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Large PPPs like BIAL - ripe for corruption?

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[A Request - This is a carryover from talk of corruption and transparency that emerged in this HAL-BIAL thread. Please don't drag the peripherals like big people wanting airport in their backyard etc into this. Add your wisdom and tips that are relevant here.]

We really want to understand this. What are the transparency and disclosure norms for PPP (Public Private Partnership) Projects? Looks like they don't come under the purview of RTI Act, at least the matter is not settled yet (We believe BIAL has filed an appeal against a court verdict that put it under RTI). Does lack of transparency set PPP projects up for corruption?
Simply put, PPP is "project based on contract or concession agreement between a Government or statutory entity on one side and a private sector company on another". There are several ways in which government and private sector can get involved. Leave aside the private sector (they bring in Management or asset maintenance skills, operational expertise, or just offer goods or services), lets look at the ways in which governments brings things to a PPP to make it attractive to Private parties. These would be:

  • Provide investment capital by using tax money
    • Ex: GoK investing in BIAL?
  • Offer long term contract to consume services of the PPP, thus making it more attractive for investment
    • Ex: I promise to buy all your power at rate X. Or, for BIAL: I promise no airports in 150 km radius.
  • Investments not in cash but kind - offer goverment land, or stale assets (land at concessional rates to NICE for BMIC, land for BIAL as well)

Now, when we talk about small sized PPP initiatives, say 10 crores to build a road, arguably, it is easier to watch and say if the money has been spent and used well. How do we do that for a large project like BIAL?

  • Government provided land at subsidized rates to BIAL (this would be investment in kind, not cash)
  • Government has further invested some cash in the venture. ??? crores (GoK and AAI combined). This is our money, comes from the taxes we pay.
  • BIAL is a Rs 2500 crore project. this amount doesn't include the 'value' of land the the state government brought in.

Forget the land dealings, thats a messy thing to get deep in. Let us talk about the accounting aspects of BIAL.

  • How do we know that the airport is worth Rs 2500 crores? For lack of access to a detailed account or report in public domain, if one looks at Hyderabad Airport (another PPP) for comparison, it certainly seems bigger and more lavish with lot more visible concrete construction
  • BIAL must be submitting detailed accounts and financial reports about its investment. why are those not in public domain?
  • Who is the auditor for this super sized PPP project? If there is none, can we, the public, get Lokayukta involved?

The worry we have is this, and fairly simple to explain. How do we know that the following has not happened:

  • BIAL says they spent 2500 crore to build the airport
  • But they may have spent only Rs 2000 crores
  • The unaccounted money may be with BIAL themselves, waiting to be spent, or, may get 'shared' between whoever is supposed to watch over the accounts of this PPP.
Please note, we are not saying - is BIAL a scam? We have no proof or credibility to make such tall statements. But how do we know? What we are asking for is - since its a PPP, who should carry the burden of transparency? Public, government, or the private enterprise itself?

Understand that its important for us to know and tune the workings of large scale PPPs really well. PPP is being touted as the cure-all model for our infrastructure woes, and we don't want this excellent idea to fail due to lack of transparency and accountability.

Comments

Devesh's picture

We can get RTI from GOI and GOK not BIAL

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This comment has been moved here.
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Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
kbsyed61's picture

AAI - Guilty, Prosecutor and Judge - All by iteslf !

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Had the pleasure of going thru TOI news item along with the informative comments from all of you.

VVR, loved your comments and I am sure people would pounced on you for showing the mirror to us.

From the report and info from various sources it seems AAI has perfected the art of playing the multiple roles at the same time. In BIAL Saga, it has excelled in playing the role of guilty, prosecutor and Judge to the highest perfection. It deserves a ACADEMY AWARD and Life time Achievement award.

GUILTY - Who can deny that when Burner and company constructed the terminal, it slept over all these three years without uttering a word even if meant the terminal design was undercapacity or not upto the IATA/ICAO standards to provide 27.3 sqm of space per peak hour passenger (PHP). Actually, in its RTI reply, it acknowedges that constantly it reviewed the design but did not felt obliged to make any recomendation or suggestions. This suggests either they are incompetent to understand the design details of any airport structure or they just looked the other way. Curruption and inefficiency are core competency of AAI. I am sure for that it could get listed in Fortune 500.

PROSECUTOR - Having slept for 3 years, suddenly wakes up in January 2008 and starts prosecuting Burner & Co with selective leaks to friends and friendly media about ATC being not ready, not enough ATC personnel, capacity numbers game etc. In its role of prosecutor, it starts laying the charges of lower capacity terminal, compares it with our Favorite HAL airport. Suddenly HAL capacity is certified to be 10 million. Our Pro-HAL friends must be jumping in their board rooms celeberating the possible coup on Brunner & Company. It now proudly certfies the BIAL terminal to be 19.8 sqm per PHP and suddenly realises that it is a deviation with the concession agreement. Actually it forgot that they are 13% equity holder and 2 of its mmebers sit on the board.

JUDGE - Having accomplished the roles of guilty and prosecutor at the same, it did not forget to deliver the judgement. The Judgement is HAL airport should be opened.

I would urge everybody, if they claim that they "CARE" for Bangalore and care about their tax money, it is time we file a PIL against AAI and their friends to held them accountable for all the failures in BIAL. All the AAI bureacrats related to BIAL project and its nominated board members on BIAL to be prosecuted and severley punished if found guilty. I would like to see how many of our "Pro-HAL" supporters who have been shouting from rooft tops that they are not against BIAL, would support such a cause.

Prajagale, let's find the legal way to fix the AAI for its bunglings in BIAL.

BT, count me in for the legal adventure against AAI.

Syed

 

Devesh's picture

We can get RTI from GOI and GOK not BIAL

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We should file an RTI with GoK (Chief Secretary and Principal Secretary Infrastructure) asking for all their files relating to BIAL, and also specifically asking for an official copy of the AAI survey report.

The crucial information is the financials of BIAL. But BIAL is not in the RTI net, how do we get around it ?

KSIIDC is the agency from GOK side that has invested, similarly AAI, and MoCA. We should get the financials and tender documents, file notings, etc., from them,

IATA or ICAO would be the "neutral" agency, but they will be subject to pressure. Also costs ? Who will bear it. Incidentally, court has already ordered the survey. AAI cannot warp the logic or the base recommendations of IATA or ICAO. So we can use that report, and confirm the figures with BIAL. For that we already have a court action in progress, so any action by Praja will get clubbed up in that.

It is also important for us to realise, that GoK is not pro-BIAL, not anti-BIAL, but Delhi (MoCA, AAI, DGCA) is very pro-BIAL (for obvious reasons).

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
bialterminal's picture

praja has a better clout

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Some thoughts...Praja has a better clout than us as individuals. Any lawyer on praja? I think we all should do our part and pitch in. Let's start collecting relevant documents and facts through RTI -

1) I have started with the 2nd runway flipflop drama that was going on a few weeks back as I mentioned in my previous post. I am caught in a loop which will hopefully get resolved  http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rtirequesttoembassy001cn0.jpg. I will also pitch in with stuff related to operational efficiency, traffic justification for just 1 airport or having 2 airports and other stuff which may not be available publicly at present but can perhaps be extracted through RTI (who knows, there may be a possibility and I am willing to try). 

2) Syed can you tackle documents related to the initial bidding process? We need the project proposal submitted by as many bidders as possible to understand why the current consortium was chosen and to rule out that we better airport & terminal design was deliberately not chosen. 

3) Devesh, you seem to be knowledgeable of the AAI study that was done and you have interacted with one of the individuals. From your previous posts on SSC and praja you seem knowledgeable about the financials & economics. So, could you pitch in through RTI to get the relevant facts and share it on praja?

4) Can somebody on behalf of praja pitch in by exploring some way of having the courts appoint a neutral non government 3rd party (free of govt pressure, having no conflict of interests, free of BIAL pressure) - a) do a complete study of BIAL capacity as well as HAL capacity b) do an audit of BIAL's immediate and future master plan to see if it fits the needs & recommend changes if needed?

kbsyed61's picture

Channelise the Clout in right direction.........

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BT,

Before we jump the gun, I would suggest that Praja should have a definite and well defined plan of action to take on BIAL issue specially against AAI & MoCA. I am not sure just collecting the info would change anything. Unless it is followed up with some action resulting in intervention by the government authorities or court to fix up the bunglings due to corruption and political/business nexus.

Answers to the following question should help in formulating the objectives in BIAL-Action Plan:

  1. What is that we expect from BIAL as a airport project for B'lore?
  2. What is that BIAL failed to meet our expectations?
  3. If BIAL has failed the decent airport dream of Bangalore, who is responsible for this failure?
  4. What can be done to mitigate the BIAL failures if any?
  5. What could be the Praja's response to this crisis?
  6. How does we can help Praja realise this response?

SB and others, can we form a Airport Work Group to take up this issue and see that Bangalore's dream for a decent airport is not shaterred.

Syed

admin's picture

Want anonymity? And replies to Syed's RTI.

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Do we want some "anonymous_coward" like feature to get more members to post their "knowledge" on the subject. Let us know, and we will try to set something up.

We want to be careful about naming names, and need to be fact based, careful and polite here.

And here are the replies syed got for his last query to AAI.

AAI-Reply-01-BIAL.pdf
AAI-Reply-01-HIAL.pdf
AAI-Reply-02-BIAL.pdf
AAI-Reply-02-HIAL.pdf

bialterminal's picture

Re: Want anonymity? And replies to Syed's RTI.

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Admin,

Smile Not sure what "anonymous_coward"  is intended to be meant...I would suggest....  "respecting each other's privacy" would be more appropriate :-) 

shas3n's picture

Anonymous Coward

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bialterminal, although the term 'anonymous coward' might seem a bit derogatory, it is a common internet ‘lingo’ word to indicate people who wish to remain anonymous. The derogatory overtones of the term are not present anymore, but we can of course think of better sounding names to use on praja. Here is more information on the origins and meaning of the term. http://en.wikipedia.org/w... -Shastri

-Shastri

kbsyed61's picture

Not the full list !

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SB,

It looks like all the pages has not been posted here. Actually the 8th page in AAI_Reply_02_BIAL document contains some answers that clearly indicts AAI rather than private partners.

Could you pls post these documents in its enterity?

P. S. I have emailed you these docs. 

Syed 

tsubba's picture

anonymous coward

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"we can of course think of better sounding names to use on praja." like tarlesubba or silkboard or even bialterminal perhaps? :) but their is a caveat. how do you sift between genuine off the record stuff and sky is falling type of rumours? important to blow whistle but need to be careful.
bialterminal's picture

thanks ts & shastri :-). I

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thanks ts & shastri :-). I had got it wrong. For some reason I was thinking that term was referring to the private details scratched out on the RTI documents posted above. Thanks for educating me..on the internet lingo..and pls ignore my comments.
kbsyed61's picture

It's GOK or GOI that invited bids fro BIAL?

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Devesh,

In order for us to obtain the relevent documents on BIAL, it is very important to know who did what. 

" .......... 

2) Syed can you tackle documents related to the initial bidding process? We need the project proposal submitted by as many bidders as possible to understand why the current consortium was chosen and to rule out that we better airport & terminal design was deliberately not chosen.

......." 

 In the context, do you know who is responsible for inviting the bids and choosing the consortium for BIAL project? Is it GOK (KSIIDC) or MoCA/AAI (GOI) that gave the permission for BIAL project?

 Syed 

Devesh's picture

Syed ..... let's not be too hasty

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Syed, I propose a little balance with reference to the BIAL issue.

From what I hear from various state government and central government officers, they have advised / suggested to BIAL many many many times to expand the terminal and other support facilities.

However, BIAL has refused to heed their inputs.

AAI may be a governmental organisation, and I have experienced their lethargy in the past. I have met members of the AAI planning team which came to Bangalore. From my expert opinion, these people knew their stuff.

Please see my 28/May visit report to BIAL airport. http://aviation.deveshaga.... There have been serious lapses on the part of BIAL itself. Even after a 2 month delay in opening, not having buildings for airlines' offices, customs and cargo agents, do not speak well of the planning capabilities of BIAL. Mr. Brunner openly admitted that BIAL completely forgot about the cargo & customs agents' building.

We seem to be very quick to point fingers at our Government. Yes, based on past history, they deserve our cynicism, but I feel Praja should take a more balanced approach and attempt to go in this situation without pre-judgement.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
bialterminal's picture

re: syed let's not be too hasty

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Hi Devesh,

I have taken on roles of project management where I have had to choose vendors; now, granted that the vendor could turn out bad, but at the same time I cannot pretend that I told the chosen vendor what to do and they never listened. The first obvious question would be then on what basis did I choose and approve the vendor and why and for what requirements. In almost all instances the requirements are clearly spellt out, I look at the proposal drawn up by the vendor and ONLY THEN go ahead with procurement. Now, nobody is saying BIAL should not be questioned, but I think it is hard to believe that MoCA, GoK & AAI were snoring and pristinely uaware of an airport coming up in their backyard and what an internatinal airport should be like and what THEY require or have ordered for till it opened up on May 2nd. They (MoCA, Gok, GoI) simply should not have approved the project nor have chosen this consortium nor have signed the concession agreement! This is precisely the reason why we need to gain insight into the bidding process and what happened. If you notice many folks have been vigorous critics of BIAL equally regarding a number of things and are correct in fingerpointing at the Govt in areas where it has bungled.

From the beginning this is what I was afraid of, this thing turning into a mess, and I feel that this is something like fixing a derby where many people have bet that a horse is going to lose and will try everything to make it lose to make huge gains. There was NO STRONGER indication than the 2nd runway flipflop hungama a few weeks back.

I am not sure if you read if you read my reply to one of your's and photoyogi's posts -

http://bangalore.praja.in/blog/silkboard/2008/03/24/short-term-fix-lease-out-hal-airport-bial#comment-6794  which gives more insights into the flip-flopping aviation policy, the ugly 150km bone of contention etc. We have already seen how difficult it is to have a contract in place and agree to it, and keep a project going. It does not take a lot of time to break it and send BIAL packing home. All the court has to do is to uphold AAI's capacity report, then faulting BIAL on the concession agreement becomes easy. Dilute the traffic by reopening HAL, make sure BIAL does not invest more for expansion; draw up more concession agreement violations and that would do it. The AAI report is so cleverly sensational that rather than sticking to whether BIAL's calpacity is BAD or GOOD; it has been given a clever twist to make it sound that HAL capacity is ultimately (at the end of the day) more than BIAL which is a BLATANT LIE :-). To tell you the truth I am surprised that AAI even did the study much less submitting it.

Now, regarding your assesment of AAI - "From my expert opinion, these people knew their stuff." Well, then why  do we need foreign expertise in the first place? :-) All we need is some investors and we have L&T for construction. Would it not sound funny if I said the Indian olympic athletic team kown the ins and outs of running, hurdles etc.?

Yes, I definitely agree with you that we should take a balance aproach but we have been able to make educated guesses based on what has happened so far. 

 

 

silkboard's picture

Easy folks

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Things have to happen in some sequence and without prejudice or assumptions. Jumping into blaming X Y or Z will make us look no different from mainstream media. First job would be to collect some facts, and I see them in this order

  • The structural aspects of the PPP called BIAL
    • Who committed to bring in how much money (this should be in public domain)
    • Value brought in by government via non-cash investments - land at subsidized costs. Is this included in GoK's percentage stake in PPP?
    • The agreements (CA), and the dates when these were amended, plus exact amendments made.
  • Accounting aspects
    • Reports about actual investments made in project so far. How much surplus, how much shortfall.
    • How many such reports have been submitted
    • Who has been auditing these reports

bialterminal, bidding is certainly another area to look at. But I would say that the stuff after PPP was crystallized is more important because it helps us answer the question - are large PPPs set up for corruption because of their weak norms of disclosure? is BIAL a bad or a good example of PPP?

