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BIAL to City train - proposal on table

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Commuter RailPublic Transport

Building on the good vibes about Commuter Rail Service, hear this out now. Devesh mentioned that at a recent meeting where BCIC was taking up the cause of those who commute to BIAL for work, Mr. Arvind Jadhav indicated that a proposal to introduce train service between the BIAL and Bangalore city (via Yeshwanthapur) is being finalized. The service would be operational once the formalities are completed. Quick details:

 

  • Bangalore City to BIAL, dep 10:30 am, arr 11:30 am
  • Bangalore Cant  to BIAL, dep 2 pm, arr 3 pm
  • BIAL - City, 4:15 pm, arr 5:25 pm
  • BIAL - Cant, 12:30 pm, arr 1:40 pm

(see attached image as well)

Its time for some quality suggestions with regard to the above mentioned train service. I suspect that right now the service could be aimed for use by those who commute to BIAL or Devanahalli area for work - perhaps a "foot in the door" strategy to get this started now, and then think of doing more with time. Good show Mr Jadhav and team, keep going.

[Posting this on Devesh's behalf as he struggled with image upload. This site needs an easier way to share images.]

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Train to BIAL.jpg168.31 KB

Comments

blrsri's picture

should it be around peak hours?

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Indeed a very interesting move..but who will this link cater to? Passengers - isnt the trumphet exch a lil too far from the apt? BIA employees - shouldnt it be catering to the work hours 9-6? Anyways as you say its the best move fwd for now!
silkboard's picture

some questions

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Some questions Devesh:

  • Are we talking a greenfield station near trumpet exch? Not mentioned clearly in the proposal note. Can this greenfield station grow as a real mobility hub (refer Mr Jadhav's thoughts about moving SWR's services out of City station)?
  • Cant - BIAL rakes reach BIAL at 3 pm, and service from BIAL back to Cant starts at 12:30 pm. Is there an error there, or will the rakes stay overnight at BIAL station?

There already is a bus terminal on the other side of trumpet exch. BIAL would probably think of an underground subway going (under NH7) from this new station on the other side to the existing bus terminal.

As Mr Jadhav had mentioned, the location of that bus terminal itself is a problem. a passenger interchange like that can't be so close to a national highway. Refer some past discussion on design of this trumpet transit point:

It will take too much time to do markings on top of tarle's old picture, so let me describe the problem with the station. Notice where the train tracks are? Right under where the flyover goes above the tracks is where the new station could come up. And the bus terminal could be moved from this side of NH7 to somewhere closer to the new station. If moving the bus terminal, we are looking at some new road work to facilitate U turn from and back towards the City. So there is some cost involved now if we want a public transport hub around a new station. You see what happens when you design things with just vehicles in mind :)

Another picture of the trupmet area if above diagram wasn't clear.

The best thing would be to think of that greenfield station somehwere further north of this point. I don't have maps handy, nor is google earth updated for this area, so can't think clearly at this time.

Vasanth's picture

Route is not electirifed - DMU may be used

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Yelahanka - Chikkaballapur line is not electrified. Currently a Diesel Multiple Unit with 4 cars run between Bangalore - Chikkaballapur. Probably same train will be used here also. Note that this train does not have A/C car. It is second sitting - probably not to the taste of Airbound passengers, but will serve the purpose of beating the traffic.

kbsyed61's picture

Borrowed Idea !

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Is this a another case of borrowed idea of low hanging fruits, CSR that were suggested on Praja? In past also we have seen ideas/phrases being borrowed from praja discussions. If it is, it's good sign. This also demonstrates that we need to look for low cost, low hanging fruits for all our city civic and commuter issues rather than going for Multi thousand crore projects.
Devesh's picture

BIAL Commuter Rail Service

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The existing Chikkabalapura line runs right underneath the trumpet between the road and the airport. So the existing railway station is proposed to be used, and shuttle buses between the station and airport.

Even Mr. Jadhav agrees this is not a perfect plan. The timings are not during peak requirements, but he has asked industry and citizens for help. As you very rightly put it, this is just a start. The main goal of CSR is to have trains from Bidadi to Hosur via Byapanahalli, and vice versa. Similarly connectivity to Malur, Tumkur and other satellite industrial areas.

SB, I was busy focussing on administering the meeting. Can I request you to please elaborate on Mr. Jadhav's presentation to the committee, especially, rail and multi-modal connectivity.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh's picture

Borrowed Ideas and low hanging fruits

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Syed, you are so right. Very frankly, at the state of affairs right now, the government needs to commence with any fruit, even the low hanging ones :).

SB, will confirm, in the infra committee we are proposing just this approach. Unofrtunately most administrators and politicians are judged by the amount of money spent on a project, not the effectiveness or the currency to needs.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
asj's picture

Very sensible

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Excellent news indeed. Good example of using exsisting infrastructure by augmenting / optimising it = very cost effective too.

SB, you are very right in highlighting the problems of short sight when you say 'see what happens when you design thing with just vehicles in mind'

ASJ
silkboard's picture

in the papers finally

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So finally, its in the newspapers, today. No additional details there though. They have quoted Mr M N Sreehari saying that that station near Trumpet exchange (Yarthanganahalli) is being considered for upgradation. No talk of dates as yet.

Devesh, the report is painted in ABIDe colors. If they have indeed been pushing for this, well, more glory to them as well.

Guys, please chip in with quality suggestions. Make them detailed and analytical, lets get the Praja gyan flowing on this :)

ASJ, thanks. Tarle had done such detailed analysis of the trumpet exchange back in late 2007. See how precise he was about some of the things !

Multiple Use Station

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IMO,

The Yarthanganahalli station near the Trumpet Interchange should be converted into a full fledged TTMC. This way people going towards Hyderabad and other north bound destinations can use the Yarthaganahalli station instead of SBC/Majestic. This would partially decongest SBC/Majestic.

