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Short term fix - Lease out HAL airport to BIAL?

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Aviation
On the ever so hot HAL vs BIAL debate, I saw an interesting letter to editor column of TOI (Fri Mar 21) where author Narayan G sort of suggested this - Why not lease HAL airport to BIAL itself? That could be a short term fix till BBMP/state government improves connectivity. BIAL would get revenue from HAL as well as BIAL for sometime, hopefully that will give them enough revenues to keep them from going to courts over breach of contract. We would get better facilities at HAL airport. And since BIAL would want to gain efficiency of operations by consolidating all air traffic at BIA, they will keep pushing everyone on the connectivity issue and wouldn't want to hang on to HAL for ever.
Not the best arrangement, but who wants a legal entangement here that would ruin the already bad large PPP project execution reputation of our state.

Comments

narayan82's picture

why short term? Let this be

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why short term? Let this be a long term solution. Why do we need a Defence Sector Govt Dept. to run a public airport? In case any has TOI for Friday 21/03 pls see my letter on Pg5 - i stated exactly the same module!
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
silkboard's picture

I was qouting you Narayan

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I was referring to the same letter you wrote Narayan. Have edited the post to mention you.
narayan82's picture

thanks :)

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but you see no one wants to consider this as this is where politics enters. HAL will not give the PTB...and the defence ministry is not even likely intervene. And they are also going to have to give up Yelahanka. I hear the govt is giving them land near Kolar. I'm starting to miss a govt in the state though the last one left a very bad taste...
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

I had mentioned this much

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I had mentioned this much earlier.  The counterparties to the concession agreement (GoI, GoK, Siemens-L&T-Zurich Airport) can renegotiate a new CA where in HAL airport could be leased out to BIAL untill connectivity projects such as the Rail Link from BRV grounds in MG Road is complete in 2012 or so.
navshot's picture

business proposal?

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Has anyone tried to work out details of this business proposal? Using whatever little knowledge I have about business, here are some of the things to look for:

1. Profits and total costs of running BIA without HAL

2. Profits and total costs of running BIA with HAL as leased by BIAL

3. Profits and total costs of running BIA with HAL as run by HAL

If you leave out option 3,  for BIAL to even consider option 2, the net profit has to be same or better than option 1.

And using simple analogy, its more like - for a family, it maybe more efficient to optimize utilization of a single car rather than to buy/lease a second one. We'll not know till we work out all the details of costs and benefits objectively.

-- navshot

HAL vs BIAL

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navshot,
Here is a recent article about the business and economic aspect of HAL vs BIAL:
 
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/03/24/stories/2008032450560600.htm

 

navshot's picture

mcadambi, The report has

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mcadambi,

The report has details on HAL and BIAL as two stand-alone airports, but does not answer the crucial details of BIAL "with" HAL as leased by BIAL. BIAL has to pay out lease amount PLUS all the running costs of the HAL airport in order to maintain same/similar air traffic volume? And that is better (in terms of business) than BIAL stand-alone? I'm not quite sure how that can be.

-- navshot
narayan82's picture

Unless, there is some sort

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Unless, there is some sort of agreement which says BIAL doesnt pay rent for HAL airport untill traffic reaches say 20 Million Pax/Year. Obvious question - why would HAL do such a thing, well, in the interest of the public why else! its not an immideate profit making solution but in the long term it could be a very viable option.Coz BIAL will then have to invest less to expand its airport, can award more slots, and make optimum use of both airports.
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
navshot's picture

Narayan,

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Narayan,

That too assuming that makes business sense, right? We don't have data - break up of costs to run operations at each airport. If we have, maybe we can make some serious proposals. 

-- navshot
narayan82's picture

well I guess if it was a

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well I guess if it was a sensible proposal, then someone would have by now suggested it, and put an article in the papers, - maybe there is something we do not see/realise..
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
tsubba's picture

hal profits

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is it possible that hal's profits are due to imbalance of demand and supply. limited structure+limited quality and level of service + high demand = 650crores in profits? i think at bial it will normalize and we should see a more sensible number. but KF and AI want bangalore as a base. will HAL kill the possibility that Bangalore develops as a meaningful hub?
narayan82's picture

reality

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I think if you look at it - realistcally HAL will close. The hype has died down, no one is yelliing, even the papers have stopped reporting as often. May 11th will also give enough time to improve the roads. So i think its going to BIAL only...
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
navshot's picture

No HAL?

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Narayan,

I agree with you. Hyderabad has set an example and I guess because of that the media and people have kind of given up.

-- navshot
narayan82's picture

hotel...

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anyone have any updates on the airport hotel? its supposed to open in nov. but i dont event see ground works happening...
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
narayan82's picture

anyone coming for the TOI

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anyone coming for the TOI unlock bangalore panel discussion tomo?
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
santsub's picture

Hotel - good point Narayan

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What happened to the hotel? HIA was building it along with the airport but BIA never even mentioned it. The onlything I have ever seen is the prototype pictures :) - so is the hotel coming up? I am sure if they have nothing started Nov 09 is the answer not Nov 08.

 

narayan82's picture

The Hotel

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Hotel is coming up. There delays with the hotel due to some hight problems. It will be up 18 months from Jan 2008.
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
bialterminal's picture

Re: HAL may be re-opened

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Smile Seems to be yet another populist measure. Are we missing the forest for the trees? Seems so.
sandeepckeerthi's picture

Are we getting this wrong..?

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So folks want to re-open the HAL airport.., this includes many really public spirited and intelligent people. Why..?

Connectivity: Whose fault? Mostly GoK and to an extent GoI

Who is bearing the anger of the public..? The more vulnerable BIAL

We always seem to take the easy path out.

We have seen demostrations to keep the HAL airport open. Not seen one yet to start the suburban train service on the existing Bengaluru - Devanahalli rail route..

vvr's picture

What about the ramifications for foreign investors?

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 I posted the following in a different forum a couple of weeks ago and have been waiting for at least one person from the "Re-open HAL" camp to respond.

I am curious. Assuming that HAL airport is allowed to reopen, there is bound to be some trepidation in the minds of foreign investors about doing business here. Has anyone (the business chambers, GoK etc.) done some serious scenario planning around potential negative sentiments in the investment community? If so, what is the consensus?  

I only have two data points here.  

The first one is in the public domain, an article written by Dr. Krishnadas Nair (former chairman of HAL) in the TOI. While he talks about the benefit of revenue flowing into HAL (the corporation) from continued commercial operations at the airport, he also argues strongly against going back on any contracts since this will affect future business prospects of HAL (which is beginning to be seen as  global supplier of aircraft parts) and other companies in India.  

The second data point is one that I picked up last week in Northern India. My hobby is to provide management development and strategic planning coaching to a large US investment group in Punjab that has plans to invest 100s of millions of $ in real estate development. This group invested in the largest software development center in the North outside the NCR in the early 2000. The first real estate project has already taken off. The chairman of this group is so frustrated with the way we play fast and loose with contracts and the law ( for example, he has lost a lot of money due to project rework because of how SEZ rules are made and changed  everyday). I got an earful from him for an entire day on this topic. I found this rather troubling. Believe me, people like this guy  keep their ears to the ground  and know what is going on in Bangalore vis a vis the airport. Even with the support of successive CMs and Finance Ministers of Punjab, he feels that our inconsistency in business practices makes it difficult to run his business.  

We may feel perfectly justified in taking certain steps by saying "the people want it" (this is a whole different debate), the investors are also fully justified in voting with their wallets. I am not saying that this will become imminent should HAL airport reopen but a full characterization by some agency that is bigger than just the local chamber of commerce (since this could have nation-wide implications)

silkboard's picture

Must honor contracts

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We are masters at keeping things hanging or going back on them. Courts give suspended sentences. Elected legislative assemblies are kept in suspended animation. New governments come over and scrap previous government's policies and programs. You are only adding business contracts to this list :)

(There was a very well written article by Santosh Desai of 'chitty chitty bang bang' fame around this in ToI).

