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HOHO off to a slow start

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BusPublic Transport

Saw this in this morning's DH.  Not surprised that it is off to a slow start. 

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Feb112009/city20090211117812.asp

'“We have no collection at all. Throughout the day we have got only Rs 30 by ferrying the distance,” said the driver of a Kendriya Sarige bus service.'.

'Nearly 66 buses in two opposite directions, namely the Blueline and the Orangeline buses, will ply the inner city roads.'

I will be helping the first point on Saturday.  Why don't we do our Praja meeting at Cubbon Park/MG Road after taking one of these buses?

66 is a lot of buses.  Do we need a Red Line (not the Delhi one), and a Green line as well.  4 CBD routes can be possible with 15 buses on each route some shorter and some longer with overlapping stops to change.  The "shopping" stretch of MG Road has to be covered; buses should go from Richmond Road towards Residency Road and Mayo Hall.  Is Volvo overkill for this - all this needs is those Jet Airways style buses at the airport - lots of standing place and lots of glass.

SB - any hopes of having a discussion with Prof Ramesh and RK on this?  This is an excellent concept and should not be shut down because of lack of revenues. 

Srivathsa

Comments

prkamath's picture

Laughing all the way to the office HOHO HOHO

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I used it yesterday to return home and also today morning. Sadly yesterday I was the only one and today there was one another gentleman. It works pretty well for me, but I have to forego the convenience of the daily pass, since that does not work here. I feel that the service has neglected the common man. Why must this service make use of AC VOLVO buses? A normal bus would suffice as well. Please allow the daily/monthly pass on this and then we will see how well the service works. Also, does the HOHO mean that you can stop/start it anywhere? Irrespective of the bus-stop?
narayan82's picture

Day Tickets?

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Can we buy a daily pass on these busses? Makes sense right!

So if I want to go shopping from one location to another I dont have to buy a 10 Rupee ticket each time. I can buy justa  Shopping Pass and hope around for the whole day!

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
idontspam's picture

Good start actually

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Day tickets will be a good addition. I should commend this effort. For a city so used to hopping into personal vehicle it will take time for people to hop on to buses. It needs to be supplemented by congestion charging within the HO HO loop. Innovation happens by trying out stuff and the improvising on them iteratively. No need to make drastic decisions on changin buses etc. What is needed now is for maps and route info to be distributed at the stops, shops everywhere. Route maps and info about these buses within HO HO loop should be in your face.
s_yajaman's picture

Commendable initiative

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IDS,

Agree that this is a commendable initiative and can have a very good impact on the currently congested CBD.  What I would like to see how this integrates with the BIG10 service by having common bus stops at the periphery of the CBD so that people don't even need to bring their cars out let alone park it in the CBD. 

What needs to be put in place is a Suburban Sarige at the other end of the Big10 which provides last mile connectivity to nearby areas.  Then one does not need to use a car or bike. 

Airport VV seems to be taking off now with the economic downturn and the need to cut costs.  I see many buses running reasonably full - BIAS9 being one.  Even BIAS5 runs quite full.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

asj's picture

Hope this expands

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Looks like a nice start, but I think the point made by prkamath is valid. PT is a great equaliser and having som many different classes of buses is unhelpful.

Ideally this ought to be expanded region wise - London uses a concentric circles approach. I can get a zone 4 day/week/month/quarterly/yearly pass and use it in zone 4 as many times as I want.

There are other options and I have suggested this one in Pune http://better.pune.googlepages.com/pune_zoning.doc 

But on the whole this is the right way forward.

ASJ
asj's picture

Agree

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Syed,
You are right. The Pune zoning was part of grand scheme of things and not stand alone.
It will not help to bring in buses for sake of it.
Just today I have exchanged e-mails with people in Pune about a picture where 7 buses seem to be following each other on the pilot BRT route - this is because lot of buses are focusing on certain routes and some roads are left barren!! A good route  and frequency rationalisation process is a must before zoning but HOHO is a start and that needs expanding.

ASJ
rs's picture

Route

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I was looking at the route and perhaps it would be better if the HOHO service provided a link between Commercial street and MG Road. This way shoppers who often go to both places can park in one and use it. So instead of Cubbon Road perhaps the bus should use Infantry or Dispensary road, though admittedly they are rather narrow roads.

It seems to me that the stretch on Cubbon Road and by Cubbon park is not one where people will get on and off except when there is a cricket match. Also, its not an area where people coming from the north can park and leave their cars. I suppose it would be useful for people who can park their cars behind the cricket stadium and have to go to Richmond or Residency Road. But then I suspect such people would try their luck parking closer.

Anyway, its a good start. I will try and use it this weekend when I will be in that area next. My fear with these things is that they dont quite set it up properly - then it doesnt work - and they discard it saying that such things dont work without trying to fix the small flaws, such as adjusting the route etc. I think the success of such a service is very sensitive to the route so one has to be rather careful in deciding it. I guess there must be frequent route rationalization, as some others have suggested. 



Ramesh
s_yajaman's picture

My fear too

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RS,

I have the same fear.  If you set it up for failure, failure will be certain.  Though I must commend BMTC for sticking to the Vayu Vajra plan.  Early on the buses used to run empty.  I now see them reasonably full. 

I would like to see the KS buses run along MG Road near Lakeview etc.  I don't know why that stretch is off limit for buses.

I would like the route to be Richmond Road --> Hudson Circle -->Museum--> Stadium --> MG Road --> Kamaraj Road --> Manipal Centre --> Mayo Hall --> Garuda --> Lifestyle --> Richmond Road.  Trinity Church is not really needed in this loop.

One more would be Residency Road --> Mayo Hall -->Garuda --> Manipal -->Commercial Street --> Kamaraj Road --> MG Road --> Stadium --> Museum --> Mallya Hospital --> Bangalore Club

Third Route - Richmond Road --Residency Road -->Museum Road -->St Marks Road --> Brigade Road --> Vellara Jn --> RIchmond Road.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

murali772's picture

ho ho ho for HO_HO & BIG-10

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My comments on HO-HO and BIG-10 can be accessed at  http://bangalore.praja.in/blog/idontspam/2009/01/20/abide-bengaluru-vedike#comment-10628.

I second Yajamaanravara suggestion that henceforth we meet in the Cubbon Park so that atleast those coming from areas where BIG-10 links have become operational, can take them. That will include me. I will get my son to drop me at FORUM on his bike, and take a ride on the Hosur Road BIG-10.

Hopefully, soon the Govt will grant me the license to operate the HO-HO in Koramangala, in which case, I won't even have to bother my son.

Muralidhar Rao

Muralidhar Rao
Arun's picture

Give HOHO some time

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Guess I have seen atleast 40 of these 66 with two human beings and only 2 buses with 3 humans, i.e., one passenger. A good start, but 66 of them before the Big10s entering CBD is colossal waste. Also smaller buses instead of Volvos would be better, and if need be, the one-ways on Richmond, Residency, St.Mark and Museum Roads should be opened up for these buses. Am waiting for the K R Road Big10. Hope HOHO and Big10 are not dumped.
Vasanth's picture

Office routes during weekdays

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Lots of people getdown at Corporation Circle and take Autos to reach offices near Indian Express, the Cunningham Road, Queens Road . If the route is slightly rearranged to cover these areas, it will be beneficial to passengers as well as BMTC in terms of revenue.

ash.mahesh's picture

only the beginning ...

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Hello everyone, I looked through the messages about Kendra Saarige and Big10 on Praja, and thought i'd respond briefly. (Pls understand that my comments are my own, and not the government's or ABIDe's position, necessarily).

1. The effectiveness of the grid becomes apparent only as significant portions of it get built. I think that once there is a steady stream of Big10 services connecting to the core areas, and this is complemented by (at least two) ring services, as well as neighbourhood saariges, we will have an intuitively understandable bus system based on recognisable buses, predictable and reliable frequencies, and increased comfort. It will take, in my estimate, about 3 months to get al the Big10s out, and institute ring services as well.

2. If the rationalisation of the grid is achieved, we may (should?) be able to bring higher comfort to more people at affordable prices. The road map for the major elements of the grid is in place, and BMTC is working hard to roll out the branded fleet as quickly as possible (painting, depot assignment, programming LED boards, data procedures, promotional literature, etc are all happening in parallel, and I am optimistic about this). I hope you will all choose the bus, and show your support. I will try to write in every few days with an update, and if some of you can (and want to) help with specific things, that would be very nice. We need all the hands we can get to make this happen in a nice way.

Finally, I want to say one other thing. Over the last few months I have worked closely with people at BMTC, virtually at every level, and am both impressed and assured by their commitment to a quality product for public good. There are certainly issues to be sorted out (especially on the in-house capacity on various fronts) but I think we can get there, with your support. We should all be able to look back on 2009, and say 'we did something important here', not only for Bangalore, but for the way urban mobility in understood and managed in India itself.

Thank you.
Ashwin
ash.mahesh's picture

question about 66 buses

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not sure where that number is coming from - here are the ones I have.

- 9 Volvo buses in each direction for Kendra Saarige

- 16-20 Suvarna buses for each of the major Big10 roads, maybe fewer for Bannerghatta and Tumkur Roads which share stretches with other Big10 roads (Hosur and Bellary Road respectively).

A

silkboard's picture

Thats prof ashwin mahesh

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Srivathsa, you meant prof mahesh, not prof ramesh, here he is, commenting himself (above) in personal capacity!! RK Misra said he will help push local shuttle plans for any area if there are well thought out suggestions ready. I can do this for whitefield for sure, and can also organize a 'praja-style meeting with him (and prof ashwin as well) to talk end to end connectivity via bmtc. Will check interest in this via a separate post. Go hoho go!
trimurthi's picture

Route map within google maps

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I have used google map and drawn the routes of the buses in their colours (red and green, I guess). I have used the route given by ABIDe. Should I put it elsewhere? A new post?

Apparantely, I realised that after saving as JPEG, some small texts are blurred. I can do this again if praja's think its is unreadable.
Also, places can be added to this map (like Bangalore Central, Garuda Mall, etc) and circulated.

I hope this is a better route map than what is circulated by BMTC inspectors at HOHO stops, and what has been circulated by ABIDe.

Once circulated among friends, I'm looking forward to awry weekend shoppers in CBD to use this map to get introduced to public transport.


s_yajaman's picture

Slow start - not a criticism - just verbatim from DH

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Prof Mahesh,

Sorry I got the name all mixed up.  Thanks for responding even if only in a personal capacity.   I am taking my two small boys out on this bus tomorrow from Richmond Road to the science museum.  We are all great fans of good public transport in our house having used public transport for the most part of the last 13 years for all our commuting.  Bangalore is not easy on bus commuters - mostly the attendant infrastructure.  It is simply distressing to see commuters wait on the road, in the sun, at all sorts of inconvenient places, chasing after buses that stop far ahead of where they are supposed to, etc. 

My post was not meant to be a criticism at all.  It was just a reproduction of what DH had to say.  Most of us who have been involved in any new initiative (even in a corporate setting) know that new ideas take time to take ground and become institutionalized.  I hope that BMTC is committed to this idea as it can truly change the CBD.  Based on what you say, there is hope.  We here greatly appreciate that public transport is getting its due slowly.  We want this concept to succeed and thus the overdose of suggestions and what you might see as impatience. 

Many of us here will be more than happy to get involved if you need help.

Srivathsa

 

 

 

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

idontspam's picture

Some suggestions

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1. They should let people try kendra saarige (KS) for free for a few days. It worked for BIAS. There has to be discounting for early adopters. It can be hiked up after the complete buildout has happened.

2. They could convert the rs10 KS ticket per HOHO to a time based price like 10 rs for 4 hours etc.

3. They need sell daily/weekly/monthly passes which can be used across both the KS and other routes.

4. Indicate parking lots along the route map being distributed where people can park their personal transport and get on to KS buses.

5. Indicate in the KS route map, which Non-KS buses stop at the KS stops.

Right now other than the stops I am not sure if the passes, tickets etc are integrated with the Non-KS buses. Integration is the key, since once a person get into a car or bike he is less likely to switch to a bus somewhere along the way unless he benefits on cost and/or time.

ash.mahesh's picture

a couple of links

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here are browsable links

Blue Line http://abide.mapunity.org...

Orange Line http://abide.mapunity.org...

The suggestions in the previous post are well taken. Some of this is in the works. I'm still waiting for the buses to be ready. I hear that from Monday we will start seeing a steady roll of branded Big10 buses come on to the fleet, and that should help.

There is also a plan to hop the Blue line over to cover Safina Plaza and Commercial Street as well instead of going straight through on Cubbon Road. Promotional material will be handed out in the key high-footfall areas on the lines (Garuda Mall, Commercial Street, UB City, Hudson Circle, Manipal Centre and a couple of other locations) either this weekend or on Monday.

I will ride the bus a couple of times on the weekend again to see what I can learn further. There are some driver issues to be sorted out as well - if the service is to be good, we have to pay attention to the drivers' health, sanitation and comfort factors too.

Please choose the bus.

Ashwin
p.s. Srivathsa, no offence taken. I know a lot of people mean well, and their inputs are a reflection of their enthusiasm and hope that things will get better. We have to try.

asj's picture

Grid / Mesh model Vs Hub-n-spoke model

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It will help if Prof Mahesh can elaborate on the grid approach. Perhaps the term is not being used in technical sense.

These two links pertain to Pune but there are theoritical underpinnings with reference to Mumbai, Dublin, Singapore (recently I have found reviews / evidence to suggest that London and Hanoi are in same boat) all using a hub-n-spoke model.

http://better.pune.googlepages.com/Rationalising_PMT_bus_routes_case_ex.pdf 

Pune is a mess because of a Grid / Mesh - only 18% of its population uses buses. What is worrying is that 709 of 850 buses in Pune run on major roads (11 prospective BRT routes) at frequencies of 1 bus a minute!!!

The above is worth studying (I have else where said why feeder service, and focus on BRT / Metro may fail given the walking time added to overall journey time with these approaches).

Mumbai, London - hub-n-spokes are organised such that hubs are not point where buses start or end. They just happen to be a junction through which many routes pass. The spokes fly out in to narrowest of roads in Mumbai making it a door-to-door service (excellent for commutes under 12 km). There is plenty of evidence where cycle beats the London underground tube for rather lengthy distances as well. Worldwide cycle is fastest for journey's under 5km (no waiting for bus, no walking to tube stations....).

The above is not to judge HOHO or other services in Bangalore - I can't do that as I have no first hand experience of the city.

Its more for Praja and the city planners to see if some of these concepts apply to HOHO and other plans and avoid mistakes made by sylogistic thinking (a big wide road is not always the fastest).

