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How much will you pay for parking your motorized private vehicle in Bengaluru?

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idontspam's picture

Dont want to pay?

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 All those who dont want to pay for parking please leave comments on the reason so we can put it forward to the authorities. Please vote, so we can take this proposal to the elected representatives. We know Traffic Police & BBMP both want to do this. Politicians will do it only if we all come up and say we want it. 

silkboard's picture

PT vs car - add up all the costs

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Appx costs, taking high end transport options for PT vs private. Only because we are assuming that parking fee hike is aimed at car users.

PT option

  • Avg public transport cost of going to CBD from Outer Ring = Rs 30 (Vajra fare).
  • Do x 2 for return = Rs 60

Private option

  • Car, 20 Kms Petrol = 70 Rs (appx)
  • 2 hour parking = Rs 40, so total = Rs 110.

PT looks cheaper (Rs 60 vs 70). Adding for parking, the gap increases (Rs 60 vs Rs 110). Right? Now, take hidden costs for PT, two big ones. (leave the inconvenience out)

  • Auto till bus stand = Rs 25-40 depending on auto raja. x 2 for round trip! So avg Rs 60
  • Time "wastage" (due to auto/bus wait/slow bus) for using PT (bus) = 40 minutes (20 minutes each way). Put a number to your time? Rs 60 @ Rs 100/hr. Rs 120 @ 200/hr, and so on :)

Now, you see how PT "costs" more than private transport !! So, net net:

  • Depending on the value of your time, even if PT becomes 3 times as cheap, it would still not make the cut.
  • How much you charge for parking at CBD, and entering CBD, decides what "segment" of commuters you will be "pushing" or "attracting" to PT.

Summary?

  • Keep PT as sad as it is today, and auto rajas moody and grumpy ==> parking charges in CBD would be a good business.
  • Improve PT, fix auto rajas or last mile ==> parking charges in CBD would be welfare, good for PT.

So let us ask our city planners, do they see parking as business, or welfare? Love money, or love PT?

Naveen's picture

Driving stress overlooked

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SB,

Differences in commuting costs though relevant, might not matter too much to many people. Whilst your summation is somewhat revealing, I think most users of high-end PT (presently, only air-conditioned buses, & later Metro/Mono) use them primarily because they wish to avoid the stress of driving to work & back in the present chaotic traffic conditions - the thought of driving to & fro over long distances in peak hour traffic is not appealing to most.

In this context, additional parking costs will be a dampener & urge more people to switch to PT. If parking is provided for using PT through TTMCs & at peripheral Metro stations, it will do away with the last mile "auto" component & might see a lot more using PT. If such parking is subsidized when PT is used, it has a great chance of getting traffic volumes down. Thus, parking costs can play a hand in keeping a lid on traffic volumes.

idontspam's picture

Thus, parking costs can play

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Thus, parking costs can play a hand in keeping a lid on traffic volumes

I am nodding vigorously as I read this. It is proven the world over. The only reason people dont drive downtown is the astronomical parking fees for vehicles. Nothing else will get them to switch to PT. Of course in India we have 'drivers' who will add a couple of extra trips to the congestion to save on parking fees. So one needs to charge for the trip as well.

silkboard's picture

Don't compare with developed world

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I would guess that the common examples of high parking fee discouraging taking cars to CBD are from developed countries.

In our city, where commuting by car is still an upper middle class thing than in London or Paris (everyone has a car), many are going to be able to afford to pay the parking fees.

Remember that day care late-fee example from Freakonomics? Those who haven't read the book - this day care had the problem of parents showing up late to pick up kids. So the day care owner introduced a fee thinking the fee will help curb the late-coming incidents. Instead, the fee lead to an increase in late pickups.

In kind of a similar way - you need to be clear about parking fee, because, there is this "demand" for parking. If the idea is to make money, then build supply, charge Rs 40 / hour, be ready to keep up with the demand as more and more will take cars to the city (and pester BBMP/Traffic police for building more parking lots).