BIAL could be made to re-negotiate. Facts can be brought about to say that BIAL can't take more than 12 mill passengers merely by building a new and non factory-look PTB. And these can be used to make them renegotiate. But we can't unilaterally break signed contracts with them or anyone else.

I have another angle (based on personal hear-say) to add to this. Contracts with businesses etc are scrapped at will because of one other reason. There always are things that are not done right when framing and getting these 'contracts' in the first place. A simple threat to 'expose' is all it takes to make the other party walk away or re-negotiate.

idontspam's picture

Cos save travel costs

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The companies save a good chunk of money on their travel budgets by keeping HAL open. It helps them especially in these market conditions. This has nothing to do with general public. Let us hope Devesh's sources are wrong.

idontspam's picture

Complaining too much?

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Faraway airports fly by me
narayan82's picture

Hope...

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With the drop in passenger levels, why should capacity be an issue? Would Arlines be willing to fly to two airports in the same city (ground handling costs)? I remember even Mr Mallya denying the oppurtunity to use two airports. Especially now that he is starting international flights. Numbers seem to be going in all directions and have now lost faith/belief in numbers like PTB Capacity and Runway usage! Lastly if connectivity is the issue why not address the larger issues. Why not address the issue of civic driving sense. Why not implement ideas such as BRTS. These will not only help improve connectivity but also solve a lot of other problems in Bangalore. Bringing the airport closer again, is just a temporary solution (or maybe not even one.) Its more a "feel good" solution that makes us benign to the macro level causes.
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Photoyogi's picture

Re: Hope

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Narayan, I second your views mentioned and agree 100% with the fact that it would be a temporary solution if we had HAL open only to address the capacity issue. Just to clarify my stand, the fact that the *no other commercial airport within 150 KM* clause in the contract that BIAL has in its favour is plain and simple monopolistic, am against that. Anyway market dynamics should be allowed to rule. -- Praveen Sundaram AkA PhotoYogi

-- PhotoYogi

sandeepckeerthi's picture

RE: Must honor contracts

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Exactly the point I was making. We are just making it very difficult for investors in India and Karnataka. Check out this interview with Mr.Brunner about his message for investors..

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5d7Gmd6oDI

And we are trying to attract investors for the Bangalore Thermal Power plant, Industrial corridor from Bengaluru to Bidar, Shimoga airport, etc, etc..

 

Devesh's picture

Honouring Contracts ..... Albert Brunner interview

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Sandeep,

I have never been impressed by this new girl Karishma Goswami of BBC.  She has never been positive about India. Even during the Sensex problems she was trying to over-sensationalise and emphasize the negatives.

A regular watcher, I have stopped watching India Business Report, becuase of these subtle mis-informations.

She tries to blame the "Indian Government Worker run" ATC for the 6 week delay in the opening of BIAL. It is well known that the delay for the start of the ATC was that the terminal building was not ready in time, and due to ICAO mandated 1000 hour "hot standby" the opening was delayed. The delivery of the complete ATC building and anciallary facilities was BIAL responsibility, and nowhere in the report, is that fact revealed.

In fact BIAL was so concerned about safety, that it tried pressuring MoCA to allow them to start by using HAL ATC while its own ATC was being commissioned.

Even today, the Glide slope alignment at BIAL is off, and work is being done to correct it.

Coming to the issue of honouring contracts, I have made this argument before and will not delve in to it again. My Blog has articles on the contract issue. http://aviation.deveshaga...

While I support honouring an agreement, we should place emphasis on public interest and not put too much emphasis on the "honouring contract" bogey.

Simple facts, here there is a compelling case of capacity. Like it or not, Foreign investors go where the money is forget the fact that the country is autocratic like Russia or communist like China. In India there is still rule of law.

China forced McDonald's to close it's biggest store in Tiananmen Square and shift, for absolutely no reason at all. McDonald's still operates in China. Enron tried to overcharge India, and the project fell through. Despite this BIAL still came and invested. 

For India to be scared of a Rs. 350 Cr investment is nonsense. A single real estate developer in Bangalore has the ability to pay BIAL their investment and even 100% as interest for last 3 years, take over the airport.

It's time, India took itself more seriously. To quote the Visa ad. "Hum main hai Shakti anmol".

It's these politicians who have taken hefty kickbacks that are making us believe that we are less than we actually are.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

Sandeep ........ Railways

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"We have seen demostrations to keep the HAL airport open. Not seen one yet to start the suburban train service on the existing Bengaluru - Devanahalli rail route.."

We (Industry and GoK) have tried and failed. Railways says the track up till Yelahankha is too congested, and their interest is in long distance services.

But, all hope is not lost. You start the demonstration. Tell us where to show up and we all will.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
tsubba's picture

Rashomon

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She tries to blame the "Indian Government Worker run" ATC for the 6 week delay in the opening of BIAL. It is well known that the delay for the start of the ATC was that the terminal building was not ready in time, and due to ICAO mandated 1000 hour "hot standby" the opening was delayed. The delivery of the complete ATC building and anciallary facilities was BIAL responsibility, and nowhere in the report, is that fact revealed.
aren't both episodes(ATC and ICAO) part of the same story? aren't both true? nobody doodh ka dhula right?
sandeepckeerthi's picture

RE: Sandeep ........ Railways

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Devesh,

Thank you  for the update on the efforts made by the GoK and the Industry for using the existing track to Devanahalli. I had not seen this information in any periodicals or newspapers and I do read a number of them daily. In fact, SB and I were trying to find who the contact people at SWR were so that we can approach them regarding this possibility. Now, we know you can tell us who to approach at SWR. Please tell us who you spoke to. The information I dug up today says:

Mr. Praveen Kumar, General Manager of SWR

Mr. Mahesh Mangal, Bangalore Divisional Railway Manager

 

Are these the right people..? 

 

Now, if SWR said they have congestion issues until Yelhanka, they have a point. But, not interested in Intra city travel is something that we cannot accept. Not with the price of crude at what it is, global warming, pollution, etc. SWR and it's tracks are national assets that we need to use more optimally. 

 

Now, please check out the map of the London Underground system at this link: http://www.afn.org/~alplatt/tube.html

Many of these routes use rail tracks that are also used to connect to other cities.We essentially need to do something smart like using better signalling, exchange of tracks at specific areas of congestion by two laning the tracks, build elevated tracks on available land, etc. We can also try to move platforms for inter city travel to Yeshwanthpur (for west bound trains), Yelhanka (to north bound trains), etc. With the suburban trains in place along with the metro, it may turn out that the time to get home from Yeshwantpur or Yelhanka or vice versa may be shorter then what it is now.  All these suggestions are from an enthusiastic non-railway / metro-engineering person and may need quite a few modifications by the respective folks at SWR / metro. But, since you say hope is not lost even after speaking to the SWR folks, I feel there is something that can be done here and that is the silver lining. 

 

Regarding organizing the demonstration, how I wish I could. But, I am based in London presently and doing ground work like seeking police permission, organizing security, etc cannot be done from here. But, I am more than willing to do all I can from here like publicizing the event through emails, art work for banners, etc if somebody can initiate this in Bengaluru. 

sandeepckeerthi's picture

RE: Honouring Contracts ..... Albert Brunner interview

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Devesh,

I was referring to Mr.Brunner's point about it being very diffcult for investors in India and not to what the BBC anchor said in that bulletin.

Now, about the "honouring contracts":

I agree with what you have written in your blog. But some points you made in your submission above in Praja, I wish to engage you.

