How much will you pay for parking your motorized private vehicle in Bengaluru?
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We are in India.
50% in Stockholm. This is Bangalore.
Yes, any charge can be mandatory and will be paid- but for someone else's TV/booze.
So?
50% in Stockholm. This is Bangalore.
So?
Stockholm and Bangalore?
Stockholm and Bangalore? Apples and oranges.
Why?
Stockholm and Bangalore? Apples and oranges.
Why?
To cut that one-liner battle short ...
... any implementation of parking/congestion charges should have reduction in number of entries made into CBD, and pollution levels in CBD as targets, with some clear number goals, from X to Y
Do we know the numbers today? No, and that perhaps is the first difference with Stockholm :)
The Key difference
When designing and implementing a system, we need to know our variables (those are very different than those of Stockholm's).
a. The quantifiable aspect- What causes congestion in Bangalore?- Buying power (more cars), spontaneous growth (unplanned, unmanaged), Traffic data for different corridors, extrapolated road widths which will work for the future, development plans that give indication of number of parking needed at various locales etc.
b. The intangible aspect- what drives people to choose cars over PT? Both Direct and indirect causes. This is more like a marketing exercise- to understand Indian psyche. This is more important because this is what will be goal, the objective- to make people choose PT over cars.
c. Implementation strategy- a SWOT on this for starters. This will play a key role in the realization of the design. Will be key to achieving desired results.
These are just broad categories that involve extensive work, especially the 'c' part. All these are different in Bangalore than Stockholm! Just congestion charges and parking charges are not going to cut it.
Not sure why there's so much doubt
Only the (c) needs attention. We know why congestion occurs: a very strong preference for private vehicles by most people. Even with excellent public transport, most cities abroad on the west & east alike are still dealing with severe congestion problems.
Just congestion charges and parking charges are not going to cut it --- As I mentioned previously, it has worked wherever it has been tried, & there's no reason why it cannot work here, if (c) is done well.
All these are different in
All these are different in Bangalore than Stockholm! Just congestion charges and parking charges are not going to cut it.
In fact if cordon pricing in an affluent city like Stockholm can reduce traffic by 50% I am sure it will work better in Bangalore. Paid parking in stages is phase 1, Cordon pricing within ORR in stages will be phase 2. THe report will detail an comprehensive implementation plan. For paid parking there is already a BBMP approved report which only needs implementation
Implementation strategy will
Implementation strategy will mould the design itself and morph it to be very different that that could have worked in any other country. People psyche is an issue that stares at faces of people who try to implement any policy- be it Indian or adaptation- be it selling soaps or medicine- be it movies or restaurants- be it retail strategies or marketing. We are talking about selling a concept to the people! Why people will buy that concept in India is very different from why people will buy it anywhere else. East and West will have to deal with their congestion issues in their own ways.
Educating on-board staff on duties and responsibilities (at the same time building penalties for not performing the duties and responsibilties), building solidarity into the system (governed by laws and not leaving it to good-will), ensuring public safety, putting a cap on beggary and extortion (i have seen many cops just staring at beggars even if everyone knows begging is a crime in India), making sure the money collected goes into public infrastructure development, making sure inflated bills for parking systems are not submitted by individuals in the authorities (like Rs.15000 for every line drawn with paint on the road to mark parking lots), ensuring sub-standard work not happening due to sub-standard technical staff - all are important. Core issues are inside. We can choose to treat the cause or the symptom.
Implementation in India will have hope only when the implementation actually happens and not when it looks like is happening. Corruption is the key challenge for any public policy implementation- corruption from all fronts. Almost everything else is technical, can be dealt with. People are the important- why people in India will choose PT will be very different from anywhere else. Do we know why? Or we can pay up for parking and congestion which will help someone buy a big screen TV.
There is not a speck of doubt. It is very obvious that these as separate measures will not work in our context. Make the system ready for it to receive the higher goals and it just might receive it. Not before that.
Implementation in India will
Implementation in India will have hope only when the implementation actually happens
You have actually summarised it clearly. Naysayers will bring in world poverty and whale slaying into the preconditions. Authorities should steer clear of such people while going about the implementation. There is no point selling it to people who dont believe in solutions. Inaction is not a solution. Alternates will never be suggested by these people or it will be impracticable. We need to start it in phases throwing out all the ideological leanings and let people get used to it. Slowly spread it to the entire ORR region. This will supplement the BMR decongestion via commuter rail.
Good for you to look at only
Good for you to look at only part of the sentence.
Time to wind up!
Ananth, thanks for enlightening us with your pro-Car perspectives in opposing the parking charges. I am sure in the midst we all are enlighten with how the corruption has engulf the public systems. Pls do look forward to the day when the systems are freed from the shackles of corruption and anti-people policies.
I am sure you would be happy with your private vehicle option for which you wouldn't mind paying registration and vehicle taxes even though the money finds its way to MLA/MP/Babu's drawing room for big 3D TVS and other appliances.