The idea should be to annoy and cause inconvenience. Which you could do in ways like these:

  • Don't add any more parking lots, don't promise either. Just start charging for parking on whatever space is available today.
  • Introduce a congestion fee as well, (CBD entry tax to fund HOHO like service in the CBD, how is that!?)
idontspam's picture

Third world examples

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I would guess that the common examples of high parking fee discouraging taking cars to CBD are from developed countries

And the reason is they have moved on from roti, kapda, makaan issues. Abraham Maslow is the culprit. I can try to find examples from sub saharan Africa but I wouldnt find one as they have basic needs to be met first. Bangalore as a city has evolved into a first world economy but living in third world contitions. Infrastructure hasnt caught up as much as the economy & people have. We cant retain third world vehicles like autos, we cant continue to drive like a third world country without rules, we cant do third world engineering or transportation. Let this not be misconstrued for non-inclusiveness where necessary.

We cant wear kids clothes any longer when we are a grown up, they just wont fit and will look ugly.

silkboard's picture

okay, let me correct that

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Replace parking charge with various types of fees designed to "discourage" car use than charge the right fee. CBD congestion charge, or artificially high parking charge (designed to discourage) would be those things.

IDS, I am sure you realise that what you have mentioned here:

Bangalore as a city has evolved into a first world economy but living in third world conditions.

is what is unique about our problems. Don't look at the averages to get fooled into thinking that our city has a first world economy. Anyone who commutes by car (owning a car, and commuting by car are two different things) can afford to simply pay for parking, and demand for even more parking space in the city. You need to charge really high rates to use parking fee as "discouragement".

So what am I saying then? Think different. Goal should be to provide no parking. Give heavy incentive to buildings in the CBD that provide space for bus stands, or run shuttles till nearest Metro station, as opposed to providing free parking for tenant's employees. Provide such limited parking space that doing three rounds of a parking lot hunt for an empty slot would work as discouragement. Don't think of parking as a business, and let people charge hourly rental for 8ft x10 ft by the hour. Doing such things would actually encourage use of cars.

The lesson is - inconvenience is a far more effective disincentive than fees and fines, unless you have a fine/fee structure where you charge by the weight of the citizen's wallet.

Naveen's picture

Inconveniences okay in CBDs, but last mile ?

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inconvenience is a far more effective disincentive than fees and fines

Creating inconveniences has only resulted in haphazard parking in no-parking zones on many street sides since enforcement has gone way beyond our traffic cops' capacities !

People will still be reluctant to use PTs, even if there are better PT options - higher costs are the only way to restrain traffic. If parking is made available at TTMCs & at peripheral stations at subsidised rates rather than restricting such parking availability, I think it can help greatly since last mile options get taken care of. This will also help reduce dependence on autos & further lessen road traffic. In CBDs, parking availability can be restricted to further assist the effort, but some parking must always be provided (at very high costs).

anirudhmb's picture

implementation

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i wish the following be addressed:-

1. why should bbmp be denied of revenue? why should parking management be awarded third party contractors through rigged auctions? parking revenue is definitely worth a whole lot more than what BBMP gets through payments from contractors. why not directly employ persons directly? there are thousands people who are in dire need of minimum wages more than contractors acting as fronts for politicians bidding for parking tenders.

2. the terms of parking as contained on tickets used to read, BBMP is not responsible for theft/loss/damage to vehicle. when i pay a fee, i expect 360 degree service. BBMP ought take insurance to cover such claims when a vehicle is parked in their designated parking lot.

3. dishonest attendents manning the lots. even today, at  the Complex in Jayanagar 4th Block, the attendents carrying portable ticket printing machines, do not issue a receipt in the first place. all motorists are in a hurry to leave, so they pay without collecting any receipt. the revenue is there by under reported. morever only when inisisted upon, a receipt, the time that is punched in is false.

4. how about having equitable gender distribution in attendents employed and addressing their needs like social security, work wear, means to protect themselves from weather with a raincoat or umbrella , pollution masks and a torchlight it times of power failure? if shopping malls can do it, so can BBMP. when petrol bunks are allotted in whatever quotas to families in need. when low cost housing projects are implemented, why not parking contracts be allotted on similar basis?