Yes, public convenience is of paramount importance. Not just short term, but also mid and long term convenience.  Rs.350 cr is not a huge amount for a real estate agent, but, what about the message this gives to folks who may be bringing in Rs.5,000 cr or more..? In spite of this message, if investors (Indian and foreign) still come in, will their speed, cost and effeciency be optimal. It is simple.., more the risk, more the cost of the money. Now, if this leads to slower investments, can we afford to grow any slower than what we are growing now..? Remember we need around 250,000 cr for the linking of rivers, metros in various cities, 4 laning of all highways, production of nuclear power, etc. 

Let us (through our government) show our "Anmol shakti" by delivering our part of the deal (the connectivity) and not just by re-negotiating the deal. Let us make our government negotiate with the land owners protesting the expressway to the airport; let us make our government to approach SWR constructively with plans for the suburban trains. 

Also, the contract cannot certainly be a bogey (Webster says bogey is: A source of fear, perplexity or harassment). It can only be a framework to be optimized.

Having said all this, I again reiterate that I agree with what you have mentioned in your blog, HAL airport seems a good idea (with all that huge spurt in air traffice) for small planes to Hubli, Mangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, etc. It will also keep the low cost airlines (if they think it is viable to operate from 2 airports) who are contributing to the economical growth of our country and also in opening new vistas for the small traders and businessmen in these cities (But, this may need examination of the fact that using a low cost airline to Chennai / Mumbai and then a International flight from there may take away business from BIAL). You have also rightly brought out in your blog that BIAL can still make a healthy profit in partnership or outside a partnership with HAL.  

Should we not go to BIAL with these positive intentions rather than re-negotiate because of connectivity (GoK fault that can be fixed through the suburbun /metro trains) and capacity (which BIAL is saying it will fix in 8 months)..? This would give the right message to investors and help in terms of public convenience too.

Niranjana's picture

So if some one flies into

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So if some one flies into HAl from Hubli or some other place, he has to then commute all the way to BIAL to catch his international flight (for ex). Instead he could fly to Chennai from HAL (more convinient). So only LCCs fly from HAL, but can very effectively take away business from BIA. Which business would allow that? How will it help Bangalore get a world class airport in the future? Reopening HAL is a short term solution of no benefit to B'lore in the long term, IMO.

santsub's picture

HAL Reopening

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In my opinion HAL should not be reopened. This will not serve the purpose. If it is reopened for 3 years then there will be pressure to keep it open after 3 years even if BIA completes all its construction obligations. As a matter of fact it can dampen the growth of the city in particular and state in general and thats not what we want for Bangalore. Bangalore already has suffered a lot of loss to other cities because of such dramas now and then.

Like Sandeep says why not show our spirit in building great connectivity through expressways and SWR extensions to BIA and other parts of the cities and help the airport achieve its full potential. Also GoK can put pressure on the airport builders to make it a worldclass structure and expand quickly. I feel like Niranjana says who will fly in to HAL from Mysore or Mangalore or Hubli and then take a bus to BIA for an international Flight? Reopening HAL is definitely not in the interest of Karnataka or Bangalore.

bialterminal's picture

Re: Hope - photoyogi

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photoyogi,

I read your post above Smile. Please help me understand one thing, how is it that this "monopolism" has suddenly surfaced after the appearence of BIA on Bangalore's horizon when in fact we have been used to state monopolism for the past 60 odd years?  Please help me/us understand? I have raised this question before whenever the "M" word has come up. This is not to get into an unproductive argument but a real effort to understand the thought process behind that reasoning given the following facts that we under a failed inefficient monopoly where - 1) we get sewage mixed drinking water (http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/29/stories/2008012961220300.htm) 2) pathetic law enforcement 3) unreliable power 4) barely adequate public transport (to give credit this has improved though but not enough) 5) back breaking roads which can break even the best of military vehicles perhaps...the list can go on. So, how is it that infrastructure (BIA) that serves a miniscule amount of people in compared to the population using the above basic infrastructures listed now raises the Monopoly threat?

Ok, let's go by your point of view...fine, let's say we shouldn't have a monopolistic airport. If you feel that is really needed and that market forces should prevail then I urge you to be more realistic; perhaps this approach should be tried ->

1) lease out HAL to another consortium without any govt involvment whatsoever other than security & ATC. To give a level playing field, the current terminal in HAL should be demolished so that the new consortium inheriting HAL must build a good PTB from scratch.

If demolition is not possible then the current consortium of BIA must be compensated for at least the expenditure on the PTB after which a fresh bidding must occur for  running and developing BIA (in which case basically each of the 2 different consortia are getting a single runway along with a passenger building) the same time that the HAL bidding is going on. 

2) No govt participation in the consortium. So basically no govt agencies in the consortium of the 2 airports.

3) The land will be leased free to the consortia. But, in return, the govt should be given a royalty proportional to the business they generate.

4) Lift all restrictions on what aircraft can fly, which airline can fly and to which destinations (both international and national).

Then let's see how the market forces prevail. A stark reality is that Bangalore does not have the traffic for 2 airports and the distance factor should have been thought of when Devenahalli was chosen around 1997. We can take the discussion offline if you feel we can exchange more views on that. One of the factors that made the Tatas walk out was the traffic sharing (they did not find 2 airports viable) in addition to delays in getting clearence. Also, regarding the CA being in BIALs favour, the 150km rule was negotiated as per guidelines worked out by MoCA per the 1997 civil aviation act. Please read the second bullet in (civilaviation.nic.in/moca/Procdures%20guidelines.pdf) carefully, the decision to close HAL would have been clearly spelt out before even inviting the tenders. The 150km rule has of course changed since then with the latest aviation rule but still doesn't alter the justification for the number of airports.

Finally another option is available - dissolve BIAL and let BIA and HAL revert back to AAI control. That way folks who do not want a monopoly will have a duopoly and they will not have to pay UDF at either airports Wink.

So, please let me know your thoughts.

Uma_blr's picture

Idealism and Politics

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I agree with you Photoygoi, wish the politicians would raise above their personal interests and look at the long term success of Bangalore. I would say, in ten years time, we might require two airports, provided the  Industry growth continues to stay at the same level. Right now, most of the income is from IT industry, I wonder what are the projections by the IT pandits on the growth front. However at this stage, one has to ask the question, would AAI or HAL administered OLD airport would be worth it or should the government put pressure on BIAL to hasten the construction of the rest of the 70 % of the airport, like they did the trumpet flyover.  Letting AAI control the airport would only lead to strikes and bandhs affecting day to day life at the whims and fancies of AAI staff. Like any other growing economy, only privatisation would increase efficiency and of course with proper monitoring of MONOPOLY miss use at the cost of the consumers.
Photoyogi's picture

BIAL's 150 KM Airspace Exclusivity

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bialterminal, Thanks for your response will go thru the docs / links you have given and reply. Meanwhile please go thru this link http://photoyogi.com/CA_B... My reason to believe that this is monopolistic is thanks to these lines on Page 22 "5.2 Exclusivity 5.2.1 International No new or existing airport shall be permitted by GoI to be developed as, or improved or upgraded into, an international Airport within an aerial distance of 150 kilometres of the Airport before the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Airport Opening Date.
5.2.2  Domestic
No new or existing airport (except for Mysore and Hassan airports) shall be
permitted by GoI to be developed as, or improved or upgraded into,  a Domestic Airport within an aerial distance of 150 kilometres of the Airport before the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Airport Opening Date"
I am not a doubting thomas, but tell me are you comfortable with the fact, that for 150KM "RADIUS" of commercial airspace around Bangalore is controlled by ONE party for the next 25 years? I Personally am not for re-opening HAL airport, but with this clause no-other-party can operate another airport?? Which is why i said Market Dynamics should be allowed to rule by which if the situation demands in the next few years another half decent airport can come up possibly in Hosur? Going by your argument, BIAL should run that Hosur airport too. -- Praveen Sundaram AkA PhotoYogi

-- PhotoYogi

Photoyogi's picture

Bialterminal – some questions.