This would enable more frequency and scale which would make CRS from SBC to BIAL more attractive.

I just hope the proposed train will run from SBC via Malleswaram as well.

Adequate timings and information exchange about frequency and timings are a must. 
s_yajaman's picture

Excellent - needs some tweaking

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Devesh, SB,

Great stuff.  At least the horse thinks that the water might quench its thirst.  Four trains each way - means 4000 passengers off the roads.  I can't see any reason SWR cannot accommodate  2 trains from SBC (a.m./p.m.) and 2 trains from Bangalore cantt (a.m./p.m.).  If this works, then no need for any blooming HSR.

a. What is the route for this train - SBC -> Yeshwanthpur --> LG Halli --> Yelahanka -->? and Cantt --> East --> Byappanahalli--> Yelahanka-->?

b. Given that most trains chug out of SBC only after 6:00 a.m. (Shatabdi, Lalbagh, etc), can we push SWR to run a train that chugs out of SBC at 5:00 a.m?  This will reach the trumpet at 6:00 or so - good for passengers who want to fly out at 7:30 ish.  The peak traffic out of BIAL is 7:00 to 9:00.   Will also help employees reach their work spot reliably and economically.  The same train can run back from the trumpet at 8:00 (a lot of incoming then).  Similary two trains that chug out at 7:00//7:30 p.m from SBC/BCant and 8:30 p.m from BIAL.

c. Ticketing - need to have many counters if 1000 people need to board this train.  Have a round figure - Rs. 20/30/40 - whatever to facilitate quick issuance of tickets and change.  The rs. 23/34 or whatever will lead to long lines/flared tempers, etc. 

SB - what analysis are you looking for? 

Srivathsa

 

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Add Malleswaram

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I hope Malleswaram can be added to the SBC - BIAL route. If atleast a two minute stop can be provided, it would make a good difference.

I can write / campaign with our MLA, Dr C N Ashwath Narayan if needed. He is my neighbour and went to the same school as I did. 
blrsri's picture

why so circuitous?

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apt

Was checking the route the rail tracks take..found it cutting the highway twice and having many turns..

I dont know how railways work but what I have seen of road ways is that NHAI relays roads with fewer curves..does IR do this too?

Curves slows down trains and if we are exploring this as a stable option we need to cut the curves..I am not sure if its a valid suggestion at all..but why not!?

Vasanth's picture

This is the same route which I suggested earlier

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This is the same route for BIAL high speed link that I suggested except to run on the Metro route till Yeshwantpur.

Coming to the curves, it is not as curvy as blrsi has shown here. Track is straight from BLR SBC to YPR. Within 5 minutes, trains reaches YPR. After YPR there are curves, but not steep curves to slow down the train. After all it will be a 4-8 compartment train.

Also, trains should not stop in each and every station like a passenger train. SBC - YPR - Yelahanka route is not electrified. So, Diesel Multiple Units can only be run. DMUs have slower pickup compared to EMUs (Electrical Multiple Unit like Mumbai Locals). A stop will result in loss of 10 minutes. So, we cannot afford to have multiple stops and expect high speed. If everyone starts requesting for a stop in a station near to their place, it will lead to longer travel time. This is what that happens whenever a non-stop train is started between any two cities. 

 

 

 

idontspam's picture

Wonderful news

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Lets hope BIAL responds positively to the proposal. The timings proposed will not do justice to measure the effectiveness of the service. Good start to 2009 nevertheless. Hope the new year brings better traffic management, better road infrastructure, better pedestrain facilities and better public transport to the people of Bangalore (better=world class, no less)

I do not believe in the long term we need to burden SWR with this CRS responsibility. As a next step I suggest GoK work with BMLTA to create a CRS authority/SPV which will plan for the future expansion of this service. I believe we can use the PPP model for this too where the CRS ropes in a private party to bring in better rolling stock and operational effeciencies. Let this not be run entirely by the state or centre at the same time let this not be completely privatised lest we go the way of UK rail. We are still not good when it comes to regulating private parties.

I had proposed earlier that BMLTA/CRS authority rents tracks and runs the service. I quote below the switzerland model which can be followed in co-operating with SWR. Instead of ordering railways stock we could have the CRS PPP run their rolling stock just for the Bangalore service after paying toll.

***Swiss federal law dictates that the infrastructure (rather the rails) of the entire Federal Railway system must be available to outside parties at equitable prices. Therefore, the Infrastructure division of the Federal Railways receives set "tolls" from all companies that operate on their rails, including their own. Local commuter rail services are "ordered" individually by each canton as a distinct service; this principle of ordering allow the SBB CFF FFS to offset operational losses in this sector of the market. Intercity rail is not directly subsidized since it is profitable.***
blrsri's picture

route with curves as from satellite..

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test

Meanwhile Devesh's idea has made it to the press..wish that it can also get across to the right folks..

http://www.bangaloremirro...

DBP

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The upcoming Devanahalli Business Park and the proposed Hardware Park would in the future have lots of workers coming from the city. This will create the additional frequency required which would support the economics of the CRS project.

Therefore, IMO, the commuter rail link should not be scrapped because of wrong assumptions that there is not going to be enough commuters to begin with. The initial numbers maybe small, but it will grow eventually.

But before implementing the project - it should take into considerations the above points as well. Most importantly as i reiterate again - have a full fledged TTMC at Yarthanganahalli next to the trumpet interchange. 
Devesh's picture

Circuitous - existing route

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BlrSri,

The CRS will use existing rail infrastructure. From Bangalore City to Yeshwanthpur to Yelanhanka via the existing line. From Yeshwanthpur there is a line that branches north towards Chikkapalapura. This is the line that goes past BIA. Similarly the other side of the loop is Cantt to Byapanahalli. Chandrapur, Yelahanka.