5. traffic police do not actively work in sync with BBMP. we citizens, have on innumerable times violate the law by parking in restricted areas. the parking zones have been demarcated without addressing the concerns of the stakeholders at the grass root level.

6. why is this poll limited to cars ( i hope SUVs are included) ? what about bicycles, motorcycles, Heavy Commercial Vehicles? we need a policy on parking in Urban Areas. Provide free bicycle parking at all places - commercial,government,educational establishment as policy to encourage alternative means of transport postively impacting the environment. also subsidized parking for electric/hybrid vehicles

7. what about an one-time fee imposed on every vehicle registered in the city of Bangalore? if parking fee is indeed charged, then RTO ought to do away with the Road Tax.

i will defintely pay parking fee no matter how much it is fixed, knowing that it is not serving a businessman's need but is actually sustaining a family directly. (see point 4). i am pretty positve the car owning citizens will be sold to the idea of the difference they make when their parking fee goes directly to the one's in need. we need civic governence with a social conscience.

this may sound as whining about all the problems, but no action being taken. my intention is clear that i use this post, only as a sounding board. i hope, in sharing these views, may enable somebody,somewhere to make a postive impact ~the butterfly effect...............

idontspam's picture

Goal should be to provide no

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Goal should be to provide no parking

I wonder why no city in the world does that? Including the ones that already have implemented cordon pricing and been able to reduce congestion, like London, Singapore & Stockholm.

idontspam's picture

attempted some answers there

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attempted some answers

there are thousands people who are in dire need of minimum wages 

Govt should stop becoming a job agency and focus on governance. For parking there will be pricing and other regulatory issues and they can stick to that. If parking system needs 100 people it will get 100 people regardless of who hires these 100 people.

when i pay a fee, i expect 360 degree service

The money being paid is a fee for the city providing you a parking space in a common good not an insurance service. Further theft, whether the car is stationary or in motion, whether in BBMP lot or in your house, is a law enforcement issue. I can also expect because I am paying money that BBMP clean my car while parked by engaging services of a cleaning company.

dishonest attendents manning the lots

You should read this thread and respond to some suggestions made there

why is this poll limited to cars ( i hope SUVs are included) ? what about bicycles, motorcycles, Heavy Commercial Vehicles?

My bad. Cars have become a synonym for private vehicles unfortunately, but you are right, I have modified the title to read motorized private vehicle instead. Yes parking for bicycles apart from being free needs to be facilitated with racks in most places.

if parking fee is indeed charged, then RTO ought to do away with the Road Tax.

Road tax has other purposes like infrastructure development and chances are you have already paid for life when you got your vehicle.Parking fee is not a tax, its a toll like a highway access charges. But the suggestion can be explored.

Naveen's picture

My two cents

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Hi Anirudhmb - you have raised many pertinent questions.....

1. why should bbmp be denied of revenue? why should parking management be awarded third party contractors through rigged auctions? parking revenue is definitely worth a whole lot more than what BBMP gets through payments from contractors. why not directly employ persons directly? there are thousands people who are in dire need of minimum wages more than contractors acting as fronts for politicians bidding for parking tenders.

The challenge for govt has been to find ways to get things to work as best possible with regard to enforcing collection of charges for parking. Left to BBMP appointed parking attendants, the scale of inefficiency & corruption is bound to be on the high side & a possible solution was to auction off roads & areas to interested parties for certain periods. This worked well initially, but has become difficult now with powerful vested interests undermining efforts. I doubt if collection will improve if this were handed over to unemployed youths since they will find ways to siphon off money & return much lesser than what auctions can bring in (provided of course that smooth ways can be found to restore the auctioning process).

2. the terms of parking as contained on tickets used to read, BBMP is not responsible for theft/loss/damage to vehicle. when i pay a fee, i expect 360 degree service. BBMP ought take insurance to cover such claims when a vehicle is parked in their designated parking lot.

Generally, parking fee is only for using the space & not for security - most parking tickets make this clear almost all over the world. Vehicle insurance (taken by vehicle owner) should take care of losses by theft, etc.