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Bialterminal, I went thru your links and put some thought, here are some questions.

http://civilaviation.nic.in/moca/Procdures%20guidelines.pdfdoc created 9/12/2005, modified 9/13/2007

civilaviation.nic.in/bial/CA_BIAL.%20signed.05.07.2004.pdf
now this document has been removed (don’t know why!) but I have a
copy saved on my desktop that I have uploaded here http://photoyogi.com/CA_BIAL.signed.05.07.2004.pdf -- creation & modification dates 24/5/2006

Please note that the date of creation/ modification of this
document the CA_BIAL document seem to predate the guidelines (modified) document?? Just makes me wonder why that happened. – is surprising and strange huh!

Regarding your comment on the 150KM rule “was negotiated as per guidelines” is not some thing I will buy, the negotiation meant that it was made to suite the demand
that BIAL have control of the commercial airspace which is what am not happy
with.

I do not want to comment on BWSSB and Public Transport as that started off in my grandfathers times and they had to do some thing about it.

Wrt BIAL, its in my times and I feel we can react now and
get things fixed before its too late?
Just occurred to me, BWSSB and BMTC can be subjected to RTI,
why not BIAL ?

Reiterating my stand here:

a) The BWSSB and Public Transport issues cannot be ignored
but that’s another thread.

b) BIAL should continue and I am not really favoring the re-opening
of HAL airport for commercial traffic.

c) The control of commercial airspace in one parties hands is not a great thing to have.

--
Praveen Sundaram
AkA
PhotoYogi

-- PhotoYogi

Devesh's picture

BIALTerminal - some observations on the MoCA document

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Please read the second bullet in (http://civilaviation.nic.in/moca/Procdures%20guidelines.pdf) carefully, the decision to close HAL would have been clearly spelt out before even inviting the tenders. The 150km rule has of course changed since then with the latest aviation rule but still doesn't alter the justification for the number of airports

Please see the document. The 150km radius applies for another Greenfield airport not an existing one.

See clause 7 of the same document. "In case, the existing airport is decided to be closed down, the unrecovered investments of AAI in the existing airport will have to be compensated by a suitable mechanism such as share in the concession fee to be given by the greenfield operator to the Govt. The Government shall, in general, promote competition in setting up a greenfield airport in addition to the existing one."

Just for your information, the original tender, nor the original offer of BIAL, called for closure of HAL airport. This came up only during "negotiations" after BIAL was selected.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

AAI Report - BIAL only 9.78 million capacity - Wants HAL re-open

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http://www.livemint.com/2...

AAI team wants Bangalore’s old airport reopened, ministry wary
Airports Authority of India says the new airport has 10% less capacity than the old HAL airport
K. Raghu and Tarun Shukla
Bangalore/New Delhi: The controversy surrounding the closure of Bangalore’s old airport after the new one run by Bangalore International Airport Ltd, or Bial, opened in May, has taken another turn with a June study by airport regulator Airports Authority of India, or AAI, saying that the new airport has been built to handle 9.78 million passengers, at least 10% less than the capacity of the old HAL airport.
Constant criticism: An inside view of the new airport in Bangalore. (Photo: Hemant Mishra/Mint)
Constant criticism: An inside view of the new airport in Bangalore. (Photo: Hemant Mishra/Mint)
The AAI study also recommends that the old airport, run by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, or HAL, reopen until such time additional capacity is added at the new airport on Bangalore’s outskirts. The closure of the old airport is being challenged in court by a citizens’ group.
The study hasn’t been released to the public and the details in it have not been corroborated by Bial, the new airport’s developer. The HAL airport was closed after the new one opened in keeping with a 2004 agreement between the Union government and the developer of the new airport.
The old city airport has been shuttered since the night of 23 May, hours before the new airport, backed by private investors, became operational. Citizens groups and top companies in Bangalore have since lobbied for reopening the old airport complaining commute to the new airport takes up to two hours from the city and the Union government is encouraging a private monopoly by letting it be the only one open in the city.
An AAI team, which undertook the study between 16 June and 18 June, says in its report that the airport has lesser capacity than the 11.4 million passengers claimed by Bial. A spokeswoman for Bial said the firm did not want to comment immediately on the subject.
Last week, an AAI official had confirmed the existence of this report to Mint but declined to discuss its contents. The official could not be reached for comment Tuesday evening.
“In view of the saturation of passenger terminal, import cargo, apron and runway, it is recommended that, in meantime, the existing HAL airport may be permitted to operate until the time of commissioning of proposed additional capacity at the new Bangalore international airport,” the AAI study, which has been reviewed by Mint, recommended. The study was undertaken by a team led by AAI’s member, planning, V.P. Agrawal.
Last Thursday, on the eve of a Karnataka high court hearing on a petition to reopen the city airport, the AAI official said that the regulator would ask the court for two weeks to submit a study on capacity at the new Bangalore airport.
The official, who did not want to be identified, said AAI had asked Bial, the operator of the new airport, to “give us the actual details like floor area of the terminal building, etc.” to complete the study.
That court hearing was adjourned to 22 August.
On Tuesday, a senior official at the Union ministry of civil aviation said the AAI committee had over-extended its mandate in its study. “They were asked to assess the demand and supply situation at the Bial airport and how to address it. They were not asked to make any recommendations (however),” this official said, asking be not be identified. “They have to involve Bial authorities for statistics.”
In May, the Karnataka high court had directed AAI and the Union government to assess the capacity of the new airport.
raghu.k@livemint.com

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
s_yajaman's picture

Almost fell off at this farce

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This is a farce  to put it mildly.  I wonder why AAI's credibility is so high on matters pertaining to airport terminals considering what they have been dishing out so far.

To say that BIAL's capacity is lower than HAL's sounds (even to a layman like me) like an outright lie.  Isn't there some conflict of interest here to ask the incumbent to do an audit on a competitor?

So HAL's capacity is about 11million.  Of course it is, given that 10-11 million have been passing through it last year.  Does each peak passenger have 25m2?  I doubt it.  What about check-in counters, security, parking, taxis for arriving passengers, coach facilities.  No mention of that.

I went to the IGI Domestic terminal the other day to catch a flight back.  My apartment looks bigger!  But it handles more than 10 million domestic for sure.  I don't think it was bigger than BIAL.

This whole episode is disgusting to put it mildly.  We still seem to have a deep rooted suspicion of foreign companies for all our liberal talk and economic .  "They" the new East India Company, have come to loot us. 

"They" did not choose the location.  It was given to them by our humble farmers.  The aviation ministry was reviewing this project all along.  It means Praful Patel and team have failed to ensure that adequate capacity was built.  The bureaucrat who was monitoring this project should be sacked. 

I think it finally boils down to this.  I don't want to travel the extra 30 km/35 mins to reach the new airport.  Now I suddenly see all the hidden virtues of that run-down airport.  Please can I use it again?

Srivathsa

P.S. Devesh - nothing personal in this

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Devesh's picture

Livemint's Gaffe

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Even I laughed at the headline.

Instead of saying BIAL is 10% less than demand, they have put HAL.HAL capacity is 8 million.

I understand that BIAL's capacity weakness is the security hold area. Apparently due to the excessive dedication to retail (30% compared to IATA recommendation of 15% for a standard terminal).

However, from what I have heard, BIAL management is not listening to any of their partners especially GoI and GoK about capacity concerns. I do not know whether it is due to mood or investment money. 

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
amaku's picture

That does it

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That headline alone does it for me -- of all the bald faced lies! As of this moment, I will no longer believe a single word emanating from that organization.

--amaku

bialterminal's picture

I have been rushed...

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to the hospital for -> A vision test followed by a pshychiatric exam !!!! after reading this report following shock.