As I have understood, the choke point is Yelahanka station since both the lines come to the station, and there is a lot of through traffic from Madurai, Salem, Trichy side towards Bombay, Hyderabad, Gujarat, etc.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
blrsri's picture

Hurrah! Ppl are listening!!

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http://www.deccanherald.c...

HSRL plans may after all go into cold storage!

Vasanth's picture

Let us start with service - Performance tuning later

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Blrsri, let us start with the service, later on we can see performance tuning. That much curve shown in the map is OK. If you have travelled to Mysore in train, you should see the curves. Atleast travel from Majestic to Nayandahalli. There is a curve on the right immediately followed by a left. Kids when the train is empty usually will be watching a curve on the right window and immediately towards left window to see the train on the left window. For this distance, not too much of time is lost especially when compared to road traffic scenario. (10 minutes to Nayandahalli as opposed to 1 hour by road).

Railways wants to connect many villages on the way and hence this route. The curvature is because it is connecting BettaHalasuru.

Again, to change the alignment, it is a huge investment - land acquisition (which is most expensive in this area as of now), new track, track stabilization takes atleast 6 months to 1 year. It is like rebooting a system. The ultimate aim here is to utilize the existing route.

Vasanth's picture

DMUs - how they look?

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The BIAL train will be DMU since the line is not electrified. Here is the link of various DMU models available in IR. It also contains the Chikkaballapur - SBC DMU photos which was earlier 8 train coach which has been now reduced to 4 coaches due to less occupancy.

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Suburban/DMU/

and here is the link for the related FAQs:

http://www.irfca.org/faq/faq-mu.html

 

Vasanth's picture

Here is the timing of the existing Chikkaballapur train

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SBCBANGALORE CY JNStarting Station1/2/2009 18:05
MWMMALLESWARAM18:0918:10
YPRYASVANTPUR JN18:1418:15
LOGHLOTTEGOLLAHALLI18:1918:20
KDGHKODIGEHALLI18:2318:25
YNKYELAHANKA JN.18:3218:34
TLSBETTAHALSOOR18:4018:42
DJLXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX18:4618:48
DHLXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX18:5218:54
AVTXXXXXXXXXXXXXX18:5718:59
VTEVENKATAGIRIKOTE HALT19:0319:05
NDYNANDI HALT19:0719:09
CBPCHIK BALLAPUR19:55Destination Station

DHL is devanahalli station. 50 minutes needed from SBC.  Such a huge investment (7000 crores) to save 20 minutes. I just wanted to ask everyone what is the percentage of people in Bangalore use Airport per day to call for such a huge investment and how much percentage of population in Bangalore have travelled in a plane atleast once in their lifetime. Planners wants to be in news and hence make such 'Hi-Fi' plans and media will blow it out like anything.

s_yajaman's picture

Thanks Vasanth

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Vasanth,

Thanks for the info on DEMUs/DMUs.  One of the new aerodynamic DMUs is quite good and can pass off for a good "Airport Express".  Agree that the curves won't pose much of a problem - not with a train that is not going to cross 80kmph.  I think without some of those stops, this DMU can finish the run in 45 mins.  A round trip in 2 hrs - 2 DMUs - one train every hour!!! I must stop dreaming. 

Thankfully, (I think Devesh has some hand in this :)), some sense has dawned around this white elephant called HSRL.  With 1/10 of that investment we can add a track from SBC to DHL and electrify it and have a captive power plant to run the EMU!!!  The other thing that has been shelved is that airport expressway as well.   Another 1000cr saved. 

6000-7000 crores spent wisely on good public transport, footpaths, etc can take the load of the roads and benefit 10 times as many people and win them 10 times as many votes from Bangalore.  Devesh - please put this into their heads.

I am pulling out data on how many trains go through Yelahanka Jn daily from the railways website.  Will make an Excel sheet and send it across to Devesh and SB.

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

SB_YPR's picture

Existing and future trains : Schedule

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At present there are TWO trains running between Bangalore and Chikkaballapur : one more apart from the one mentioned by Vasanth. Assuming the airport station to be at Devanahalli, the compiled schedule of available trains would look like this (SBC=Bangalore City;DHL=Devanahalli):
City-Airport
1. SBC 0840/DHL 0940*
2. SBC 1030/DHL 1115
3. SBC 1400/DHL 1500
4. SBC 1805/DHL 1855*
Airport-City
1. DHL 0855/SBC 0945*
2. DHL 1230/SBC 1340
3. DHL 1615/SBC 1725
4. DHL 1640/SBC 1805*
*Existing Bangalore-Chikkaballapur trains.
Four trains a day is not bad but I think there is scope for a couple more as well. What say, friends?
Regards,
~~~~
Manish,
Nagarbhavi.

~~~~

Manish.

Vasanth's picture

Occupancy on the Yeshwantpur - Yelahanka Route

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Track between Yeshwantpur and Yelahanka is not occupied much. Track between SBC and Yeshwantpur is double track and this is less occupied compared to the Cantonment route. Here is the timetable of trains between Yeshwantpur and Yelahanka. Please note that we have missed the train which doesn't stop in Yeshwantpur - one such train is Rajadhani Express.

Also note that weekly special trains are more than daily trains. Journey between two stations is 15 minutes, maximum crossing wait time is 15 minutes (much less than our jams). Also we have 2 stations in between YPR and Yelahanka at Lottigellahalli and Kodigehalli.  Chikkaballapur track is almost free since there are only 2 trains, one in morning via Cantonment and other in the evening via Yeshwantpur. Infact, this track is almost lying idle with railways. This is an opportunity for them to get back the investment by running trains with first class compartments. Seeing the current fares of Indian railways A/C chair car, fares can be as low as just 100 rupees for A/C chair car.