Frankly, I dont think we will have to or should do the full job here, we may not have the resources. But if we manage to get some information un-earthed here, I am sure mainstream media will pick it up and do the rest. Conversely, if we figure that BIAL or MoCA/AAI's dealings are all fair, we should do our best to not let regular media malign this PPP.

Talk is cheap, let the RTIs begin.

bayern's picture

Devesh, there is nothing hasty about

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Devesh,  there is nothing hasty about moving forward with RTIs .

The worst thing that can happen is, Bangloreans will have the real facts to determine if all the anti-BIAL news and accusations against BIAL is indeed true or not. By not doing anything, public will be blindly accepting opinions & lies expressed by certain group and media with vested interests.

Its a win-win for everyone (both anti-BIAL & pro-BIAL) when the real truth is made public, there is no value in judging someone on hearsay news

Devesh's picture

Bayern, I am all for RTI's

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I am all for the RTIs. As I said, the RTIs should be filed with AAI, MoCA, KSIIDC, Principal Secretary Infrastructure GoK and Chief Secretary GoK, 

I am just cautioning about pre-judging. We need to go in with a balanced frame of mind.

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Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

BialTerm ................

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The AAI report is so cleverly sensational that rather than sticking to whether BIAL's calpacity is BAD or GOOD; it has been given a clever twist to make it sound that HAL capacity is ultimately (at the end of the day) more than BIAL which is a BLATANT LIE :-).

That comparison was a mis-statement by The Mint, and all of us have had a hearty laugh. The report in the TOI appears to be much more accurate.

Now, regarding your assesment of AAI - "From my expert opinion, these people knew their stuff." Well, then why  do we need foreign expertise in the first place? :-) All we need is some investors and we have L&T for construction.

If you see, HIAL, it is very close to what you are saying. In the late 1990's India did not have the developers with money, or reliable construction companies. Today we do. Let's face it. Do we honestly need a Zurich airport ?  BIAL is recruiting a Head for Phase 2. I posted the job requirements. Did you see them ? They want a construction specialist. Not an operations specialist. 

Incidentally, BIAL is not a vendor. It is the controller of BIAL. With 74% stake, they control BIAL. All inputs from GoK or GoI are merely that, suggestions. I fully agree with you on suggestion that we need to get insignt in to the bidding and finalisation process.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
amaku's picture

Devesh

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Quoting your response to Bialterminal

'... If you see, HIAL, it is very close to what you are saying. In the late 1990's India did not have the developers with money, or reliable construction companies. Today we do. Let's face it. ...'

Seems like you cleverly get amnesia when it suits you! Do you remember a small company called the Tatas was the first one on board. Do you know why they pulled out? Wasn't L&T also rumoured to be interested originally? Do you remember why Mr. Narayanmurthy quit the BIAL committee? Can you tell me the primary difference between the players involved in BIAL & HIAL? I'll give a little hint, alright a big hint its not Siemens (your favorite target), it's called the GoK and the self-styled saviours of the motherland and it's poor and downtrodden.

I'll tell you something else, Siemens got played by the masters of the bait and switch. They are not used to dealing with the consumate two-faced politicians our country and especially our state seems to specialize in.

Notwithstanding everything else, AAI, MOCA, etc. do come out this smelling like roses. Even if the Mint article was a mistake. HAL has 10% less capacity than BIAL is a load BS, you can claim expertise, walking talking encylopaedia's etc. , but having experienced both, it is absolute nonsense. HAL is a piece of crap, looks and smells like a public urinal cannot handle even 2M passengers a year with any degree of comfort.

You are more than welcome to tout its effeciency and capacity but, it will never make it the truth.

--amaku

Devesh's picture

HIAL .... not HAL

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Amaku,

HIAL (RGIA) has GMR an Indian developer, coupled with Indian construction team. Airport management expertise is from Malaysia.

Pioneering requires tremendous patience. That is the one skill I Mr. Brunner has in abudance. Unlike the Tatas and NRN.  Very frankly, we should focus on the here and now, rather than who expressed interest BIAL and who walked away.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
bialterminal's picture

Re: bialterm...... (Devesh)

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Hi Devesh,

No, I wasn't aware of the Head recruitment for phase 2. Thanks for pointing that out. Where can I read more about it? I think I missed that post of your's perhaps. Anybody aware of the detailed plans for phase2 and how the terminal is going to be? I have been looking for it on the web without success so far.

 

 

Devesh's picture

Top Manager - BIAL Phase 2

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Description
We are currently seeking on behalf of our customer, a private-public venture group a highly motivated and qualified Project Manager 2nd Development Phase Bangalore Airport (BIAL). BIAL's vision is to develop a world-class airport that will serve as a gateway to the east and west, create a hub of activity for the Bangalore community and set new standards for the aviation industry in India. A private-public venture, the project is being built and will be operated by the company for the next 30 years with an option to continue for another 30 years.

The Position:
As Manager 2nd Development Phase” and Member of the Executive Committee, this position entails the entire responsibility for the next BIAL expansion. The ideal profile is for an Architect or Civil Engineer with postgraduate studies in Business Administration. We expect profound knowledge of planning and execution of airport expansion projects as well as in airport planning and construction. Moreover required are multicultural and diversity management skills as well as excellent communication skills. There will be a direct reporting line to the CEO of the airport company.

Key Tasks:
- Guide, monitor and supervise the planning and execution process of the 2nd expansion phase in coordination and cooperation with other departments of BIAL (commercial, operations, maintenance and legal), all relevant authorities and partners (consultants, etc.)

- Tendering of all work, negotiations of the contracts with suppliers
- Execution of the project within budget and deadlines
- Receiving all approvals and licences with relevant authorities
- Close corporation with the operation of the airport
- Regular interaction with private promoters and shareholders to coordinate various development steps.
- Building up a strong team of architects and engineers to guide, monitor and supervise the whole planning and execution process of the 2nd expansion phase.

Your Profile:
- Ideally Architect or Civil Engineer with (ideally) a postgraduate study in Business Administration
- Profound knowledge of planning and execution of airport expansion projects
- Experience in airport planning and construction
- Executer, ability to manage big construction projects (including sub-contractors) from the planning stage till execution
- Capable of maintaining excellent relations with various authorities
- A mature, results driven individual with a proactive approach - ability to convert relationships into results
- High intellectual as well as hands-on ability with a high level of attention to quality
- Efficient, proactive and creative working methodology with the ability to set priorities

If you are interested in this challenging position we would like to ask you to send us your CV.

You can contact us:
Hisearch GmbH
Michael Schlüpmann
(Senior Consultant Executive Search)
Fritz Meyer Weg 46
81925 München
Germany

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
kbsyed61's picture

Take it easy ???????

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SB,

 This is first time hearing about a unique management practice that we execute a project without setting any goals or rather not knowing what should be the end result and waht needed to be executed. From your posting it seems you are suggesting to go forward without having any direction and where does Praja's efforts ends. 

 Let me know if it is not important that we draw a specific list of action items that we will work on w..r.t BIAL?

kbsyed61's picture

Hasty, Balance approach, Prejudgment ????

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Devesh,

I am amazed at the approach you have suggested to be adopted to get the truth about BIAL. Balance approached and truth all in one breadth.

Devesh, when truth is told, it need not be balance. Unless you are suggesting that whole truth need not be said. Be Selective. Because we can not anger our political and bureacratic bosses and friends. It might hurt our long term interests?

Looks like pointing GOI and GOK mistakes based on their actions so far is Pre-judging. Whereas day-in day-out campaign against BIAL's private partners is a balance approach without any pre-judgement. It seems a balance approach is not to accept the fact that AAI and KSIIDC has failed the "Public" participation. It is suggested that we need to appreciate that they did so wonderful job in ensuring the Bangalore's needs and later on they themselves certifies that airport falls below the minimum requirements. They must be genius to pull up such a stellar performance.

Let me decipher your message in the posting that calls for getting the truth but with balance approach. Your message is:

  1. Don't hold GOI (MoCA/DGCA/AAI) responsible in BIAL bunglings becuase:
    1. They represent "PUBLIC" participation with 13% holding
    2. AAI does says it approved the airport building designs
    3. DGCA issues airport license even when the infrastructure is incomplete
    4. Customs issuing license for Cargo operations when the buildings and basic amenities were not in place
    5. AAI ran the HAL airport for years, they are walking talking encyclopedea on airport infrastructure requirements and yet approved the terminal design which later certified by themselves that PT falls below the minimum requirements.
  1. Don't hold GOK (KSIIDC) responsible in BIAL bunglings because:
    1. They represent "PUBLIC" participation with another 13% holding
    2. They represents the interest of Karntaka and specially interests of Bangalore.
    3. Good Connectivity to airport is still a dream
    4. Promoting solutions that are more than the cost of the airport itself.
Whether every body here on Praja, agrees it or not, for me to get the truth, my first stop would be my representative in BIAL - GOI & GOK. You may call it Pre-Judgement and not balance, So Be it.
Niranjana's picture

Bravo, Syed! You said it

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Bravo, Syed! You said it very well. One more thing is when BIA was being constructed, halfway thru (or something), MoCA said the terminal space was not sufficient and BIAL had to expand it. [which shows that when MoCA intervened, BIAL had to (and did) comply] So are they not admitting that MoCA/AAI did screw up then? I mean, was their then correction just a wild estimate without a survey? Or is their current "survey" a convinient stick with which to deflect criticism to the private partners (based on short public memory)? All the talking, walking encyclopedias in the world are of no use, if that knowledge is not applied on the ground.
Devesh's picture

I meant more balanced in criticism

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Syed

I agree with all your points. And thanks for reminding me about Customs. I missed that point.

I only wanted to convey that as minority stakeholders, the role of GoK and GoI was limited. I am in agreement with you that we cannot and should not forgive them for not protecting the public interest.

When I talked about a balanced approach, we must recognise the limitations of the government organisations. Both internal, due to sloth and orders from above, and external, due to their minority status.

Point 1.5 is an example. AAI's approval or disapproval did not matter, since BIAL was the controller, and if rumours are to be belived, had the super boss of AAI in their favour. Having said that, we must determine what exact role did AAI have in the terminal design and acceptance process.

BIAL bhi doodh mein naya hua nahin hain. We should not be uni-directional in our criticism. Let us recognise the short-comings of BIAL and also look to take action in that direction too.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
kbsyed61's picture

Criticism should be honest not balanced !

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Devesh,

I do not know what you mean by more balanced criticism. Criticism should be honest and objective, even if it goes against my own family/friends? Right?

Why should my criticism be balance? Am I supposed to please AAI bosses? Am I supposed to be friendly with GOK, because we have a new dispension and they are above criticism. I hold no bar against any of the BIAL constituents.

By asking for balance criticism you are actually asking everybody on Praja to be diplomatic and not to be objective and honest in their opinion.

Boss, for me, Praja is not a political front so that it has to please everybody. Lets make Praja a truly different platform. Honest, Committed, Caring and always truthful.

Let me state what Praja's stand w.r.t BIAL should be:

  • Find out the true facts about:
    • What was new airport supposed to be?
    • If it is not what it was supposed to be, then what went wrong?
    • Who is responsible for this?
    • How could this be rectified/corrected?
  • Fix the responsibility who ever the culprit may - AAI, KSIIDC, MoCA, GOK or Brunner & Co.
  • Pressure the authorities to make the culprits pay for their acts in BIAL

Let me know if this is not what we want? Let me know if this is the course we need to take? Let me know if this approach is indeed a non-partisan and more importantly it puts Bangalore at the front of all my interests.

Syed

silkboard's picture

Whats up Syed? Its called "agile"!

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What yaar. I am only saying lets plan one concrete step at a time. We want to go to Nelamangala first. Will plan the drive till Shimoga after that, then Sagar, and then Jog falls and have fun there. If you race straight for Jog falls, you may do it via Arsikere yourself, while bialterminal may head to Chitradurga, Devesh Chikamaglur, and I may just lose my way after Nelamangala. Not to say that the readers/members will have a hard time tracking our individual paths.

Its called "Agile", a popular way of executing projects these days. Whole team plans small concrete steps, each concrete steps brings more clarity about the broad end goal. Its like driving in the night. You know your destination, but you are focussed seeing only as far as the car's headlights show you, just so that you don't miss any turns :) The goal is to make BIAL PPP's structure, accounts and quality parameters transparent. Whether that will end up exposing MoCA or AAI or Siemens or GoK, or neither of them, we will know once we get closer.

Now, this is for the folks reading this thread - raise your hands (by sending Private message to Syed or bialterminal or by just leaving comments here) if you want to help. We need help in filing and tracking RTIs. Syed/Bialterminal will tell us how to do it. You will have to draft letters, print them, and post letters to certain addresses.

Syed/Bialterminal/Devesh - agree and discuss it amongst yourselves, and then lead us all by publishing a list of questions we need to ask via couple of RTI applications. We know we have to ask pointed questions to have better chances of getting meaningful replies. That is why it needs some thinking and planning.

santsub's picture

Agile or Xtreme Programming

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I have one suggestion - can we arrange to meet Mr Brunner in person with our praja team.. and know what is his perspective on this? Just like we did with Mr Sood.

Atleast we will have a clear idea as to what Siemens thinks about BIA Phase 1 and future. Then we can arrange to meet AAI or MOCA if they are willing to spare time to be transparent. This will also give us insight into their thinking and in taking small steps to solve the menace BIA is headed towards.. well atleast its a hope.

Syed Sir, Devesh, bialterminal, SB?? any suggestions?

Agile works well on certain projects and does not fulfill needs of others.. be it waterfall or agile - lets make it successful should be our mantra.

amaku's picture

Re: HIAL ... not HAL

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Devesh,

I don't know whether you just don't get it or are being deliberately obtuse? I know very well HIAL was developed by GMR, I was merely pointing out that the Tatas, L&T, & NRN all pulled out of BIAL for a reason -- GoK and the honcho's in control. The reason BIAL phase-1 is incomplete is exactly the same.

You can choose to ignore the unbelievable greed and rampant corruption that is thriving within the GoI and especially GoK, but that is the root cause.

I take umbrage at your comment '... Pioneering requires tremendous patience. That is the one skill I Mr. Brunner has in abudance. Unlike the Tatas and NRN. ...' The Tatas and NRN have all the patience they would ever need, building great companies requires tremendous patience. I was fortunate to be part of the founding team at a company which has had a very successful IPO and is thriving today several years later, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes.

Besides patience, another attribute that they have is foresight, both of them saw a no win situation and decided to leave. Siemens and Mr. Brunner on the hand, did not.

My comment about HAL, btw, was to let you know that just because you call yourself an expert and claim that AAI has walking, talking encyclopedias (on airport design and what not) does not change the fact that their creation, HAL, always was, continues to be, and always will be a glorified cowshed. No one can ever convince me that it can handle more than 2M passengers yearly with any degree of comfort -- if you are talking about human beings as passengers, animals on the other hand, it can probably handle more than 8M just as the AAI report claims.

--amaku

kbsyed61's picture

I was about to draw that anlogy ................