ASJ
binaiks's picture

HOHO Service

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Hello All, I am a new comer to this group. I travel daily from Bannerghatta Road (Arakere Gate) to Lavelle Road by Bus. For the past few days, I have been taking my car (temporarily), and honestly speaking I reach back home completely exhausted. The traffic is just unbearable. On seeing the HOHO route maps, the first point that came to my mind is that MANY parts of the "so-called" CBD has not been covered. The route seems to have been drawn to the crew's convenience. Say a person reaches St Patricks Church (This is the end point for the Hosur road Big-10 Service), and needs to go towards Indian Express junction - there is no way but to wait for a normal bus that comes behind. Then, why would the person prefer to take a Big-10, then come to one stop and then wait for a bus, which he would have got into at his earlier stop itself! HOHO services should be started even on diagonal routes to the existing ones.

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
ash.mahesh's picture

Cunningham Road section

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Binaiks, I agree this portion needs to be looked at, but there are some uncertainties at the moment w.r.t. Metro-linked road closures near Vidhan Soudha and Raj Bhavan. Once there is clarity on that work, we can weave in the northwest corner of the CBD much more easily. We can also make the service sweep a little more territory once it runs in front of Vidhan Soudha, but this too has been deferred for the same reason.

Until then, I hope you will still take the Big10 service when it rolls out on Bannerghatta Road. The Kendra Saarige Orange Line hits Minsk Square, near the GPO, which is within 100 metres of Indian Express Jn. And as BBMP's sidewalk improvements linked to the KS service roll out, I hope it will be a safe walk for you as well.

Please choose the bus.
A

idontspam's picture

Big 10 across CBD

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If you run it across there is the danger of the mid point becoming another hub in the making? As long as the frequency is high change over to the KS and off the KS for the other big 10 should be painless.

Or you could stagger the buses running across. Run 2 out of 6 during peak hours across and they could be nonstop for those heading across town. The other 4 can terminate at KS for people heading to CBD

s_yajaman's picture

Some fundamental questions

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Took the Blue KS from Vellara Junction to the Museum with my boys.  Spent some time there, crossed the road back and took the Orange back to Bangalore Club.  Nice to see bus stops marked.  The Vellara Jn bus stop though is not a great place to stand - it smells of urine :(.

On the way to VITM, I paid Rs.30 (full tickets for the kids); on the way back paid Rs20 (1/2 ticket for the kids).  Buses were empty.  The Blue bus drove very well, kept mostly to the left of the road - this is something that needs to be enabled and enforced with the help of the police.  Orange bus tended to drive a bit fast and stayed far too much to the right on Mallya Road.  Given that bus stops are quite frequent, it makes sense for them to stick to the left.  Given that there is no real time pressure, there is no need to weave in and out of traffic.

All of which brings me to some fundamental questions on both services

a. What are the big drivers of CBD congestion.  Will KS address those?  A lot of the traffic on Residency Road and Richmond Road is through traffic.  These serve as the only big East West link (with MG Road now half taken by Metro).  Compared to ITPL and E-City, the CBD is a minor employer (I think). 

b. Where do people park to take these KS buses.  I am lucky - my mother-in-law lives in Richmond Town and so I get free parking.  Once people sit in cars they really don't want to get off.  We have to crack this.  Shantinagar TTMC has good parking. 

c. What is the target market for the Big 10.  It should not be other bus users (they are secondary prospects)?  It has to be the car and two-wheeler user going to CBD from these roads.  Which means the services should start at the big sources - the mega apartment complexes from which a lot of car and bike traffic originate.  The Mantris and Brigades of the world.  Moving people from one bus service to another will not help.  We need to move people from cars/bikes to the Big10-->KS.  335E is a great success story.  It is pretty much full all the time.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

VXB's picture

ticketing issue?

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I've been using the service for the last couple of days and hope they're given a good run before being written off as a failure. Quick comment about a problem with the ticketing - or perhaps it is lack of knowledge on the part of the conductor in question. Earlier today I took the Blue Line from Cubbon Road to Richmond Road (Vellara Junction). The conductor told me I'd have to buy two tickets since the route terminated at the Police HQ (near Trinity Circle? not entirely sure) and from there it was a fresh trip onward to Richmond Road-Corporation Circle etc. Is this right? I thought one ticket sufficed for a full circuit. In the event, I bought two tickets. I can't really speak Kannada and couldn't get into the details with him.
ash.mahesh's picture

ticketing issue ... two tickets

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that shouldn't have happened, although I know why it did. The Form that is programmed into the ticketing machine is mean for a typical Origin-Destination use case, and breaks down when you use a circular route. I was also asked today on the bus 'where are you going?' and I asked him 'how does that matter, isn't it fixed price?'.

Some conductor education is needed further on this. We did this once or twice earlier, but new crew members are coming on daily, and they need to become familiar with this.

A

ramesh_mbabu's picture

Hope this experiment does not end in a mess as BlueLineGrid Bus

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MBS 1-24, they were a great success, most of them on regular intended routes run on full capacity. This was probably the first service from BMTC which were not Shivaji Nagar, Majestic, Market centric. First sign of acceptance by BMTC that Bangalore has grown beyond these crowded trio. Off late, these buses run on other routes. Have they ever thought about usability? About the passengers plight when you see a bus with an MBS# & another route number? Probably it does not matter, no one cares, every one ask the conductor irrespective of a proper route display!
Ramesh
binaiks's picture

Ill-Planning

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Hello All,

@ Mr. Mahesh..about AC buses sporting Big10 stickers - do you mean to say that Volvo services currently running most of its distance along Big10 services will sport Big10 stickers - that is services like those to ITPL/KR Puram? 

BMTC recently introduced Volvo services along Route Number 368 (Shivaji Nagar-Bannerghatta National Park). The services are operated by Depot-13 (Kathriguppe). The most interesting part of this service is that there is NO awareness about one such route. No newspapers reported introduction of one such route. To add more salt to the injury, the first bus from Bannerghatta leaves only 0930 - after ALL offices around MG Road begin functioning. Similarly, the last bus from Shivaji Nagar leaves at 1630 itself - much before people can even imagine leaving office. On paper, however, the last trip from Shivajinagar is at 1750: But in reality, this bus goes on Route 13F to Banashankari-Kamakya from Shivaji Nagar! This service seems to have been introduced for fail. Instead of being scheduled at times where passengers will be benefited, the bus has been introduced in a pattern that the operating crew are benefitted!

About MBS services: There is one MBS service along Bannerghatta Road: MBS13. The bus is operated by Depot 25 and Depot 10 (three buses each). The first bus leaves only at 0800 from either ends, while the last bus invariably leaves either ends by 1700. The immediate need is to have services much beyond the conventional 0800-1700 hours. Buses need to start very early, and should go on till late night. AND, it should be ensured that ANY of these branded buses (be it MBS or Big10) should NOT be used on any other service.  Using them on other routes only dilutes the "brand image" that you create for each service.

The end terminus for Big10 services are just disappointing. The connectivity from St Patricks is really bad, unless and until KS services expand to more routes. Passengers like me are likely to snub these services, and crowd the conventional buses more. A very important point that is being missed here is the validity of passes. If the main aim is to shift passengers from Cars/Bikes to Buses, then these services should be made to terminate at convenient places, and should ideally originate from places where there are huge residential apartments. Dedicated bus stop shelters can be built, but the corporation should ensure that the drivers stop at the bus stop properly and not anywhere they like. 

Big10 services should ideally be run through to the other side. I will surely try to take these buses while coming back from office - while going to office, the logistics really does not work out - the bus would terminate at SPC, and then I would either have to walk down about 1.5km to my office in Lavelle Road, or then wait for ever to get another bus to Lavelle Road (St Marks Road is where the stop is located).

I am sure there would be more passengers is another KS is run: Richmond Circle-SPC-St Marks Road-MG Road-Shivaji Nagar/Indian Express Junction-Stadium/MG Circle-Museum-Mallya Hospital-Richmond Circle

The number of passengers traveling from Shivaji Nagar side to Corporation circle is also tremendous. I suggest that a kind of ring route be operated with normal buses on this route: Corporation Circle-Museum-MG Road/Anil Kumble Circle-Indian Express-Stadium/MG Circle-Mallya Hospital-Corporation. This would not be ideal for a Volvo - but then services like a MarcoPolo would be good, or even Suvarnas would do. 

The MOST important aspect that needs to be looked into is the timings. The first bus should leave earlier - atleast by 0630 and the last bus should be around atleast till 2200. Many colleagues in office "ditched" buses and got their own two-wheelers since buses terminate much before 2000. And there is no way they could reach home if they had to stay back in office due to work.

In my own case, my office reporting time is 0730. But, I had to have a one-on-one with the management to get my reporting time changed to 0830, since buses on BG road do not pick up steam that early in the morning. The only services run are buses to Market, which mean I have to change three buses to reach office. The first bus to Shivaji Nagar from BG Road is MBS13, which leaves Arakere at 0800 (often leaves at 0755). I have to leave office by any chance by 1730 (thereby I remain unavailable in office in any emergency) since the last "direct" bus goes past my office at 1740. If I miss this bus, I again have to change three buses, which is not something that I would wish to do.

The main point being highlighted here is that the first bus should leave ideally by around 0630 and the last bus should be around till 2200.

The first bus on Big10, AFAIK, leaves at 0730 and the last bus at 2130. Please correct me if I am wrong.


Now coming to an unrelated to aspect:

Big10 service to Hosur Road

This is a Big10 bus heading to Electronic City, that I captured near Bangalore Military School, yesterday. Given the fact that these buses would have a distinct livery, is it really necessary to have "BIG-10" to be displayed on the digital scroll? This is taking more space, and the name of the destination is being shown across as a very small scroll. AND, in most buses, the english scroll just says "St Patricks Church to E" and by now the english scroll stops and the kannada scroll  begins. This has to be rectified to ensure that both language scrolls are shown completely.
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
Transmogrifier's picture

Time based KS tickets?

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IDS and others,

IDS, I think the idea of a time based fare is excellent. That makes it independent of the number of stops sorting out the ticketing issue that VXB and Prof Mahesh had. GIve it a fixed time (X hours) and allow a grace period of 5-10 minutes. That should take care of a "oh the bus was late, otherwise my ride would have been free" excuse if any. Also a time-based rate makes it  and will make it very competitive wrt auto fares. 

Prof. Mahesh, is it possible to adapt KS ticketing to that?

TM

TM

idontspam's picture

Validate at boarding time

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it possible to adapt KS ticketing to that?

IMO all it needs is a rubber stamp. Stamp a watermarked ticket with date and time when passenger boards.

This way hourly and daily tickets could be vended separately in corner stores, via vending machines, given out to patrons by companies malls etc. The passenger could validate it when he boards or at any time he chooses to get his ticket clock ticking.

rmb's picture

Cann't the same Big10 bus run on multiple radials?

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Just a thought, for eg: can a Big10 running on OMR continue running say till the Big10 end point on Mysore road and other radials skirting the HOHO routes or crossing them as required? There are many advantages
1) It is still direction oriented and avoid 2 change overs for a commuter who wants to continue till the other radials.
2) If it crosses the HOHO routes, few more people don't need change overs.
3) Increases patronage

Some time back I had to use the volvo route 201R (CV Raman Nagar to Banashankari and some observations.
1) The first service from C V Raman Nagar starts at 8.50AM and reaches at Madivala area aroun 10AM, which is certainly an ILL PLANNING as denoted by binaiks. Similarly I didn't see a bus on return route beyond 7PM. These timings are highly deplorable. Any one with a good business sense would have decided to milk the rawmaterial (The Bus here, which cost around 70 Lakhs) to maximize the profit, but not BMTC. The disappearance of these volvo buses early in the morning and late in the evening is noticed on OMR routes as well.
2) The details of the above routes given at http://www.bmtcinfo.com/e... is stale. This is one arena where BMTC can do better, no need to wait for glossy promotional material as Prof. Mahesh has mentioned earlier, this may be okay for BIAS routes, what general public on the road required is uptodate data either at the web site or on the time table booklets available at stores.
3) There are many routes based on the 201, such an extend that soon they will be forced to use 201AA, 201AB etc. One such is 201D which ply between Indira Nagar & Madivala through Inner Ring Road & Koramangala.  I do not know the actual end point at Indira Nagar side, but due to the on going metro work it ends at 100 Ft Rd - CMH Rd junction. This is highly inconvenient for the commuters, atleast it should touch OMR some where and go back. Or extend it to some other residential catchment area say KR Puram/Ramamurthy Nagar etc.
4) Similarly many other routes 201G for eg: terminates at Jeevan Bhima Nagar, it would make sense to extend it upto DRDO phase 2 or Mallesh Palaya etc. which are huge catchment areas compared to Jeevan Bhima Nagar.
RMB.
idontspam's picture

Working group needed

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@binaiks & rmb

I am not a regular user of BMTC and I am surprised there arent enough buses during peak hour while they should be running at maximum frequency at that time! What is the point of running the buses after all the commuters are gone!!!

All these problems are because BMTC does not listen to commuters and their experiences. I suggest a praja working group be formed to discuss the route optimization and earlier zone based routing proposals and take it to concerned people. This will be broader than just the HOHO. It will be good if people who use the service and are knowledgeable like yourselves start the working group. You can invite volunteers on praja for your WG. 

SB -> Is there already a WG for this? I dont know if this can be combined with the transportation WG. 

ash.mahesh's picture

time-stamps and tickets

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Kendra Saarige will soon start honouring its tickets for two hours at a time, I hear. So, this will allow changeovers between lines to get closer to one's destination, and also short return trips for a single ticket.

LED boards on painted buses - redundant, yes, but the boards are already there in most buses! Also, on some Big10 routes there will be overlapping sections (Hosur Road and Bannerghatta Raod services for example, will overlap between Vellara Jn and the cemetery), so the LED board can be useful in those cases. Better signage on the boards - will see if I can standardise this.

Please choose the bus.
A

kbsyed61's picture

KS early results- Is the result of adhoc planning?

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IDS, and others,

 After going thru the comments posted on this thread and response from Prof Ashwin Mahesh, I get a feeling that the HOHO and BIG 10 service has been introduced in the manner that neither fits the commuter needs nor the traffic dynamics on roads helps it for better commuter option. I clearly see the reasons for the early failures.

  1. Oneways/No Entry is determining the route and stops
  2. It has been introduced without any consideration for its usage and peak time needs
  3. No clear approach - Should it be a single route approach or should go far change over at major interchanges (MMTCs).
  4. Not everyone is involved - Confusion in 2 tickets for round trip tells the sorry state of ignorance of those who are put to run the service.
  5. Supporting infrastructure is not spruced up to help the service become successful - Stops not being helpful to the commuters etc.
  6. More Chaos, Confusion - It is just trying to fit into the confusion and chaos operations of BMTC.

 I can go on, but I think these are enough to give you enough clues why KS and BIG10 could be another recipe for disaster. What is needed is to first decide should we for a single route system or should we move towards spoke-hub & other models that offer better mobility and choices for travel from one place to the other? And also without addressing the supporting infrastructure issues like bus stops at right places, Info systems, Priority for PT, etc any plan to mitigate daily commute in the city would not taste success. Time has come to address these issues at war footing pace.

KS is good service to understand the present system and address the issues for a better system. It needs efforts, willingness to change and dedication to do it.