3. dishonest attendents manning the lots. even today, at  the Complex in Jayanagar 4th Block, the attendents carrying portable ticket printing machines, do not issue a receipt in the first place. all motorists are in a hurry to leave, so they pay without collecting any receipt. the revenue is there by under reported. morever only when inisisted upon, a receipt, the time that is punched in is false.

I think we users are also responsible for this. If we insist on tickets & ensure time /charges are correct, things will work out fine, but most do not & try to avoid or minimize payment - this is why there is so much corruption at every level, but generally, we blame "authorities" for all ills.

4. how about having equitable gender distribution in attendents employed and addressing their needs like social security, work wear, means to protect themselves from weather with a raincoat or umbrella , pollution masks and a torchlight it times of power failure? if shopping malls can do it, so can BBMP. when petrol bunks are allotted in whatever quotas to families in need. when low cost housing projects are implemented, why not parking contracts be allotted on similar basis?

This is a great suggestion - wonder how we can make this work !

5. traffic police do not actively work in sync with BBMP. we citizens, have on innumerable times violate the law by parking in restricted areas. the parking zones have been demarcated without addressing the concerns of the stakeholders at the grass root level.

Currently, with insufficient public transport & the extensive use of private vehicles, co-ordination & enforcement have gone haywire. The only way this can be tackled is by finding ways to reduce the preference of individuals to use private vehicles.

6. why is this poll limited to cars ( i hope SUVs are included) ? what about bicycles, motorcycles, Heavy Commercial Vehicles? we need a policy on parking in Urban Areas. Provide free bicycle parking at all places - commercial,government,educational establishment as policy to encourage alternative means of transport postively impacting the environment. also subsidized parking for electric/hybrid vehicles

Great! I wish people use bicycles more extensively, but traffic conditions make bicycle use unsafe, as of now. Parking must be charged for all types of vehicles based on the space they occupy whilst subsidizing environment-friendly vehicles.

7. what about an one-time fee imposed on every vehicle registered in the city of Bangalore? if parking fee is indeed charged, then RTO ought to do away with the Road Tax.

Road tax is for road maintenance /development & does not include parking fees. One time charges do not work - vehicle users must be charged repeatedly for parking on each occasion. Annual road tax works better as it is recurring & hurts pockets year after year, thus discouraging vehicle ownership.

i will defintely pay parking fee no matter how much it is fixed, knowing that it is not serving a businessman's need but is actually sustaining a family directly. (see point 4). i am pretty positve the car owning citizens will be sold to the idea of the difference they make when their parking fee goes directly to the one's in need. we need civic governence with a social conscience.

Unfortunately, in practice, things do not work so well. Most people do not care about social responsibilities & imagine that they have a right to park anywhere once road taxes have been paid. Some even complain about the lack of availability of parking space for the taxes they have paid. Efforts are needed to instill these values into the conscience of individuals.

Vasanth's picture

Parking in Residential Areas in front of house

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 We discussed parking in CBDs and shopping areas, nowadays parking in front of home has become a nuisance. Both the side of the roads cars will be parked with little modification of stones on drains. If another  a big car/SUV comes or any truck comes for any construction work, it will become very difficult to move. Shouldn't they also be charged for parking on the roads? Charging them will even reduce the ownership of cars. 

There was a discussion going on this recently.

Also, shouldn't all the cars be parked on one side of the road? 

 

rs's picture

Parking on one side

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In some places they have signs saying (1,3,5,7...) on one side of the road and (2,4,6,8....) on the other. Of course this has very little effect - I think the traffic police have an over exaggerated idea of the Mathematical abilities of Bangalore drivers. In any case they dont enfore anything so any rule has no meaning.

I suppose they should introduce the notion of permit parking - only allow residents of the neighborhood to park freely in that neighborhood. But all this involves enforcement. I think just simply enforcing the current rules will greatly improve the parking and driving situation all over Bangalore - there is no need to introduce new ones at the moment.

Also, some thought should be given to where they place no parking signs. For example - on 15th Cross Malleswaram, near 11th Main parking is not allowed on one side ( technically - again, never enforced ). There is no reason to do that as there is ample space and not much traffic. On the other hand, at the other end of the same road - at Margosa and 15th Cross there is always a lot of traffic. However, between Margosa and 4th Main is the only stretch of 15th Cross where they permit parking ! Of course this adds to the mess at that junction. Added to this a new Girias has opened up.