 

TRAIN NAMESTARTING STATIONSUMOTUWETHFRSASOURCEARRIVAL AT SOURCEDEPARTURE FROM SOURCEDESTINATIONARRIVAL AT DESTINATIONDEPARTURE FROM DESTINATION
GORAKHPUR EXPYASVANTPUR JNNNNNYNNYASVANTPUR JNStarting StationDay 1,07:30YELAHANKA JN.Day 1,07:48Day 1,07:50
GUNTUR PASSRYASVANTPUR JNYYYYYYYYASVANTPUR JNStarting StationDay 1,08:15YELAHANKA JN.Day 1,08:37Day 1,08:38
SBC-HUP PASSENGERBANGALORE CY JNNYYYYYYYASVANTPUR JNDay 1,18:54Day 1,18:56YELAHANKA JN.Day 1,19:13Day 1,19:15
SBC-CBP PASSBANGALORE CY JNNYYYYYYYASVANTPUR JNDay 1,18:14Day 1,18:15YELAHANKA JN.Day 1,18:32Day 1,18:34
BASAVA EXPRESSYASVANTPUR JNYYYYYYYYASVANTPUR JNStarting StationDay 1,17:25YELAHANKA JN.Day 1,17:43Day 1,17:45
HAMPI EXPBANGALORE CY JNYYYYYYYYASVANTPUR JNDay 1,22:40Day 1,22:43YELAHANKA JN.Day 1,23:01Day 1,23:03
MACHLIPATNAM EXYASVANTPUR JNNNYNYNYYASVANTPUR JNStarting StationDay 1,14:45YELAHANKA JN.Day 1,15:03Day 1,15:05
KACHEGUDA EXPYASVANTPUR JNYYYYYYYYASVANTPUR JNStarting StationDay 1,16:15YELAHANKA JN.Day 1,16:33Day 1,16:35

 

From the other side it looks like this:

TRAIN NAMESTARTING STATIONSUMOTUWETHFRSASOURCEARRIVAL AT SOURCEDEPARTURE FROM SOURCEDESTINATIONARRIVAL AT DESTINATIONDEPARTURE FROM DESTINATION
WAINGANGA EXPKORBANNNNYNNYELAHANKA JN.Day 2,12:53Day 2,12:55YASVANTPUR JNDay 2,13:30Destination Station
BZA YPR PASSVIJAYAWADA JNYYYYYYYYELAHANKA JN.Day 2,15:24Day 2,15:25YASVANTPUR JNDay 2,16:55Destination Station
BZA YPR PASSVIJAYAWADA JNYYYYYYYYELAHANKA JN.Day 2,16:19Day 2,16:20YASVANTPUR JNDay 2,17:30Destination Station
HUP SBC PASSENGERHINDUPURNYYYYYYYELAHANKA JN.Day 1,08:20Day 1,08:22YASVANTPUR JNDay 1,08:38Day 1,08:40
CBP-SBC PASSCHIK BALLAPURNYYYYYYYELAHANKA JN.Day 1,08:58Day 1,09:00YASVANTPUR JNDay 1,09:17Day 1,09:18
KRBA-YPR WAINGANGA EXPKORBANNNNYNNYELAHANKA JN.Day 3,02:55Day 3,03:00YASVANTPUR JNDay 3,04:00Destination Station
BASAVA EXPRESSBAGALKOTYYYYYYYYELAHANKA JN.Day 2,09:20Day 2,09:22YASVANTPUR JNDay 2,10:00Destination Station
HAMPI EXPRESSHUBLI JNYYYYYYYYELAHANKA JN.Day 2,04:43Day 2,04:45YASVANTPUR JNDay 2,05:15Day 2,05:20
HAMPI LINK EXPNANDEDYYYYYYYYELAHANKA JN.Day 2,04:43Day 2,04:45YASVANTPUR JNDay 2,05:15Day 2,05:20
YASHVANTPUR SPLDADARNYNNNNNYELAHANKA JN.Day 3,03:15Day 3,03:20YASVANTPUR JNDay 3,04:00Destination Station
MTM YPR EXPMACHELIPATNAMNYNYNYNYELAHANKA JN.Day 2,06:45Day 2,06:47YASVANTPUR JNDay 2,07:25Destination Station
KCG YPR EXPKACHEGUDAYYYYYYYYELAHANKA JN.Day 2,09:33Day 2,09:35YASVANTPUR JNDay 2,10:30Destination Station

Bottlenecks are there till Yeshwantpur since Tumkur route shares with this, but track is double and journey is just 15 minutes with 1 block of Malleshwaram station between. So, with 1 hour frequency, we do not expect much bottleneck.

From Yeswantpur to Yelahanka, it is pretty much OK. From Yelahanka to BIAL, it is almost  like dedicated. Double track is also not needed after Yelahanka since we are talking of a frequency of 1hour with 45 minutes journey.

 

Devesh's picture

Vasanth - some confusion

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Vasanth, I am getting confused by some of the comments here on Praja.

The CRS is NOT a replacement for Metro, or HSRL, or a dedicated rail connectivity for the airport. I cannot grasp what exactly did you mean in your comment

Such a huge investment (7000 crores) to save 20 minutes. I just wanted to ask everyone what is the percentage of people in Bangalore use Airport per day to call for such a huge investment and how much percentage of population in Bangalore have travelled in a plane atleast once in their lifetime. Planners wants to be in news and hence make such 'Hi-Fi' plans and media will blow it out like anything.

For the long term airport connectivity, the CRS as proposed is out of the question. Increasing frequency on the current Chikkabalapur line is also out of the question due to congestion at Yelahanka. A rail link to the airport is a must.