 

 

 

kbsyed61's picture

Does the ticket allow me to get onto other bus?

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Does the KS ticket allow me to change over to other regular BMTC bus for last mile connectivity?

idontspam's picture

KS vs the rest of the services

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I believe while KS and Big 10 are innovative services with a specific purpose we are confusing the KS/Big10 with inefficiences of BMTC standard saariges. Let us try to understand the big picture and propose solutions so that these services can be improved.

One of the key things I have learned is you need to roll out small services and then perfect them by improving upon them. This will allow you to test different concepts and the apply them to the other services. 

Also let us not consider critisism to mean failure. One of Praja's aims is to allow constant interaction so the feedback can go on to improve the system. We need to realize always it need not be that the person putting forth the service is a superman who knows everything. We can contribute our bits to help make any system a bigger success. 

So I agree KS is good service to try out new concepts.  We need to thnk about all aspects and come up with our suggestions we cannot preconclude innovative services to be misfit because they dont fit a bigger purpose.

kbsyed61's picture

Except the route, Vehicle,

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I don't think KS is any innovative than the existing ones. Except for route and its flashy clored buses, it is the same service that BMTC has been trying to provide all the years. More than that BMTC is running these services, not any private player or consortium, therefore we are seeing the same inefficiencies. Does the Bus stops, Info Boards and frequency any better than that serves other regular bus service?

 The actual KS ride experiences that have been posted here on praja clearly points to the fact that it doesn't add any value or mitigate the daily commute. What I mean by doesn't add value is like allowing for transfer of tickets to ordinary BMTC bus etc.This service would really add value to the PT, if it had been planned as part of the restructuring of BMTC service and commuters have facility to transfer to other service for their onward journey.

 

idontspam's picture

Innovation and KS

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I see KS (as the name suggests) as a service that can keep personal vehicles away from CBD. Thats a first and that is definitely innovative as far Bangalore is concerned. I dont see KS as enabling intra city commute. That is a bigger purpose that needs to be served by other services. How do we effectively make KS serve the purpose of keeping vehicles away from CBD? That is something we can discuss.

How would a private party running the same buses make any more innovative?  If your point was that wether they put up fancy bus stops, and info boards, I have the same questions. I want to see the same things implemented. But to say this is a disaster waiting to happen is like looking at the glass half empty.

The very fact that you have somebody listening to you and tuning these servces is the other part I was referring to. I want that sustained as that is where this forum will help.

asj's picture

Problems should be easy to solve

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Binaiks, you have hit nail on its head

When buses restrict themselves to major arterial roads, they may move faster, but as you point out, it means commuters have to walk more or waste time waiting for so called feeder buses - basically time is lost and people find it so frustrating that they start looking at alternatives (what better than a 2 wheel drive).

In contrast this is what happens in Mumbai http://pune.praja.in/discuss/forums/2009/02/some-best-bus-routes-i-used

But good news is Bangalore is well ahead in the game with regards number of travel worthy buses compared to Pune. Solving route related problems is actually easy.

Again ticketing should be easier - regional zones rather than handful of routes as a way of unlimited access on all types of buses is the key.

ASJ

Transmogrifier's picture

Pessimism and criticism

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IDS, KBS and others,

IDS spot on! Prof Mahesh can corroborate this, KS is (atleast initially) a CBD alleviating service...not a connectivity one (again not yet). Let's see the glass half full and try make it better. Case in point is the response to binaiks concern on scrolling LEDs. And IMO, we need the flashy bus for non traditional bus users to want to use PT. Undoubtedly, efficiency and convenience will be the best long-term judge of the service but branding is a part of it too. 

On a different note, I think the whole purpose of the group is summed up in its mission statement: Know, care participate. The premise of this group and the reason most of us are here is because we're critical but not pessimistic for if the converse were true this page might not exist today.

TM

TM

binaiks's picture

Digital Scrolls

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The very point that I had conveyed (or tried to) is the fact that the route number is eating up more than half of the scroll. We need to have destination displayed on the board, but what is the purposed of wasting 75 % of the board showing "BIG-10". Instead, have stickers on the windshield to show that the bus is a "BIG-10" service, and show only the destination where the bus is heading to (along with the route taken) on the scroll. Ideally, it should show only the destination - NOT the origin. The current pattern shows "ABC to XYZ" on the first line and "Via: ...... " on the second line.

Instead, the board should show only "ABC" or "XYZ" on the first line (that is, the actual destination where the bus headed to) and then the second line showing the route taken.

About ticketing in KS services: The ticketing machine should be reprogrammed. The ticket should show only the details of the bus that issued the ticket, the issuing time and the expiry time in bold letters along with the date. The format of the Platform tickets issued by the vending machines at Bangalore City Junction can be used for this. If any one wants it, I can scan the same and put in here.

There should be more buses during peak hours. The current working of BMTC is exactly the opposite. Buses leave their depots well past 0800 and return back home by 1800! The drivers and conductors heading to/from their depots add to the peak hour traffic than buses carrying them!

The tedious and non-ending wait for buses is what forces people to take their personal vehicles. I tried taking my car to office for a week, and honestly speaking I am tired of it. Today I took a bus and felt much fresh when I reached office, than while I was driving.




--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
trimurthi's picture

Know - yes, care - yes, participate - ?

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I would like to join this praja working group focussed on carrying forward so many Praja suggestions collectively to BMTC.

I guess if more people make noise at BMTC offices, they might consider opinions.
kbsyed61's picture

IDS, HoHO is planned as a connecting service!

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IDS,

 HoHo according to the ABIDE planners is a connecting service in conjunction with BIG-10 service. This is what R K Mishra writes in his email "http://bangalore.praja.in/blog/rithesh/2009/02/16/abide-transportation-plans-letter-rk-mishra".

 To me that is a good thinking and would look forward to its success ASAP. The reason being every public transport service should compliment, not compete with each other.

 Coming from configuration management and process improvement area, I would compliment the planners for introducing such a service. An imperfect implemented idea is far superior than Non-implemented perfect idea. I hope there is a crack team from ABIDe and BMTC that is tasked to fix the gaping holes (if any) in the KS & BIG-10 service.

 As you also pointed out, now the planner's should take the 2nd step of getting the maximum utility out of existing operations from BMTC, Taxis, Cabs and Autos. My personal take is it is very much possible to do this without having to expand the fleet.

Certainly BMTC operation needs deep closer look and requires a re-haul of their entire operation. Also needed is some innovative policy making that would make auto, taxis and cabs become supplementary service provider for the public transportation for last mile connectivity or special needs.

 Syed

ash.mahesh's picture

KS and Big10 - as I see it

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We have to look at Big10 and KS together, rather than independently. Big10 (including the A/c versions that are coming) will allow people to believe that the bus could be an option for them to visit the CBD, instead of taking the car. However, no one will be tempted to leave the car behind and take the bus to CBD if there isn't some kind of service in the CBD to provide last mile connectivity there. So, KS has to be available even before the full Big10 grid builds up. We're in that phase now.

The good news is that Big10 load factors are not bad, for the first week. Unfortunately, everyone focuses on the empty KS buses instead. That's life :-)

As I said earlier, Big10 Bannerghatta service will begin Thu or Fri this week, and Mysore and Old Madras Roads next week. I'm hopeful the rest can get off the ground within 4 weeks after that. I'm also hopeful of seeing at least two neighbourhood services going within 6 weeks - possibly beginning with Whitefield Saarige and Jayanagar/JP Nagar Saarige.

I admit there are issues that will need to be dealt with along the way. But, as I see it, for the first time that I can remember, we have an opportunity to engage the system and ensure continuous improvement. We have to make that count.

A

s_yajaman's picture

On Big10 load factors

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Prof,

Good to see the Big10 load factors building up.  I will take the BG Road or KKP Road service once they start and let you know.

However what we need to measure/check (and I assume you are), is how many occupants of the Big10 have switched from cars/bikes vs how many from BMTC's normal bus service.  The fare differential between Big10 and BMTC is not too high (I paid Rs.10 from JP Nagar to Bangalore Club on MBS11 once) and I would not be surprised if people at bus stops anyway were bus travelers - not that this is necessarily bad, but is it inline with the objectives?  With Airport VV service, we can say with very good certainty that almost all of them would have otherwise used cars/taxis.  With Big10 that will be harder to measure.   WHat is your assessment?

Looking forward to the JP Nagar/Jayanagar Sarige.  Maybe a Basavanagudi/GandhiBazaar/LalBagh one will also help.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

kbsyed61's picture

HoHo route on Majestic CBD area!

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Prof Mahesh,

 It will be very helpful if you could plan to introduce a HoHo service that would connect City Railway Station, KSRTC/KG Bus Stop in Majestic (if still in operation), KG Road, Mysore Bank, Corporation Circle, KR Circle, Maharani's Circle and Back to Railway Station.

 Syed

binaiks's picture

The first experience

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Hi all,

I decided to check out this new service today. I walked out of office in Lavelle Road, and headed straight to Chinnasawamy Stadium bus stop



The bus stop had a newly erected pole which listed out the details of the service. Unfortunately, this new stop was far from the actual bus stop. As I reached the bus stop, I saw a Volvo with scrolls going round on and on in Kannada standing on the divider end of the road. The bus was an Orange Line. The driver or the conductor made no attempts whatsoever to come close to be bus stop or try getting in some passengers. The signal turned green, and the bus made a swift exit.

Soon later, another bus came. Again, sticking to the rightern most lane. The signal was green, and hence the driver made no attempts to even stop at the stop, and I did not bother to wave at him, just to check if he would stop. In true BMTC style, the bus jumped the signal (Which had now turned red) and headed to Richmond circle. 

I continued my wait for the ever eluding Orange Line.  While I was waiting, about four Blue Line buses crossed the MG circle, heading to Anil Kumble Circle. Finally, after about 10 minutes, a real ORANGE Line bus came. AND, as expected, the bus was indeed being driven on the right most lane, and he showed no inclination to come to the bus stop or attempt to get a couple of passengers. I decided not to leave this bus, and cut across the traffic and got close to the bus. The driver was all enthusiastic to open the door for me, while the conductor was little. I got in and said I wanted to go to Brigade Road. The driver said yes, while the conductor was doubtful.

The conductor talked to me in a stern voice that the bus would terminate at Richmond Circle. I said okay, and got a ticket for Rs. 10. The AC were off. The very same conductor who was least impressed in stopping for me, stopped near the Museum enthusiastically. (I was the only passenger in the bus at the moment). That was to accomodate a friend of the conductor. A person was soon on board, and the conductor got busy chatting with him. NO ticket was issued. Finally, the bus pulled into Richmond Circle Bus stop (Bangalore Club). 




I got out of the bus at this stop, and decided to click a couple of images. The conductor was slightly scared on seeing me roam around the controller. He called me back to the bus, and I was back in the bus. Now the Airconditioners were on, and we had a couple of passengers other than me, and the conductor's friend (who was still enjoying the free ride). 

I was forced to get another Rs. 10 ticket to ride the next kilometre to Brigade Road Junction. I got down at the signal, and walked down to St Joseph College (EVA Mall), to get a Big-10 towards Hosur Road. I kept waiting for about 15 minutes, but there was NO sign of a bus! I finally lost my patience, and decided to hire a rickshaw to head to Koramangala. While in the Rickshaw, I crossed one Big10 right outside Brigade Towers, one at Vellara Junction, One outside Baldwin Boys School, one near Anepalya (the junction of BG Road and Hosur Road) and one near Adugodi Pol. Stn. (So that was five buses in a span of about 2 kms and about 10 minutes).

AND, then after finishing my work at Koramangala, I waited near Forum to get a bus to Bommanahalli. No bus turned up, and then had to walk on to the other side of Forum to get a 356C Volvo to head to Bommanahalli.

My first opinion: The service is NOT succeeding until the attitude of the crew change. They are expected to wait for passengers, atleast in the initial few days. Tickets should be time based and NOT stop based. Better connection to Big10 buses should be ensured, and one Big10 bus should always be waiting for passengers at either end point. This was a concept used by BEST in Mumbai. They called it "Zero Waiting Time" - Under this, one bus would always be waiting for passengers. The bus would come to the stop as soon as the previous bus departs, and would wait till its departure time. By now, the next bus would line up. This ensures a confidence among passengers to get into a bus.

The timings of the first and last bus HAS to be changed. They should start ideally by 0600~0630, and should be on till 2200. 

Thanks,
Binai Sankar

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
kbsyed61's picture

Binaiks, Thanks for posting your exeperience

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Binaiks,

 Thanks for posting your experience in such a detailed narration. I do hope that ABIDe's crack time would be making note of the shortcomings and fixing them to make KS & BIG-10 a big success.

 Your experience tells that if things are tweaked a bit, BIG-10 and HoHo would fit reasonably well into your daily commute needs. Am I right? In that sense, what needs to be tweaked? Location of bus stop (may be an additionla bus stop), timings and compulsory stop at bus stops?

Thanks once again.

 Looking forward to hear more of these experiences.

 Syed

 

binaiks's picture

Tweaks...

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Yes... Tweaks in now the 'bus' word here.

If the services are tweaked slightly, these services would surely be a part of my daily travel. The tweaks required are:

1. Changing the ticket pattern to allow one single ticket for the entire journey. I had to purchase two seperate tickets to travel from Chinnaswamy Stadium to Brigade Road yesterday. AND, it took me about 20 minutes to cover the distance (The bus took a royal 5 minute break at Richmond Circle). I could have easily walked down from office to Brigade Road in less than 20 minutes, and I would have saved Rs. 20! What would have been a good bargain for Rs. 10, was not worth it for Rs. 20!

2. Crew Attitude: The bus HAS to stop at bus stops. The crew still operate it like any other bus, and they don't bother to come even close to the bus stops. They have to come to the bus stop and ensure that passengers are impressed upon to make a journey. No more passengers running behind buses.

3. More HOHO services. A passenger, in his right mind, would not choose an Orange Line to continue his journey from St Patricks Junction. The reason is simple. To reach, say, Anil Kumble Circle, or Cubbon Road, he would prefer taking a normal black board from St Patricks Junction. This bus would straight away cut across St Marks road and reach Anil Kumble Circle and then Cubbon Road. AT the same time, an orange line would roam across Mayo Hall, Magrath Hospital, Ulsoor Road, Commercial Street and then land up at Cubbon Road. This would consume atleast 20 minutes and Rs. 10, while a normal black board would do it in less than 10 minutes, and just Rs. 3!!! So essentially, a cross connectivity has to be established. Say a bus originating at Vellara Junction going through St Marks, Anil Kumble Circle, Cubbon Road - and then either going towards Trinity Circle, or back through Stadium.

4. Awareness about Big10. The Brigade Road bus stop, where I waited, did not have a shelter or a board announcing that the place was a bus stop! I reached there since I travel on the way daily, and was very sure of its location. What about new passengers? Atleast a board like the ones for HoHO should be installed. I loved the idea of the board. The board should also have details of timings - first bus and last bus along with the expected frequency. (like the boards for airport buses). Preferably also display the details of stops along the way in a map like that of KS.