Now jokes apart, I am examining the option of proceeding with legal action in the supreme court of the decision to allow AAI to do any kind of study considering their incompetence and most importantly CONFLICT of INTEREST. When I had termed AAI incompetent in SSC I was told I was being unfair :-). Obviously AAI will bat against BIA.  Guys, any idea how we can do this..the legal action?

bialterminal's picture

re: almost fell of at this farce

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s_yajaman,

about your observation -  "It means Praful Patel and team have failed to ensure that adequate capacity was built.  The bureaucrat who was monitoring this project should be sacked."

Wel....you will have to sack the entire political establishment!!!! & please remember we don't have space in our jails (there is "congestion"..which is being resolved by expansion with Pulic-Private Partnership)!! I will not be surprised if HAL opens and I guarantee you that the blame game will go on for years and there will be this famous line ..."look BIAL are liars, because of them we had to open HAL, now they are not putting in money for expansion, now we have "congestion" in BIA..hence we will need a 3rd airport".  That is the reasoning in our country. Feel free to read a piece of reality in my posting in SSC -> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=23007024&postcount=292. These are the very facts that I have highlighted in numerous postings both in SSC and praja. The article I have referred to in that posting is awesome reality with hard facts coming from an aviation professional. In fact I am all for temporarily closing BIAL if needed and reopening HAL in the proper hands just to prove a point and awaken the country on the scam going on. Whether it is BIA or HAL my goal is ->  1 efficent airport before opening another. HAL's chance came and went. Now aggressively demand results from whoever runs BIA. We also need to aggressively push towards modenization of antiquated airtraffic control rules, procedures & regulations.  

 

s_yajaman's picture

@BIAL Terminal

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I know - it was simply my frustration at the nonsense.  As someone who has used BIAL domestic at least 15 times, I have not found it to be overcrowded even at peak hours - 6:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m.  Of course my expectations might be fairly low given that I use Bangalore City Station as well for a lot of my travel!

In fact when I took the 7:25 a.m. flight to Delhi last week, half the seats were empty.  When I landed on Saturday, half the conveyor belts were not in use.  There were just 10 aircraft parked (I counted them!).

A supply chain element's capacity cannot be measured simply in terms of space.  E.g. what is the capacity of MG Road - it is about 2 km long maybe 30m wide. So 60,000 m2.  One PCU takes 6m2 - double that for gaps and clearance.  So MG Road has a capacity of 5000 cars?  Is it a parking lot?

What we are interested is in the throughput - which is determined by how quickly the cars can cover MG Road and how many lanes are operational - which in turn is determined by how streamlined the traffic flow is, how many signals there are, etc.  If cars can keep a steady 30 kmph then you could have a throughput of 2500 cars/hr.  You get the point.

The other thing they need to revisit is the traffic forecast.  Are we really going to see 15 million next year?

Srivathsa

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

bialterminal's picture

re: Bialterminal - some questions

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"Regarding your comment on the 150KM rule “was negotiated as per guidelines” is not some thing I will buy, the negotiation meant that it was made to suite the demand
that BIAL have control of the commercial airspace which is what am not happy
with."

SmileAbout your observations above...fair enough..you have stated your view point that you are not comfortable and is not something you will buy..and I respect that. The only reason I brought up BWSSB etc. is due to the monpoly isssue brought up regarding this whole 150km issue. Whether you buy the "negotiated as per guidelines" or not the fact is the Delhi, Hyderabad & Bangalore contracts were having the same issue and were negotiated with the same guidlines in mind. I am not siding any party here but having the aviation knowledge (like others) that I have it pains me to see the state of airports in our country where people think that building our way out of congestion is the solution. Please let me clarify something, at this nascent stage of massive aviation platform development airports are not commodities for competition within a city with such low volumes of traffic and will be a huge waste of public resources without tackling the fundamentals first (fundamentals of air traffic managment, airport design & airport operations management). Where we need competition is basic infrastructure and that is why I mentioned it. But, I definitely agree that we should have competition in the form of Delhi vs Bangalore vs Chennai vs Hyderabad in terms of all airports should not be given to the same developer to develop AND Bangalore should compete to have the best airport among these cities. 

Let's do one thing, let the state take control of all the airports (both green field and whatever), no 150km or 10km rules whatever. Let AAI do the studies and do whatever they want; that way we need not waste time and resources inviting somebody from outside in the first place then doing the blame game as is going on now.

Otherwise, if you still feel that competition is needed in Banaglore between 2 airports..like I said before... then let's have BIA and HAL be handled by 2 separate private consortiums without any state involvment. The truth will come out then.

To me this whole saga stinks of a story I have heard quite often and experienced recently in Bangalore - You get into an auto with the promise of being taken to a destination at a fair price..in the middle ..either the auto mysteriously develops a problem and you have to get out...or the fare increases dramatically and the auto fellow threatens not to continue to the destination :-)". This has happened to a lot of my college friends in the 90s who used to get off at Majestic and take an auto to the airport. In may this happened to us (auto broke down and he leaves us in the middle half way to the destination demanding 80% of the fare). 

For all I know, BIAL, GMR, DIAL ..all these parties did negitiations in their best interest during which they gave detailed project plans to the Govt. The Govt. had every right to say no to their conditions. Moreover, the 150km rule was brought it by the govt to make the stage more attractive for investments to come in. I have articles about these in my archive and will furnish it you shortly.

silkboard's picture

can we do this?

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bialterminal - sent you a PM, not sure if you saw it. Do you want to join hands with some other members and get important documents AAI has got from BIAL. I am guessing there would be a project proposal. There would be some accounting/financial report type doc as well showing details of investments made by BIAL. I will take a minimum of two applications, 1) to get a list of documents they have from BIAL 2) then to ask for a copy of some of these.

Devesh - can you help us with some specifics. will this be to MoCA or AAI?

Syed - do you want to join hands with bialterminal?

Any journalists reading this, could you send a PM (private message) or contact message to bialterminal if you want to help or join in.

[I am booked with some other Praja stuff, so can't join in myself right now, thats why leaving this comment]

kbsyed61's picture

Sure, I may file an RTI application with AAI!

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Guys,

 I am happy to file the RTI applications with AAI, but I am apprehensible about answers  from AAI, given the past exeperience.

 Also I would suggest to setup a meeting with Mr. Brunner and see if diploamcy can help to get the details of investment made public. 

 I am right now in LA, once back in Maryland, I will start working on this.

 Syed 

bialterminal's picture

did file one, caught in a loop though

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I did file an RTI through the embassy here earlier this month since I am currently based out of the country. I am kind of caught in a loop since MoCA and MoD (whom I talked to over the phone) asked me to file the RTI through the embassy. The embassy in turn wants me to file it directly.

http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rtirequesttoembassy001cn0.jpg

For security and privacy reasons I have taken off my private data that was on the letter that came to me from the embassy. I have dispatched a reworded letter to MoCA and Mod. This RTI request was initially prompted by the 2nd runway drama because I was totally stunned on the flip flop on the 2nd runway given the fact that an NOC was issued way back then. I am awaiting their reply. Here is the exact wording of my latest letter (the only difference from the original being that I have added the fact that the embassy has asked me to file the application directly with MoCA and MoD). -

------------------------------------------------------------- 

To,

 

The Public Information Officers

Ministry Of Civil Aviation and Ministry Of Defence 

Govt. Of  India

  

Subj: Information under RTI Act 2005 about NOC for the new

          Bangalore  International Airport

 

Dear Sirs,

 

            Under the provisions for the RTI act 2005, I request your ministries to kindly provide me with information regarding some aspects of the NOC (No Objection Certificate) issued by the Ministry Of Defence to the new Bangalore International Airport (BIA) at Devanahalli.