I agree with Vasant that on most streets parking should be on only one side - though the sides will have to be alternated. But all this boils down to one thing - enforcement.

Ramesh

 

 

silkboard's picture

no parking, as in by govt, PPP etc

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IDS, when I said:

Goal should be to provide no parking

I am saying I dn't want government to worry about providing parking. Bye-laws exist for residential and commercial complexes to leave space for parking. Leave it at that. I do not want govt to spend any dime or time thinking about providing parking, subsidized or not, PPP or self run in the CBD. If the businesses are so keen, let them pool together and build 1000 car complexes.

Govt's time and energy is better spent in enforcing parking related bye-laws.

idontspam's picture

Why not?

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 I am saying I dn't want government to worry about providing parking.

So I am asking where in the world does that exist and why not? The why not is very important.

Naveen's picture

Parking is not a constitutional right

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Parking is not a constitutional right.

Governments should not allow pedestrian spaces to be used for parking; & no public funds should be used for parking facilities "

---- Lloyd Wright

silkboard's picture

Worry, but via bye-laws

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IDS, arguements can go on. Your example cities may still be using public money to provide parking. But before going into car and PT and all that, if you make provision for parking in the bye-laws, there is a need to go enforce that first. Or else, you are encouraging more and more people to run party halls in basements, park on pavements, and lay down dinner tables on front setbacks while you and me put our tax money towards parking spaces.

There would be exceptions, but as a rule, at least in commercial zones, space for parking must come from those who directly benefit from it. I want space for driving, walking and cycling first.

Naveen's picture

No Parking & Driving ?

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I want space for driving, walking and cycling first

If you are driving into town, you would have to park somewhere, be it private /public building or pavement or basement or streetside or no parking zone.

Ideally, streetside parking where possible should be the only public parking spaces & these should have recurring charges by the hour, without exception (even for whole day parking).

Thus, car users will be forced to first consider if their employer's building has parking space for them or not before they take their cars out from home.

Some cities have already started car registrations based on availability of parking space at homes. This is a good deterrent to make sure people don't buy cars only to park on street sides.

Vasanth's picture

Parking charges in offices !!

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 To reduce the car usage, even companies should start charging for car parking. This will discourage car usage for offices too. All the companies in SEZ areas  follow SEZ guidelines and SEZ guideline should include this. Car parking charge should be equivalent to a luxury bus fare. Most of the companies also would have provided shuttles and the monthly shuttle charges should be less than the car parking charges over the entire month. 

begeprasad's picture

I'm not inclined to pay up because

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there's absolutely no(reliable) last mile connectivity to the place where I stay currently, which forces me to use my own vehicle. If I'm able to find a workable solution for this one problem, I'll be the first person to dispose, all of my motorized vehicles.  

As already discussed above, we should make the Govt. enforce the rule stictly which says  'all residential and commercial complexes to leave space for parking in their basement"  Though this may not help in reducing the number of vehicles on the road(traffic) but I'm sure it'll help in reducing the hapazard parking we see on our roads.

Slightly off topic...

   can't our Govt. stop registering more new vehicles in Bengalooru?

Guru

idontspam's picture

If I'm able to find an alternative

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If I'm able to find a workable solution for this one problem, I'll be the first person to dispose, all of my motorized vehicles. 

You dont have to dispose off. You just have to pay because you are not able to work out an alternative. Working out an alternative involves petitioning BMTC/Others to get PT to your place. I am sure when a gun is put to the head people like you & me will work towards arranging alternatives. Right now because we have a car and causing congestion with it doesnt pinch us we care a rats backside if buses come or go within a mile of our place.

 can't our Govt. stop registering more new vehicles in Bengalooru?

Sure if those of us who already own are willing to still pay, else its plain discrimination

begeprasad's picture

If I can afford to pay, I will

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pay, no matter how much the Govt., charges in the name of congestion charges, parking charges, toll charges and whatever other charges one might think of. The key word here is "affordability" and I would say, this in itself is discrimination. Doesn't all this boil down to "money power"?