5. Zero Waiting Time Concept: I had described this in detail in my earlier post. This should be adopted for Big10 services. There was no bus anywhere in sight for 15 minutes at Brigade Road. And, I saw about 5 buses in a span of 10 minutes after that. To add to this, I traveled all the way in a rickshaw from Brigade Road to Koramangala, and no where on the route was the traffic held up. So, what cause clubbing of so many buses? Inefficiency is my answer.

I am keeping my fingers crossed for the Bannerghatta Road service. Let me wait and see if these service manage to reduce atleast one car from the road. And most important is to reduce the number of ricks on the road. While they are required for last mile connectivity, they are absolutely not expected to be carrying passengers for long distances along arterial roads - which should be the mainstay of buses.

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
VXB's picture

I can corroborate what

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I can corroborate what binaiks has posted. The bus crews seem pretty determined to shoot the service in the foot. I tried to take a Blue Line bus from Richmond Road (the stop opposite Richmond Towers, about 100 yards east of the Coffee Day). Two went past in the space of 10 minutes. Both were in the extreme right lane. I tried to flag them down, going out into the middle of the road to do so, but no luck. Also, having to buy two tickets to go from Manipal Centre to Richmond Circle is getting tiresome (It works out marginally cheaper by auto, possibly. Of course, it's another matter that I wouldn't ever get an auto to ferry me that distance at 8pm for less than Rs 30). Yesterday I asked the conductor to check with his supervisor at one of the stops and he did and came back and gave me the same story about how the service terminates at one point, and if you happen to pass through there in the course of your trip, you need to buy two tickets.
idontspam's picture

Good input

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Binai, VXB this is real good input. I hope Ashwin Mahesh is making note of these user experiences and more importantly talking to BMTC about these.
ashwin's picture

Big 10 buses should have route numbers

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So far, all the Big 10 buses I have seen don't have a route number, they only say "Big 10" on their LED displays.
Most people associate bus routes with the route numbers. This is also relevant in the light of the low literacy and/or local language issue. People with limited education can read and remember numbers, but may not be able to read destination names either because they read too slowly or are unfamiliar with the Kannada (and also English) script.
To have just "Big 10" would be confusing, especially where routes overlap for part of the way, such as Tumkur Road and Bellary Road.
The numbering could be in such a way as to differentiate these buses (although the paint job should do that anyway). For eg, right now numbering seems to go only till 500, so these could start from 600 or 700.
murali772's picture

how about a meeting, Prof?

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Hi Prof Ashwin Mahesh

I expect you are finding the feedback from PRAJA members quite useful. Can we possibly have a joint meeting with you, R K Misra, Dastagir Sherrif, Mr Pasha, and whoever you feel would be useful, ideally on a Saturday, so that Prajagalu can be there in strength?

Muralidhar Rao

Muralidhar Rao
binaiks's picture

We need to have a meeting...

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As suggested by Mr Muralidhar, we need to have a joint meet. I am sure prajas will have much more valuable suggestions to the BMTC and for ABIDe. There are many areas where BMTC can improve a lot, and in particular the new services.

I am sure, out of 100 opinions that may come up, atleast 75 will be beneficial and workable.

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
VXB's picture

The worst advertisement for

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The worst advertisement for the service is the empty buses. I've taken the Orange and Blue lines a total of nine times. Of these, on only three occasions was there another passenger in the bus with me. The most passengers I've seen in a bus (including the ones I've been in) is three.

The BMTC should do something, anything, to get people into these buses, because I'm sure there are people who may otherwise perhaps consider taking the buses who are put off, thinking there's something wrong with the service if it runs empty all the time. How good can it be if no one else is using them?

Tonight I experienced my first major delay over the six or so days I've been using the KS. I waited 32 minutes for a Blue near the Police Housing Complex on Old Madras Road at around 8pm. So there probably were about four buses bunched up right behind. The conductor recognised me from five days ago - more proof of how little the service is patronised.

idontspam's picture

Time to engage further

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I agree with Murali,  VXB, Binay, Murali and other praje who volunteered should meet and take it up with Aswhin Mahesh/BMTC. I really want to join this, I am unfortunately outside the country. I am sure they will be glad to have more people participating to make a difference.

I am dissapointed we havent heard from Ashwin Mahesh on this site. I hope he is busy working out solutions to your feedback with BMTC.

asj's picture

Bus lanes in action

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This is my journey on a London bus, lucky to have had vantage point on a double deck. But forget bus lanes for a while, notice the route taken by my bus (and there are 4-6 other routes all at 8-12 min frequencies) - it takes you closer to your destination than any other mass transit can - almost a door to door service and hence saving on time needed for walking or interchanges. Thumb rule - never restrict buses to just major roads and also avoid a class system of buses (it only complicates route rationalisation). Pune too has announced 6 different types of bus classes from ordinary to luxury AC - all at different costs - Wonder who worked out the demographics of who and how many will use which class? Expect some classes to go empty, but generally there will be sub-optimal use of the fleet.

ASJ

murali772's picture

no big 10, or HO-HO ride for now

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I was hoping to take the BIG-10 and HO-HO for the upcoming Praja Monthly Meeting at Cubbon Park on Saturday Feb 21, 2009. But, since I understand that they start only by around 8 AM, I suppose that can't be. Well, hope by the time of our next meeting, the services would be starting earlier.

Muralidhar Rao

Muralidhar Rao
bangalore-guy's picture

Big10 route list ?

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Writing on praja after a long time. Where can I find a list of routes/timings for the Big10. I am interested in using it and had been waiting for a long time for such a service. I am interested in the route connecting Hebbal/Bellary Road. cheers.
Vasanth's picture

Big10 also needed on ORR

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Big 10 buses are also needed on the Outer Ring Road. We have the 500 and 501 series of normal buses. But the frequency is not guaranteed and it is too crowded.

Naveen's picture

Hop-On /Off & Big-10 in Isolation may not work

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Hi All,

 

Having read through various inputs in this thread, I am not convinced this will work at all. Binai Sankar & Prof Ashwin Mahesh – many thanks for your views.

 

Many of the negatives have already been summarized above, but there is one very important point that has been missed out :  The service/s have not been supplemented with a vital action that is needed to ensure it’s success, which is restraining the use of cars & two-wheelers within the CBDs.

 

It is obvious that public modes for commuting can never match the conveniences of private modes. Thus, public transport, particularly street-based public transport in India is always fighting a losing battle with individual private vehicles since they do not have any priorities for quicker movement & will remain less efficient than private modes, operating in mixed traffic conditions. Private modes will thus, continue to remain as the first choice. Some may use this service, but these are bound to be only the “overflows” from the vehicles on the streets – the streets will continue to remain full of vehicles. Service standards of street-based public transport can only be as good as the traffic conditions will allow it to be, as regards punctuality & speed of travel. The effort of trying to offset this by improving the supply side with excellent, high quality air-conditioned, low-floor buses will not work, as it is secondary to commuters, who mainly seek quick access, low wait times, & fast travel. If the traffic continues to be heavy, buses will lose out as they can never maneuver as well as the more nimble private vehicles.

 

Traffic within CBDs & the approaches can easily be restrained by introducing very high parking charges as also reducing the supply of parking slots & strictly monitoring misuse of street sides for parking. This will erect barriers for private vehicle use & complaints of improper bus services will be received since people will have fewer alternatives for commuting within the CBDs. Thus, route plans & frequencies will demand & receive more attention, & eventually, the services may become successes, though this will take a lot of effort & patience.

 

Until traffic restraints are put up, these new services may not work, except to take on a few commuters who opt out of their private vehicles due to excessive traffic – the bulk of the traffic will remain & these new bus services may fail.

ash.mahesh's picture

A few updates

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- Bannerghatta road Big10 service will start Sunday. I have been thinking that the first bus on these routes is at 730, Murali, not 8. Will check.

- disincentivising personal transport can only happen when the public transport alternative is reasonably strong. I hope we can get there in a few months, but right now it would be a risk to start congestion pricing or its equivalents. Parking provisions at Big10/KS terminal locations is also pending. I hope this will happen in a few weeks at least at one location that has been identified.

- There will be two ring road services, also branded and coloured. The Outer Ring Road service already exists; I'll look at its frequency. Inner Ring Road service, which we have never had, will probably happen in late March, once at least 6 Big10s are in place. There is also some talk of designing transfer points between Big10 paths and ring roads. Ideas welcome.

I am gone for a few days. Will post next update on Thu next week.

Please choose the bus.
A

Naveen's picture

No "Push" to Use Hop-On/Off

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Prof.Mahesh,

Many thanks for keeping us up-to-date about these services. You indicated that public transport has to be strong before 'disincentivising' of personal transport can happen.

Parking is not being charged anywhere in the city in public spaces, such as along street sides & in common public parking lots. This was being done before, but it has been stopped now for many years.

With free parking for private vehicles anywhere in the city, undercharging (in fact no charging at all) for road or flyover use, & no priority measures for public transport on the streets, how will public transport ever become strong ? Is not public transport becoming strong linked to travel with private vehicles becoming weak simultaneously ?

What I foresee is that these buses, aimed at car & two-wheeler users, will keep running empty since there are no "push away" factors to make people abandon their vehicles & use the buses. Users for these buses will be the same people who are already using BMTC for their commutes. Thus, cars will remain on the streets & slow down movement of these buses. I beleive that people will never get out from their cars unless cost of travel by cars is made much higher & poses substantial inconveniences, such as non-availability of parking slots, etc. Till such time, this traffic nightmare is bound to continue. Those that use public transport would only be the ones who are non-motorized or are "overflows" from the streets. Unrestrained dominance by private vehicles on the streets would continue, as usual.

Hence, I had earlier mentioned that isolated attempts would not succeed in bringing about a turnaround & limit this growth in vehicle volumes.

idontspam's picture

Its the service, not just the bus

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We got the bus right and the route also done. Where is the service?

I am worried BMTC hasnt learnt any lessons from serving Bangalore for so many years. Corroborated by experiences of travellers in this thread; intelligent drivers, proper driving and stopping skills, timliness and frequency will be factors determining the success of any PT service.

Schedule has to be dynamic. For Big 10, 5 minute frequency with zero wait time has to be introduced during peak hours of 7:00 to 10:00 and from 17:00 to 20:00 it could be 15 mins frequency at other times. Extending service hours from 6:00 to 22:00. KS needs to be more frequent during lunch hours and evening shopping hours on weekdays and all day on weekends.

Stopping close to the kerb staying on the left most lane etc needs to be mandatory. Timliness needs to be drilled in. There is no other way a service will be trusted if it doesnt keep time. The buses need to be tracked on GPS and schedules adjusted dynamically to ensure buses are not bunching up mid way. And if you have GPS tracking feed the time to a simple LED display in the bus stands.

This I believe is the summary from comments and doesnt require lots of investment. Try these on KS route at least. It is a non critical route and BMTC has the bandwidth to experiment and innovate. A lot of cities are looking up to Bangalore. A lot of success here are being replicated elsewhere. There is an opportunity to innovate and set the direction and become the leader of the pack. Wake up BMTC!!! Put some effort into this

Vasanth's picture

Slight Modification to HOHO routes & HOHO passes

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Prof. Ashwin Mahesh, thanks for keeping us posted. I just wanted to add that the Hudson circle is the gateway for the southern areas of Bangalore. All the buses from Jayanagar, Banashankari, BTM, Hanumanthnagar touch here. Having both the HOHO routes touch the Hudson Circle would have helped a lot. Currently Orange Route does not touch Hudson Circle.

Second is having the HOHO touch the Vidhana Soudha. Both the routes should have criss crossed each other here. Lots of Government employees work in the Indian Express, Vidhana Soudha area. What I have seen is many get down at Hudson Circle popularly known as Corporation Circle and taken an Auto to these areas. Having HOHO to extend  here would have prevented the losses to BMTC provide easy transport to offices.

Modification of the Existing Routes -

Blue Line -  Currently From Kanteerava Stadium, it touches Hudson Circle and takes right onto UB City.

Modification - From Kanteerava Stadium, it should take left towards Corporation Office and Proceed on the Kempegowda Road till Mysore Bank. Take right on the Mysore Bank, proceed in front of Central College, cross KR Circle, Reach Vidhana Soudha, take right on the Indian Express, proceed towards Cricket Stadium, MG Road and continue on the existing route.

Orange Line -  Currently from Minsk Square, buses are proceeding towards Cricket Stadium and passing infront of Mallya Hospital.

Modification - From Minsk Square, it should proceed further till Indian Express signal, take left in front of Vidhana Soudha, proceed straight towards Hudson Circle in front of RBI crossing the KR Circle, take left towards UB City and again take right in front of Mallya Hospital and proceed with the existing route.

I was also thinking why not these HOHO buses should not be allowed on the MG Road main street between Anil Kumble Circle and Brigade Road Circle. Having these buses enter this stretch and having a stop in front of MG Road Metro Station would give excellent transport integration.

Also, Hudson Circle is an important junction for BMTC users. Chaning the bus stops here is an hassle for a pedestrain. Why not have a circular skywalk connecting Bus Stop in front of Corporation Circle, Bus Stop in front of Marthas Hospital on KG Road and Bus Stop on the Kasturba Road. Hop on Hop off will work seamlessly if we have these facilities.

Daypass for HOHO at say 25 rupees, Vajra+HOHO day pass at say 75-100 rupees, normal+HOHO day pass at say 50 rupees will help a lot. Starting monthly normal+HOHO pass, Pushpak + HOHO pass, Suburban+HOHO pass would  make this effort succeed further.

narayan82's picture

I Agree

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ID, I agree entirely to you.

Starting a Bus service with only busses and no supporting infrastructure is never going to work.

As an "experiment" and a model why not create the following for HoHo service:

  • A Busbay at EVERY stop of the HOHO
  • GPS tracking and signboards at each bust stop that sex "Next bus in __ mins"
  • International Quality Footpaths connecting the HOHO stop to MG Road
  • Bus drivers who will NOT allow passengers to get on/get off at intermediate juntions and will only stop at bus bays.
  • Have some dedicated, parking at HoHo bus stops so people can park thier cars.

I dont see the current HoHo Service as an alternative to cars. And even if parking is made paid, I still dont see car owners moving to this service.

The ironic bit is that BBMP has promised us busy bays and foot paths - now we should demand it!

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
s_yajaman's picture

Clear the bus stops of parked autos

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Was walking around Mayo Hall this morning.  At Mayo Hall bus stop there were quite a few autos next to the bus shelter.  This forced the buses to stop in the middle of the road.

Auto drivers have the right to carry on their livelihood.  But they cannot be a law unto themselves.  Now that the HOHO service has been blessed by the CM himself, the traffic police needs to do some rounds on those routes and clear the bus stops of autos.  Make an auto queue for them 50 m before or after the bus stop.  This makes sense as well that people getting off the buses can take an auto conveniently.  But at the bus stops is not okay.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

s_yajaman's picture

Pavements on Richmond Road and Residency Road - AWFUL

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The pavements on Richmond Road and Residency Road are in AWFUL shape.  They are narrow, non-existent at some places, encroached by hawkers, parked cars, etc. 