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SB,

 When I started writing that comment, I had thought of drawing Agile analogy. You know, being from Software Configuration Management domain all along, it is hard not to use these Jargons. But just to make it simple on praja delibertely dropped it.

 Syed 

kbsyed61's picture

Santsub, I second your suggestion !

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Santsub,

 First of all pls do not call me 'sir'. I am not that old to be called Sir by following Britishers  legacy. Pls just call me as Syed.

 I second your suggestion for series of meeting with MoCA/AAI, GOK and Mr. Brunner. Actually I would like to add if possible praja should meet with one of the BIAL Board member from Siemens/Zurich side.

 Actually I would suggest if diplomacy can be employed to get the work done that would be more prudent than going in for forcible changes/works strategy.

 Syed

bayern's picture

Devesh, It really beats me

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Devesh, It really beats me why you want everyone in Praja to be "balanced" in our criticism towards non-BIAL parties when you have never been "balanced" criticizing BIAL. Seems like you are bit hesitant with Praja moving forward with the RTIs.

All the recent criticisms and accusations on BIAL has been based on this so called "AAI" report. Anyways coming to the AAI report itself, the existence of this has been floating for awhile now, but still no one knows the official version of this report (assuming it exists). There has been various versions (with some ridiculous data)  leaked to the media for over a month now. Why is the official version still not made public. To me , it looks like someone is leaking wrong anti-BIAL information to the media in a hope that public will start believing this misinformation, and when infact the truth really comes out, its just too late to change people perception on BIAL.

By filing RTI's  we can put an end to all these misinformation thats being leaked to the public. I think the anti-BIAL brigade have been using this rumoured AAI report /data and  have been taking people for a ride a little too long now. If you or anyone else have access to the report, then please make it public, because public is entitled to know the truth and not rumours coming from selected few

 

santsub's picture

Sorry Syed - Did not mean you are old

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When I use Sir I generally follow respect may be I thought I should respect your knowledge and drive that you have even though we are all remote. :) here after will address you as Syed :)


I was talking about a WG for BIAL - I would have loved to be part of it but I am too far away but will do what ever I canto make it work.

bialterminal's picture

AMS non stop from BIA soon?

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Kingfisher has decided to make AMS as international hub
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ow/3292173.cms
Devesh's picture

One needs to interact closely to understand Govt better

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Sometimes, everything is not what it appears in public, including the AAI report. I know who has the report copies, and why it is being buried and not being presented to court, but I cannot and will not disclose it. This report is the first thing we should demand under RTI.

I am unable to disclose too many details, and sometimes a cooperative approach is called for, in place of a confrontation (do we not practise this on Praja ?)

When I mean balanced, I do want us automatically labelling something bad just becuase it is government, and something good just becuase it is private. The coin has two sides, and while I will be the first to admit my frustrations at the bureaucracy and corruption in Government, like it or not, they are the powers to be, and we have to work the system to our advantage and to achieve our goals, and I am not focussing just BIAL.

I have organised a meeting tomorrow morning, between BMTC and AAI and BaCHAAL. I am trying to coax AAI in to allowing BMTC to use HAL as a hub, so that VV and Suvarna bus services become more effective, and if HAL airport re-opens in the future, a mass transport culture is already introduced at HAL.

I was reading an interesting article in today's Business Standard (page 2), about HIAL wanting to increase UDF due to"slow down", while at the same time, another story that AAI will invest Rs. 1800+ Cr., in expanding Chennai airport, without any budgetary support or UDF. Lest we forget, AAI also runs those wonderfully profitable airports with super high traffic, at Tirupati, Trichy, Aurangabad, Madurai, all over the North East, etc. AAI is not some hyper efficient organisation, but they must be doing something right for these kinds of financials.

In my humble opinion, Private sector shows its efficiency, best, when faced with competition. In a monopoly situation, private airports are not obligated to perform in a lean and efficient manner. Their profits are assured by a fixed ROI.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
bialterminal's picture

re: One needs to interact closely to understand Govt better

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Hi Devesh,

The RTI process has been started  on multiple fronts by multiple folks and is going on. Regarding the govt. or private parties folks are just calling a spade a spade :-) based on resumes :-) and past & present performances :-). If somebody was to pick an entity for airport development abroad, GMR would fit the bill based on what they did at HYD and are going to do at DEL(that is if they do a good job which I am sure they will). AAI will not even be considered for the bidding stage :-)

Smile I thought I had been surprised enough but I am surprised even more by your statement ->

"In my humble opinion, Private sector shows its efficiency, best, when faced with competition. In a monopoly situation, private airports are not obligated to perform in a lean and efficient manner. Their profits are assured by a fixed ROI."

In my humblest of opinion, private sector shows it's efficiency in a healthy environment where there is no government intereference AND where there is good law enforcement to protect interests of one and all. Also, in a state monopolistic situation AAI is not obligated to even provide hand soap in the restrooms much less a clean, good terminal NOR is DGCA along with AAI obligated to improve the airspace management efficiency. Enough comparisons have been drawn with other single and 2 runway airports like LGW,SEA etc. and I am not going into that again!

It is not hard to run profitable airports when the entity running the airports is the sole entity in the country where they pack passengers like sardines. Whether privatization is good or bad..the green field airports at Cochin,Hyd,Blr and the upgradations at BOM & DEL all speak for themselves.

amaku's picture

AAI and UDF

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Devesh,

I completely agree with bialterminal's comments. In addition find this statement even more surprising

'I was reading an interesting article in today's Business Standard (page 2), about HIAL wanting to increase UDF due to “slow down", while at the same time, another story that AAI will invest Rs. 1800+ Cr., in expanding Chennai airport, without any budgetary support or UDF. Lest we forget, AAI also runs those wonderfully profitable airports with super high traffic, at Tirupati, Trichy, Aurangabad, Madurai, all over the North East, etc. AAI is not some hyper efficient organization, but they must be doing something right for these kinds of financials.'

I'm surprised because I've heard you call yourself an entrepreneur and a capitalist. Do you honestly believe there is no UDF being paid for these 'expansion efforts' and 'wonderfully profitable airports'? How do you think the AAI is funded? Our taxes pay for that over funded, bloated, inefficient bureaucracy. In fact it’s much worse than collecting UDF, every taxpayer, whether an airport user or not pays and somehow you believe it is preferable!! This is the kind of thinking that drove the former Soviet Union to the poor house.

Taking about monopolies, the only thing worse than a private monopoly is a government funded monopoly.

--amaku

bialterminal's picture

AAI airports did not come for free

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And, Devesh,

The portrayal of AAI doling out airports for free (without budgetary supports or UDF) etc. is going to make AAI folks themselves laugh let alone somebody knowledgeable of economics and business. Please refer to my post of SSC -  

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=20205344#post20205344 AND this link - http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/2001/03/14/stories/141404ya.htm .In addition to these sources our taxes and AAI profits have gone into the AAI airports. Now, how come the very same tax money is conveniently brought up and the Rs 10,000 crore figure is raised (aacounting for the land) in the case of Devanahalli but not talked about with the state run ones?

amaku's picture

Service delivery and the public sector

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Came across this article in the economic times, not directly related to the subjet but at the same time it is!!

'My first two stops — Hyderabad and Bangalore — brought me to dazzling new airports built to international standards. ... seemed no worse to me than the time taken going from the JFK Airport to Manhattan or from Narita Airport to Tokyo. '

http://economictimes.indi...

--amaku

vvr's picture

World-class facilities at a "profit making" AAI airport

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This is for those who keep knocking the facilities provided at AAI airports. Please check out the following link (taken from SSC). This is one of those user-friendly, profit-making airports. Even though it is undergoing renovation, passenger convenience has not been compromised one bit. I believe I was at this facility last month.

 http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=23366748&postcount=779

 

Devesh's picture

Re: Private Sector efficiencies and any monopoly

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"In my humblest of opinion, private sector shows it's efficiency in a healthy environment where there is no government intereference AND where there is good law enforcement to protect interests of one and all. Also, in a state monopolistic situation AAI is not obligated to even provide hand soap in the restrooms much less a clean, good terminal NOR is DGCA along with AAI obligated to improve the airspace management efficiency."

Sure, sure. I am laughing my head off remembering the days of private sector and licensing.

Those private sector monopolies or oligopolies who had the license were extremely efficient and well run. I do not know if you are old enough to remember the days when we had to make advance payment and wait 10~15 years for a Bajaj Super scooter. Of course, the price was of the company's choosing, since you did not have a choice.

I still remember the strings my father had to pull in order to get his 1964 booked Fiat by 1972.

No wonder all those wonderfully well run efficient companies were able to compete, without requiring tons of protection when India started liberalising.

BT, you worked for Boeing. Think back and compare efficiencies at Boeing, before Airbus became a competitor and after.

There was a reason why the US Supreme court ordered the break-up of AT&T in 1982. Even today, Microsoft, Intel, and other tech giants, in the most free economy are still regularly hauled up for abusive practices thanks to their (near) monopoly status.

Give me break. Puhlease.................................Wake up and smell the sunshine.

A monopoly is just that, a monopoly. It does not matter Government or Private. Any monopoly will abuse its position. To ensure honest performance and true value for money delivery of services and products, a competitive situation is a must.

Private sector has the rapid decision making ability and agility to survive in a competitive situation. Government, thanks to its bureaucracy, does not.  Sometimes, even the large private sector companies have the same problem.

Before firing back, please remember two points. 1. I am an extremely right wing person when it comes to the economic side of thing, and 2. my initial comment was that we should be balanced in our judgement be it private or government.

When it comes to private airports or public, I am in favour of two airports or more in all major metro cities in India. It is the only way to keep the operators honest, be they government or private.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

RE: AAI and UDF

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I'm surprised because I've heard you call yourself an entrepreneur and a capitalist. Do you honestly believe there is no UDF being paid for these 'expansion efforts' and 'wonderfully profitable airports'? How do you think the AAI is funded? Our taxes pay for that over funded, bloated, inefficient bureaucracy.

Amaku

The AAI does not take any budgetary support from GoI. It in fact PAYS income tax to the exchequer.

Please take the time to read the AAI Annual Report. It is available at www.aai.aero. Just some highlights for you from the 06-07 report. 07-08 (BE) Revenues 3425 Cr. Income Tax 682 Cr. FBT 20 Cr. Service Tax 300 Cr. PAT 743 Cr. Dividend paid to GoI 145 Cr.

Capital Structure : GoI 472 Cr. (keeps increasing as profits are partially ploughed back). Reserves : 3755 Cr. (That is where the money for the Chennai terminal is coming from).

Also just for your information. The Rs. 225 Passenger Service Fee that you pay on every ticket. Rs. 130 goes to CISF for security, Rs. 70 to the terminal operator (AAI, BIAL, HIAL, DIAL, MIAL, etc). Rs. 25 is Service Tax @ 12.36% on Rs. 200.

I do not recall any other tax being imposed. Can you please let me know if I missed any ?

All the private operators are screaming that if their traffic is too small, they cannot meet their fixed costs of establishment. My statement applies to AAI running small airports in the North East, Madurai, Trichy, etc., where there are only about 10~20 landings per day.

I am not defending AAI being bureaucratic, but at the same time, I want us to remove that mental veil in our minds that private operators are somehow fantastic and the cure to all ills. If private operators are so good, let us have two airports in each major city and let the best win.

Taking about monopolies, the only thing worse than a private monopoly is a government funded monopoly.

You have this backwards. At least a government monopoly is subject to politicians (and the fact that they are approachable by the public) and the RTI act. Try getting the detailed financial statements of BIAL.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

VVR ..... World class facilities at a privately run airport

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VVR,

Which airport did you take the picture at ?

check out this pictures of a major metro private airport. A shining example of "on-time" construction in record time.

http://picasaweb.google.c...

http://picasaweb.google.c...

http://picasaweb.google.c...

Incidentally, these are buildings meant to house the airlines offices and the cargo and customs agents' offices. Airlines have been given "temporary" offices in the BIAL building, and the cargo and customs agents work by the road side.

Let us demand the very best for ourselves. Be it a private or a public sector player. Let us take an honest and unbiased approach.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

RTI Process

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The RTI process has been started  on multiple fronts by multiple folks and is going on.

That is really great to hear. My best wishes for earliest positive results

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

RE: Service Delivery and the public sector

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Great story Amaku. Thanks for the link.

I put it on my blog with the following preface "As my final post for the month of July, I reproduce a touching example of the revolutionary change occurring within the aviation sector in India. Indian Airlines is 100% government owned, and has mended its ways thanks to the competition from private sector airlines. A similar revolution has already occurred at the state owned BSNL, who is competing head on with the private telecom providers, and all the state owned banks, who are competing with their private counterparts.

It is time the mandarins at Rajiv Gandhi Bhavan free NACIL (Air India and Indian Airlines) and the Airport Authority of India from their clutches. They will compete and effectively.

Devesh"

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

RE: AAI airports did not come for free

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The portrayal of AAI doling out airports for free (without budgetary supports or UDF) etc. is going to make AAI folks themselves laugh let alone somebody knowledgeable of economics and business

BT, I never claimed that AAI airports came for free. All the private airports, still collect the same Rs. 225 Passenger Service Fee (PSF), as AAI, and it is distributed the same way, as AAI. (Rs. 130 for CISF, Rs. 70 for the terminal operator).

The Rs. 500 FTT, has been dropped long ago, as was IATT (which went to GoI, not AAI). It is now universally Rs. 225 PSF for all flights. I have no problem with that. My statement was relating to the Rs. 1000 in ADDITION to the Rs. 225 being charged (or being demanded for) by the private airport operators.

Please refer to my post of SSC http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=20205344#post20205344

With regards to your post on SSC. I am in complete disagreement with you on Zone wise charges. A person using an airport should pay the same amount. I do not believe that a regional passenger demands or gets any more or less service compared to a trans-country passenger.

As a passenger, I am paying the airline more for flying me a greater distance i.e. proportionality of service rendered. How can the airport turn around and demand differential fees based on the distance I am flying. What concern is that of theirs ?

In fact, other than outbound immigration and customs, (for which there can be a smaller additional amount), I still do not see the justification for the Rs. 1000 for international when compared to the planned Rs. 675 for domestic.

Just as the oil companies treat ATF as their Kamadhenu, so the private airport operators treat international and trans-country passengers.

Both must stop.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
bialterminal's picture

re:aai airports did not com for free

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"BT, I never claimed that AAI airports came for free. All the private airports, still collect the same Rs. 225 Passenger Service Fee (PSF), as AAI, and it is distributed the same way, as AAI. (Rs. 130 for CISF, Rs. 70 for the terminal operator).

The Rs. 500 FTT, has been dropped long ago, as was IATT (which went to GoI, not AAI). It is now universally Rs. 225 PSF for all flights. I have no problem with that. My statement was relating to the Rs. 1000 in ADDITION to the Rs. 225 being charged (or being demanded for) by the private airport operators.