 

1)      On what basis was the NOC provided to BIA? Was it provided after examining the detailed master plan indicating the provision of 2 runways for the airport as per the current publicly available master plan?

2)      What documents were examined by the Ministry Of Defence before granting the NOC?

3)      I request that a copy of the NOC be provided to me at the address detailed in the beginning of this letter.

4)      I also request that copies of all the documents submitted by BIAL that were examined by the Ministry Of  Defence before issuing a no objection certificate be provided to me from the records of the Ministry Of Civil Aviation (or  Ministry Of  Defence).

5)      I also request a copy of the NOC document that was issued to the new airport.

 

I was unable to obtain this information from the Embassy of India, Washington D.C. Enclosed is a copy from them asking me to address the query to you directly.

   

Sincerely

------------------------------------

bialterminal's picture

devesh & photoyogi

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Hi devesh & photoyogi,

This is in response to your postings. I don't deny that negotiations where done by BIAL in their favour keeping their interests in mind (for that matter GHIAL,DIAL..please allow me to expand and bring in these 2 to understand the issue as whole). In fact let's say, I had a free run and was bidding for a new airport in Bangalore in the absence of any policies or guidelines laid down by MoCA, I would ask for conditions more advantageous like for example - no new airport within 300kms or say in south india or say no major international airport in Karnataka and so on.

Well, the government could have easily said - we are not going to close HAL, our requirement is for a second alternative airport - so whoever wants to can bid for Devanahalli & construct - but the govt. did not. So my question is WHY BLAME the private developer of a greenfield airport? How about first questioning MoCa about where they came up with such policies and on what basis?

To understand this whole issue of where the 150km issue came up from we need to think at a National level and see the same 150km issue with DIAL,BIAL,GHIAL (unless they conspired and came up with this thing :-)). And devesh, the 150km radius does apply to existing airports as well as green field airports, I again would like to bring attention to those 2 bullets (if it helps please read the 2nd one before reading the 1st one):

  • A greenfield airport may be permitted were and existing airport is unable to meet the projected requirements of traffic or a new focal point of traffic emerges with sufficient viability. It can be allowed both as a replacement for an existing airport or for simultaneous operation. This aspect will have to be clearly spelt out in the notice inviting tenders.
  • No greenfield airport will normally be allowed within an aerial distance of 150kilometers of an existing airport in the same city or close vicinity. Where it is allowed as a second airport in the same city or close vicinity, the parameters

Note :- Yes, I know, the policies have changed now ..but please read on.

Now, my whole point of all this argument(please don't mistake me:-), I don't want to make this counterproductive or hammer my views...I am calling a spade a spade)..this whole issue of 150km radius, closing down or keeping existing ones etc. are based in flawed flip flopping policies at a National level to a large extent. My view point is whatever negotiations were done were done keeping the above policy/ guideline/ framework. If I were you guys I would start questioning the aviation policy first and why this was drawn up? Was it to play some kind of joke on the public and investors? Was it a joke to draw in reluctant investors and then change the rules by flipflopping? Such a policy would be disastrous. Now, 5 years later if the economy goes into a recession with a collapse in air travel are they going to change the policy again?

Even before Brunner & Co. in the case of Bangalore came into the picture the govt. decided on relegating the status of HAL airport to a NON Commercial airport in a major way (with some ambiguity). I had seen newscasts on TV back then, all I have is written proof in the form of online newspaper articles bookmarked in my archive ->


1) Dated as of January 5th 2008 :- same 150km policy stuff with Delhi
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Flight-path-balance/257866/

To let an airport in Greater Noida come up, the civil aviation policy would have to dispense with the restriction of two airports necessarily being at least 150 km apart.

Note:- Now, the interesting part here is that this is completely the opposite of the Bangalore situation..the existing airport Delhi having being privatized is a major one with 25million plus passengers per year and being expanded with ample space for a huge terminal and additional runways. The traffic forecasts at the new airport is anybodies guess. But devesh, existing airport or not, green field or not you see the ugly 150km stuff rearing it's head and definitely all of us can interpret the "cleverly worded" rule in different ways.

2) Dated as of April 10th 1999 :- After Tata's had walked out and before new bids
http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19990410/ibu10059.html

To make the offer more attractive to the bidders, the State Government inconsultation with Union Civil Aviation Minister Ananth Kumar has relegatedthe present airport at HAL for mere VIP flights, flight of only lightaircraft with not more than 52 seats and convert the present space fortraining and as a service airport.

Note :- Now, an investor or a layman with avg aviation knowledge would be that HAL airport would close for commercial flights BUT would raise an eyebrow saying.. now what's the 52 seater deal... where would that aircraft fly to? So, if I were investing in a new airport what does it mean to me as far as commercial flights are concerned?

Hence point 3 below can be put in context

3) Dated as of April 19th 2000 :- In initial pre bidding meeting (after stuff was made "attractive" to bidders like stated before) http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2000/04/19/stories/141960c6.htm

Mr. B.S. Patil, Principal Secretary to the State Government, said the applicants had sought clarifications on the status of the HAL airport, control of ATC and several technical details pertaining to the project.

Note:- I am not implying anything here, putting point 2 notes in context all I am saying is that there were of course doubts as to HAL's status. Now, why would experienced bidders be inquiring about status if HAL was already a huge efficient airport with massive traffic (20plus million passengers annualy or more??) and the govt had clearly spelled out that we would need a 2nd airport to complement HAL for handling spill over traffic? And, of course, I agree, interpretations could be many and there may have been other questions regarding the status and probably some bidders did not really care if remained open or not but just wanted to know out of curiousity :-) which I doubt.

Most importantly why has it become a BIAL & HAL thing AND the monopoly thing as opposed to questioning:

  1. the strangle hold of DGCA & AAI
  2. the horrible inefficiency and mismanagement of our exising airport infrastructure ??
  3. qestioning the flipflopping aviation policies plus the bidding process and guidelines?
  4. Last but not the least AAI's competency to do traffic/capacity analysis which has been exposed in it's most recent blatant lie?.
This whole saga has really spurred me into action to learn the truth starting with the fundamentals, like I said in my immediately previous post I have filed an RTI and will file more.
narayan82's picture

Bialterminal -

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w.r.t to Noida Airport I remember that when Tenders were called - GMR was first invited to build the airport first (something related to one of the clauses.) Hence from my understand, GMR seized this op and are now going to build Noida Airport.
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Devesh's picture

Keep HAL airport open: AAI

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Bangalore: The new Bengaluru International Airport (BIA) has landed in a turbulent whirlwind with the Airports Authority of India (AAI).


The AAI has prepared a report that says that BIA’s capacity is less than what its promoters have stated, that the airport is already saturated, and that the promoters have violated a key clause in the concession agreement signed with the government. It has gone on to recommend that the old HAL airport be kept open till BIA builds an additional terminal.

    The AAI report, a copy of which is with The Times of India, follows a directive by the civil aviation minister to study the capacity issues at BIA. The AAI had designated a 4-member team to conduct the study in June.

    The report says that the Bangalore International Airport Ltd (BIAL) must take “immediate action...to create an additional capacity of 10 million passengers per annum to avoid further congestion and to handle the projected growth.” The report goes on to say, “In view of the saturation of the passenger terminal, import cargo, apron and runway, it is recommended that, in the meantime, the existing HAL Airport may be permitted to operate until the time of commissioning of proposed additional capacity at the new Bengaluru International Airport.”

    As per AAI’s calculations, the terminal capacity at BIA can only handle 9.78 million passengers annually as against the city’s passenger traffic of 10.12 million passengers in 2007-08. This means that since the day BIA opened on May 24, the airport has been under capacity. BIAL, on the contrary, has claimed that the airport’s capacity is 11.4 million passengers, which could even go up to handle 14 million passengers annually.