Proper pavements along HOHO are critical to the success of the service.  BBMP needs to get involved on a war footing and get the pavements in order.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

kbsyed61's picture

IDS, Der aaye Duroost Aaye

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 IDS,

  Without fixing the supporting infrastructure, we are expecting BMTC, ABIDE and other urban planners to do magic. As you said, flashy buses, circular routes doesn't necessarily a recipe for success. Unless bus stops at the bus stop what is the use of this offering. It is as good as no service that exists before the introduction of HoHo.

Exactly those were my views on the subject. But seems lost in the other noises.

http://bangalore.praja.in/discuss/forums/2009/02/hoho-a-slow-start#comment-11242

 I am not sure whether we did give any thought on direction and approach to the proposed fixes for our urban transport woes.

  1. All the panning, discussions seems to center around creating better infrastructure for private vehicles, cars and have's only.
  2. More BMTC services Volvos, KS and BIG-10 all catered towards Car users.

 Not a single attempt, planning, service to cater to those lakhs of ordinary B'lore citizens who for past40-50 years have patronize BMTC (and its previous avatar BTS). No concerned for the citizens who do not have any transport except the public transport.

 

 

Vasanth's picture

Seeing Dr.ASJs video we have so much wide roads!!

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After watching the video above posted by Dr.ASJ, I feel we have so much wide roads in Bangalore. Still we do not have the bus lanes. Can ABIDe push this. CBD atleast has got very wide roads to have Bus Lanes.

Vasanth's picture

Big10 integration with ORR buses

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Most of the big 10 roads meets the ORR using flyovers or underpasses. Example is the silkboard junction where Big 10 buses pass over flyover, Bannerghatta Road where buses pass in the underpass. Pedestrains have to walk on unfriendly foot paths and badly timed signals to go between Big10 and ORR  buses. Something needs to be done on this.

ash.mahesh's picture

HOHO expansion ...

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... is definitely on the cards, and will eventually include Vidhan Soudha, Mysore Bank, Cunningham Road, and even the railway stations, if possible. There are some issues on this front, however, which has forced us to start with the loop in its present scope, and we'll widen the coverage area in the next 2 to 3 months. We'll also have one or two projects finished, meanwhile (like Maharani's Jn) which will make it easier to do the expansion.

A

idontspam's picture

BMTC peak hour strategy

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I was reading Emirates strategy on Devesh's blog and was impressed how they customized their flights to take advantage of Bangalore's IT connections to US/Europe. BMTC could take a leaf out of this and go one step further from standard peak hour definitions. They can get traffic patterns analyzed by the industries in the major regions of Jigni, EC, Whitefield, Peenya and tune their peak hour definitions to provide maximum benefit. Jigni and Peenya have domestic brick and mortar industries which may go by standard peak hour while Whitefield and EC will have their peak hours shifted later because they need more overlap with US / Europe. The Big 10 frequency can be tuned accordingly.

Of course this is wishful thinking from me. BMTC will run buses when their drivers turn up for work on Bangalore Standard Time not when it makes sense.

binaiks's picture

Dear Mr Narayan GopalanHere

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Dear Mr Narayan Gopalan

Here are some of my point about your post:

1. HOHO services should not have bus bays, but they should run on designated lanes on the road. A lane on the left-most corner of the road should be demarcated for them, and they should run only on those lanes. 

2. The drivers must stop anywhere on request. Making them stop only at bus stops is more of a dis-incentive. Passengers should feel free to wave at the driver and get into a bus. We are talking about a bus which runs on dedicated lanes, and a restricted speed. With all these, it is just fair to expect drivers stopping anywhere on request.

Currently, Blue line terminates at Hudson Circle/Kanteerava Stadium, and Orange line at Bangalore Club/Richmond circle. The concept of "terminating point" should not exist. Now, a passenger from Richmond circle to the Chinnaswamy stadium has to pay for two tickets if he/she takes a Blue Line. (Which takes the shortest route). The hour-based ticketing system should come into force.

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
Samir's picture

My comments on Ho Ho

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I used the service for the second time today. Also went through all the comments on this forum. Many of them make sense. However, we should give this service time to stabilise. I also think we should publicise this service a bit more - through Radio, posters, etc. I must say I have had a very good experience both times I have used this service. I parked my car on a side road opposite Lido Theatre, and took the bus from Taj Residency. On all ocassions, I found the staff very courteous. My only disappointment was that all the 4 times I have used the bus, it has been either only me (and my family), or just one more person. I also think the bus must pick up and stop people at any place, rather than only at bus stops. This will make the service more popular. I think forums like this can do a lot to inform people about the service & timings (which has been done), as well as possible parking places for cars/2-wheelers near Ho-Ho bus stops. Parking close by is one big factor that will make people use this service more frequently. Else if the Ho Ho stop is distant from home, getting to the stop will be a deterrent in usage of this service. I am also a cycle user, and if cycle parking stands can be created near Ho-Ho stops, that will be outstanding. This will also be environment friendly. I do hope more Bangaloreans take to this service, and that it becomes more popular. Else, we will have ourselves to blame for our traffic problems. I thank Abide and BMTC for taking innovative steps to solve our traffic problems. With Regards, Samir Kumar
With Regards, Samir Kumar
narayan82's picture

Re:Binai Sankar

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I agree with you, partially. Yet practically i feel what your are suggesting is a bit hard to implement.

You see dedicated bus lanes here is going to have to be more than just a different colored lane. NoONE is going to follow and mere painted boudary. You will probably need a policeman every 10 meters.

What you will need is either a divider between these lanes or have the entire lane elevated! Also some places our roads are not wide enough to accommodate a bus lane.

Again, w.r.t "stopping the bus anywhere" - I feel its a little too much liberty. Maybe this can be at the drivers discretion. A set of bus stops not too far away (maybe 500 mts apart) will suffice. This way the maximum you wil walk to a bus stop is 250 metrs. IF there is no one at the stop the driver can skip it.

I shall hold on for a few more days of experiencing these busses before commenting!

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Transmogrifier's picture

Bravo Mr. Shisuvinahalli!

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Thought this was a valid forum to post this on. Hope still floats at BMTC...all we need at more drivers like Mr. Shishuvinahalli (emphasis added in the article below).

In his own words... “What will I gain by driving fast, which will inevitably inconvenience others? Moreover, at the most I may save just a couple of minutes. But at what cost?” He would only end up being tense and so did not think it worthwhile to speed...Mr. Shishuvinahalli said it was possible to stick to the schedule without speeding. Yes, traffic jams are a bother, particularly on Mysore Road, and schedules do get upset, but there was nothing one could do about it. But when there is no gridlock, he adheres to the schedule of 55 minutes for one-way... Careful driving is beneficial both for the driver as well as passengers and stopping at designated points will bring in adequate revenue.” (Source: Anil Kumar Sastry, The Hindu)

TM

TM

Ravi_D's picture

HoHo and Busbays

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Busbays depend on what we want this service to be.

Do we want this to be:

> a 'wave your hand (outside) / ring a bell (inside) to stop' type service or

> stop at predefined bus-stops every 250 / 300m type service?

If we decide on the latter, we should ensure we do NOT have the type of busbays being built everywhere. I'm going to send the following links to BBMP to take a look!

Look at this shelter in Madrid, Spain (first picture in this article). Signboads on the sides are 'removeable', and we don't need them!

This link lists guildelines for bus shelter design.

Ravi

rmb's picture

Whose baby is this HOHO/BIG10? SHAME ON BMTC

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It has been two weeks since the services had been started, alas look at BMTC's web site http://www.bmtcinfo.com/e.... It looks thier IT Division have not yet understood they have started such services. THIS IS PATHETIC. This kind of apathy is one reason why this sectory needs to be opened up for competetion under a regulator. One can understand the apathy of main stream media's (Electronic as well as print) apathy towards this innovative service (they had a half page advertisement on the day of inaguration, nothing else after that), but why does the operator itself ignore it? Probably updating their website does not provide enough kick back but printing/handing outs palmlets etc. is an area where their monetary interest will be rewarded. SHAME ON BMTC. rmb.
murali772's picture

namma karma

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Indeed true rmb avare'. For all of Prof Ashwin Mahesh's efforts, the service cam improve marginally at best. But, that's certainly not good enough for Bangalore if we have to have a solution for our traffic problems. And, quite like you have stated, the answer plainly lies in facilitating the entry of TATA's and TVS's into the field.

But, the only problem with that will be that the traffic flow on PRAJA will reduce drastically. For instance, do we bother at all with telephone, airlines (different from BIAL), banking, insurance, and such services, where currently there's healthy competition? PRAJA can of course re-invent itself.  

Well, more on that can be accessed at  http://www.praja.in/bangalore/blog/namma-nadu/2008/06/09/why-i-gave-bmtc,  and at many of the blogs I have started.

On this particular thread, let's bow to majority sentiments, take it as our "karma" and try and help Prof Ashwin Mahesh bring about that little change.

Muralidhar Rao

Muralidhar Rao
idontspam's picture

Not in our lifetime

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But, the only problem with that will be that the traffic flow on PRAJA will reduce drastically

No problems on that front. In our lifetime the quality of living is destined to be miserable. We are only fighting to see our children live in a better place. We already have pedestrian pictures up on another thread, people in the deepest forests of Africa will have better facilities.

verma.jatin's picture

Bannerghatta road Big 10

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Used the Bannerghatta Road Big 10 today. It only goes upto Shantinagar Bus Stand. Therefore does not serve the purpose of integrating with HOHO. It would be better if it goes upto War memorial through residency road and comes back via richmond road to shantinagar bus stand. Also if the existing Big 10 routes are slightly modified so that they can integrate with each other it would be better. E.g. Airport road big 10 can go upto shoolay circle and then turn towards residency road. It will be easier for commuters to change on to hosur road big 10. Similarly if bannerghatta road bid 10 also goes upto war memorial than commuters can then change to airport road big 10 and hosur road big 10 as well. I have taken the HOHO twice. Today I was the only passenger.
binaiks's picture

So Bannerghatta Road is on...

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Hi all,

So this means services on BG road have begun. The service surely did not exist yesterday, since I checked on the road both morning and evening. I am really elated that BMTC has got is wrong again. For some reason, I turn very pessimistic when it come to BMTC, and they always prove me right.

It is very nice that they run the service only up to Shantinagar - the buses will run empty all the time, and they can take that as a reason to shut the services. Good Job BMTC! Hats off to your thinking!!!

If at all the BG Road Big10 services are work, they should run atleast upto MG Road, and should preferably go via Adugodi-Sholay Circle, and NOT via Residency/Richmond road. The only existing service(s) via Adugodi is MBS13 and 368. MBS13 buses run from 0800 (ex Arakere MICO Layout) to 1800 (ex-MICO). They more or less maintain a frequency of 20-30 minutes. These buses go up to Hennur Cross, via Shivaji Nagar, Vasanth Nagar.

The other is 368 - has a pathetic frequency. Not more than one bus every 90 minutes or so. This bus invariably runs full through the trip.

Both MBS13 and 368 run full most of the time, since they are the ONLY buses connecting areas from Brigade Road to Adugodi/MICO Rear Gate towards Bannerghatta. So, a BIG10 service SHOULD exist on this route.

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
binaiks's picture

Is BMTC referring to Praja?

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HI all,

Looks like BMTC officials are now visiting this website! The Bannerghatta Big10 service now starts at around 0600 in the morning, and runs upto War Memorial on Brigade Road!!! The boards were showing "Jigani to SP Church". The bus was full as it left Arakere gate, and we so till Jayadeva Hospital. The Conductor had a very good business acumen - he shouted out aloud at every stop that Day passes and Rs 600 (Pushpak) passes are valid on this bus.

The Frequency, however, appears to be pathetically low. Crossed just two Big10s yesterday evening while traveling from Shantinaagr to Arakere Gate by Volvo. Today morning, my bus crossed a Big10 at Dairy Circle, and one near Military school. The driver did not stop at SP Church, and he took the bus straight to Brigade road.

More updates soon....

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
SB_YPR's picture

Change the HOHO route

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Hi,

Regarding Binai's comment, I feel the HOHO service on Richmond Road (which already has regular BMTC services) should be rerouted via Johnson Market - Cemetry - Wilson Garden - Shantinagar - Mission Road - Town Hall - Hudson Circle. That way, it can connect to the BIG-10 services and also serve people from Shantinagar Bus Stand as well as those in the congested areas surrounding Mission Road, Town Hall etc.


Regards,
~~~~
Manish, Nagarbhavi.

~~~~

Manish.

ash.mahesh's picture

Big10 along Adugodi-Vellara stretch ...

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I'm confused - from what I could tell today, Big10 service on Bannerghatta Road is running on this stretch, and not detouring through Shantinagar. BMTC had considered this briefly (and there was some delay in launching the service while this was debated) but my understanding is that in the end, it does run in a straight line up to Shoolay Circle. Correct me if that's wrong.

Also, there are now 14 more buses ready for deployment (they were delivered in a bunch by the workshop today), and this means that we should see Mysore Road service start on Sunday or Monday. Maybe even Tumkur Road at the same time. I'll go to BMTC on Saturday morning to find out.

A

s_yajaman's picture

Thanks Prof Mahesh

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Prof. Mahesh,

Thanks for taking the time to respond on this forum.  I will take the Big 10 from BG Road one of these days.  Where does it start from?

How is the HOHO service picking up?  Any improvement in loads?  I saw the Blue Line bus in new livery on MG Road yesterday. 

BMTC has still not updated their website on the Big10 service details. 

Regards,

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Naveen's picture

Big-10: A good Idea, but HoHo ?

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I think Big-10 is a great idea of directly connecting each primary road with the CBD & will surely pick up as it offers direct access. I am not so sure of the HoHo service though.

As many have already suggested, Big-10 must reach out up to where HoHo operates. Then, HoHo services might also pick up as dependence on other modes will diminish.

These services alone, with some "pull in" measures, like increased parking costs wihin CBDs might be sufficient to reduce car volumes within the city.

Thanks to Prof.Mahesh for advising progress on these services through Praja.

binaiks's picture

BIG-10 Services

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Hi all,

BIG-10 services currently exist on the following routes:

Electronic City - St Patricks Church (Via Bommanahalli, Madivala, Adugodi)
ITPL - Police Housing Complex (Via Marathahalli)
Jigani - St Patricks Church (Via Bannerghatta, Arakere, Dairy Circle, MICO)

A couple of days back, I saw about three brand new Big10 buses (without registration marks) heading to Shantinagar from Dairy Circle. The buses were built by VEERA Coach. So, perhaps, this was part of the consignment that BMTC has received now.