For that link we need to look at the TOTAL time a passenger has to transit. We are taking the 50 minutes from SBC to DHL. But we are overlook the 60 minutes it will take to get to SBC, and at least another 15 from DHL to BIA. I am very doubtful anyone will accept a total transit of 125 minutes.

As per BMRC the end to end east-west or north south transit time is max 30 minutes. Which would be the typical transit time taken by passengers to reach the BRV station of HSRL. There are other reasons as well, which I have elaborated in a separate post.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
s_yajaman's picture

Does it not make sense to

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spend the Rs.6000 crores in clearing up the traffic inside the city by extending the Metro to places that are not currently covered? 

Devesh - I think the Singapore model makes the most sense.  No dedicated airport link for an airport like Changi seems to work just fine.  You say that it will take 1 hr to reach SBC.  But with the Metro functional it should take no more than 20 mins.   I personally prefer that we put a Metro line to Yelahanka so that NH-7 gets some traffic off.  Ask Mr.Kheny to extend BMIC to NH7 so that E-City gets covered by an expressway.  Ask BIAL to give access from the Cargo side - so that ITPL folks can take SH106(??).  These steps will serve the general population as well.  if all this is done - will a DEDICATED rail link still be justified?

Will the rail link from BYP to the airport be a largely surface line (like HK) so that investments come down?  If it can average 60 kmph it will still cover the distance in 30 mins.   Please push the powers that be on keeping plans sane and not the usual grandiose ones that never come to fruition.

Srivathsa

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

NHAI Thanisandra alternative

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If Peripheral Link Road comes up and the below proposed NHAI corrirdor in Thanisandra is linked to it, there would be no need for a HSRL. Such an arrangement is not only cost saving, but also cost effective:

http://www.hindu.com/2008/02/13/stories/2008021359070400.htm 

Metro to Yelahanka

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A metro link to Yelahanka and CRS on high frequency mode to Yelahanka will reduce the traffic on NH 7 - therefore largely obviating the need to HSRL. In addition, if the proposed NHAI Thanisandra corridor is given the green light, then yes, it would further bring down traffic on Bellary Road. 
Vasanth's picture

Metro to Yelahanka is OK - Government investment to HSRL not OK

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Devesh, commuter rail can really solve the current problem. If it is Metro connecting via Yelahanka, that is also OK. But no to HSRL which does not serve purpose of a common man. I don't want Gok to use our tax paid money to a service which I use very occassionally.

Even if it is a BOOT with a private party building it, we loose so much of land. So many houses / buildings will be demolished. We will also loose greenery which is already minimum.

Also, starting the service from Byappanahalli only serves the eastern portion of Bangalore.  From South Bangalore, instead of travelling to Byappanahalli to catch the train, I can as well travel to BIAL itself. Majestic has been the hub from years together connected well from all the areas. It has to continue to do so.

Devesh's picture

Srivathsa, Vasant .... CRS is not the solution to BIA.

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Guys

Before we go further, the original letter from GoK and intent of the post was to inform and request a simpler yes or no on the timings. That intent has been left unanswered at Praja.

A few of clarifications to filter the numerous ideas floating around Yelahanka.


1. Yelahanka station is choked. So please do not look at ANY solution that relies on Yelahanka station. Indian Railways is willing to give track BEYOND Yelahanka so the start station will be BettaHalasuru. In which case you might as well drive to BIA.

2. Forget CRS as a high frequency solution. CRS is meant for high volume, not high frequency (converse to Metro). A tpyical CRS will carry in excess of 1000 people.  Railways can at best provide a high volume solution for peak hour. This is ideally suited for shift based industries which will have a massive movement at a fixed time. i.e. industrial estates including the IT dominated ones.

The CRS is not going to be a long term BIA solution. The current plan is to get the CRS concept through the door, and pry open SWR. Once done, the actual action plan is to connect industrial areas like Bidadi, EC, Malur, Tumkur, etc.

3. Standard rail services have a much larger block size (larger trains) when compared to metro rail services, and world over railways use a block system (one train on one block of track). Which is also a reason why Mumbai cannot increase the frequency of trains.

4. Security. We cannot always assume as the crow flies and put all our eggs in one basket. One strike and the airport gets completely cut off.

5. There is a BMRC long term plan to put in a central line (call it EC-YEL line) that will come up NH7 from Bommasandra/EC side, through Vellara junction, through Kamaraj Road to Hennur Road junction (incidentally which is where my airport track proposal cuts right from ORR to Hennur Road) and then on to Yelahanka via Nagavara and Sanjivini Nagar. I have discussed this earlier. Trust me on the route I have seen the proposals. But this plan is at least 5, more likely 10 years away. It is a very expensive line, as much of this line will have to be underground. There is simply no place to put elevated track.

I suggest and request we continue the discussions about a BIA link, back on the original airport link thread. I have continued my post here. Please click, follow it, and post your answers there.

On this thread let us post a simple yes no to the original query. Will you or, more importantly, your company, use the CRS to BIA as it is proposed now ?

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
idontspam's picture

No

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Will you or, more importantly, your company, use the CRS to BIA as it is proposed now ? NO
pbanavara's picture

Why electrification ?

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Can't the railways use a diesel-electric locomotive? I don't know the cost advantages but seems logical and environment friendly (You don't have to burn coal for the required power).
s_yajaman's picture

Timings don't meet my needs

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Devesh,

Sorry - your intent was not clear on the post.  There was nothing in there that asked for a Yes/No :).

No.  The current timings don't meet my needs.  My usual flight out is the 7:00 a.m. flight and I return usually at 9:45 p.m.  Given that I leave home at 5:00 a.m. it takes me 50 mins to an hour for the 50 km journey from home by taxi.  I have no problem with that sort of journey time. 