    As per recommendations of the International Air Transport Association (IATA), an airport which has to handle passenger traffic of 10 million passengers should have a terminal size of 1,50,000 sqm in area. BIA, according to the AAI report, has a terminal size of barely half that at 71,310 sqm.

    The report goes on to state: “BIAL revised its forecast to 11.4 million in November, 2006, for the year 2015 which deviates from the actual traffic drastically. In fact the traffic was growing as high as 43.9% when the revised forecast was made in November 2006.

    As per the concession agreement para 14.2 (page-61) BIAL was supposed to provide facilities as per IATA/ICAO standards and was to provide 27.3 sqm of space per peak hour passenger (PHP), whereas the actual area provided is 19.8 sqm per PHP, which is in deviation with the concession agreement.”

    As per norms followed by IATA, the capacity of an airport terminal is calculated on the ratio between the total area of an airport terminal to the number of peak hour passengers, which for any airport should be a minimum of 25 sqm/PHP.

    In fact the figure of 19.8 sqm/PHP at BIA is way below that of older airports in Chennai and Kolkata which have figures of 23.15 sqm/PHP and 24.15 sqm/PHP respectively. In the new Hyderabad airport terminal, it is estimated to be 35.21 sqm/PHP.

    Further,taking the terminal building in its totality,the report states that the “basement area of 18,665 sqm is not used for passenger facilitation, it is used for storage, services and utilities. Therefore, basement area should be excluded from the total terminal area which will reduce area/PHP to 14.6 sqm.”

What AAI report also said
BIA’s peak hour runway capacity is 32 movements as against current peak hour demand of 25. With anticipated annual growth rate of 25%, runway is likely to saturate during 2010-11. Immediate action should be taken for construction of second runway

    Existing number of parking bays are 42 as against peak hour demand of 41 bays (26 passenger aircraft, 5 freighter, 10 buffer for contingency). Addition of 30 more bays recommended

    There is imbalance between import and export cargo area which needs adjustment, that is import cargo is saturated whereas export cargo and domestic cargo have adequate capacity. It is therefore recommended that an additional import cargo capacity may be created immediately.

Source : The Times of India

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
bialterminal's picture

re: Bialterminal - narayan82

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I haven't followed the Noida one of late so I don't know if GMR jumped at that but I think it is due to the recent policy changes of -> Right Of  First Refusal or something like that

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/Ministry-GMR-lock-horns-over-Greater-Noida-airport-again/292185/ 

[quote]

As per the RoFR clause, GMR will get to match the highest bid for developing the new airport if their bid is within 10% of the highest bid.

[/quote]

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1148196

Now you see the extent of chaos and confusion in the development of all the airports. Seems to me like the government has bitten off more than it can chew  launching massive airport upgrade projects and new airport projects in a short span of 6 or 7 years without getting a lot of the basics right. But having said that by 2010 or so my money is on GMR delivering India's best airport for Delhi judging by their videos and what they have delivered in Hyderabad.

 

bialterminal's picture

devesh - question for you

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Devesh,

Would you know what the HAL terminal size is by any chance? From what I hear from friends and family they say the new airport terminal is much bigger than the HAL terminal but are not able to give dimensions. So, considering that during peak hour in HAL from what I saw...many people standing both before and after security check (at least 50%) I am not sure what is going on. Can you please help us understand this?

 

bialterminal's picture

on a lighter note - my recommendation to Brunner

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Delete the BIAL project from your resume.

Bail out of this project and start looking for another job.

Given, Zurich airport expansion on his resume he will definitely be hired elsewhere.

Smile Meantime, AAI can enjoy with 2 airports in Bangalore. We all know AAI's resume, the lesser said the better. (expect the need for a 3rd airport soon..we get to pick the location this time).

Just kidding guys, just my frustration.

vvr's picture

Attaboy, AAI!

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I have not read the actual report but going by the reporting in TOI, it bears the unmistakable AAI stamp of authority, authenticity and precision – awe-inspiring precision. The capacity of BIAL is 9.78M, not 9.7M, not 9.8M. They have used god’s own caliper it would seem.  

The report also has some useful nuggets of information such as the benchmark data from Chennai and Kolkata. I do travel to Chennai periodically and have suffered through the peak hour rush there but armed with this new knowledge I am certain that my next trip there should be a piece of cake. After all, I will have 58.5616% more personal space there than at BIAL.  

I have to go now to figure out how to activate my “defense against deprivation” instincts for my next trip through BIAL – a couple of rounds of musical chairs might be a good start.

Devesh's picture

HAL Terminal Size

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Hi BT

I really do not know the actual area of HAL terminals (international and domestic). I am trying to get the layouts and will post it as soon as received.

I know HAL has been rated at 6.5 + 1.5 million (dom + int) operations.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

VVR ........ Terminal Sizes and AAI

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I had a chance to briefly interact with the leader of the survey team. This guy is a walking talking encyclopedia on the terminal norms as prescribed by IATA and others.

One of his explanations made a lot of sense. In the past, due to the traditional thinking by the babus in FinMin, they considered air travel to be a luxury, and hence would never sanction the use of public funds to build terminals bigger in size than the minimum 25m2 norms. Which explains the crowded terminals.

I think we can all agree, that we did not invite any private consortium, most especially a foreign one, to build a terminal marginally better than any AAI run one. It was to build a "global standard" airport.

In the story, the report points out for a 10 million passenger capacity airport, the terminal should be 150,000 sqm. I think the comparison to Delhi is to the upcoming T3 and not the existing domestic terminals.

If we compare the global trends, I have done some studies. Check this graph of terminal areas and this graph of crucial ratios of terminal areas, BIAL is way behind.

Changi T2 has a 22 million pax capacity with 350,000 sqm. I find it hard to believe BIAL's claim of 14 million with only 1/5th the terminal size. Changi T3 is 22 million with 380,000 sqm. Obviously the trend is towards larger terminals. BCIA T3 is 1 million sq mtr (14.08 times bigger than BIAL) for 50 million pax, which is also BIAL's stated ultimate capacity.

Sorry, but, I do not see the space in BIAL's master plan to put 14 terminals of the size of the current one, for them to reach their stated goal of 50 million.

Have we become so cynical of Government that we will believe the unsubstantiated word of BIAL over a studied and technical report of AAI.

I want BIAL to succeed, but most definitely not by scamming on the backs of Bangaloreans.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
amaku's picture

whose word would you take ..

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Devesh,

If the choice is between, in your words 'unsubstantiated word of BIAL' over the 'studied and technical report of AAI', I would choose Siemens hands down everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

I'll tell you why:

1. Siemens is one of the largest companies in the world and they did not get that way by cheating third world countries. They have a reputation that is exemplary, for god's sake, their medical and life-support equipment is trusted the world over. While it may be a very effective rabble rousing technique for the politicians to play the exploitive foreigner card, believe me, their reputation in their customer ranks is far more important and valuable compared to a measly $100M. Just as an FYI, the Coca-Cola brand alone (excluding the company's operations) is estimated to be worth over $75B. I'll dig up the case study by either HBS or Stanford called '100 most trusted companies', Siemens is on that list.

2. AAI on the other hand has a track record of corruption, lethargy, inefficiency, dismal performance, and customer neglect. So what if this guy you spoke to was a 'walking talking encyclopedia on the terminal norms as prescribed by IATA'? Big deal, anybody with a reasonable amount of intelligence (AAI is certainly that) and interest can read and memorize a set of manuals/publications. Everything they have done has taught me to expect nothing more than the absolute bare minimum, just enough to make do.

Call it cynicism if you like, but when you've experienced their service for over 35 years it really is a healthy dose of realism.