IDS, Naveen, time to move on. Miles to go for converting naysayers.
-Syed
Yes, time to move on.
A lot of time has been wasted discussing the issue in totality. Move on guys. I will watch and learn how this works. Will post only when things become silent requesting for updates. Best of luck.
it all sounds nice and good, but ...
Ananth, stuff like
... all sound nice and good. But something needs to move for anything to change at all. Till then it is a bad but convenient equilibrium which is what we all are in. Do you think readers here don't understand or have not seen the corruption etc you mention? You are probably more frustrated because you see it in your day to day work, many of us perhaps don't. I can see where you are coming from, simply because I have met you a few times.
However, a change needs to be lobbied for to break out of this bad equilibrium, where despite tons of money being thrown at the problem, city's mobility has not changed much from 15-18 kmph for almost a decade now.
Corruption etc are a constant, present in the way money is being spent today, will be present tomorrow when money might get spent on different set of projects. Talking about corruption on public forums is needless, till a good number of us can raise our hands and claim to have passed a full month without greasing any palms, knowingly, or unknowingly, at home or at work. Or, till we can trace each and every bill for every public project, which will happen if you demand for better IT and e-governance inside.
That last line was a shameless plug for those other posts on BBMP's IT :)
A lot of time has been
A lot of time has been wasted discussing the issue in totality
Loss of time isnt the problem. Its not like cordon pricing will be a reality before metro and commuter rail becomes fully operational, paid parking is the first step. Not having an alternate solution to private transport disincentive is the problem. Status quo is not a solution. 50% of 95 lakh vehicles wont stay away on their own. It never has in any part of the world. Public Transport improvement is not an alternative, it is not a precondition, it is a necessary movement that has been on at Praja since 2007 and will go on regardless of congestion charging.
Jakarta has 14 million people
Jakarta has 14 million people & 11 million private vehicles, a situation Bangalore will be in soon. This is our future. If we can learn from their mistakes we will be wise.
The losses are immense
Someone mailed in saying I seem to be taking Ananth's side. Well I am not. Only thing is I do understand is his frustration with corruption etc which is prolly because he sees things from close quarters.
Understanding people and things apart, there is no doubt that this unhealthy equilibrium needs to be broken. You can't park anywhere at will, and then blame traffic police for not enforcing parking signs. You can't pay 5 Rs parking fee without receipt to a random person, when market rate for 80sqft space may well be around Rs 20 (Rs 60 per sqft, 25 days a month, assumed 10 parked hours).
There may be no win win solutions. One side has to give in something for the pathetic mobility stituation to change. It has been bus users and pedestrians so far (for last 10 years), and it has only worsened. It needs to be private vehicle owners now, at least to see if the other way can get things to be better (that is if no other rational reason can convince those who don't want to pay towards improving their own commute times).
Just clearing up something-
Just clearing up something- did not ask for 'bad but convenient equilibrium' by the way of inaction, just asked to look at the corruption bit involved only with this project's implementation and have checks to maintain the integrity of the system pertaining to this issue's extents. Corruption broken down into smaller relevant bits can be dealt with, nobody can deal with the bigger giant. Not asking for people to cleanse the country before you charge parking. Have been clear all through on this.(ref.:10th Oct 7:38 post).
Battle or the war
nobody can deal with the bigger giant. Not asking for people to cleanse the country before you charge parking.
Fair enough. Lets look at, in the solution, suggesting ways of utilizing the parking & congestion charges collected. For example we could suggest they be put in a seperate fund which go towards creating pedestrian & cycling facilities. But this involves accepting the fact that users paying for driving/parking in the congestion zone is a solution and then proceed to solve issues around it.
Which side of aisle?
SB,
It is me who raised the question of which side of discussion you are. Praja being open platform, everybody is free to be this side or the other side. It is absolutely fine to be neutaral also. Most people who hang around and do their bits also see corruption, mis-governance in close quarters also. It is their conscience to work for better systems and better governance that they flock to Praja to find the agreeing minds and support. To say that only few have seen corruption at close quarter is little out of line here. In any case the reality doesn't change. I would like to be on the side of who wants to be failure after trying it not before.
Since a lot has been said on this topic, I am signing off this topic with wishing IDS, Naveen and others a very best wishes for the planned efforts.
-Syed
what about the more fundamental issue?
But something needs to move for anything to change at all. However, a change needs to be lobbied for to break out of this bad equilibrium, where despite tons of money being thrown at the problem, city's mobility has not changed much from 15-18 kmph for almost a decade now.
Status quo is not a solution. Public Transport improvement is not an alternative, it is not a precondition, it is a necessary movement that has been on at Praja since 2007 and will go on regardless of congestion charging. There is no point selling it to people who dont believe in solutions. Inaction is not a solution. Alternates will never be suggested by these people or it will be impracticable. We need to start it in phases throwing out all the ideological leanings and let people get used to it.
All very convincing and forceful talk. But, I wish it would extend to this more fundamental issue also.
Some reading and understanding.