On CRS not being able to provide a high frequency solution - why do we need a high frequency solution to our airport?  Look at the flight pattern - there are only 2 hours in a day when departing passengers exceed 1000/hr.  

The other thing you need to check is the viability of an airport link from Byappanahalli.  Will people really take the trouble to go to BYP and then change?  Just have a pilot with the Vayu Vajra - with all buses starting from Hebbal (with 40 buses you can get a 5 min frequency) and see if people will stop their taxis and take the bus.  Taxis will have to cover about 30 km from hebbal - Rs.300-450 more.  BIAS will cost probably Rs.100.  If this does not work - then highly unlikely the rail link will work.

Regards,

Srivathsa

 

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

Devesh's picture

The CRS is aimed at workers not passengers

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As the original post indicates, the CRS as designed right now is aimed at the folks working at the airport who work shifts. Goes back to the concept of mass movement at fixed times. As of now there are about 10,000 workers at the airport. So hopefully this will be able to help about 10% - 20% of them.

Sorry about the lack of clarity in the post. I had requested SB, and my error that I did not clarify adequately to him.

IDS, I have no involvement at the airport other than as a passenger, and my company, as an importer or exporter. Added to that, since we are Koramangala based, the CRS will not suit our needs.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD

CRS for DBP

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Devesh is right. A CRS to BIAL from SBC, especially during the peak hours will serve the need of BIAL employees very well. If we consider this plan in a long term perspective, people  can interchange into the Metro at Majestic from SBC towards south Bangalore and other destinations. The upcoming DBP (Devanahalli Business Park) will receive a fillip because of CRS. 
idontspam's picture

Why not?

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On CRS not being aimed at passengers, I would ask why not? Why build super expensive HSRL or metro central line to the airport spending crores when CRS can serve the same needs? Metro serves both City and Byappanahalli, from there CRS can be utilized to get to the interchange. Only investment is to build a people mover like a monorail or a tram from the interchange to the terminal building.

Of course higher frequency will mean smaller blocks this will mean investment in signalling systems. Far cheaper than extending the metro. Like I said if SWR doesnt want to do it all they need to do is loan the tracks for a fee. A CRS authority can take care of setting up a rolling stock, signalling systems and operate it or use PPP model.

The way metro is going we may not see a line to airport in our lifetime especially if it has to go underground for long stretches. Also Metro should concentrate on being a backbone for the city. Considering best case of 6 million passengers per day those passengers rather be moved inside the city for better efficiency. CRS or HSRL on BOT is a better option than metro.

Incidentally Zurich airport doesnt have a dedicated line. Intercity SBB line to St Gallen and other places will stop for 5 mins at the flughafen station. The only other connectivity is tram line 10 from HB (central station) theu the city. It serves the purpose very well. How many dedicated airport expresses in the world make any money? Taxpayers will end up paying for an airport line when that money can be used to build proper facilities inside the city.
sandeepckeerthi's picture

Yes

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Devesh,
Yes.
 
But, we really should use this as a stepping stone to increase the volumes and convert the CRS into a suburban service. In fact the whole of the railway infrastructure within Bengaluru should be used for a suburbun service. I think this point has been streesed upon by many prajaes earlier too. Hence, creation of the TTMCs at BYP, Devanahalli, Bidadi, etc are steps in the correct direction.

Great work by you and SB with all the BCIC meetings!
blrpraj's picture

my view

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In my view any rail solution..(be it CRS as currently proposed or anything else)..that takes 80 mins from city center to the trumpet interchange plus the additional time and hassle involved in tranferring to a shuttle to the terminal and other areas of the airfield is not an attractive proposition to most users. I am basing the 80mins time from what I saw on this article - http://www.hindu.com/2009... The article says that the running time will eventually reduce but that remains to be seen given the fact that average speeds (including those of even prestigious trains) on the railway system overall have in fact decreased. When we talk about optimization and reducing running times we are opening up a can of worms given the inherent inefficiencies and systemic problems in the railways. How will all those problems be solved in order to optimize and reduce the running time of the BIA train given the fact that there will be higher priority trains..at least on a certain section of the track if not all the way till BIA's trumpet interchange? Sorry to be raising more questions than having solutions, but I see more hope in the Metro than sittingd own and taking on Indian Railways to solve their problems.
idontspam's picture

SWR and metro

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What we have are readily available tracks with SWR connecting BIA with thickly populated areas, industrial areas, city and metro stations. We can either have SWR run bullock carts on it or have a high speed modern commuter rail system. If you can justify a metro which is a train on a track i dont see why we cant run the same on SWR tracks.

If you look at the train today you will find them slow, no luggage space, inconvinient etc. It is a matter of running a train which has all those features. Similarly everything else (traffic, additional tracks, signalling, frequency, speed, technology) can be worked out appropriately by the experts. If it is not feasible at all let an independent committee of experts say so by providing hard number on investment needed for each option including quantifying any consequential benefit of an option; but not considering this option can be really short sighted and foolish.

We need to make up our mind on what is time, money, effort saved and what is not. I actually dont mind any option including Metro and HSRL if a proper cost benefit analysis is done and a decision taken. Right now every thing is done by lobbying and vested interest and a dozen bullet points of english text as justfication

Timings should co-incide with peak hour

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The timings of the initial train might not be right. We need to have trains that stop at the trumpet interchange atleast an hour and a half prior to peak hour departures and atleast half an hour or 45 minutes after peak hour landings in the evenings.

I appreciate the fare (at Rs. 8). If frequencies are increased, this will give a huge fillip to travellers, who currently pay a minimum of Rs. 100 for BMTC buses. 