Please refer to my post of SSC http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=20205344#post20205344

With regards to your post on SSC. I am in complete disagreement with you on Zone wise charges. A person using an airport should pay the same amount. I do not believe that a regional passenger demands or gets any more or less service compared to a trans-country passenger. "

Devesh, so from your statement above you agree that passenger was paying some form of fees for using the airport correct? That's the point and thanks for providing information confirming that fact and agreeing to it. The zone proposal was just an example. Feel free to propose an alternative one which you feel fit since people will not agree with one fees for all passengers (I am ok with that though). I was countering your statement " was reading an interesting article in today's Business Standard (page 2), about HIAL wanting to increase UDF due to “slow down", while at the same time, another story that AAI will invest Rs. 1800+ Cr., in expanding Chennai airport, without any budgetary support or UDF" and my point is not to get into a counter productive argument but to highlight the above fact that AAI did not spring up without passenger' s money being involved in some way; only that private airports call it UDF and AAI calls it differently (passenger service fees). And, yes, the issue of how much fees a any airport (private or govt. run) should charge is debatable and I am not kowledgeable enough to base it on scientific and mathematical facts. But, based on returns for the UDF I would pay I would pay just Rs. 130(CISF security fees) to use an airport like HAL because I do not find facilities proportional to even Rs 70 per passenger being delivered. And, yes, I feel that there should be one lumpsum fees as opposed -> to some UDF fees+the current Rs 225 that covers the cost of operating and developing the airport.

spry's picture

Re: Bialterminal

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UDF applies to only Pvt Airport. PSF  anyway will apply to both , Pvt and AAI. SO MY DEAR BIALTERMINAL, Pvt AIport are asking for UDF over and above PSF. I hope its clear now. I fully agree with Devesh, Pvt Comapnies in the absence of competition wi suck your blood till u are dead. The only thing that can beat them is "competition". There is no way they can justify UDF. By the way, if we give them a chance they will try their best to recover the investment in the very first year of operation. Who they are liable to..to us or the shareholder..and shareholder just wants "Profit" be at the cost of customer like you and me. We have just one weapon..yes just one weapon that is subject them to "Comptition".


Devesh's picture

In private airports UDF is in addition to PSF

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In private airports the UDF is in addition to the PSF. Also, why do we always fall back on HAL ? Let us go across to the IC terminals at DEL or BOM. Even the Chennai terminal, while not great, was pretty decent. The operator is getting only Rs. 70 per departing passenger.

Sorry, I do not see ANYTHING additional facilities in BIAL airport that justifies Rs. 1000 when all other airports charge nothing (Rs. 225 PSF excluded which BIAL also gets a share of).

I think this thread is about potential abuse in mega PPP projects, and I agree with BT that no point discussing on off thread topic.

Swinging the thread back to topic, the best safeguard against against possible abuse is competition. Public vigilance is something we have come together to do at Praja, out of passion and love for Bangalore. We all have full time jobs to do. We cannot be doing this for the rest of our lives.

Just as an example of potential abuse. All along BIAL has been talking about a 7 year pay back for Phase 1 of this project. Suddenly in the last 2 months, it has been reduced to 5 years. The tool to achieve this -- UDF, on our backs.

We need to do what is already happening in the airline, telecom and banking sectors. Competion has made Indian, BSNL, and all the state owned banks leaner and meaner. In airline, Indian has suffered due to the constant intrusion of Rajiv Gandhi Bhavan. In telecom, try as hard as they can, the private telcos are not able to match BSNL in wireline, in banking, I would call it even.

However, in all cases, both the private and public sector companies have to innovate and offer VFM service which is beneficial to the consumer, and ultimately the companies themselves as the lower costs grows the markets.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
bialterminal's picture

:-) ya, right, competition!

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When all else failed, now "competition" is added to the list for the "reopen HAL"  line. Friends :-) for that, all you guys need to do is ask :-) there is no need for justification or anything :-) since sane facts & dynamics don't matter anyways;  how about an airport near electronics city to increase competition 3 is better than 2 correct :-)?

And my friends, those who are talking about competition...give me a break...if there was real competition Air India would have disappeared long ago if it wasn't state supported. Devesh, proponent of competition, I have not heard from you about what you feel about having HAL and BIA thrown open to 2 different private consortiums 100% private with 0 govt. participation and no regulations of destinations/aircraft whatsoever in both places plus starting with a demolished terminal at HAL (to grant a level playing field); THEN let's talk about competition. Or, even better, let BIA and HAL be handled by AAI with no restrictions on destinations or aircraft capacity. That way passengers can havel all the competition they want between 2 lousy airports without having to pay a single paisa of any fees(call it whatever..passenger facility fees or UDF :-) )

 But, having said that, a country of 1 billion prior to the new Hyderabad Airport could not  come up with a single airport to compete with the likes of HKG,SIN,ICN etc. !! Let's get the fundamentals right and then talk about competition between 2 airports in the same city where currently the 24 hour traffic is handled in a matter of few hours at airports abroad.

And devesh regarding "Before firing back, please remember two points. 1. I am an extremely right wing person when it comes to the economic side of thing, and 2. my initial comment was that we should be balanced in our judgement be it private or government." I honestly don't care which wing any of us including me belong to. I am basing my argument based on sound aviaiton facts and the whole flipflop history of this saga; folks are talking about competition thinking airports are some retail entities selling commodities in a high volume. :-) Let us reach a sustainable level of traffic first to make use of one airport, develop it to the fullest extent possible to maximum efficiency with good road & rail infrastructure.

Devesh's picture

Competition

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And my friends, those who are talking about competition...give me a break...if there was real competition Air India would have disappeared long ago if it wasn't state supported.

I suggest you get your history correct. AI was one of the most profitable airlines in the world till government interference really commenced in full earnest in the late '70s onwards. The Raj of Indira Gandhi's sycophants. You worked at Boeing. Please check the history of the 747. AI was one of the earliest customers. It was profitable enough to venture on to the 747. Air India was pushed on to government dole becuase of government interference and politicians using it as a cash cow during procurement and as an employment cow for pleasing their constituents.

Devesh, proponent of competition, I have not heard from you about what you feel about having HAL and BIA thrown open to 2 different private consortiums 100% private with 0 govt. participation and no regulations of destinations/aircraft whatsoever in both places plus starting with a demolished terminal at HAL (to grant a level playing field);

First read the AAI annual report, it is a self sustaining organisation just like any company, and then read the opening para of my blog story http://aviation.deveshaga.... I have called for the corporatisation of AAI. Then read some of my posts here on Praja, as well as my newspaper quotes. I have proposed a partnership at HAL airport. Should AAI not arrive at any partnership, I am equally happy with an AAI run terminal. In Bangalore, I have seen their efficiencies and their grit, handling traffic far more than the terminal could handle. I know the inside story. All is not what it appears. Those who want to sit down with me this weekend, I will take time. Lets meet.

Let us reach a sustainable level of traffic first to make use of one airport, develop it to the fullest extent possible to maximum efficiency with good road & rail infrastructure.

And I love it when someone talks about the "sustainable traffic" story. Mr. Brunner always like to quote New York and its 100 million passengers to justify multiple airports. Just for your information and his, NYC had 3 airports when the traffic was only 4 million. They have grown TOGETHER to reach 100 million today. What in your mind is sustainable ? Look at this graph http://picasaweb.google.c....

At a time when money is in short supply, is there really a need for us to spend 5000+ Cr for a rail link to BIAL, especially when he is not willing to part with one iota of land for road connectivity ?

Yes, SH-104 from ORR runs parallel to NH7 till Bagalur. This is one of the roads the government has spent 1600 Cr on improving. SH104 touches the south end of the airport, but BIAL will not let it come in to the airport, as valuable real estate land will be lost.

They even had the gall to demand 25% of the VV ticket fees from BMTC as their "permission fees". BMTC agreed to give them whatever they demanded, but would print it on their ticket. BIAL promptly dropped the demand, and also all cooperation. Now they will not even give a chair to BMTC inside the terminal for them to offer their bus brochures to passengers. They do not clean the bus stand (while they clean the parking lot all around it). BMTC sends a cleaning crew every morning, along with drinking water for the day. YES!!!!! BIAL does not even offer drinking water to the BMTC crew.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
kbsyed61's picture

Let the probe be balance w.r.t BIAL issues !

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Interesting news item

http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/01/stories/2008080153310400.htm

Courstey - Deccan Herald.

Must be in hurry to make up for the losses after having slept for 3 years and didn't even bothered to do a bit to do their part of helping connectivity to new airport. Looked the otherway when BIAL approved their designs and built the buildings. No body even bothered to check if the buildings has the amenities it required or not? Looks like we are working overtime to make that last minute killing. I wish they show the same hurry and passion in completing all the roads and connectivity issues.

Suddenly woke up to the fact that there is a new airport and it has strated working. Operated by private operators, not enough room to make any deals. Must have been very hard to swallow the bitter pill that not much benefits could be reaped from the project, and land around it. The current land price might have been the biggest shock.

 I welcome the probe and fixes thereafter. Let the probe's scope be balanced to include the connectivity and the government's role in the project so far also. Let the probe be balance w.r.t BIAL issues.

 

bialterminal's picture

Devesh, THE FACT OF THE DAY

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Devesh,

THE FACT OF THE DAY = TODAY = AI is the least preferred airline by Indians & Foreigners; by international travelers globally & domestic travelllers; it is basically the last choice. I suggest YOU get your history straight that AI was started by Tata and was really doing good after which it has been dowhill. 

"NYC had 3 airports when the traffic was only 4 million. They have grown TOGETHER to reach 100 million today."

I had heard this argument before and had not responded due to the utter foolishness of that argument but :-) -> FYI......that was some 50 odd years ago when airspace management technology & procedures plus aircraft capabilities(avionics,climb performance etc.) were not like what they are today.  Give everybody a break..that way I can argue New York, LA etc. had good streets & freeways in the 50s!!! whereas our good old Bangalore and major cities are light years away from that in the 21st century. Nowadays, even an extra runway let alone an airport is really hard to justify in a lot of cities where efficiency and maximum utilization are being pushed for. Do we want to go the route of look NY & London have 3 or 4 airport each so why can't we as opposed to look how much traffic efficiency they can achieve so let's do that? Or, is it that hey, let's use every trick in the book to get HAL opened because ..I find the other airport too far? With that logic the LA area alone will need about 10 airports :-) one being dedicated exclusively to disney land. Hey friends- flash news - we are in the 1950s :-) in India let's build airports that are near enough to drive but far enough to be away from the hassles of one THEN subsequently let's call them "congested" following which we will have a convenient excuse to blame air space congestion on multiple airports.

I never said that there never should not be multiple airports in Bangalore or other Indian cities. Let's get one running to full potential first; let's get THAT right first. Let's allow one to open and run fine first; Let's get the supporting infrastructure right first. Let's get the flip-flopping aviation policy right first.

Regarding your question " What in your mind is sustainable ?" Well, I am not talking just about profits from running an airport, airports are huge investments and consume a lot of resources and affect the local population where they are built as well (both positively and negatively..the negative aspect often forgotten). So taking a balanced approach and looking at the big picture where we need to ensure that a new airport (in this case BIA) needs to develop to the fullest extent with ability to handle traffic comparable to single or 2 runway airports here is what I think it should be ->
http://www.praja.in/bangalore/blog/devesh/2008/07/14/fuel-populism-killing-air-traffic#comment-6533 [I am still waiting for your response to that], I am requesting a resonse from you in the true spirit versus "no, the rules are different and the calculations I(Devesh) am making are as per DGCA rules which is not possible to change". I am requesting a response in the true spirit of what you feel it takes to  make that kind of traffic possible vs giving reasons like - look they have a different aircraft mix, they have mostly internatinal traffic, look they have competition (Seattle does not have 2 commercial airports)..and a 100 other reasons why that cannot be achieved and then ending up with the line ...so henceforth Bangalore needs HAL.

tsubba's picture

not amusing.

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"brunner" impersonation is not done. user id/nick/handle is provided for convenience not to facilitate impersonation of another character. you are more than welcome to state your opinions. if you are interested in further participation please consider using a different nick. your account will be left enabled for another 24 hrs. if you dont change the nick by then, you account will be disabled. also, please abstain from making personal attacks. there is no need to appeal to a person's job and affiliation to make an argument. Devesh speaks as an equal here. His other associations are irrelevant to praja.
bayern's picture

Hypocrites, Socialists or Lobbyists?

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Devesh,

On one side you keep complaining about connectivity problems to BIAL and how people and industries in electronic city are being affected. And when Govt is solving this very connectivity problem with rail link, you seem to be opposing it.

Same with BIAL expansion, you keep complaining that BIAL needs immediate expansion, but don't say anything when open-HAL brigade file petition to prevent BIAL from expansion.

Sorry to say this but I can't understand what your and open-HAL brigade's real motives are? Is it anti-BIAL, or anti-Privatisation or just open HAL at any cost?

Burnner's picture

5000+ Cr for a rail link to BIAL

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At a time when money is in short supply, is there really a need for us to spend 5000+ Cr for a rail link to BIAL, especially when he is not willing to part with one iota of land for road connectivity ?

Devesh, a project like this is not built to serve public just today and tomorrow but for the next 3-4 decades atleast . If everyone in the past was thinking like you do, then we would'nt be having any highways, railway lines, metro lines, bridges ,etc, today.

C'mon this can't be really coming from someone like you.

 

bialterminal's picture

devesh - bmtc facilities at bia

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" Now they will not even give a chair to BMTC inside the terminal for them to offer their bus brochures to passengers. They do not clean the bus stand (while they clean the parking lot all around it). BMTC sends a cleaning crew every morning, along with drinking water for the day. YES!!!!! BIAL does not even offer drinking water to the BMTC crew. "

Devesh, I agree. Facilities within BIA need to be clean which includes BMTC parking bays too. I am not sure if this has happened after the July 7th to July 13th week because that is when my wife used BIA and she was impressed and thankful for the BMTC facilities (including staff being helpful, cleanliness & safety). But, if things are not like that anymore then definitely please bring that to BIA's attention as it needs to be corrected. Guys, does anybody else have similar complaints about lack of cleanliness at BMTC bus stands in BIA?

Regarding water supply and chairs I think this necessitates building a good ground transportation center with adequate rest facilities. Do you know if eatery joints already exist or are planned outside the terminal? BMTC drivers can perhaps show a BMTC driver id and procure food & water at discounted rates. 

Burnner's picture

Re:not amusing

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Tarlesubba.... relax, as you said its just a nickname, no reason for the threats.

If you are gonna get an ego boost, then please go ahead and disable my account, while you are at it, disable your account also as I have a cousin named subba, so unless you are him, then you are an impersonator too (just holding to the same standard set by you)

tsubba's picture

thanks pal

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hey burnner thanks for understanding. mighty nice of you. i will go ahead close the other account since you now have a new id. let me know if you have account related issues. now lets get back to BIAL. so, we all realize competition brings out the best in businesses, especially in the service industry. and yet BIAL is a significant investment for the city and so far it has not reached its potential. If we undercut its prospects at a stage when it is growing, wouldn't the city be shortchanged? What would the city get for investing 4000+ acres in to that? and yet, at 5000 crores for a dedicated corridor the city is digging deep into its pockets, especially because if history is any indicator in all probability the city will have to replicate resources and efforts in future. we all know concomitant to the airport's growth the city is going to grow. i.e, the next koramangala is going to be around BIAL. people will need commute and transit options. should the city then replicate effort and resources? what about leveraging what already exists? interesting set of problems to have. need to keep at it. perhaps in an aha moment somebody will comeup with an elegant solution.
navshot's picture

Competition and Infrastructure

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Some of us are pretending as if same size of clothes fits all. The matter of fact is, nope, it doesn't.

Competition is certainly good for the economy and consumers. But common sense tells me, that we can't extend the kind of competition of services and products to infrastructure. They are different. We shouldn't confuse between them.

