One warehouse is up, the other is not. More importantly, there are no provisions for the Customs officers, and some last minute "accommodations" are being made. A Customs authority already stretched thin on manpower is now forced to operate from HAL airport in parallel to BIAL. There is no cargo village for Customs and Cargo agents' offices, and it will be 1.5~2 years before any permanent establishment is created. By comparison, Changi airport has 4 Cargo Agents "Megaplexes" which have a capacity of 3 million tonnes per year, and 180,000 tonnes in courier/express cargo. Even the small Penang airport, that I am writing this blog from, has a capacity of 360,000 tons. Right next to the airport is the Bayan Lepas semiconductor complex, home to all the major IC manufacturers. Shut Penang airport down, and world production of electronic goods will grind to a halt.
Industry in Bangalore is being denied the Freedom of flexibility and competition, and ultimately it is we Bangaloreans who will suffer as our city's economy is slowly strangled. Will Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh's statement "If Bangalore fails, India fails" come true ?
Consumers in Bangalore should take initiative and highlight the anti-competitive situation in the aviation sector, to the Competition Commission in India. While at it, we should force the quick adoption of the Airports Regulatory Authority Bill, drafted back in September 2007, which calls for the creating of a competitive regulatory authority."

 

Sorry to sign off abruptly, but I need to attend to my family now.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

No smoke, no mirrors, and definitely no budget airlines

Srivathsa


Due to lack of time, I cannot post a response. I will respond to you later. In fact believe it or not, we have no budget airline on the team.

People like to believe in consipiracy theories and I cannot help it. Our intention is purely from an infrastructure stand point and our data shows that BIAL will not have capacity.

Our intention is not to force anything on anybody, but to enable choice. Bangalore has less than 10% transit traffic. Even that is almost 100% by road connection (Mysore, Salem, Hassan, etc).

Purely due to demand imbalance, Bangalore is the most expensive city out of India for international flights. Therefore most of Mangalore traffic connects from Mumbai.

In fact in court, HAL just said "we are a GOI entity and we will follow GOI decision". We are trying to keep HAL airport open, without support from HAL!!!! We have a selfish intent -- We love Bangalore, and want maximum infrastructure for Bangalore.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
santsub's picture

No smoke no mirrors...

If Yelahanka air base is a problem in BIAL expansion - why did we not think about this before locating the airport?? this invokes another instance of poor poor planning and lack of vision. If BIA's Capacity is the problem then we possibly have problems with the whole plan.

I think in the first place we should have planned for an airport with a vision to handle 100 mi pax and atleast expandable to 4 parallel runways.. did they expect Bangalore to be what it was in the early 90s??

There is always a solution to workaround this Iam sure but at what and whos cost is the question. It would be nice if BIA and or all the stakeholders make any moves here after with consultations from every corner. Hope our new airport will not be a mockery.

s_yajaman's picture

Do I really have a choice even with HAL?

Devesh, 

Let's assume that for the purpose of discussion, short haul flights to Mangalore, Hubli and Chennai move to HAL.  Let's also assume that most airlines agree that it is a smart move given the travel times, costs, etc etc (anyone that does not is probably going to lose share on that sector).  I am making a number of assumptions - so stay with me.

What choice does the passenger really then have in terms of the airport? If I am planning to travel to one of these cities, what choice do I really have? 

How do you propose to overcome this situation if it arises? 

Srivathsa

 

 

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

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