This is a step in the right direction

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CRS is a step in the right direction. I hail the efforts of BCIC in getting this to happen. This will go a long way in solving the transportation problems of Greater Bangalore. 
bialterminal's picture

re: SWR and metro

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idontspam,
Using the existing SWR rail line, with the proper upgrades and an extension branching (from the SWR line) into the airport itself it is possible to run high speed service directly to the airport terminal from the city. The reasons it is not possible is because 1) this is India 2) we are dealing with a beraucratic Indian Railways 3) most importantly there is no unified sense of purpose, planning and direction from a highly empowered infrastructure task force.

The same kind of arrangement that I have mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph has been accomplished and proven to be successful outside India. We can in fact kill 2 birds with 1 stone - A) railway tracks,signalling system,technology & other infrastructure (at least partially till Devanahalli for starters) will get upgraded to higher speeds and efficiency B) the airport gets a rail link at good speeds. I am no railway expert but any well informed and well travelled person can say that this is THE BEST possible cost effective solution. Unfortunately I have to confidently (and pessimistically) say that this will not happen for quite some time. I am in fact quite amazed that the airport got built in the 1st place. But, I am quite optimistic that some day a 2nd runway and the rail link will materialize (slowly & agonizingly)
Devesh's picture

IDS .... European Rail systems

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IDS, no point comparing any country Europe to any other country when it comes to rail integration. They are unmatched. More so the central European countries, where rail not even road is the preferred choice. Haupt Bahnhoff of Europe are probably just as palatial if not better than their airports, like Berlin.

Quoting Zurich, in my opinion, is an extreme poor example, since the Swiss hardly use cars or planes for intra-country connectivity, preferring the SBB instead. Hence a stop at Kloten direct to the east west line. Better examples would be the US, Asia, and even if you observe other European countries, example Frankfurt, it is an airport S-Bahn line that connects to the Haupt Bahnhoff for onward connection on to the DB.

Further, the choke point is Yelahanka, and there is precious little we can do about it. CRS is also ideally suited to large volume but low frequency movement i.e. employees with fairly regular work hours. Not passengers. Passengers who find the CRS convenient, go for it.

It is also important to appreciate the simple fact that IR is one huge monolithic mass, and HQed in Delhi. Hubli and Hyderabad rank much further up on their list of South priorities, Chennai being even higher. We need local solutions to what is clearly a local problem. Just to get one girder of the Mathikere ROB approved (not constructed), god only knows how many strings had to be pulled, how many trips the BDA engineers had to make to Hubli. The Whitefield ROB is testament to this uber-slow and lethargic beast, even despite constant pushing by RK Mishra. (Please let's not go in to this tangent). So upgradation of the line is a 10 year project.

Just for your information, the government is toying with the idea of shifting the railway station, and bus stand next to BIA. Sort of a mega transport hub. But it is right now just an idea.

Metro or Mono would be the way to go. A total time of 80~90 minutes from the furthest point should be acceptable to most commuters.

-----------------------

Regards

Devesh R. Agarwal

Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com

 

-----------------------
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
idontspam's picture

Wrong benchmarks and good ideas

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Devesh says: No point comparing any country Europe to any other country when it comes to rail integration

I say: This IS the whole point. We are benchmarking wrongly. We are going the US way knowing fully well they also have to change course very shortly. Fine we cant exactly replicate Europe but atleast follow the broad pattern. There is a "loan the rails" option like the swiss that can be considered when working with SWR. We are closing options without a proper due diligence.

Devesh says: Just for your information, the government is toying with the idea of shifting the railway station, and bus stand next to BIA. Sort of a mega transport hub. But it is right now just an idea

I say: This is the best FYI i have come across in a long time. So what gives? If this remains on the thinking board for the next 10 years it will be too late. By getting an evaluation done today we may be able to get the feasibility of CRS evaluated before spending on HSRL.

This whole airport affliction needs to stop now. We can use the NH7 for a long time now. We need to focus back on our transport backbone for the city. We need to start thinking of areas that will not be covered by the metro and put up plans for those. We need some surface tram/BRTS lines on Sankey/Bellary road from MG road metro to Hebbal, on IRR from Byappanahalli metro to Madivala, on ring road from Byappanahalli metro to Peenya, on chord road from YPR metro to mysore road metro. These are major lines that can be covered on surface level connecting places not covered by metro to metro stations thus completing the grid. Rest of inside ares can be connected to the tram/BRTS or metro stations by BMTC. Shorter distances only upto metro/tram stations means better frequency and reach for BMTC. CRS still needs to be pursued regardless of wether it gets extended to the airport of not. If it works for the city it will automatically get extended to our flughafen and our new hauptbanhoff at BIA

bialterminal's picture

re :Wrong benchmarks and good ideas

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IDS & Devesh
IDS, I cannot say how much I agree with you on fixing the infrastructure backbone of Bangalore. The infrastructure needs to be thought of as a whole with individual puzzle pieces fitting together. Please take a look at my post http://bangalore.praja.in....
But I see what Devesh is getting at. I guess his viewpoint it that with Indian Railways any feasible solution is nearly impossible. I quite agree with him (sorry to sound pessimistic). They have their huge mess to fix and they are pretty much behind compared to most countries in rail technology, safety etc.
Devesh, what i don't agree though is what you said about no point comparing. Alas, how I wish we as a nation could just compare and have the zeal to achieve that? We have money(in the form of investments), we have talent, we have inexpensive labour, we have uemployed people needing jobs; what we don't have is collective will & unified direction. When we have vote bank driven management of Indian Railways and other infrastructure by politicians, proposals such as utilizing the existing SWR railway line for BIA is defeated even before it is conceived.
I think everybody knows that a similar concept has been adopted in achieving a HSRail connection to Heathrow by sharing railway lines with GreatWestern rail line - http://www.airport-techno...
s_yajaman's picture

IDS - well put

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IDS,

You've hit the nail on the head and all other parts.  Airport is the tail wagging the dog.  Yes airport employees need to get to work in an efficient and cheap way, but all employees have the same need.   The city needs to be de-congested.  If that is done, the airport noise goes down (I have already seen the noise go down from our friends on Hosur Road) as 50-75% of travel time to the airport happens till you reach Hebbal.