Going by the argument that we need two airports for competition, we need the following then, maintained by two companies/parties:

1. Two metro networks

2. Two railways networks

3. Two approach roads to my house maintained by two different parties

4. Two electricity connections to my house

5. Two water connections

6. Two sewage collection connections

Common sense tells me that they would be hugely inefficient if we try to duplicate these. Competition should be limited to bidding to build and maintain these and from there on, regulation should take over. If we genuinely cannot handle capacity with a single infrastructure, we need to anyway build additional to augment capacity. We build additional roads like elevated corridors to handle capacity constraints, and not to have competition. We build additional dams to address capacity issues, and not for competition. There are innumerable such examples.

We are living in difficult times. We have to maniacally focus on efficiency for a better tomorrow.

-- navshot

-- navshot
Vasanth's picture

5000+ Cr for a rail link to BIAL - Not a good option

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Instead of spendng 5000+ cr on rail link which may or may not be used since all the localities are connected by BMTC volvos / zoom airport express, it is not a viable solution.

Add 5,000 volvos to BMTC to serve the entire city using the same amount. Take 500 of them to connect all the localities and gullies of Bangalore to BIAL with BIAS route number upto 500+.

If this has to be done, a BOT operator should be called. Government should not use our tax paid money to BIAL. I hardly travel once in a year in plane, why should my tax paid money goto unused service?

A Metro on the other hand to Yelahanka would be a wise option which serves everyone..

bialterminal's picture

dedicated rail link not the way

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Folks, we need to step back and think of the rail system in an entirely different mannner. We can take our very own national capital's metro system as an example. We need to a built a cost effective mass transit solution and then tap into that network and build/extend that link to the airport (http://www.thehindu.com/2006/02/12/stories/2006021214640100.htm). We need to partner with the railways and - launch a study to see if the existing track's utlization & efficiency can be bumped up with modern automated technologies; see if additional tracks can be built along the current railway lines on railway owned land. I feel that all this should come under the purview of an infrastructure task force that will galvanize all agencies into action to achieve a single common goal without inter agency beuracracy, redundancy & turf wars. Like others I am a bit skeptical of a hugely expensive dedicated rail link serving just the airport; we need to step back and look at the bigger picture & plan well. In my humble opinion a rail system for moving people in mass combined with a good bus system radiating out of each station would be an ideal solution with the rail system having a connection to the airport. The question that remains is what kind of efficient cost effective rail system can be built to suit the needs. Sorry for going off topic :-).
Devesh's picture

BT, Bayern, et al .......... do you want to meet face to face ?

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Guys, I am unable to participate fully in Praja responding to each person's views. It is consuming too much of my time, and at this point, I am overloaded with work.

There is much I can learn from members, and in return convey my view point, and hopefully arrive at a consensus somewhere.

I am willing to meet any number of Praja members over the weekend. Sat or Sun. I will be happy to host the meeting at my office in Koramangala, or willing to meet at any other location convenient to meeting attendees.

Please PM me if interested or send me a mail at devesh at the rate of deveshagarwal dot com.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

RE: Competition and Infrastructure

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Competition is certainly good for the economy and consumers. But common sense tells me, that we can't extend the kind of competition of services and products to infrastructure. They are different. We shouldn't confuse between them.

Navshot, by this measure, all projects are service including infrastructure. The investment by companies like airlines or telecom is in their infrastructure. They sell you the service based on their infrastructure. You have the choice of two or more airlines, or telecom company. In many countries in the world, you have the choice of electricity provider, if not at the individual level, at the city level, and we know in the US, the typical city is the size of a Jayanagar, or Malleswaram. In fact energy exchanges are being set up in India now for companies to trade. Reliance is ready to lay pipelines to Bangalore as soon as given permission to pipe gas. So will GAIL.

About 20 years ago, when KEB was sucking up all the money from consumers, and not paying KPC thus causing KPC being bankcrupt and not able to buy coal and generate electricity, industry actually mooted and implemented the idea of contracting electricty direct from KPC and only paying KEB a wheeling charge for the carriage.

But again going back to the topic of this thread. Competition is a sure way to prevent abuse in large PPPs.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
bayern's picture

Can Govt/AAI take over BIA?

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Few weeks back during Siemens' upper mgmt town hall mtg regarding company's direction for FY'09 , BIAL was very briefy mentioned, it was something like " After the opening of the airport, there has been lot of uncertainty about the longevity of the project "

I was'nt sure what he meant, but automatically presumed something related to ecconomic slowdown, but now it appears he was talking about this.

http://www.deccanherald.c...

Looks like Govt wants to take over BIA, Is it legally possible for Govt to pull this off?

No wonder BIAL is hesitant to invest more. Frankly speaking, I don't see any reason why BIAL should invest a single penny more on the airport until these uncertainties are settled. Would we invest more money onto our house, if we know that the bank is planning to reposses our property. Hell No!

amaku's picture

One final message ...

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Devesh,

I've come to the conclusion that there is really no point in any further discussion with you. It seems like you argue for the sake of argument. A few recent examples:

Bialterminal says: '.. if there was real competition Air India would have disappeared long ago if it wasn't state supported'

Your response: 'I suggest you get your history correct. AI was one of the most profitable airlines in the world till government interference really commenced in full earnest in the late '70s onwards.'

My question: how does your response refute Bialterminal's point in any way? We all know how good AI was when it was a private (Tata) airline!!!
I post an article from Business Standard 'A quiet revolution in service delivery?'. whose main point is that liberalization and private enterprise have taught the Indian consumer the meaning of service delivery after decades of public sector malaise.
Your response: Post it on your blog and claim that IA etc. (part of the same AAI/MOCA hierarchy) are providing superior service.

My question: WTF???

You make baseless allegations '... Pioneering requires tremendous patience. That is the one skill I Mr. Brunner has in abudance. Unlike the Tatas and NRN. ...'

My question: Tatas (perhaps one of the best managed companies in the world) and Mr.NRN (founder of the company that made Indian IT and Bangalore a household name the world over) don't know what's needed to be a pioneer? Enough Said!

You talk about providing competition to BIAL in the form of HAL all the time -- a famous business leader once said 'competing with the government is equivalent to operating on oneself' the rules can and do change under your feet.

Finally, you call yourself 'extreme right-wing' when it comes to economics.
All I can say is that you're either directionally challenged or mixing up hockey/football with economics.

I will no longer read, and certainly will not respond to any posting or message from you.

Wish I could say It's been a pleasure.

--amaku

Burnner's picture

RE:Can Govt/AAI take over BIA?

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Sure we can, this is how its done;

1. Even before BIA is opened, start spreading the news that airport is too far, takes 3 hours to reach the airport, etc, so HAL must be re-opened

2. Once public starts realising that connectivity issue in reality is an exagerration,  start complaining about the capacity of the airport, so HAL must be re-opened

3. When BIAL revealed about their expansion plans, immediately file petition to prevent them from expansion and at the same time complain publicly that BIA does'nt want to expand, so once again HAL must be re-opened

4. Then start propogating into the media that BIA itself is below international standards, airlines are suffering, passengers are suffering,etc

5. Enrage public by constantly feeding stories that BIAL is here to loot public because its a private company. At the same time make clear to the public that private companies like GMR is an exception because its an Indian company, but BIAL cannot be trusted as it is a foriegn company, so HAL must be re-opened to prevent BIAL from becoming a large airport

6. Now, when media and public have picked the above propoganda, start threatening BIAL with cancelling or to re-negotiate the contract using a newly created loop hole law.

7. Hopefully by this time, BIAL is getting frustrated with all these and public is also equally enraged by believing these misinformation . Now go to BIAL with an offer to buy them out .

There you go, now AAI have taken over BIA, we chased the British out of India, so chasing BIAL out is a cakewalk

santsub's picture

Hello Guys! BIAL Meet?

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I was travelling on work for 2 days and back now reading all the posts here on BIAL. I had proposed this a few days back again I am trying to initiate and see if we can arrange to talk to Mr Brunner from PRAJA's Side and get the story right? well it should atleast be a 2 hr meeting to get right answers. I hate to see Bangalore suffer again because of negligence.

At anycost AAI running BIA is like handing over Infosys or Tatas to GoI - sorry it may sound very blunt but thats the truth.  It will futher push Bangalore's image down. Lets not get that thought going.

mailabode's picture

RE:Can Govt/AAI take over BIA? - Submitted by Burnner on 2 Augus

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Hi Burnner, Santsub, and others,

If the 7 points above are true then why not Praja inform Bangalore's praja what the real story is?.

What's the use of meeting BIAL CEO Brunner and finding out the truth - if even after determining the truth the citizens are still in the dark about all that?. Shouldnt the exercise be followed up to its logical end?. Would it be possible to create an awareness campaign to share the truth(whatever that may be) with the common public?. There needs to be a mechanism(a weekly Praja publication or whatever) by means of which Praja is well known to all the public and people are aware of what Praja's views are regarding all citizens's issues. The common man should know Praja is a people's organization by the public, of the public and for the public.

Regards.

 

Devesh's picture

RE: One final message ...

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Amaku, sorry you feel that way. I cannot help it if you take my quotes out of context, squeeze it to your own ideas, and then criticise me for the distortion.

Since you have indicated you will not read any further messages, please scroll on past this reply, which is for the rest of readers.

1. Air India

GoI bought a 49% stake in AI in 1948, and a majority in 1953. At that time all air services were nationalised including domestic services. AI was a profitable airline, under pubic sector management, all the way in to the late '70s. It was one the earliest customers of the B747, which was at that time a risky purchase, somewhat as the A380 is today - becuase of the uncertainties about filling up a 400+ passenger plane. Remember at that time, the next plane was was the B707/DC8 which were approx 150 passenger capacity. (The DC10 and L1011 were introduced very shortly after the B747).

The post was reponding to posts about AAI sucking up our taxes, when in fact AAI, contributes over 500 Cr in taxes back to GoI, not including about 300Cr service tax most of which is collected from passengers as part of the PSF. I interpreted BialTerminal's statement to read as without GoI support AI would have gone belly up.  I clarified that AI was profitable even in public sector control up till the 1970's, when excessive and harmful interference and mismanagement by the IAS mandarins, and unscrupulous politicians, started causing the harm that has put AI and IC in this perilous position.

An example is the grounding of Indian Airline’s entire Airbus A320 fleet in 1990, after the Bangalore crash, by the V P Singh government (just because the A320 were purchased by the Rajiv Gandhi govt.), caused the airline operational and financial harm that they have never recovered from, even till today. I got this information first hand from my uncle who was Commercial Director of IC, and knew the full inside story.

2. Revolution in service delivery

My preface to the article is posted below. You be the judge of what I was trying to convey. My blog article is at http://aviation.deveshaga....

As my final post for the month of July, I reproduce a touching example of the revolutionary change occurring within the aviation sector in India. Indian Airlines is 100% government owned, and has mended its ways thanks to the competition from private sector airlines. A similar revolution has already occurred at the state owned BSNL, who is competing head on with the private telecom providers, and all the state owned banks, who are competing with their private counterparts.

It is time the mandarins at Rajiv Gandhi Bhavan free NACIL (Air India and Indian Airlines) and the Airport Authority of India from their clutches. They will compete and effectively.

3. Patience

I was doing a relative comparison. A 107 year old man is young when compared to a mountain. If the Tatas and NRN had the abundant patience of Brunner, they would have stuck with the project. This does not imply that NRN or the Tatas do not have patience.

4. Competition with Government

There is plenty of private-government competion everyday. I have an Airtel landline and a BSNL landline. IC and AI still compete with private carriers and public sector or government run foreign carriers.I have bank accounts with both public sector and private sector banks, and I watch both Doordarshan News and the hordes of private TV channels.

5. My right wing

In my opinion, government should exist only for foreign policy, security, and homeland management.  Government should most definitely not be in business. Provide only mandatory services. Everything else should be "privatised". All government controlled entities (like AAI) and companies should not have IAS officers, and if a government serving officer (say Secretary of Civil Aviation) wants to become the MD/CEO of AI, she/he should resign from the IAS. Government officers should practice the budget system of New Zealand, where they bid for the budget.

Effectively make three entities. Government. Public. Private.

ZERO income tax. 15% flat GST on all transactions, except uncooked food and medicines. Pay Rs. 10 per kg of car/bike weight per year for road use. Pay fair market value for every service you use i.e. no subsidies. For the underpriveledged introduce a system of food coupons which gives a fixed amount of subsidy against the ration card.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

Meeting BIAL

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SS, instead of Mr. Brunner, may I propose meeting Mr. Marcel Hungerbuehler. He is the Chief OPERATIONS Officer, and in my dealings with him, I have found him to be engaging, very practical, and open.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
narayan82's picture

BIAL vs HAL

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Amaku, You raised a valid point, which I had mentioned earlier. I too dont see how HAL would provide competition for BIAL. The only competition would be "which airport can I get to faster."? And than frankly, is not the airport's problem nor should it be. I feel HAL will only intensify the problem we are facing and I still do not see it being a majority deicision (keeping HAL open.) I dont see "public opinion" for it, as stated by other media giants. I don't see how intefering with BIAL's capacity growth is benefetial to anyone! It all seems to me to be one BIG ploy!
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Devesh's picture

RE: Can Govt/AAI take over BIA ?

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A simple answer is yes.

Two parts of the Concession Agreement come to mind.

First the license. This is renewed every two years. 

7.6 Licence
7.6.1 Grant of Licence
GOI shall use its good offices and assist BIAL for DGCA’s grant of an airport licence to BIAL initially valid for a period of two years to enable it to commence commercial operation no later than forty-five (45) days from the date of its application to DGCA, provided that BIAL shall have completed construction of the Airport in accordance with the terms of this Agreement and shall have complied with (i) the requirements of Rule 86 and Section A of Schedule V of the Aircraft Rules 1937, (ii) any special directions or guidelines issued by DGCA pursuant to Rule 133A of the Aircraft Rules 1937 and (iii) any other standard requirement of DGCA in connection with the issuance of an airport licence for a Major Airport.
7.6.2 Continuing Licence
Subsequent to the issue of airport licence under Article 7.6.1 above, GOI shall use its good offices and assist BIAL for DGCA’s renewal of said airport licence issued to BIAL for a further period of two years prior to the expiry of the airport licence issued for the immediately preceding two year period, no later than forty-five (45) days from the date of BIAL’s application to DGCA, provided that BIAL continues to comply in all material respects with (i) Applicable Law and the Aircraft Rules 1937, (ii) any special directions or guidelines issued by DGCA pursuant to Rule 133A of the Aircraft Rules 1937, (iii) the provisions of this Agreement and (iv) any other standard requirement of DGCA in connection with the issuance of an airport licence for a Major Airport (including the payment of all past dues owed to DGCA in connection with such licence) and provided that there are no outstanding breaches by BIAL under the current licence.

Article 9 of the CA deals with monitoring and performance of BIAL.

Article 13 deals with the termination of the agreement. 

One relevant part is :

13.5 Transfer of Airport
13.5.1 On exercise of a right of termination by GoI or BIAL under Article 13.4 of this Agreement, and without prejudice to any rights of BIAL to compensation all assets of BIAL shall be transferred to GoI or its nominee on the Transfer Date without payment (save for payment of the amounts specified in Article 13.4.1 or Article 13.4.2 as the case may be) and ...................

The CA can be terminated at the request of BIAL or GoI; Or for a BIAL default or GoI default.; or a Force Maejure. In all cases, the airport reverts to GoI or its nominee.