Manish, The existing HoHo service need not be disturbed. Newer services should begin. The only 'tweak' needed on HoHo for now is to allow anywhere to anywhere ticketing, instead of having to purchase two tickets if the end point of the service happens to be on the route. Like in case of Orange Line, IF you travel from Chinnaswamy Stadium/Musuem to, say, Brigade Road, you have to pass through Richmond Circle. Richmond is the end point for Orange line, and thus you end up having to pay twice the fare. If this anomaly can be corrected, then am sure this would serve as a connection for Big10.

However, a new service connecting Shantinagar, Brigade Road, Stadium, etc are required. Say a route like this: Shantinagar - Richmond Circle - St Marks Road - Anil Kumble Circle - Shivaji Nagar - Chinnaswamy Stadium - Mallya Hospital - Corporation Circle - Shantinagar ;; And in the opposite direction via Shantinagar-Corporation Circle-Chinnaswamy Stadium-Shivaji Nagar-Mayo Hall-Trinity Circle-Residency Road-Richmond Circle-Shanti Nagar. The former - I am sure will click - since there are a lot of passengers changing buses at Shantinagar to head to Shivaji Nagar.

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
verma.jatin's picture

Reg : Bannerghatta Road BIG 10

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Hi, Travelled by BIG 10 from Bilekahalli today. It goes straight on Bannerghatta road upto war memorial. Might have been a one off case of it going to Shantinagar the other day. Also the frequency seems good. But the load factors are low. BMTC needs to advertise these services. Even their website is not having any info Only info available is on btis.in Its a very good concept wherein you have buses at high frequency so no more long waits at bus stops. BMTC should also advertise some sort of route planner with Big 10 and HOHO highlighting where a commuter can hop from one service to another.
ash.mahesh's picture

low load factors ...

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Two quick things on this ...

How 'low' are the load factors? In your trip between Bilekahalli and Brigade Road, how many people do you think would have been on the bus in all (albeit in different segments)? The Suvarnas cost about Rs.23 per km to operate, so on each Big10 route, it costs about 350 bucks to run the bus. At an average of Rs.10 per ticket, that's 35 tickets, and if you assume segmentation of 25%, this is a load factor of 60 per cent (there are 44 seats). So, if everyone has a seat, and about 10 seats are empty throughout the journey, the service will still pay for itself!

The first few days of data from the Big10 services suggests that this is happening. Yesterday, for the first time I saw a schedule (BMTC parlance for a vehicle) that earned a profit, in terms of rupees per kilometre, over the course of the whole day.

I took the Kendra Saarige service today, and discovered a couple of nice things. Taj Residency has figured out that it can use the service for its clients who have business meetings in UB City. Next week I'll talk to more hotels in the area about this kind of value in a systematic way.

Please choose the bus.
A

Devesh's picture

Help circulate the map and build awareness

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Let's not keep the Ho-Ho to ourselves. Spread the word. PLEASE!!!!

Official Route Map Kendra Saarige Ho-Ho

or for those more map focussed

I have also put together a Google map. http://www.bangaloreaviat...

What I can say is that the Ho-Ho needs our immediate support in the form of publicity. Download them, email them, print them, but CIRCULATE them. Ho-Ho is in peril since it is running below par performance, and let us not give the politicians and detractors a chance to screw this great service up.

Sorry to be blunt Prajagale, time to stop talking and start doing something.

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
s_yajaman's picture

Big10 target segment vs buses running full

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Prof Mahesh,

Nice to see that KS has found a serendipitous set of users. 

Big 10 - buses running full is one thing.  But are they just cannibalizing BMTC users?  That really is not the intent is it?  Stopping at regular bus stops means that a person planning to take e.g. 368 or 356 will now board a Big10.   Is that success?

The objective is to get bike and car users to leave their private transport behind - correct?  The Big10 buses have to stop near the big apartment blocks (even if it means making a detour).  If the mountain won't come to Mohammad, then Mohammad has to go to the mountain.

Again what we like to think of as a CBD (MG Road/Richmond Road)  is really not the CBD anymore.  It is a major thoroughfare for East-West and North South movements.  Having a KS sort of service from Churchgate or VT in Bombay towards World trade Centre/Marine Drive, etc makes a lot of sense.  I am just not sure this is the right strategy for Bangalore.  Sorry to sound negative but I am just struggling with good answers to some of the issues here. 

Srivathsa

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

s_yajaman's picture

Devesh - good buses not equal to a great service

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Devesh,

Sorry - but  I will be equally blunt. 

a. Good buses don't mean good bus service.  I waited 20 minutes for a HOHO at Hosur Road smelling urine from the nearby wall turned lavatory.  I paid Rs 30 to go from Hosur Road to Kasturba Road (Rs14 by auto) for 3 of us.  I did it only to keep one auto unemployed.  I will use it again, but not everyone will go out of the way.

b. The bus for some reason does not touch UB City's footsteps.  I would take the HOHO through Cubbon Park (Seshadri Hall) onto Grant Road, Airlines Hotel, Bowring and then to St.Marks Road and to Kumble Circle.  MG Road being off limits is incomprehensible.  if we can still have parking on MG Road, that beats me.  Ban the bloody parking and run buses.  How much space does 1 bus take every 10 minutes?

c.  On Residency Road - there is one stop at Bangalore Club and one at Mayo Hall.  Have one at  New(??) Opera also.  Brigade Road users will at least think of using it.

d. Basic question is - who is the target consumer?  Where does he typically go?  What are his/her needs?  Where will he PARK his car to take HOHO?  Where does he begin his journey?  With BIAL this was easier.  With this it is not as easy.  Stopping at bus stops and shouting for passengers fills this bus, but is that the idea? Where is the consumer data on this?  Everything centres around the WHO.

e. You really want to take cars off the roads - you need direct limited stop buses to E-City and ITPL and not just from Majestic - but from Jayanagar, Koramangala, etc.  If you see MG Road and Residency Road crowded with cars, it is because people don't have other roads for their North-South and East-West journeys. 

Srivathsa

 

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

narayan82's picture

I agree with Srivatsa.Great

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I agree with Srivatsa.

Great Busses does not mean great Service!

One pro active agency (BMTC) cannot solve the problem. It has to be a joint effort from all stakeholders. And really, as a car owner if I did want to take a HOHO - where CAN I park my car? I drove around the route looking for Ideas but there was no definite parking spots. The usual Spots where I park my car if entering CBD are: Garuda Mall, Symphony Theatre, Opposite Opera house on brigade and Rest House road! Everything is walkable from here, I wont use a Bus service.

I would really like BBMP and BDA to have a stake in the HO HO Service.  It pains me to see expensive fuel guzzling busses go stark empty! Whilst thier sisters on the 335E route seem to running house full!

Lastly, no body is going to swicth from a car option unless they are forced to. So we need some exorbidant parking fees, congestion tax and solid enforcement. But before that we need a reliable, clean and comfortable service.

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
narayan82's picture

some suggestions

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Some ideas from my side - which can get people to use the HOHO service:

  1. Have dedicated Multi Story Carparks around the CBD. The Parking Ticket can be the bus ticket valid for the evening.
  2. Let retail establishments such as Shoppers Stop...etc - reimburse not a parking ticket but a HOHO ticket!
  3. Make brigage road, M G road (Brigade rd junction - Kumble circle) for busses and pedestrians only!
  4. Tie up with schools to use HOHO service. This way the 100 cars that come in to drop their children needn't enter CBD
  5. Ban Autos from CBD
  6. instead of A 10 Rs flat fare give a 20 rupees ticket valid for 3-4 hours.
  7. Sodexho coupons should be redeamable on the HOHo service.
  8. Hotels like Taj/Oberoi can offer guests a Free HoHo ticket
  9. Have a weekly HOHO ticket lucky draw!
  10. Get some celebrity endorsements so that HOHO gives you the same status symbol of a car!

My wishlist from the BDA /BBMP/Traffic Police for the HOHO Serivce

  1. Build a dedicated Bus bay for every bus stop on the HOHO service
  2. have a CCTV camera at every bay to ensure the drivers pull into the stop
  3. Create pavements that women with 6 inch heels can walk on without loosing step!
  4. Ban Parking on narrow/main roads and increase the widht of the pavement
  5. Parking can be brigade road style, expensive and time bound for a maximum of 1-2 hours.
  6. Dedicated bus lanes where possible
  7. General Hygene to be maintained. Not have urine smelling walls and overflowing drains

I meanwhile while try using the HOHO service again tomo.!

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
kbsyed61's picture

HoHo - An Elite service, For Elites?

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Devesh,

  Sorry to be very blunt. To me this service lay outs the thought process of our planners. The whole planning revolves around the car owners. There is nothing in this service that serves anything to the ordinary daily commuters who uses BMTC service regularly. In that scenario, it will not be wrong to describe this service as "ELITE service, for Elite Class, By the Elite People".

Don't expect the HoHo service to be runaway success. The service lacks in everything that it needed to be successful. Tell me what is the difference between an ordinary BMTC Black board bus and this HoHo bus, except for the flashy Bus and the route? Except these 2 different variables, nothing has changed on ground. Same bus stop exists, which neither can explains the rational for its location nor for its usage. Same operational mentality, Drivers and conductors continues to operate in Govt/public relationship rather than in Producer/customer relationship. How can you expect increase in ridership if the bus doesn't stop at bus stop? As commented by Yajamanre in his post, would you patronize the service which doesn't even give damn about you?

 We all went gaga abut Brunner and Co in BIAL, saying they don't listen. Looking at the luke warm responses I see here on this discussion, we seems to be competing with BIAL management. Pages have been written here with real time experiences along with some sensible suggestions. Except for few here & there comments, I am yet to hear a comprehensive response to the given feedback and grievances. May be we use 2 different measures - One for Brunner & co and one for own ABIDe, BMTC and govt to be not left behind.

 Devesh, show me the urge and willingness on planners part to engage the commuter community, all in the interest of the general public, I will take the next flight and camp in B'ore for full one week. I will personally distribute fliers/handbills and advertise the HoHo service in all major public convergence places like bus stands, malls etc.

 Why me, every Praja member would go out on weekends and start advertising, provided they are also engaged. It should be 2 way engagement.

 

rmb's picture

At last BMTC owned up thier babies, half hearted attempt after 3

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weeks of starting the services.
http://www.bmtcinfo.com/e...
Thumps up BMTC for showing the guts.
rmb.
Rithesh's picture

HoHo Usage Update

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I used the HoHo bus service from Minick's Square to Trinity Circle. The service was excellent. According to the driver, he stops for pickup and drops at any place along the route - dont know about the traffic implications but i though it was wonderful. Both the driver and conductor were extremely courteous and well mannered (this is quite opposite to what others have stated above). He was kind enough to give me the route map and also explain it to me.

But unfortunately i was the only one on the Bus. Till around 3:30, they had completed 11 rounds and the total collection was just Rs.40 (including my Rs.10). On a week day the collection would be around Rs. 300-400. This is dismally low. Each round is 9 KM and volvo's give an average millage or around 2.25 KM/liter of diesel. He also told me that there are currently 3 buses running in each direction.

Time based ticketing as suggested by IDS and connectivity to Shivajinagar are crucial. I discuss this with the driver - the main reason he told that they have avoided Shivajinagar is because of the difficulty in entering the bus terminus - one way issues - after a little bit of discussion (they were very friendly) he suggested this route to touch Sivajinagar terminal. From Cubbon Road - deviate from the current path towards Indian Express Building -> Shiavajinagar Bus terminal -> Exit via Lady Curzon Road -> Infantry Road -> Safina Plaza -> rejoin the current route. My first impressions are that the roads are wide enough for Volvos to navigate easily - however this needs to be verified.

Also Brigade road, Chruch Street, Commercial Street should all be made traffic free. At some point the whole of CBD should be made Auto/Taxi free zones. Parking fee should be introduced in this region and their rates should be 3-5 times the normal rates.

It doesnt really make sense to run this service if it can not sustain itself (does it make sense to cross subsidized with the parking fee revenues in the region?)
binaiks's picture

Volvos to Shivajinagar

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The roads are wide enough for Volvo buses to negotiate, around Shivaji Nagar. BMTC is already operating Volvo buses from there to Bannerghatta (368), Kamakya (13F), Majestic (198?), ITPL (335?). So, the problem of road width does not arise. However, a major problem is traffic congestion. The entry to the bus station is narrow, and there is always a traffic congestion around the place. Moreover, I feel they should shift the terminus to Shantinagar instead of Bangalore Club.

Instead of taking a left at Richmond Circle, all they need to do it run it towards right onwards to Double road and BMTC Shantinagar. This will ensure more patronage, and will help a lot by reducing the autopopulation.

Both the 'lines' - Orange and Blue - should be made to touch Shivajinagar, as well as Shantinagar.

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
s_yajaman's picture

Learning from BIAL VV

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I took a Suvarna bus yesterday to BIAL (my wife dropped me off at Kogilu cross).  I saw several VVs heading towards town - almost all of them were full.  A sight for sore eyes. 

Some lessons from that service after the early hiccups

a.  Know your target consumer. 

b .Keep at it even if the early signs don't look good. 

c. Catch the rider at source.  Once he sits in the bus, he will find a way to complete the last mile.  The other way round is not true.  Once I sit in a car, the incentive to change to a bus reduces.

d. Good visibility.  It is hard to miss the VV service at the airport.  It is hard to miss them even if you are in a taxi going to the airport.  You keep seeing one after the other

BIAS needs to improve though

a. No bus shelters on NH7 for people waiting.  I was waiting on NH7 and not on the service road.

b. At night I don't know how anyone can find the bus stops.  They need to do better than that signboard.

Srivathsa

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

mandayamr's picture

Why should HOHO be only a VOLVO?

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HOHO may be successful if some of the suggestions are implemented -the points about the fare/day pass seem the easiest to correct.

Arun's suggestion on smaller buses makes lot of sense to me.  I suppose that we could have AC versions of Swaraj Mazda buses that are already used by BMTC.  Is AC an option or essential?  It would be interesting if BMTC could make this decision based on

1. What is the initial cost of a VOLVO versus an AC Swaraj Mazda versus a non AC Swaraj Mazda?
2. What are the costs / km of running the buses?  Probably costs/km/passenger, given an average load of 50%?
3. What are the maintenance costs of these buses?  What is their mean time between failures?
4. Which one of these has a better revenue/km or revenue/passenger potential?  That is which one is likely to have a better load factor?

Since Prof Mahesh has provided some data on the costs of running a Suvarna, these may already be a part of the decision making matrix.  It would be interesting if he and ABIDe could share this with the public at large - am assuming that there is no issue in doing so.
asj's picture

Costing

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I am very interested in knowing how the costs of running a service are worked out. Rs 23 / km - what contributes to this figure? Does it include costs of repairs, service of vehicles, spares, drivers, conductors, cleaners, overheads of support staff and managers, overheads of managing depot's.......is the cost off-set by money earned from other sources i.e. advertisement....