--amaku

P.S. BTW, AAI did not make the list of 100. Smile

P.P.S. BTW, I believe my absolute contempt for any organization associated with GOI & GOK is perfectly justified through experience. I have been involved in negotiations where we were told after a winning bid to pad it by an extra 25% or else approvals would be delyed further!! Ofcourse, we withdrew our bid and swore to never do business with GOK.

kbsyed61's picture

AAI - Guilty, Prosecutor and Judge - All by iteslf !

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kbsyed61's picture

SB - Post the RTI replies from AAI

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SB,

 Please expedite the posting of RTI replies from AAI.

 

 Syed 

kbsyed61's picture

IS BIAL heading the way like C-DOT ?

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After being witness to the continuing BIAL movie, it is becoming clearer that it headed for the same fate as C-DOT in 80's.

 For benefit of those who do not know C-DOT and its era, let me give you some snippets.

During Indira Gandhi's days (few years before her assasination), a humble Indian Sam Pitroda who had made his name in Telecom in USA, approached GOI and trying to persuade for telecom expansion in India praticularly semi-urban and Rural areas. At that ITI and Telecom department was very eager to start the Mobile technology in DElHI. Sam Pitroda tried to convince the bureacrats instaed of providing mobile telephoen service to few hundred rich guys in Delhi, one can spend that money to provide telephone services in 1000 villages and small cities. Somehow IG could not be convinced. Sam left empty handed to US.

He returned to India during the days of Rajiv Gandhi and found the willingness and encouragement. That lead to establishment of C-DOT (Center for development ofTelematics). Its started out developing electronic exchanges for rural and semi urban areas. It's philosophy was based on modular products. It achieved remarkable success in developing exchanges upto 32000 lines. It transferred the technology to private manufacturers. That changed the whole telecom scenario specially in rural areas. Earlier they were at mercy of state Owned ITI and its outdated technology and products. C-DOT had a problem in developing 60000 line exchanges. Its missed the schedules and got delayed by 2 years. It did succeed in finally launching the 60000 line exchange. It was first installed in ULSOOR exchange and it was reported to be still running fine and great. It was a remarkable story of runaway success in indigenously developing products that suite and benefit the Indian condition. During the 32k to 60k innings there were many incidents that needs closer look. This is the crux of my comment. It resembles the saga of BIAL.

 When C-DOT was a runaway success, ITI, its bureacrats and its suppliers became afraid that it might lose its place in Telecom. Politicians played their role very well. ITI ganged up with Alcatel - France, to produce electronic exchanges. Its first plant was established in Mankapur, U. P. (I had the prevelige to visit this ITI). Alcatel executed its plan very well. First it helped setup the ITI in Mankapur and trained its official free of cost. It gave the technology and equipment free of cost. It also started bad mouthing C-DOT. It started a campaign with discrediting Sam Pitroda and C-DOTs capability. They used to tell ITI that it has 100s of Sam Pitrodas. This suited ITI as well. ITI bureacrats in company with the Alcatel left no stone unturned to ensure that C-DOT was pushed to a failed state enterprise. Unfortunately political scenario expedited the C-DOTs future. Sam did not enjoy the same influence as before in government. It is said that Sam had to resign from C-DOT and return to USA for financial reasons. Later Alcatel, in liberalised economy, set up thier own manufacturing plant in Haryana. Now no body talks about ITI and C-DOT.  In all this interesting happennings politicians, ITI bureacrats and the brokers made their killing at the cost of rendering both ITI and C-DOT to be defunct public enterprises.

Coming back to BIAL and its similarity with C-DOT, it should be obivous that BIAL is C-DOT of today in PPP avatar, AAI playing the role of ITI and our Pro-HAL lobby perfecting the art of ALCATEL. It has picked up where the ALCATEL left ITI.

The way the plan is laid out, In one sceanrio, Bad mouth/discredit the BIAL to the possible extent, Put the HAL airport opening threat looming on BIAL all the time. Media houses like TOI and our Pro-HAL campaigners would dance to the tunes of AAI and would play the role of perfect spoilsport. Somehow the HAL airport would be opened. Expansions and 2nd Phase would remain just the plans. Things would be made difficult for Brunner and company. At some point they would call it a day. AAI would step into operating the airport. It would be great oppurtunity for polticians, their industrial/Business friends to loot what ever they can. AAI babus would be happy to be the party in loot. What can we say.

 The 2nd scenario is, first installment of bribe and curruption is all finished and eaten. Nothing left. It seems the money that was paid is not to the satisfaction of AAI Babus, MoCA officials and Political brokers. Therefore make the capacity report negative aginst BIAL. Basically hanging the negative report sword on BIAL. Threat BIAL with HAL opening slogan again and again. Forcing brunner and Company to start the expansion and this time ensure that Brunner pays the right amount otherwise one more capacity report. Either way Brunner would be forced to play the game per AAI wishes.

 Are we ready for another C-DOT innings and finish?

bialterminal's picture

praja has a better clout

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Devesh's picture

Amaku, I take logic over reputation

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Amaku

The comparisons to other airport terminals globally, lead me to believe the AAI survey. If BIAL wants to present its side of its case, with figures it will lead to an accurate comparison.

I believe figures, and there is nothing concrete from BIAL.

Till today, BIAL has resisted all efforts to present its books of accounts. Siemens may have a good reputation globally, but BIAL is not Siemens, and it is BIAL which is in court fighting a case of unfair tendering and non-transparent procurement. 

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

Selective Amnesia - Mid-Day article

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Selective amnesia
By: B V Shiva Shankar
Date: 2008-07-24

Bangalore:

Helicopter charter services run by the Deccan Aviation continue to operate from the HAL despite the airport being closed for commercial operations.

Bangalore International Airport (BIA) is likely to face some uncomfortable questions in the high court on August 22, when a two-member bench hears the case for the retention of the HAL airport.

Breach of agreement?

G R Mohan, a lawyer arguing for the re-opening of the old airport, has brought the issue of chopper services to the court's notice, stating that it is a violation of the concessional agreement. The court has sought objections to his petition from stakeholders such as the BIA, the state government and the central government.

"If the BIA doesn't want commercial aviation activities at HAL, how can it allow Deccan's heli-hopping, which is purely commercial?" asks Mohan.

"It is in violation of clause 5.1 of the agreement. If the concessional agreement bans commercial aircrafts, it applies to helicopters also," he said.

The central government had issued a notification on 16 May for the closure of the HAL airport, following the concessional agreement involving BIA and the central government. The HAL airport was closed on May 23 when BIA was inaugurated.

Limited operations

On July 1 Deccan Avitaion launched its helicopter charter service, named Deccan Skylimo, from BIA to selected locations in the city that include HAL, Electronic City and Whitefield. Deccan Aviation has said it would soon extend the service to Palace Grounds as well.

Citizen groups fighting for the retention of HAL airport have raised an alarm over the issue even as HAL authorities appear confused.

"We are not supposed to have commercial operations in HAL, but heli-hopping is being conducted here. But I must say it is in a limited manner," said Krishna, wing commander, helicopter service, HAL.

Krishna said Rotary Academy was taking care of Deccan's chopper charter services. "As of now it is completely between Deccan Aviation and the academy," he said.

'No violation'

When MiD DAY contacted Clife Lewis, general manager, Deccan Aviation, he said chopper charter services were not in violation of any norms.

"We have conducted 15 to 20 trips since the services started. I think we are not violating any rules and regulations," he said. Concessional agreement restricts only commercial aircrafts and not helicopters, he added. "We have no problem with the chopper charter services as we have no revenue-sharing or any other business relationship with Deccan Aviation," said a spokesperson of BIA.

"It is okay for us as long as no commercial aircrafts are operating from HAL," said the source. The spokesperson declined to comment on whether the chopper charter services were in violation of the concessional agreement.

http://www.mid-day.com/ne...

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
silkboard's picture

Re to Syed: Posting now

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Terribly sorry for the delay.
kbsyed61's picture

Channelise the Clout in right direction.........

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