The CA is available for download from http://civilaviation.nic.in website.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

RE: BIAL vs HAL

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I too dont see how HAL would provide competition for BIAL. The only competition would be "which airport can I get to faster."? And than frankly, is not the airport's problem nor should it be.

Narayan, in fact it will be the other way around. You are right in your assessment. The primary selling point of HAL is its location. However, we fail to realise that the HAL will also make a good low cost terminal, ideally suited for regional traffic and low cost airlines. The economic boom in India has shown us, there is plenty of space for both a high cost high feature as well as a low cost low feature approach. 5 star restaurants run side by side with darshinis. So do the Business Class of Jet or KF alongside Deccan, Spice, and Indigo.

Due to the extreme overloading, we have never appreciated the true size of the HAL terminals. Even I found it hard to believe, till I saw it with my own eyes, the international departure hall at HAL is bigger than BIAL's.

I have been interacting with the AAI folks at Bangalore for 5 years now. They are very different from their lethargic bosses in Delhi, and even the airport directors we had since 2005 onwards. The 2nd rung management, i.e. GM level on down, are energetic and full of ideas. I see BIAL forcing HAL to raise their service levels and quality of infrastructure, becuase of competition.

We passengers or even industry are not the customers of the airport. It is the airlines. We are the airlines' customers. Two airports will allow for airlines to demand the best from either airport. BIAL in terms of value delivery, HAL in terms of service levels delivery.

Today, BIAL is the only airport in the country that charges for use of the PBB (Aerobridge). So airlines ask for a remote bay instead of paying. In absence of another airport, that is their only choice.

As an example of choice. Today Singapore Airlines, which I am sure we will all agree is one of the best airlines in the world, is loosing cargo business, in Bangalore. Why ? Because they have tied up with AI-SATS cargo terminal. And AI-SATS, despite significant improvements, is still way behind Menzies Bobba in readiness and service delivery. SQ cannot change, since it owns SATS, so importers are preferring airlines who use the Menzies terminal. I, as a cargo customer, can only request SQ to interact with SATS. I can go so far as to suggest they shift, but if they don't, I have a choice to move my business to another airline.

With HAL and BIAL operating. Airlines will demand better value. From BIAL lower prices, from HAL higher service. At the end of it, both airports will have to become leaner, meaner organisations, and we will benefit as a whole.

I reproduce an anonymous comment, I received on my blog, on March 19th. I think it is very relevant, not about airports, but more about market places in general.

There is more than enough commerce in Bangalore to support another airport. Speeding up travel of people and products only improves an economy.

The market place, consumers and producers, determine usage. Government can implement rules of conduct (procedures) but no one, including the self-proclaimed smartest people in the world, often found working in government, can accurately predict a marketplace. The market place determines itself.

If consumers of airport services do not find the airport a convenient and profitable place to do business, it will not be used.

Ultimately, it is the competitive market place that demands strong value propositions, that will squeeze out and ensure that the PPP is free of corruption.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
kbsyed61's picture

What about 60 years and perpetual ownership arguement !

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 Pls correct me if I am wrong. From the post it seems, GOI can take control of the BIAL at any time? If that's the case what about the arguements of 60 years/ownership in perpetuity/no exit clauses? 

 With regards to Probe by legislature committee, is the probe balance in investigating  only the airport amenities? Shouldn't the probe include all aspects of shortcomings including unfinshed roads/intersections/ped crossings?

 

vvr's picture

Are our fearless leaders

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preparing for a long drawn out war of attrition with Goliath to wear him down and let him slowly bleed to death? Or will they go for the quick kill? Or will they extract their “pound of flesh”, declare that BIAL is indeed world class and move on to their next prey?  

In any event I laud Mr. DK Shiv Kumar’s effort to upgrade BIAL to bus stand standards. I have not traveled a lot by bus in the state but I bet our bus stands are something special.

Two reports on this caught my eye. One in the DH – ““There is no seating arrangement, public toilets and VIP lounge. It is in total disarray.”  The other in the Hindu – “They alleged that the airport had no facilities compared to the Hyderabad international airport, and passengers, including VIPs, were put to hardship”. Aha, the magic word – “VIPs".

I have said this before and will say it again. Mr. Brunner is committing a cultural faux pas by denying the respect our hard working VIPs deserve. After all serving the poor people of this state is hard work and they get paid a pittance. Is it too much to ask for small mercies like a special lounge?

Burnner's picture

RE:What about 60 years and perpetual ownership arguement !

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It really does'nt matter, our govt is capable of completly negating this BIAL contract, even if it means creating a new law in the spur of the moment or by proving a blatant lie to be a fact.

With all the recent bribery scandal going on at Seimens, they will not even think about giving more money to our politicians and ofcourse politicians will not move their fingers until their pockets are filled up. To me, seeing BIAL running our airport around next year timeframe looks grim.  This entire situation leaves a bad taste in the mouth of a foreign investor and common man like myself.

Just my 2 cents!

BIAL is like Enron / Union Carbide

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//This entire situation leaves a bad taste in the mouth of a foreign investor and common man like myself.//

ROTFL!!!

People do not have a problem with GMR lead HIAL. Hyderabad's new airport is miles ahead in aesthetics, quality and effeciency. It is there for all to see how incompetent the so called "western" MNCs such as Siemens and Zurich Airports are. 

We have seen our share of Enrons and Union Carbides. There are hundreds of investors waiting to invest in BIAL and why on earth should we be scared about the faults on part of BIAL.

I find it funny and outright hilarious that the management of BIAL is waving the flag of foreigner "protection" in order to cover it's own faults. 

 

MNCs commit mistakes as well

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It is a myth that MNCs do stuff much better than Indian companies. The proof is there for us to see when this so called German-Swiss combo could not even fix the leaks in the customs of BIAL.
kbsyed61's picture

HAL airport to be run by private???????

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" ..

5. My right wing

In my opinion, government should exist only for foreign policy, security, and homeland management. ..."

I bet we are for no government in airports, road transports and am sure we are against government running the BDA. The other day I had raised a question about government runing BDA operations and but didn't get any response.

I am glad that we are slowly moving towards transport system free of government participation.

amaku's picture

RE: BIAL vs HAL,

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Narayan82,

I completely agree with you. I have a really bad feeling that HAL will be reopened, and our wonderful AAI will take over BIAL, no connectivity improvements -- nothing.

Mcadambi,

I don't for a moment believe MNCs don't make mistakes, my point in the entire BIAL saga has been:

  • Siemens has been played by the master politicians, corruption, bribes etc. has left them way short of funds to even complete phase 1. GMR on the other hand were either lucky or more likely, much smarter and adept at navigating the political waters.
  • I find it laughable when people hold up AAI or any govt. agency anywhere in the world as a model of effeciency. I would have no problem at all if BIAL ended up in the hands of any other private entity. This entire 'reopen HAL' campaign has hidden agendas and so called 'facts' thrown up are all phony or irrelevant.

The bottom line on government for me is this 'one deserves the government one elects' and on this score the people of Karnataka, unfortunately have gone from bad to worse, don't know about the latest one we've elected so I won't include them in this.

I know that large portions (more than 50% in many cases) of project budgets end up in politicians pockets and in many cases it is not even accompanied by the pretense of starting work on them.

I firmly believe govt. organizations are by their very nature set up to be fiefdoms and effeciency is not ever a factor or objective in their creation.

-amaku

amaku's picture

Is this true???

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Will Murthy Come Back to BIAL board?

http://timesofindia.india...

I fervently hope it is true and he will come back to head the board. I have complete faith in his ability and integrity to lead BIAL out of this mess.

--amaku

Burnner's picture

mcadambi... only BIAL please

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"It is there for all to see how incompetent the so called "western" MNCs such as Siemens and Zurich Airports are. "

" The proof is there for us to see when this so called German-Swiss combo could not even fix the leaks in the customs of BIAL"

Please use just "BIAL" in your discussions. No need to make inflammatory comments on entire "western", "german" & "swiss" countries/people by generalizing.  Your argument is about BIAL, so let it be just BIAL. I'm sure you can get your point across with out using any biggitry tones.

vvr's picture

Isn't there an Indian MNC in BIAL?

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My understanding is that there is also an Indian MNC as a part of the consortium who are the primary civil contractors. But I am sure they screwed up only because their founders were Danes.

So, in the xenophobic vein let us damn the Swiss, the Germans and the Danes!

It is good to know that no Indian was responsible for this mess.

 

Devesh's picture

GoI cannot take over BIAL at ANYTIME

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Pls correct me if I am wrong. From the post it seems, GOI can take control of the BIAL at any time?

Syed, please see my post http://praja.in/bangalore.... BIAL airport reverts to GoI or its nominee, in the event of a default. So the 60 year argument does hold water.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

Systems free of government

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Amen to your wishes Syed.

In fact a sure way of avoiding corruption in PPP is just that. Public - Private, should not mean Govt - Private. In India we have come to equate Public with Government.

Singapore Airlines, British Airways, and many world airlines began as 100% government owned airlines, but the secret to their success was that Government did not interfere in their operations. Today they may or may not be government owned. This is not the case in India.

We constantly see "public sector" employees unions threateing or actually striking when their companys' Govt. ownership is attempted to be sold to the actual public.

This must change. Public Sector should become clearly different from Government sector. Electricity, transport, energy, core sector, and communications should be the leaders in this change.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

Let us please focus on the subject of this thread

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Dear Prajagale

Let us please focus back on the subject of this thread. What steps do you propose to prevent corruption in large PPPs.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
mailabode's picture

Mcadambi: To me your

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Mcadambi: To me your argument seems erroneous, because(let me go by your own yardstick):

1) Siemens is a reputed company and has completed umpteen number of successful projects worldwide. Its reputation itself came about because of its successes.

2) Unique Zurich is also reputed and has constructed an airport that has been voted the best and 2nd best in Europe for some years now. Its been voted the 6th best airport in the world. Apart from that it has constrcuted a very good airport in a relatively small space with the most modern allround facilities(operational efficiency).

Like HIAL (or RGIA) is there for everybody to see, so is Simens's projects and their outstanding records and also Unique's Zurich Airport there for people to see. Your reason stands negated now. Tangible realities cannot become myths unlike what you said.

Now for some perspective: Hyderabad airport did not run into innumerable or unnecessary hurdles created by politicians which is quite unlike what happenned to BIAL since 2001. HIAL was not forced to start and stop umpteen times. HIAL did not have 2 Bhoomi Puja ceremonies. HIAL was not milked anywhere close to the extent BIAL was milked. If HIAL had the same extreme troubles BIAL had it too would have ended up like BIAL or worse. How can BIAL take the rap for foul play imposed on them?. If we cannot recognise the underlying facts that led to this debacle, then we also have to accept as fact that our Politicians and Government have always done a good job and that there was never any corruption and there is not any corruption(there is never a "Yes" and "No" and answer to any question). Then we must also accept as a fact that Deve Gowda was not and is not a corrupt man.

A foreigner is also a human being like us. A foreigner who is put in chains and disallowed to do his job properly cannot be expected to miraculously do any useful work during that time just like any Indian cannot. I mean he cannot be expected to do miracles just because he is a foreigner- the laws of physics work the same for him as it does for us.

If we are looking for corrupt foreign origin people who are destroying our country in a big way with their mindless corruption and incompetence then its not BIAL we need to be persuing - the big fish by miles is in New Delhi.

Also i think its wrong to stereotype the German orgin people with the arrogant and racist British of the Raj - we need to apply more perspective. Skin colour does not make both of them same.

Those are my views.

_________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.hindu.com/2006...

BIAL had originally awarded two EPC contracts, one estimated at Rs. 550 crore to L&T and another valued at Rs. 326 crore to the Siemens Group.

"The board agreed on Friday that the expansion work on the terminal building will be completely done by the existing EPC contractors, L&T and Siemens. This is an absolute technical necessity. This portion of the additional work cannot be assigned to a different contractor," an official said.

silkboard's picture

so coming back to the topic

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[it will be nicer for us all if people stuck to the topics on these threads. There are plenty of discussions on HAL vs BIAL or BIAL, plus, you can always create your own if you have something new to add]

Does anyone have the latest news on a PIL which asked for BIAL to be brought under RTI? I remember that High Courts had either ruled favorably or had orderd that BIAL be covered under RTI. Ad then, BIAL must have appealed. Whats the latest?

Would I be right in saying that PPP gather controversy during the planning and investment phase. That is where pro-active transparency is required. I would say that it should be the responsibility of the PPP (I mean the venture, BIAL in this case) to pro-actively place all the documents it exchanges with the government authorities in open public domain. Penalizing government bodies for being lax in "pro-active disclosure" is a bit tough to implement - they have so much information to share, one can't really set the boundaries for what should be disclosed pro-actively. But in case of PPPs, the focus is so much narrower. every interaction you have with the government, period. And any violation should be penalized (but how? - reduced stake in PPP? Public service of X days? increased allocation in CSR funds?)

mailabode's picture

Hi Silk board. Just in case

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Hi Silk board. Just in case IF it was about what i had written:

Mine was only a reply to Mcadambi. It was totally related to corruption and its effects on BIAL in comparison with HIAL, and a lot of foreign PPPs are getting involved now and so "foreign". It was not out of context.

Even the news clip from The Hindu that i posted was in reply and to pint out who must have done the actual construction jobs.

To put things in perspective i went only as far as was pertinent to the point. If its pointed out what eactly was out of context then i would be most willing to clarify. Going strictly by the rule i guess a lot of comments posted here including my reply may be moved to another thread and i would be agreeable to that.

Thanks.

bayern's picture

Mcadambi...

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Please don't bring your ignorant racist biases here, there is about BIAL, no need to make this about Indians vs Germans, Indians vs Swiss, or India vs west. 

And FYI... The GMR led consortium which built HIAL also includes Malaysian Airports Holding Berhad (MAHB), so please check your facts right

 

kbsyed61's picture

Understanding PPPs !

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I think in order to understand whether BIAL as a PPP model has PASSED or FAILED, it is important to understand the virtues and pitfalls of PPP concept. There is a very good paper on PPP in infrastructure sectors. It is a very comprehensive paper needing deep reading and understanding of all the aspects.

Closing the Infrastructure Gap - The Role of PPPs.

PPP stands for Pubic Private Participation. The concept of PPP got the prominence with, governments of the day found that it can not fulfill its obligation of funding for all the needed development projects. They found the PPP concept to be more conducive for its shortcomings in not able to fund the projects. Infrastructure sector has been the most common sector among countries where PPP concept has been used and continuing to be used.

PPP offers benefits in terms of:

  1. Cost of investment to be spread over the life time
  2. On-time completion of projects and on-budget delivery
  3. Transfer of risks to the private partner
  4. Lowering of teh project cost as well as overall lifecycle costs.
  5. With satisfaction merits included, more room for strong customer service orientation.
  6. Enables the public partner to focus on outcome-based public value they are trying to create.

Challenges in PPP models:

  1. Government need a clear framework that confers adequate attention on all phases of life-cycle approach
  2. Proper allocation of risks even in condition of pronounced uncertainty about future needs.
  3. Unlock the value from undervalued and underutilized assets


PPPs alone are not a Panacea. Rather they are one tool governments have at their disposal for infrastructure.

More to come on PPP concepts.

Syed

kbsyed61's picture

Pitfalls of PPPs !