Also agree with Devesh on IR.  They just have no interest in running commuter rail services.   I know a friend who used to be in IR and he gave me a few reasons for it (I can ask him again).

Srivathsa

Drive safe.  It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.

asj's picture

IDS - spot on

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IDS you are spot on.

I do not share the pessimistic outlook. Yes, its a difficult task, but not an impossible task to get the Railways to do things differently. IMO, the railways is a highly organised public service with a massive network. Its just that given the economics of the first 40 years of independent India were such that the priorities were different.

What needs to happen is for Municipal Corporations to say to Indian Railways that - here is the money, can you develop the exsisting infrastructure and put it to optimal use (instead of spending tons more on elevated metro rail systems built on main highways and in doing so duplicating rather than adding to mass transit corridors).

I also feel we need to revisit our ideas about speed of travel. Mumbai CRS can do 100kph if it wanted to. The average speeds are reduced to 30kph (same with London tube) because multitude of factors from number, type of rolling stocks, signal technology to headways and number of stops/stations..........A lot of people have wrongly concluded that Metro rail or BRTS is speedier than conventional / traditional bus transport - Let me elaborate this. Everything I say below is based on findings of Transport for London's work on bus stop locations -

Less bus stops means buses may move faster overall, but at a huge price -
 
If one stride per second covers a meter or so (as per IRC norms), to cover 1/2 km we need 500 seconds = 8 minutes or 12.5 for 750 meters or a massive 16 minutes for bus stop 1km away. 
 
Now apply this to the idea of BRTS / Metro - where buses/trains run fast, but if it takes me far more time just getting to a BRT / train station from my home and equally more time walking to my office after getting off on a BRT / train station - the lightning fast BRT / train is rather useless in many ways. In other words stops close to each other are better than fewer and distant bus stops.

Here is an example -

I use tube to go from Hounslow to Hammersmith = 6-8 miles - 15 minute walk to station from home, 5 - 7 min wait for train, 30 minute journey, 5 minute walk to work = 55 + minutes. If I take the bus - the bus stop is 2 minutes away either side of journey, the bu stops at 15-18 stops (as against the train which has only 6 stops) but time taken on bus ususally door to door is 60 minutes (but much cheaper and I always get to sit unlike the tube).

In short, speed is a useless parameter if most commuters commute not more than dozen odd kilometers. Pune (most Indian cities are similar) has an average of 8, with growth it may become 12-15 but this is still not long enough for speed to have huge impact on reduction of overall time of travel.

The key thus is not to look at posh or more expensive solutions to our problems, but the smart and cost-effective ones. The question worth asking every time is - Are the benefits worth the expense?

ASJ

PS: anyone who thinks we could have BRT and Metro stations 500 m from home is living in la la land. Its worthless - all one needs to do is look at the London tube map - yes, you have a station stones throw away in central London - but even the Transport for London says you are better off on foot than train on some journeys because the closest station to where one is need not be on the line on which your destination station is, which means interchanges, which means adding anywhere from 10 to 20 or more minutes to overall travel time.
 
silkboard's picture

Sorry, was missing on this thread

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Work has been keeping me tight.

But, I may have hit upon some contacts in South Western Railway. working on the leads to hear some 'frank' talk from the railway side.

Devesh,

The present rail timings are not going to cut it for passengers. You would know the flight timings at BIAL better than all of us here. And you know the peak times in the city one one hates to be on the roads. The train's USP would be the reliable travel time to airport, 70 mins or 90 mind, but it'd be + or - 5-10 mins of that in predictable fashion.

Next problem, a bigger one is local connectivity. Passengers would expect the best in terms of getting off the train and walking up with luggage to a clean bus with room for holding the suitcases. The platform will have to have the carts, and ramps for carrying the wheel based carts of suitcases. This "ease of changing modes" part has to be addressed.

Now, even if you fix the issue at the new BIAL station, the interchange issues will remain at the origin station - City and Cantt. What platform would this train leave the City station from? Will I have to lug my stuff myself - station doesn't have ramps or lifts. How much time will getting to Majestic take? Add some buffer for me to get from J P Nagar to Majestic, and it might be that the time saved in taking the train is all lost in these two interchanges.

So, DEvesh, you are unlikely to hear a "yes" for your point questions. Regular travelers could use (minimal luggage, solo travelers) the train, provided it makes the beat the morning rush hour in the city.

In short, without a clear roadmap for improvements on 1) timings 2) interchanges at origin and destination stations, the train will leak money and both SWR and the state government may lose interest.

How do we start the conversation on a CRS "Road map"? Despite the questions raised real utility of CRS to BIAl as proposed right now, we need to get it started to 1) get a foot in the door and 2) to start talking a road map 3) start learning the problems via a live CRS 'trail'

Srivathsa, mcad, Casanth, IDS, BT, hope you all agree with me here.

 

blrsri's picture

8Rs from SBC to Devanahalli?!

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Incredible..if sources need to be believed it was reported that railways is going to charge just 8Rs for the trip... This was reported in DNA.. http://www.dnaindia.com/r...
silkboard's picture

Looks like the commuter train is here

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An year after the proposal was first heard of, we have some announcement on this. The train to Devanahalli has been announced by SWR, this is as per reports in newspapers today (Jan 3 2010) .

ss87's picture

There was another news in the

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There was another news in the Hindu today. It was regarding the extention of the metro link to Devanahlli all the way to Chikballapur the nearest town to the airport..

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