If a Suvarna can run at just Rs 23/km and Rs 350 per one way route and needs only 35 people to go even (at ticket of Rs 10), will it not make sense to have one or at most two types of bus classes - this way the bus becomes an equaliser (good PT systems are just that, not an elite service for and by elite). But more importnatly, given that people travel short segments of a given route and a bus has capacity for 50 not 35, up to 100 passengers can be served easily per trip - will it then not make sense to have buses that are running full and tickets are cheaper so all and sundry can use them (rather than focus on converting car owners).

It will help to understand the costings and how they are worked out. I have posed this question to PMPML in Pune which charges far more than Rs 5k annual pass charged by Mumbai's BEST for use on all types of buses (its 6k including AC) - massive value for money given that BEST runs superior frequencies and connects to all parts of city (oft needing either no change or at most one change). 

ASJ
 
binaiks's picture

Yahoo! BMTC Did it again!

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I am really excited! I just can't believe that BMTC can always rob my thoughts! 

The concept of Kendra Sarige and Big10 was based on the assumption that the areas around MG Road, Cubbon, Residency Road, Richmond Road constitute the CBD. (Kindly correct me if I am wrong). Therefore, buses from different parts of the city should be heading TO the CBD during morning hours and not the other way round.

BMTC did what it loves to do the best - the buses run in the opposite direction!!! Take the example of BIG10-2 (St Patricks Church - Electronic City). [See the schedule shown on the BMTC Website]

The first bus leaves from SPC at 0730, and the last bus at 2120. The First bus from Electronic City leaves only at 0850, while the last bus goes at 2220. Although running buses late at night is a good feature, but what does BMTC intend to convey by running the first bus only at 0850?

Electronic City in itself is a huge employment area, and hence running the first bus from SPC at 0730 is a brilliant idea, but what about people traveling TO the "CBD" for work in the morning? Does BMTC assume that offices begin only after 1000? Why isn't the first bus timed in a manner that it would reach its last stop atleast by 0800?

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
ash.mahesh's picture

Big10 times ...

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There is some amount of depot streamlining that needs to happen before we get the right mix of starting times and service levels for Big10. I will see if I can get the Hosur Road service to start earlier, in this case, but I'm also wary of interjecting too much. For the moment, the focus is on expanding the service to all the 10 roads (Mysore Road will start this week), and progressively tweaking Kendra Saarige to cover more of the CBD. There are some unfortunate but real bandwidth issues is working on multiple fronts, and I'm satisfied with the way things are going, for the moment.

<p>
Someone had raised the question of Big10 cannibalising the fare of other routes. I expect some of this will happen (I've heard this from some BMTC officials also), but I see this as a good thing. A data-understandable system based on a grid approach should be preferable to a destination-based system, for both the provider and the user. We should use the opportunity to rationalise some of the other routes, whose 'last-mile' value is often the justification for launching them, but the bulk of whose haulage happens on the 'trunk'. We will really understand the potential of the new approach only when the first neighbourhood service launches, and also when the Inner Ring Road service gets going.

<p>
One other piece of data I dug up recently. Transport for London gave me these numbers - about 60% of their costs are met through subsidies, and there is not a single bus route that is profitable. We need to start thinking about the cost/benefit proposition around public transport, and put numbers around the total cost of our choices, not just the operations of the fleet.

<p>
I appreciate the feedback and inputs on this forum. Please choose the bus, and I will try to do what I can to make this an increasingly easier choice to make.
<br>
A

ash.mahesh's picture

next Big10 services ...

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Mysore Road tomorrow, and Bellary Road on Sunday or Monday. There is also some discussion going on to make the Big10's cross-city (i.e. 5 lines, running on two roads each. For example, Bellary Road - Hosur Road could be a single Big10). The pros and cons of this are worth debating here.

<p>
A


rmb's picture

Big10s cross-city

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I had proposed this earlier.
Considering the trip pattern of traveling public, this makes sense. Not many are working at the core city, I meant core city which is covered by Kendra Sarige now. The core city is not the CBD as per the CBD concept. Many more people will be working/traveling to ITPL, ORR, E-City etc. than to the Core City.
Current Big 10 route plan adds the core city into the trio mess (Market-Majestic-Shivaji Nagar), it is not direction oriented per se. A Big 10 starting from Mysore rd can for eg: end the journey in Whitefield, thus it acts as the current Big10 with 2 less change overs.
Thanks very much for considering the proposal and it is heartening to few thinking out of the box solutions compared to the moron BMTC ( They should have the best professional talent being in the field for so many years, but the opposite seems to be the situation).
rmb.
idontspam's picture

Cross city Big 10

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The cross city BIG10 is a good idea. You may have to ensure it crosses as many KS stops as possible on the way across CBD. And also ensure that inside CBD, stops other than KS stops dont become interchange points from one cross route to another.

idontspam's picture

Early riser schedule

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The First bus from Electronic City leaves only at 0850, while the last bus goes at 2220. Although running buses late at night is a good feature, but what does BMTC intend to convey by running the first bus only at 0850?
 

EC is a predominantly industrial area and not a residential one. The only ones leaving from EC in the morning will the people who stayed over on night shift who will be relieved when the morning staff arrives. It makes sense to have buses leaving when the first buses start arriving. Also the peak hours in places like EC and ITPL is not the same as peak hours in either CBD or places like Peenya or Jigani.

While I agree BMTC is generally sleepy and not friendly to an early starter it is important to have some data on the number of early workers and tune it appropriately. All BMTC needs to do is ask ELCIA to provide shift and travel patterns in EC which will be very good stats to start services appropriately.

narayan82's picture

Core Ring road

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I've always wondered what happened to that Signal free Core ring road that the BDA promised us. It could prove vital. You see, right now to cut across the CBD you have to go through the centre of the CBD. Hence, though the HOHO surrounds it, many busses plunge right into the heart of it.

If we had a CBD - then we could route all the BIG 10 and other busses that pass through CBD around it instead. This way we have less traffic within. The HOHO meanwhile, connects the core ring road with the interior of the CBD in semi circle routes.  I have illustrated this below.

CBD - Bus stops

HOHO should be the only bus serive on the route. Right now, the 335 E or other Volvos and normal busses take part of the HOHO's route hence keeping the load factor on HOHO low.

Also then we can think of constructing Parking facilities at the Core Ring road and HOHO stops interchange. The time taken or a BIG 10 service to cross CBD will also be less.

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
rmb's picture

wondering how did BMTC arrive at flat rates for BIG10/HOHO?

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I had been wondering all these days, till I read http://www.bmtcinfo.com/english/Reports/flat_fare_sysytem.pdf
Slowly am going to change my perspective about BMTC :)
Few other study reports @ http://www.bmtcinfo.com/english/studyonbmtc_Chapter1.htm
rmb
binaiks's picture

Are Big10s for End-to-End passengers only?

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Hi all,

EC is a predominantly industrial area and not a residential one. The only ones leaving from EC in the morning will the people who stayed over on night shift who will be relieved when the morning staff arrives. It makes sense to have buses leaving when the first buses start arriving. Also the peak hours in places like EC and ITPL is not the same as peak hours in either CBD or places like Peenya or Jigani.


So do you intend to say that these buses are for passengers originating at Electronic City only! Even if EC is a predominantly industrial area, there are many crowded settlements after EC. Not all the passengers in buses originating at EC board there. More than half the passengers board at stops between EC and Madivala. So aren't these passengers eligible for an early service, just because there aren't passengers to board from EC????

EC itself has a fairly big residential area surrounding it. So, my point is that the first buses from EC too should be leaving early in the morning and NOT after the first bus arrives. Moreover, Depot-19 (EC) as well as Depot-32 (Chandapura) have Big-10 buses which operate on this route. These buses can conveniently start early in the morning and operate ex-EC. 

Moreover, I feel that Chandapura or Attibele would be a better choice of origin than EC. These places are more crowded and deserve better bus services. 

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
ash.mahesh's picture

Core Ring Road ...

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Conceptually, the idea of establishing the core and guarding it against non-core use is right. Also, with higher FARs near the Metro stations, I think the CBD will get denser in the years ahead, so the core will be increasingly more vital to manage. One of the troubles with routing non-core services around the periphery of the core is army land in the east/southeast. There's no easy way to connect Langford Road to Command Hospital without skirting the army land south or north. The former would mean a large 'core' and the latter would bring the core virtually up to Kendra Saarige itself.

<p>
Can someone take the Mysore Road Big10 tomorrow or Saturday, and post their experience here? Likewise with Bellary road on Monday?

<p>
A





kbsyed61's picture

Details needed on Mysore Rd, Bellary Rd BIG-10!

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 Prof. Ashwin,

 Could you pls provide more detailed info on these new 2 BIG-10 routes? Information like its route, fare and important areas it will cover?

 Actually this will be a kind of advertisement to the Praja community. I was wondering, if there is any publicity done prior to the introduction of the service like 30 sec ad running on CCTV in major bus stations, Railway Station, Paper Ads, Ads in Radio/TV etc?

Vasanth's picture

TTMCs for Bus Stop Integration at junctions of ORR and Big 10

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Better bus stop integrations between ORR and Big10 routes needed. May be a TTMC at Jayadeva (no land there for TTMC, BMTC needs to figure out), Silkboard for integration with Hosur Road, Kanakapura Road (Banashankari Bus Stand can do this), Nayandahalli / Kengeri for Mysore Road, Marathalli Bridge for Airport Road, KR Puram Railway station for Old Madras Road, Hebbal for International Airport Road and Tumkur Road.

These TTMCs with buses from ORR as well as Big 10 entering into it (I really don't know how to do it) should ease the change of buses just like changing trains in a train station.

kaundinya's picture

Mechanism to make busses stop at bus-stops

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To include a sensor in every bus-stop which records which bus has stopped at that place with the time and duration of the stop. The busses should also have some transmitter with a small distance range. This mandates the busses to stop at the exact stops and that too very close to the stops, unlike at the right lanes or at the signals. The rest of the traffic can move freely with predictable bus movements.

ssheragu's picture

Mechanism to make busses stop at bus-stops

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Helllo Kaundinya For buses to stop at bus at stops positively, I have a sugegstion; this suggestion, praja will understand well with graphics APART FROM SENSORS & OTHER GADGETS BEST IS - to provide entry door to the bus on the same side as the driver; i.e. as one faces the traffic flow, door should be on the right side - provide bus bays recessed from the main road - if the door is provded on the same side as the driver, the bus will not stop on the main road, as the pasenegers will have get into the bus from the middle of the road, thereby endangering themselves & the traffic - the bus will enter the bus bay and the passengers will get in wthout endangering themselves and without disrupting the traffic - with graphics this suggestion can be presented properly & implemented without any drawbacks you can contact me onmy mobile for further discussion Mob - 9448351343 many thanks Srinath Heragu
srinirao's picture

Encouraging people to use Public transport(BMTC) by Tax Sops

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About the above discussion on Poor response BMTC i have following suggestion where in a common man is encouraged to use Public transport by giving Tax sops to him by Governament.
Most of the private companies issue food coupons on the monthly basis to their employees. With these coupons employees are forced to do purhcases in the outlets even though they are not comfortable with it. In the similar lines BMTC/Govt should issue monthly BMTC prepaid vouchers/passes where in the bearer of such voucher/passes is entitled for a ride using this transport. The passes should be compulsarily issued by all by the employers in exchange of travel allowance. And there is a income tax benifit out of it as well, which will make employees to use it.

This will enforce many people who has the habit of going to MG Rd/Commercial st/To Office using their private vehicles, use this facility(public transport).

The govt can also think of converting Rs. 800/- pm given towards transportation allowance to the employees to these BMTC vouchers. I think this is perhaps the the good way to handle laziness of people.

Please put in your views,
regards
Srinivas Rao. M
 
 
 
premv29's picture

Encouraging people to use Public transport(BMTC) by Tax Sops

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Hi Srini

Excellent view point. Once the employees get provided with the BMTC vouchers which can exclusively used only with BMTC, the employees kind of either forego this part of their salary (as they still want to stick on to using their nasty 2/4 wheelers to pollute the city much more and also choke the traffic)- these funds will invariably flow to BMTC or even better change their mind and get on to those nice volvo buses everyday to office.

I know, in Hungary, the transportation has tied up with all the major companies for this kind of an initiative and it is tax free if you opt to get the transportation yearly pass. Well, the only difference in Hungary is that it is still optional for the employees to choose the transportation pass (not compulsory) - as people are already aware of the favourable metro services are much better than choking in the traffic.
I probably think that this kind of an offer will be more enticing once the Metro is in place and the pass is valid on everything - Metro, Buses (all types) etc.
The disadvantage would be for those people who are living close by to their office (in this case, there must be some kind of exceptional provisions to waiver this kind of a rule). Just a thought!

regards
Prem
premv29's picture

To Prof Ash

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100 users have liked.

There should be a redressal system which must work effectively (even a hotline number published in the bus-stops), in order to support the commuters favourably. Why I raise this point is as pointed out by Binaik, that he was stranded without a single Orange line stopping for him, he could not do much than just stand and watch and atlast give up by going after the bus near the signal? The hotline number should be able to work in a way that the feedback should be immediately factored into the drivers. This may also give a kind of hope to the commuters that there is someone listening to their woes also. I know that the current BMTC hot line number is not that helpful, but the KS/Big 10 should get into this mode (should probably think of hiring some good Kannada/english speakers from Call-centers who can do this job dedicatedly).

regards
Prem
srinirao's picture

Encouraging people to use Public transport(BMTC) by Tax Sops

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Hi,
This in response to the feedback given by Prem, Thanks for feedback Prem,
The number of employees who wants to forego the part of salary will gradually reduce over the time. Nobody wants to waste their hard earned money if its given in this way. They will either try to gift these passes to their relative or they will try to sell it to some one else, I think this is fine as long as the money  and the facility is not wasted or tampered.  The same model exist at present for the food coupons, but people have accepted it. Many retail chain and restaurants are getting benifited out of this pre-tempted(did not get the right word) customers to their business.
Good that you brought in example Hungary transportation, a live working model.

Yes, this model wll be more effective when you have integrated transport system. Where in the passes issued will work for BMTC, Metro, Mono etc., But to start with, This can be introduced for BMTC fleets. Later when we have Metro, Mono systems comes, this can be extended to new services. By then this model would have also matured and well accepted by the people.
As with respect to people who are staying closeby to their offices, well it is upto them to use it or gift/sell these passes to some one.

Is somebody from BMTC/ABIDe listening to these Ideas  ? I hardly got any response to this idea .
I meant not much of brainstorming/criticism  happening.

regards,
Srinivasa Rao. M
 
ash.mahesh's picture

Big10 and Kendra Saarige updates ...

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Tumkur Road Big10 service (up to Nelamangala, I think) will begin this weekend (that would be the sixth road), and Old Madras Road is likely next week (seventh road). BMTC has also brought the Hosur Road service up to 15 buses now, up from the initial 12, and Whitefield service also has 14 buses now. Similar expansions on other roads is also likely, as awareness and patronage kick in.