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 As with any project and venture, PPP projects also can be a failure if it is not executed properly. In this respect Public partner carries the greater responsibility in ensuring that the PPP projects deliver the outcome that is in line with expectations and cost. As with any other model, PPP has also some pitfalls that needs to be taken care of for making the PPP project a success.

  1. Poor Setup - Flaws in initial PPP design, legislation and guidance. A common mistake is placing so many restrictions, conditions and expectations of risk transfer on private partner that would make a financially sound deal becomes impossible to structure.
  2. Lack of clarity on Project Objectives - Lack of consensus on project purposes and expected outcomes. Govt often tries to compensate for this failure with overspecifying inputs.
  3. Too much focus on the transaction - Governments tries to focus more on financing part rather than operational focus.
  4. Application of inappropriate risk model - A common risk is amount of use the infrastructure will receive, to the private sector even when contractors has no control over demand factors.
  5. Lack of internal capacity - Common failure is public/government's failure to sufficiently oversee the project-implementation.
  6. Failure to Realize value for money - Governments fails to understand the value of money being invested, specially in borrowing and tendering cost.
  7. Inadequate Planning - Governments failure to take proper account of the market in the planning phase.

  
 Syed

Devesh's picture

BIAL not under RTI

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The Karnataka Information Commissioner had ruled that BIAL was subject to RTI. The courts overruled the KIC.

I think Syed will have the best and latest information.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD

Blogs speak peans about HIAL

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The facts are there on the internet to see. For me it does not matter whether a cat is black or white, unless it can catch mice. There are mice running in the Customs and Toilets of BIAL. Enuf said. Whether you use German mouse traps or Malaysian mouse traps - the objective was to catch mice. Mr Brunner and co have failed. Lets accept that. This is the FACT.

They have messed up cargo to such a extent that i really do not want to waste my time blogging on it. So much for their professionalism or dedication. It just looks like they were in a hurry to make a quick buck.

I read that Mr Vivek Kulkarni, ex IT secretary of GoK has filed a PIL in the Supreme Court about the CA agreement in light of the MRTP Act. I sincerely pray that the Supreme Court invalidates the CA.

Pass the buck - BIAL learns from India

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Pass the buck on GoK and blame corruption here. Nice excuse for substandard quality.

BIAL is another Enron in the making.

Other MNCs

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Hundreds of MNCs function in India and not many blame corruption for their bad quality. IBM has been providing good quality for Airtel and no one complains.

It is the most lame excuse i have seen from BIAL blaming GoK for the former's incompetency.

How I wish the IATA survey on BIAL could have been done in this year itself!

kbsyed61's picture

Mcadambi - the difference lies in 2 govts !

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Mcadambi,

You are right. There are facts out for public to decide why 2 projects have acheive their respective sucsess/failures of varying degrees.

HIAL project received the full support of AP government throughout its implementation. The AP govt went all out to support the project. The private partners also showed the same zeal and efforts. The result is obvious for all fo us to see. On a whole the project was well conceptualized, implemented and executed. Also that doesn't mean everything is perfect in HIAL project. As in any projects, it also has its woes and shortcomings. But these can be corrected, overall it has met the expectations.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/17/stories/2008071756860100.htm

Now in BIAL, one needs to answer whether it got the same support from state govt or not like AP govt. At one point govt was ready to scrap the project. Isn't this a fact? Private partner played its part to minimise its financial risks and losses given the political environment. If my govt is not enthusiastic about the project, why would the private partner be generous enough to pump in more investment. One thing you must acknowledge that, inspite of hostile environment in political circles towards airport, because of private participation you have a completed project and it is operational. This is due to the nature of PPP not because of Siemens/Zurich/L&T. You and me may call it a factory shed, glorified bus stand etc. Otherwise look at the projects which remains still incomplete even after 3 years or more. Elevated road to elelctronic city is one such example.

On the same token, Siemens/Zurich/L&T also can not escape the blame for BIAL's shortcomings. The quantum of blame for each of the participants can be ascertain only by an honest and truthful probe. Until then for fairness and balanced approach, held all of them responsible.

Basically, one doesn't become "Mannina Maga" by sheer procaliming only. It would requires the ncessary zeal and efforts on the ground. For HIAL project, YSR deserves the appreciation for his leadership in HIAL project. In coming months, we would certainly would know if our representative would rise above their narrow personal gains and egos.

Syed

Increase transparency

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If indeed as you claim that the GoK was hostile to the promoters of BIAL, then why not agree to be transparent?

YSR's Govt was certainly not a mai-baap sarkar role to GMR. One cannot expect GoK to play the role of mai-baap for BIAL.  

Siemens/Zurich/L&T got the CA reviewed twice on their calling and now when the GoK was even willing to offer HAL to the former, then why not take it up?

But I agree to what you said about the Siemens led consortium wanting to minimise financial losses. They did manage to keep costs low - by sacrificing quality as we all know it.

The difference now is that they want to make a quick buck.

mailabode's picture

Re: Increase transparency

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Mcadambi, 

If indeed as you claim that the GoK was hostile to the promoters of BIAL, then why not agree to be transparent?  

Would you pay a bribe(out of compulsion) and get a job done and then go and tell the authorities you gave a bribe in spite of the fact you will be jailed?. I dont think you are one of the handful of people in India who has never paid a bribe.                    But if you decide that whatever happens we need the truth, then you are free to investigate and bring out the complete truth about what all really happenned from 2001 on - but until you prove your allegation, BIAL gets the benefit of doubt.

YSR's Govt was certainly not a mai-baap sarkar role to GMR. One cannot expect GoK to play the role of mai-baap for BIAL.

You are generalising when what is needed is specifics. No one else but you asked that GOK should have played mai-baap for BIAL. All that was asked is that Deve Gowda and other politicians should have allowed BIAL to do its job and not caused a 3 year project to have extended from 3 years to 7 years(i assume you know the value of an extra 4 years). All that was aksed is that Deve Gowda should not have milked BIAL as much as he did. Are you supporting corruption?.

Siemens/Zurich/L&T got the CA reviewed twice on their calling and now when the GoK was even willing to offer HAL to the former, then why not take it up?

Oh i see now that you want HAL open. BIA was started according to a GOI plan. It was the GOI's idea to close down HAL when the new airport was ready as early as 1991. And all the bidders came only on that basis. So we simply stick to that. Let me ask you- why are you so adamant that you will change one of the founding principles of the project?. And further Bangalore does not need 2 airports. If HAL is reopened BIA becomes a waste - reasons have been listed by many people before. Only on a socialist basis can HAL and BIAL operate together successfully - not on sound business principles.

But I agree to what you said about the Siemens led consortium wanting to minimise financial losses. They did manage to keep costs low - by sacrificing quality as we all know it.

I agree they had to keep costs low to compensate for the paucity in funds due to the payouts given to the netas, specially to angel Gowda. You should ask Gowda why he caused this compromise in quality - would you?.

Devesh's picture

Bangalore grew out of control and BIAL ran out of money

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Guys, the core of the issue is very simple.

Bangalore air traffic grew 255% in the 3 years BIAL was constructing the airport. The original terminal design for wasonly 4.5 milllion passenger, later downgraded to 3.8 million. Between Apr 05 and Apr 08air traffic went from 4.1 million to 10.2 million.

Firstly this level of growth is simply not anticipated, let alone be planned, or even less, catered for. Rs. 380Cr is simply not enough seed money, and BIAL ran out of funds needed to make the much needed expansion. Check out my article http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com/2008/05/history-of-passenger-terminal-at-bial.html

This has led to compromises and an over-dependence on income and UDF from day 1.

We can all over the place, but the bottom line is simple.........It's all about the money, honey. :)

Which is why we at Praja should do all we can to get to the books of accounts of BIAL. Understand the money trail.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
kbsyed61's picture

Devesh, Could you pls take that Lead !

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Devesh,

 Could you pls take that lead in organizing a meeting between Praja and BIAL management?

 

 Syed.

kbsyed61's picture

Devesh, you are right .......

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Devesh,

You are absolutely correct. As of today, BIAL is not under RTI obligation. Karnataka high court has overruled the earlier ruling of KIC which gave a ruling that BIAL is covered under RTI. It seems it is a long drawn battle from both sides.

It is very interesting, at one end people are demanding BIAL to be brought under RTI obligations. At the same time, there are people demanding BIAL's CA to scrapped under MRTPC act. So far none of these efforts have succeeded. Coming months should settle these issues in Supreme Court. To me both the issues are NOT mutually exclusive.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Transportation/MRTPC_dismisses_petition_on_BIALs_monopoly_issue/articleshow/3228014.cms

P.S. I am for BIAL to be in RTI net. It is a lesson for Governments to introduce the transparency and RTI obligation on all the upcoming PPP projects.

Syed

Clarifications

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I have to post some clarifications:

1.) I am NOT against BIAL. What i am against is their anti-competitive stance and how they dodge on transparency issues. Perhaps such is the pitfalls in PPP that we are experiencing afresh with the BIAL saga. Maybe this is a time to learn.

2.) I am for competition in the infrastruture sector. Only when there is good competition, the economy benefits.

3.) I am not a JD(S) supporter and i think Shri Deve Gowdaji is too busy playing cricket with Shri Ashok Kheny, although the former PM is on his last wicket.....

4.) The last time i checked Seimens is a multibillion dollar firm and it is hilarious when they run out of funds for such a measly project.

There has been an appeal to the promoters of BIAL to run HAL for domestic or short haul operations. Yet, they do not listen to the plight of people. All they want is to make a quick buck in a short time. The very fact that they have provided a barely functional airport is so evident.

I am not hostile to Germans given that i love their BMWs et al. But i am critical about the deeply flawed execution by M/s Siemens, Mr Brunner and co.

amaku's picture

Syed, BIAL, RTI & Transparency

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Syed,

I don't hold out much hope of ever being able to get to the bottom of this mess. I think we, the people, deserve nothing less than the absolute truth. Like always, the truth will only emerge if we can follow the money. My reasons for the pessimism are:

  • BIAL management will fight tooth & nail against this for the simple reason that they have paid huge sums as donations,bribes, etc. which is clearly against the law. The managers and folks in charge definitely face conviction and incarceration in their own countries, even if not in India, for at a minimum, encouraging and/or engaging in corrupt practices
  • The beneficiaries of this corruption "our own fearless leaders" have no interest in the truth or transparency. They are in the enviable position today of "having their cake and eating it too" given that they can make maximum political hay with the current situation.

The independance of our judiciary, outside of the highest levels, is suspect at best. My suspicion is that any effort to get at the truth will be scuttled before it can get anywhere.

Unfortunately we in India do not have the kind of prosecutors who are empowered to and will make the deals (plea bargains, etc.) to be able to go after the big fish in the interest of the greater good (the taxpayer).

Forgive my pessimism and don't get me wrong, I applaud your effort and nothing will make me happier than if I'm proved wrong and the truth is laid bare for all to see.

--amaku

Burnner's picture

Re: Clarifications

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" 4.) The last time i checked Seimens is a multibillion dollar firm and it is hilarious when they run out of funds for such a measly project."

Seimens and others are quite capable of raising capital for BIAL, they just don't want to invest now. They are probably waiting till all the petitions, lawsuits & house committee hearing against BIAL are settled before pouring in more money.

And lets not forget, there is this petition/lawsuit filed to prevent BIAL from expansion! Its hilarous that on one side we are screaming to the whole world that BIAL does'nt want to expand, then on the other side we also file petitions to prevent BIAL from expansion. This is hypocrisy at its best.

" I am not hostile to Germans given that i love their BMWs et al. "

Nice to know that u don't  have prejudices against germans

kbsyed61's picture

RTI is not a PANACEA for transparency !

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 I just wanted everybody to be cautious that using Right to Information (RTI) act need not get desired information fully and complete. RTI will not make everything transparent. RTI should not be taken as synonym for in-built transparency processes. In other words, RTI is not the Panacea for transparency in public interest projects.

It is a good tool to gather info from government and its agencies. People have benefited from it.

 According to me, use of RTI is still going thru its infant stages. We need to continously use it to make it a well oiled & run machine.

 We should also be proud of our democracy that is maturing everyday to provide the tools like RTI. 

Syed 

tsubba's picture

but it is a major step

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imagine. 10 years back we could not even think about getting any information. now atleast we realize value of information. it may be crude and in infancy. but need to exercise that right.RTI as it exists is perhaps not the panacea. but the idea that you have right to information is.

Katta wants HAL - issues a thinly veiled threat to BIAL

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http://www.deccanherald.c...

My comments: 

What a delightful development! BIAL has been censured time and again and even requested to operate in HAL. Now, a situation might arise when GoK might rescind the CA with BIAL.

It is not too late for BIAL to see wisdom. The bloated egos of their management fail to look beyond enriching their pockets with expat pay packages. If only some were reading this!

From the article: 

"Disclosing that the State government would “negotiate” with BIAL on setting right the lapses in the construction and modifying the MoU to provide for retaining HAL airport, the minister said central intervention would be sought if the BIAL refused to concede to the demands.

“The government is firm on its stand on rectifying the lapses in construction. We would terminate the agreement with BIAL and entrust the work on expanding the airport to a different company if the latter fails to set-right the lapses,” the minister affirmed."

silkboard's picture

Paying the price ...

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... for lack of transparency, even though I will like to sympathize with BIAL ('untimely' growth in air traffic etc) and the promise of PPP concept for such projects. Once you do things behind the scenes, however small or insignificant those might be, you are at the mercy of government mood swings.

People are for ever, but governments last only 5 years in best cases. So anything that is expected to sustain for more than 5 years, you be wise on whose confidence is more critical to win.

s_yajaman's picture

If talk was a measure of governance

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One thing all our representatives are good at is talk.  In the three years that the airport was under construction not one step was taken on connectivity.  Not one light was put on NH-7.  Not one flyover was built on NH7 at critical junctions.  In that BIAL finished an airport despite all the hurdles thrown in.

Yet the MPs have the audacity to call BIAL a bus-stand, etc.  They need to have their heads and eyes examined. 

Frankly, I dont know what the fuss is all about.  I am a frequent user of the airport.  I am very satisfied with the operational efficiency there.  Yes, it could have been 10,000 m2 bigger.  But each time I fly, I find the check-in queues smaller and the number of vacant seats more. 

The airline industry is going to look quite different - this from the mouths of BA and Cathay CEOs and not from me.  They are all struggling for a business model for oil prices @USD100+.  In this uncertain period, no one will make investments in a hurry.  I am sure BIAL is evaluating traffic scenarios to assess realistic growths (255% in 3 years is not sustainable).  If I give free seats away, it does not take much effort to fill a plane.

Best of luck to Brunner.

Srivathsa

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

bayern's picture

Whats up with Katta?

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“A functioning airport has been closed no where in the world to pave for the new one,” he substantiated.

Obviously he does'nt even know whats going on in his own country, let alone the world. Did he forget begumpet airport and other airports which were closed for a new one?  God bless our IT & Biotech industries .

Apparently it all just comes down to reopening HAL at any cost.

kbsyed61's picture

Is this an admission by govt?

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From the news it seems, government is admitting to the fact it didn't do a good job in BIAL project. Better late than never.

For all these years since the airport construction started, no politician ever commented or showed any concern on the quality of constructions of airport and amenities its going to provide. Looks like better sense is prevailing on the government to protect its asset. Even now it is not too late to make up for the lost oppurtunity.

GOk has a golden oppurtunity to rectify/correct its acts by actively involving itself in the project in ensuring that airport is indeed an asset and a landmark in the land of Karnataka. They still have time to deliver that promise of good connectivity. Rhetorics need not end just with "open HAL" promise.