While I am reading through this thread, I found this link .(Just abstract here)
Is there some development? Or
Is there some development? Or is there some project/plan/progress to follow here?
Is there some
Is there some development?
Yes, people who have signed up to contribute are already doing their mite.
Shoupista
More
Plan for the proper pocket?
Curious to know whats coming out of here yet. Planners, is there some plan to route the collection away from private pockets as was discussed?
BBMP Pocket
Planners, is there some plan to route the collection away from private pockets as was discussed?
Nope, when paid parking comes into force the money will go to BBMP. If you have a proposal on how to tell them to route it properly do post here. We can make a representation to them along with asking to start the paid parking.
BBMP Pocket- How? so then- Why?
My objections to charges were based on the same issue and if it seemed there was a way around, we wouldn't have had discuss for so long.
".....Lets look at, in the solution, suggesting ways of utilizing the parking & congestion charges collected. For example we could suggest they be put in a seperate fund which go towards creating pedestrian & cycling facilities. ......"
Well, my understanding was there would be a way to ensure private pockets remained away from the collection and away from appropriate use pipeine. Otherwise this will be just another line of revenue for we-know-whom.
Trust deficit
Well, my understanding was there would be a way to ensure private pockets remained away from the collection
I said we should find a way. Obviously we havent found one yet. Since you dont have one here is one. Create an NMT cell within BBMP and post all parking revenues under that account. Obviously the cost of parking enforcement will also be posted under that account.
whats NMT
Pardon my ignorance- what is an NMT cell? Cant seem to find more info in google, except for some vague info about this happening in pune.
NMT
NMT=Non Motorized Transport. Yes Pune is probably the only city I know that has an NMT cell under PMC. The cell is running their bicycle sharing program. Thanks to an NGO called Parisar in Pune who pushed for bike sharing there.
How will NMT help?
So how is posting all parking revenues into an NMT cell help ensure financial integrity- how is that a solution? It is public knowledge that any money in any govenment account has attracted false claims, favoured tender offers etc. How will a different account make otherwise? Maybe it will become a little more simpler for book keeping and follow up, but is that enough? Not trying to shoot down your proposal, but talking about the actual concern at hand.
Question
So how is posting all parking revenues into an NMT cell help ensure financial integrity- how is that a solution?
The problem statement was how do you ensure it goes towards NMT and the proposition for that is in front of you. How do you audit books, there are auditors and agencies like CAG for that. Maybe others have better ideas
Parking at Garuda Mall
Yesterday I had to go to Garuda Mall for some work and I joined the "Q" of vehicles waiting to enter the multilevel paid parking at about 1600 Hours.The line moved at snails pace and after getting the parking ticket I climbed round and round the different floors and reached the 9Plus floors but no parking was available as all were already taken.I was left with no option but to comedown the floors .When I reached the exit point in the ground level I was stopped and the guard demanded that I pay the parking charge as a ticket has been issued. I refused saying why did he allow the cars inside without knowing the availability and I said that he should pay my fuel charges and for the time wasted.He pleaded that he has no way of knowing availability and I was amused. In this age of GPS and other communication gadgets in the cyber city a premium mall does not know the parking availability in real time.
One more thing which was striking in Garuda Mall multilevel parking is the dangerous layout for the cars going up and the vehicles coming down .There is no warning or reflective mirrors for the two to see each other and a accident is waiting to happen.
better to avoid the place
I had taken my car just once to Garuda mall, and after that, I have sworn never to go there driving again. In fact, I avoid the place totally, if I can. They have this policy of keeping the lower decks reserved for parking of larger cars, and the upper decks for smaller cars, and rightly too, since it would require some extra-ordinary driving skills to steer a big car through their labyrinthine parking system. But, in the process, the smaller cars invariably get pushed to the 7th or 8th floors, after parking of which, to get down to the floors where you are headed, is another nightmare, given the fact that the lift facility is extremely poor, and located in some obscure and not readily identifiable corners (In addition, is the case of one of collapsing, and causing serious injuries to quite a few visitors).
The Forum Mall (Koramangala), in comparison, is a lot better planned and managed.
Oasis Mall - No better
The Oasis in Koramangala is equally bad. The turns are almost right-angled 'elbows' with hardly any curvature. Added to that, the exit gate is at a traffic signal. I have decided not to go there or to Garuda mall by car.
How is any of this...
...related to if you will pay for parking? Recommend starting a different thread to discuss this.
Parking for 2 wheelers.
If it is a mall/multiplex or a shopping complex, then it should be Rs. 20 for every 4 hours.
If it is a TTMC bus stand with parking facility, then initially Rs. 50 should be taken, but Rs. 45 should be refunded when we buy bus/train ticket. from the same stop. The time limit here should be 24 hours.
This would not only encourage public transport, but also encourage people staying in bus-starved areas to use the same.
Also, upon showing the two-wheeler parking ticket, a bicycle should be provided in the destination TTMC free of charge to enable people to travel to bus-starved destination as well.