We've now finished a whole range of discussions on Kendra Saarige, and also clarified all the upcoming Metro-related road closures. The additional branded buses from Volvo are also delivered. The revised routes should start soon (maybe this weekend), and I'm confident we will begin to see the occupancy levels grow to satisfactory levels once that happens. We've taken a mix (business as well as non-business travelers, shoppers, walking-avoidance, circular as well as orthogonal travel, etc) and put together the routes.

I will post the routes here one fhe Form 4 is created for each service (probably tomorrow night). I will myself take both the Blue and Orange lines a few times once this revision kicks in. Please also take a ride when you can on the service, and post your feedback.

Thanks,
Ash

rmb's picture

What about a promotional event on a couple of week ends?

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Professor,
What about a promotional event for KS & BIG 10 over a week end? Say a Rs 5/- ride on KS and closing heavily crowded areas like Commercial Street for private transport on a couple of week ends after advertising the event?
RMB
s_yajaman's picture

Looking forward to see the new HOHO - will try it for sure

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Professor,

Thanks for the update. Waiting to see the new routes.   Will take the HOHO this weekend and give you feedback.

is the BG Road Big 10 running?  BMTC does not seem to update their website very frequently on new routes.

Thanks,

Srivathsa

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Vasanth's picture

Marcopolo Non A/C buses

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Professor, Tata Marcopolos running on Delhi BRT routes are quite easy for boarding just like Volvo with lowfloors. BMTC initially bought 2 A/C Marcopolos and did not procure it further. Non A/C Marcopolos are as faster as Volvos and equivalent to cars in speed with half the cost at around 35 Lakhs. Why can't BMTC try it on Big 10 routes and have alternative Volvo and Marcopolo non A/C for HOHO service.

Currently the Suvarna buses are very poor in pickup and with manual transmission. One day I took Volvo on the ORR to the office in peak hours and it took me 40 minutes another day sametime, same traffic scenario I took the Suvarna, it took nearly 1 hour with the same stops. Bus pickup was very poor.

One of the demotivating factor for people to take Public Transport is the poor speed and poor frequency. This poor speed can definitely eliminated by having buses equally faster as cars. Automatic transmission buses also eliminates the jerks.

 

narayan82's picture

I agree

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Vasanth,

Good point.

People use the Volvos not because of the brand but because of the comfort.

The marco-polo busses costs 50% less than Vajras/VV. It is also A/C. These kind of busses can get car owners to switch. Unfortunately from the inside the Big 10 is a suvarna quality. It is also non-low floor and makes one put in more of an effort.

But, as lazy as people may sound - we need to pamper them which such luxuries to get them to leave cars behind. I am sure Ashok Leyland too can manafacture low floor busses at a lowe cost.

A/C I agree isnt neccessary for Bangalore's climate. But the covered windows does keep the dust out. Hence It makes the ride cleaner and quiter.

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Naveen's picture

MarcoPolos Not as Good as Volvos

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In Delhi, there were many reports stating that many features on marcopolo buses did'nt work properly. In addition, another brand of buses from China (Siun-lunge, or some such name - used in mumbai, I think) also has complaints, according to paper reports I had read some time back when they had just been introduced.

The success of volvos in bangalore can be attributed mainly to excellent suspension, quick pick-ups & speed. One never sees a door left open or a bus struggling uphill. Thus, the ride quality is really great. In any case, I dont think a 35 lakh bus can be as good as a 70 lakh bus for sure !

idontspam's picture

Low floor for old & disabled

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But, as lazy as people may sound - we need to pamper them which such luxuries to get them to leave cars behind

Low floor is not necessarily for lazy people... they are helpful for the old, disabled and children too.

narayan82's picture

Volvos and Low loors

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IDS:

Very true that low floow helps diabled/old/children. But, what I mean is that even "normal" people prefer using thier car as opposed to climbing three steps to get on a bus!

Naveen:

Yes, there is no way a 35 Lak bus can better a 70 Lak bus. But, assuming the present blue and white/suvarna busses costs about 25-35 laks each is there any way to build them in a better way? Mayne NOT A/C but low floor, pneumatic doors that work/remain shut and that they dont struggle over a speed breaker!

I feel we need a bit more luxury in our present suvarna kind of busses. Luxury not in the sense of reclining seats but some simple ergonomics, space and clever thinking. Definately the busses used in Bangalore are far better than the BEST/Chennai or delhi busses. But if we could go that extra mile - we may even make a bigger difference.

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Ravi_D's picture

Big10 - Mysore Road - Observation

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Been observing Big10 buses on Mysore Road almost daily, transiting to & from work. When the service started (a week or so ago), it was hard to spot them (lack of buses?), with only one or two passengers in each.

In the last two/three days the number of buses seem to have gone up quite a bit. I see a Big10 every 10 minutes or so apart. Three buses I peeked into seem to have atleast 80% seats occupied (around 9am in the morning and 6pm in the evening).

You don't see as many apartments / residences along Mysore Road as you would on other Big10 routes. I guess most of the users now are switchovers from other overflowing BMTC routes. If the idea were to switch private vehicle owners to buses, Big10 somehow needs to connect to places like Kengeri Satellite Town, RR Nagar, Residences along the Ring Road, Deepanjali Nagar, Parts of Vijayanagar etc. - well beyond walking distance from Mysore Road.

Ravi

Vasanth's picture

Mumbai with King Long buses

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Mumbai is using King Long A/C buses, a chinese make.

narayan82's picture

Examples of Busses

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Here are some examples which IMO could help the BIG 10 services


Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore

Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
idontspam's picture

Reliability and reach

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I think we are drifting away from reliability and reach issues plauging our PT services today which are the key to mass acceptance

Reliability is your ability to plan meetings relying on PT and consistency in travel times.

Reach is your ability to get a service within 500mtrs from anywhere in the city.

Beyond that even the best looking buses will come a cropper.

s_yajaman's picture

@Narayan - other buses

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Narayan,

The lavender buses are being used on some routes in Bombay.  Their name spelt CERITA or some such thing.  They ply on routes 461 (Thane to Borivali), 422A (Mulund to Andheri E), 415 (SEEPZ to Andheri E).  They look HUGE.

I have seen the Tata Starbus plying in Nagpur.  They are low floor and will suit HOHO quite well.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

s_yajaman's picture

New HOHO routes?

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Prof. Mahesh,

Any update on the revised HOHO routes?  I checked both www.btis.in and www.bmtcinfo.com.  But no news on revised routes.

Thanks,

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

bangalore-guy's picture

Bellary road BIG10 is a big-disappointment

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ashwin's picture

Slight change in Blue Line

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There seems to be a revised map on the BTIS site (compared to the map I had downloaded earlier) which indicates a slight change in the Blue Line route. Looks like it will take a left from Cubbon Road onto Lady Curzon Road to get to Infantry Road. It seems to pass by Safina Plaza - so that is one more shopping destination on the route. It then (almost) touches Commercial Street before coming back to Cubbon Road.

Can't see any other change. Shivaji Nagar/Indian Express still not covered, although it comes closer now.

binaiks's picture

Big10 Fare structure changed?

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Hello All,

It appears that the fare structure of Big10 services have been changed now. Earlier, the fares was Rs. 5, 10 and 15. Today, one conductor said that this has been changed to 5, 8, 10, 13, 15. A good move considering the fact that some passengers were being over-charged while some were under-charged. The conductor said that the first four stages are billed Rs. 5, and then changes every two stages. The fare is somewhat like this (According to him):

Stage - Fare
1 - 5
2 - 5
3 - 5
4 - 5
5 - 8
6 - 8
7 - 10
8 - 10
9 - 13
10 - 13
11 - 15
12 - 15

This is just what I could understand, and there could be some mistakes in this information. I request Prof. Mahesh to kindly confirm if this information was right. 


--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
ssheragu's picture

Big10 Fare Structure

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ssheragu it is true that by having fares like Rs 5, Rs 7.50, Rs 9 etc. all passegers will be charged evenly. however by having fares like Rs 5, Rs 10, Rs 15 etc. there are many advantages 1. it is easy for both conductors and the public, as there will not be any problem of change in the fare transaction (problem of exact change will not be there for both the conductor or the passenger) 2. even if the fares are slihtly higher, BMTC will earn additional income and hence it can privide better service to the public. 3. in fact this type of fare structure (Rs 5, Rs 10, Rs 15 etc.) should be followed in all buses and routes many thanks Srinath Heragu
VXB's picture

The HOHO Orange Line route

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The HOHO Orange Line route seems to have changed - and by a lot at that. Took one at about 8.15pm last night from near Commercial Street to go to Bangalore Club and the conductor said the bus was going to Majestic. Does anyone have information about the new route? Also, has the Blue been discontinued? I didn't see a single one in 25-odd minutes yesterday.
s_yajaman's picture

Yes - HOHO has new routes

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Please check www.btis.in/ks  Don't look at the main image but look to the right for the new routes.

Blue HOHO : Trinity --> Richmond Road --> Shantinagar --> Lal Bagh Main Gate --> Minerva --> Town Hall --> KGS -->Maharani's College -- KR Circle --> Vidhana Soudha --> Indian Express --> MG Road --> Commercial Street --> East Parade Church --> Trinity

Orange : Other way round except that it comes on Lal Bagh Road and Residency Road.

No idea about the frequency or fares.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

narayan82's picture

Carry HOHO forward...

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The new route seems to have more potential.

I wish BBMP starts a HOHO service with pavements. Hop onto a pavement - walk to your destination- hop off the pavement :) That should do the trick for the old route!

Narayan Gopalan

User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Narayan Gopalan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
binaiks's picture

Yes! HOHO Has Changed!!!

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Hi all,

HoHo Routes have finally changed for good! 

The new route is: 

Blue Line: Shantinagar Bus Station --> Lalbagh --> Minerva Circle -->Corporation --> KBS --> KR Circle --> Shivaji Nagar --> Indian Express --> Commercial Street --> MG Road --> Trinity Circle --> Richmond Circle --> Shantinagar Bus Station.

Orange Line: KBS --> Maharani College --> Corporation --> Lalbagh --> Shantinagar Bus Station --> Richmond Circle --> Mayo Hall --> Trinity Circle --> Commercial Street --> Indian Express --> Shivaji Nagar Bus Station --> KR Circle --> KBS

The number of buses remain the same (i.e., Three). I am sure this route would succeed. This route is perhaps the first one to directly connect Lalbagh to Mayo Hall area, and vice versa! I hope BMTC gives more publicity to these services and run them at a nice frequency.

--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
--
Thanks,
Binai Sankar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Switch to Public Transportation, Save your city
Naveen's picture

Routes Look Great Now !

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Well, they finally seem to have got it right. Now, the Hop-On/Offs should be seeing a lot of crowd & maybe they will need to add more buses soon !

ash.mahesh's picture

New Kendra Saarige routes

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There will be at least 8 buses in each direction soon. The buses have been painted at Volvo and the inspection is going on. We should have them here in the next few days.

I think there are pluses and minuses from the new routes. Of course, getting people to use the service in numbers is an important plus (and by going to KBS, Shantinagar, etc this factor is taken care of). But it would be nice to see a north-south service too at some point (the current ones are more east-west than north-south). But let's take the wins we can get now, and think ahead next.

I had an interesting conversation today on feeder services for the Big10 routes. Some of the small vehicle manufacturers - Reva, Tata, even Hyundai - may all have an active interest in this. Let's see how this develops.

A
ash.mahesh's picture

Hopefully the slow start is over!

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I heard from BMTC officials that the load factors on kendra saarige were quite good the last couple of days. More buses will be added tomorrow or the day after, and the branded vehicles from Volvo will also be here soon, so there will be a fair amount of visibility too.

I know that some of you will have feedback on the routes. Let the service run for a couple of weeks, and then we'll debate which might be better (further minor tweaking, or a third line :-))

A
Vasanth's picture

KS - Entering KBS introduces delay

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Prof. Mahesh, Kendra Saarige entering KBS introduces lots of delays due to traffic Mysore Bank onwards and back till Maharanis. We have every locality in Bangalore connected to KBS with virtually 75% of BMTC buses entering Majestic. With Metro line also intersecting at KBS, I think it is not needed for KS to enter KBS.

This will increase the frequency of buses and reduce the delays. It would be more attractive to customers.

Vasanth's picture

Custom Built A/C buses for Big10

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Professor, another requirement is the introduction of A/C buses for Big10. Volvos are pretty expensive  (nearly 4 times than custom A/C buses) and also many of the roads like Magadi Road, Kanakapura Road do not have the road infrastructure to handle Volvos.

Many of the private companies like Sugama, Durgamba, Sharma and even KSRTC retrofit A/C to Leyland and Tata buses. Why not BMTC experiment custom built A/C buses and try it on Big10 routes by running in between normal non A/C Big10 routes.

A/C buses are needed because the roads like Magadi Road, Kanakapura Road are all very dusty and noisy.

kbsyed61's picture

Big 10 causes big trouble on city roads

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Curysey - Deccan Chronicle.

DC Reports "..The Big 10 bus service is causing traffic snarls in the heart of the city. Ironically, the service was introduced to decongest the Central Business District (CBD)..." For details read,

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/neutral/big-10-causes-big-trouble-city-roads-720

Vasanth's picture

Introduce Parisaravahini on HOHO too for Integration of Passes.

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Well, day pass does not work for HOHO and it works for big 10. Many of the all day travellers around the city and even the visitors to the city take the day pass. Same is the case for Pushpak / Suvarna passes.

One cannot HOHO (hop off big 10 hop on KS) from big10 to HOHO.  Adding normal Parisaravahini intermittently along with Volvos for HOHO should help a normal BMTC customer. Blackboard passes should be allowed on this since blackboard pass holders are the highest.

Introduction of Parisaravahini will reduce the running cost, increase frequency, serve all class of people, mainly help daily BMTC commuters. Nobody just wants to wait forever for getting a Volvo. They want to move fast which needs increased frequency which can be achieved by this.

Volvos were introduced to attract car customers with such a nominal price, but it seems not to be working out as expected.

Let BMTC make its normal customers more happy.

Vasanth's picture

HOHO map - Difficult to understand

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On the HOHO map, there are no arrow marks in the direction in which the buses travel.  Often I interpret bus traveling in opposite direction. Arrow marks needs to be added.

Also just to have BLUE LINE and ORANGE LINE side by side, many places they have done the mistake in drawing the map. For example, Orange line does not enter the Lalbagh west gate, only blue line enter Lalbagh west gate. In the image, ORANGE LINE is so close to BLUE LINE near Lalbagh West Gate but without a circle there using which we have to guess that ORANGE LINE does not come to Lalbagh West Gate.

Main loop around is Majestic. Just for integration with Magadi Road, they seem to have taken the HOHO to Majestic. Otherway around, BMTC wants almost all its vehicle enter Majestic.

Naveen's picture

Admin - Can we Close This ?

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Can we close this abnormally long thread & start afresh for Big-10 & Hop-On /Off Issues ?

Well, I think I will start one anyway.

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