BIAL should reconsider operating out of HAL

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Much fireworks would not have taken place if BIAL chose to operate some flights out of HAL. In any case, a lot of passengers who used to travel to Chennai and Hyderabad from HAL do not do it nowadays. It is these passengers who might come back resulting in a net increase in air traffic when BIAL + HAL operate tandem.

According to this Livemint article:

http://www.livemint.com/2008/08/07000110/Foreign-airlines-flock-to-Indi.html

Foreing airlines are increasing their flight frequency. With more room to grow - with HAL and resources for the second runway at BIAL - air traffic will increase more, thereby resulting in good business for BIAL and when it also runs out of HAL.

I do not know why the management at BIAL fail to recognise such simple facts.

If they had agreed to operate out of HAL, then a lot of criticisms would have not surfaced in the first place.

bialterminal's picture

re:BIAL should reconsider operating out of HAL

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mcdambi,

I have a question about this line from your post ->

Much fireworks would not have taken place if BIAL chose to operate some flights out of HAL. In any case, a lot of passengers who used to travel to Chennai and Hyderabad from HAL do not do it nowadays. It is these passengers who might come back resulting in a net increase in air traffic when BIAL + HAL operate tandem.

question - 

Then, all the issues being raised about connectivity, water leaks in ATC, peak hour passenger capacity, so called upcoming temporary tents, factory look, the "monopoly" issue, the ever contentious 150 km issue and the CA having been to BIAL's advantage and the pro HAL lobby claiming that the agreement is "not written in stone/concrete" (the list can go on to pick out the faults if we want to) ..are "fireworks" that were a farce? They were not really issues and would not have been raised if the pro HAL lobby was satisfied by HAL being kept open? Just goes to show that the numerous accusations and issues being raised about the new airport do not hold up.

And for those who have been stating ->  "do not give me that the agreement (CA) is invoilable"..."the agreement is not written in stone/concrete"..... the past few posts have proved beyond doubt how difficult it is to make an agreement stick & that the government can do pretty much what it wants based on politics..pretty much scrapping the agreement based on a fault finding mission. I do not want to tell you I told you so :-) I will be the least surprised to see HAL reopen. The sad part is that the reopening is not based on sane facts but  just on whims & fancies for which certain individuals/entities may go as far as to even blame the weather in Devanahalli.

amaku's picture

Whats up with Katta -- part 2?

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For those that have access to hinduonline, check this out:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...0150460900.htm

MR K. V. Rangaswami, President — Construction, Larsen & Toubro, has this to say:

Are there are any delays?

"The only delay is due to land acquisition. If the land is given to us on time, the projects are completed on or ahead of schedule. The main planks on which L&T has done its marketing are timely completion and quality. It is our performance in Bangalore and Hyderabad (airports) that brought us the Delhi and Mumbai jobs."

and

L&T is involved in all the four major airport projects in the country in one way or the other. What has been your experience?

"For the Bangalore airport, we were also equity partners. Initially, discussions on the concession agreement took a long time as there was no precedence or a model concession agreement to follow. The L&T-Siemens-Zurich Airport consortium was competing with Hoctief, which manages the Dusseldorf airport.

The concession agreement took a long time in Bangalore but the Hyderabad airport actually benefited as it had a model to follow. It took us almost three years to finalise the agreement.

The point is, any project should be speedily executed. What you conceptualise today may go out of fashion in three years. On the whole, our experience in Bangalore and Hyderabad has been good."

Whose word would you take on quality? The President of L&T Construction or the Hon. Minister Katta?

On another note, I sincerely hope Mr. Katta and the Government do dig into the BIAL finances and expose the truth.

Do they have the guts? Do they have their own skeletons to hide? I don't have answers to any of these questions.

--amaku

Burnner's picture

Re:BIAL should reconsider operating out of HAL

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"If they had agreed to operate out of HAL, then a lot of criticisms would have not surfaced in the first place."

 

You are absolutely right. All the criticism thrown at BIAL are complete BS, only to get HAL open.

Evidently all the BIAL bashing are simply in-your-face lies to distort people's views on BIAL. Afterall, our new govt's election pitch was "elect us, we will re-open HAL". To me it looks like the govt is holding BIAL hostage

HAL

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Whether HAL was to be kept open or not would still not absolve BIAL of it's own maladies such as the flawed cargo facilities, flawed ATC, leaks, corruption, lack of transparency et al. It is just that these issues would have been minor and tackled in a less confrontational manner with BIAL even if HAL was kept open.

IMO, if HAL was open, BIAL would have had more room, space and time to properly plan BIAL and avoid the above mentioned issues.

All of this boils down to accessibility and competition. I get to choose which mobile operator i want and even within two months from now, there will be Mobile Number Portability - increasing the competition between operators. Why can't i choose my airports?

Stuff about lack of RTI scope of BIAL and how the CA is at odds with MRTP Act will still exist even if HAL was kept open. Only they would not be as shrill and as harsh as they are now.

When BIAL is harming the economic interests of Bengaluru - there are forces that will retaliate where they have to.

All is fair in love and war honey!

Devesh's picture

RE : Devesh, Could you pls take that Lead !

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Hi Syed

I can approach BIAL for a meeting. For that I will need to know the agenda for the meeting, the reason, and composition of the delegation.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
idontspam's picture

What choice means to me

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Let me tell you what choice means to me. If you and I were flying to Hyderabad and I want to choose BIA to get there and you HAL we should be able to do it. If there is an arrangement which forces me to choose HAL for a destination (like short haul) and BIA for others then it is not choice. Similarly if you want to fly to an international destination via HAL and I via BIA we should be able to do this? Is this kind of traffic sharing feasible? I dont think so and if it is not workable the choice argument is a farce.

Devesh's picture

RE: If talk was a measure of governance

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Srivathsa

In the three years that the airport was under construction not one step was taken on connectivity.  Not one light was put on NH-7.  Not one flyover was built on NH7 at critical junctions.

Again digressing from the subject of this thread, I partially disagree with you. NH7 was expanded from 2 lanes to 6. The fact that it was done a while back, has made it disappear from our memories.

Yes, I fully concur with you about flyovers. Traffic lights are not a panacea for a lack of pedestrian cross-overs be they under or over.

It is ironic that the BBMP and GoK have spent over 1600 crores  on road improvements on roads to the airport and making the road signal free, and now want to put in signals on a HIGHWAY to restrict flow of traffic.

Cooperation from BIAL is significantly lacking. SH104 (via Bagalur) is completed till the southern boundary of BIAL, but BIAL does not want to part with any its land to allow connectivity.

In that BIAL finished an airport despite all the hurdles thrown in 

Once the CA was signed, and BIAL achieved its financial closure, I am unable to ascertain what hurdles did you see being put in the way of BIAL, other than the trumpet ?

The BIAL project was completely within BIAL's control. Partially constructing an airport within 3 years is no rocket science. Sobha, routinely, puts up buildings for Infosys within 9 months. BIAL is still not fully constructed. Many buildings required for operations are not ready even today. The airlines offices, the crew offices, the air cargo and customs agents offices. On the airside also, there are significant shortcomings, especially on the service road which is hampering flow of cargo traffic.

I repeat my often said statement, an airport is much much more than a decent terminal building. As individuals we are over focussing on the terminal, and loosing sight of the operational efficiencies that BIAL was supposed to bring, especially in the area of cargo.

HAL's two cargo concessionaires MSIL and JWG were pathetic at best. But even with their miserable track record, cargo dwell time was 2 days. At BIAL it has increased to 3.5 days. As an SCM professional you will appreciate how this negatively impacts not just your company but India's productivity and competitiveness as a whole. It is also having its impact on BIAL since both cargo terminals are already saturating with imports while exports side is lying under-utilised.

BIAL is an "okay" airport, definitely superior to HAL on the terminal side, but let us not denude ourselves in to thinking it is a "world class" one. During my trip last week, I experienced the over-crowded restrooms at BIAL arrival, and saw that they is still no seating provision outside the terminal doors. It is hard to accept this level of work from a professional and well experienced organisation like Zurich Airport.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

RE: What choice means to me

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Hi IDS

Fully agree with you, and this is what I am proposing to the powers that are. My original proposal was for HAL traffic to be capped at 3 million initially and gradual increased by 0.25~0.5 million every year to a maximum of 6.5 million.

No restrictions on the destinations anywhere in India.

Let market forces rule, and let the market decide itself.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
vvr's picture

Re: HAL

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"If they had agreed to operate out of HAL, then a lot of criticisms would have not surfaced in the first place." 

What temerity on the part of BIAL to turn down our offer. We should definitely rescind our offer to them to manage our world-class bus stands without another thought. 

"In any case, a lot of passengers who used to travel to Chennai and Hyderabad from HAL do not do it nowadays. It is these passengers who might come back resulting in a net increase in air traffic when BIAL + HAL operate tandem"

Right, not only the passengers customarily flying between Bangalore and Chennai/Hyderabad but also between many more short haul city pairs that had forsaken air travel will return to traveling by air once HAL reopens. As you know, it has been reported that short haul passenger number have fallen all across the country ever since late May when  BIAL opened. In other words, reopening HAL will be a bonanza not only for BIAL but for all airports around te country.

 

“All of this boils down to accessibility and competition. I get to choose which mobile operator i want and even within two months from now, there will be Mobile Number Portability - increasing the competition between operators. Why can't i choose my airports?”

Completely agree. In a free market UTOPIA like Bangalore, we just have to break such a monopoly. Yes, we should be able to choose our airports. If the North can have BIAL, the south HAL, we in the east should have our RRAL (Ring Road Airport Limited) that many here in this very forum have been asking for repeatedly.

Since we are on a roll here. Why can’t I choose which electric company I get electricity from for the 10 hours or so a day that we do get electricity; why can’t I choose which water supply company that I get my contaminated water from; why can't I choose the garbage company to not  collect garbage from my street. The possibilities are endless. Oh, by the way, when we break the backs of these monopolies, will someone help me break the Presswallah cartel that operates in my neighborhood. Speaking of cartels, I heard a wild allegation the other day that there is a flyover-building cartel operating in Bangalore – nah, not possible, not in Bangalore.

“When BIAL is harming the economic interests of Bengaluru - there are forces that will retaliate where they have to. All is fair in love and war honey!”

Totally agree although I do not think I would have been able to summarize this as succinctly. When our economic interests are threatened we will fight back. We have been watching passively  all these days as the cost of doing business in Bangalore has gone up steadily -- it is expensive and hard to find international flights in and out of the city, due to the paucity of hotel rooms even sub-standard hotel rooms in the city go for between 200-300 USD/day, we are becoming less competitive in the IT business due to the fact that our programmers stuck in the perpetual traffic jams were becoming far less productive. Then there is the abysmal state of our infrastructure that causes businesses to think twice before investing etc. etc. Let us see, I have not even listed corruption -- you have to bribe somebody even to register a business.

On top of all this, BIAL has decided to put the airport out in the boondocks that requires a 150 rupee bus ride and made this foolish decision to charge each departing passenger a UDF of 25USD and thereby bring the whole economy of the city to its knees. That is it -- we will not take it any more. This is the proverbial straw that broke our patience.     

idontspam's picture

Opening the floodgates

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Ok... so from just ATR only to short haul only to ful fledged airport back in HAL... we have come a long way in screwing investors... and not to be left out the others are here to claim their pound of flesh...

K'taka taxi operators want space at BIA

Now you can be sure you will not find parking in this airport as well... not to mention all the super-safe omnis driving at 100KMPH on the NHAI and all the indicas parked in the trenches along the airport access road. Oh and this time we shouldnt forget to put up an open air toilet and garbage bins in P1, P2 & P3. I sorely miss the stench of urine and the stickyness of poo on the wheels when it rains and all the waste paper with left over food flying into the car in summer.

Like the old joke goes if Laloo cant make Bihar into another Japan he will ensure Japan becomes another Bihar

vvr's picture

Devesh,

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Devesh,

Thought I will jump in and frolic in this massively OT discussion...

"Again digressing from the subject of this thread, I partially disagree with you. NH7 was expanded from 2 lanes to 6. The fact that it was done a while back, has made it disappear from our memories"

The expansion of NH7 was part of the GQ/NSEW program of NHAI and had nothing to do with the airport. This program was launched and was well underway while the airport was still mired in controversy. It is not as if this was a part of some largesse from the state to the citizens and BIAL. The part that GoK was responsible for is the final link from NH7 to the airport. We all what happened to that. Connectivity, while it was reasonable all along (with a few sections within the city that needed  be taken care of) was made into a bugbear by some folks and fingers were pointed at BIAL. 

 

 

 

commonman's picture

I totally agree to you

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I totally agree to you idontspam…I find the fiasco over the airports really funny….first de wanted a new airport….wen t was comin up ppl started make a hue and cry over it…wen it opened, de started sayin de wanted HAL open for ATR planes operation…den it became short haul flights…nw its almost lik de want the new airport to close and HAL to restart full operations…  and now with IT minister making hilarious comments….werent these the people who approved the designs and gave the land for the airport….and come on yaar…de r stakeholders in the consortium which runs the airport…so how come they dint raise any issue of low standards of facilities in the airport when the plan was being chalked out, being approved and under construction….i think even my younger brother who is in school understands that all this is being pushed by some ppl who want the HAL airport open….i wonder wat the minister is getting out of this….
Devesh's picture

VVR

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VVR

Please see the statement I was responding to. It was that Government has done nothing about NH7. Whether the expansion of NH7 was done as part of Golden Quadrilateral or airport, should not matter. If you recall, while I highlighted the concern about connectivity back in 2006, I have always believed that connectivity while not good, is, by and large, acceptable.

The impact on the city traffic is another matter. At the press conference, ORSI indicated that peak hour traffic in central Bangalore will increase over 200% overnight , and that has happened.

See the amount of resources (land and concession aside) that government has dedicated to BIAL airport. 1600 Cr on road improvements, VV service, umpteen policemen, BBMP on a war path. Just imagine, if even 1/10th of this effort was spent 5 years ago for the benefit of airport road, BMTC buses to HAL, etc. When people accuse the government of shafting BIAL, I ask them to compare how much has been spent for BIAL and then go back just 5 years and compare what was done for HAL. There is a saying in Hindi. Ghar ki Murgi Bahar ki Dal barabi. (A chicken cooked at home is equal to Dal at the restaurant). Time to get out of the coolie mentality, the colonists have gone 60 years ago. White does not automatically mean right.

I highlight a misconception. When we say BIAL, WHO do we mean ? GoK is part of BIAL. How can a company disassociate itself from its own shareholder and Board of Directors ?  After all Principal Secy Infrastructure, Mr. VP Baligar and Chief Secretary Mr. Sudhakar Rao are members of BIAL Board. I know them both to be very capable officers.

For the future, we are discussing the rail link in another thread. Who should bear the cost of the rail link ? In my humble opinion, it certainly should not be the general public. It should be airport and airport city users. But then is the train designed for the workers at the upcoming airport city ?

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
blr_editor's picture

closing this thread now

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Starting with PP and transparency in context of BIAL, we have brought in the connectivity (which itself, the high speed rail is being talked off as a PPP), competition, and peices of HAL as well.

Please drive smaller discussions via a few new detailed posts. Closing this thread for now. BTW, don't lose track of the high speed rail, which is a PPP of similar size as BIAL.

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