Now, if I can afford to drive around with all these charges, what a pleasure it'll be...!!! No more congetion on the roads, no more parking problems, no more traffic jams oh... pure bliss...

only if,  you have  "money"

I hope you get my point. Having said that, I do agree we need to decongest our roads and this is one of the ways to do it. As silkboard said "Improve PT, fix auto rajas or last mile ==> parking charges in CBD would be welfare, good for PT" I'm all for this.

Guru

idontspam's picture

 Now, if I can afford to

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 Now, if I can afford to drive around with all these charges, what a pleasure it'll be.

By all means do pay and with pleasure, it will be used to make life better for those who cant. Improve PT is a utopian target, while there is a lot that needs to be done it will never be done unless we make it happen. And we wont make it happen unless we are pushed to the wall. The freebie culture has a lot of excuses, discrimination is just one of them, never satisfactory PT is another. It is a self fulfilling cycle of excuses pushing us to the brink

idontspam's picture

 For all those who believe

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 For all those who believe free parking is a brithright, please read this

Thanks to Ritesh for sharing this on Twitter

idontspam's picture

Brinkmanship

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 there's absolutely no(reliable) last mile connectivity to the place where I stay currently, which forces me to use my own vehicle. If I'm able to find a workable solution for this one problem, I'll be the first person to dispose, all of my motorized vehicles

Just to substantiate my earlier answer to this generally held viewpoint among public. You have to read this. It turns conventional wisdom on its head and reinforces my belief that unless one is forced to the brink change doesnt happen

Kuala Lumpur's experience shows that if you wait for mass transit to be good enough before you do any TDM, then you will probably be waiting for ever

silkboard's picture

yep, can't wait for PT

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PT can never get good enough, because, people always prefer personal vehicles and point to point drop. No matter what you do, PT will never 'be there'.

And for PT to get better, private vehicle users need to exert pressure, which they won't and don't for the same reason - their preference is clear, personal convenience first, PT later.

One way to break this "convenient equilibrium" is to charge, either excessive, or reasonably, for use of all public spaces - roads, parking etc.

If you look at it, road usage fee too is subsidized today - via life time vehicle registration fee. Why not yearly? Or even monthly, may be for only the months you used your vehicle.

Now I am digressing. Bottomline, need something real bad and real fast to reverse the trend. Parking and congestion fees help.

Naveen's picture

Will we ever do it ?

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PT can never get good enough, because, people always prefer personal vehicles and point to point drop. No matter what you do, PT will never 'be there'.

This is generally true worldwide, & can be said with even more emphasis in India because PT systems are generally poor & political commitment to reverse this trend is almost non-existent due to fear of reactions by public & media, even as parties compete with one another to claim credit for widening roads or for building elevated expressways.

We can, however get PT to be "better than" or "preferable to" private transport by enhancing the performance of PT as also by discouraging use of cars. Copenhagen is the leader in this trend with other Scandinavian countries followed by Singapore. Preference for PT with much lower costs & awareness about harmful environmental effects has helped greatly as have enhanced taxes on cars, expensive parking & congestion pricing.

Indian cities have a long way to go - in fact, no start has been made as yet, & the right place to start is by charging heavy road tolls & parking fees, but will we ever "get there" ?

silkboard's picture

to add to the supporting words ...

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... from Naveen above. Since the natural preference in this increasingly nuclear world is personalized everything, measures like congestion charging, or higher parking rate, or disallowing misuse of public space for parking or heavy subsidy for PT (to make it a cheaper alternative) are NOT going to happen via usual popular measures (ie, won't happen democratically).

Political parties or governments won't initiate it (recall BBMP's flip flop). Some groups like ours will have to lobby and spread awareness. A supposedly more aware and forward looking community of people which we are told we have here would have to spread awareness and lobby for something that is not going to be passed in any people's forum today via a voice vote.

ananth.bangalore's picture

Some group discussion we had incidentally on the same topic

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Spoke to some people at work on this interesting issue. When we read, we need to also keep in mind that most of them are basing their opinions on information through regular channels- newspaper, TV etc. At some places, i am also stating verbatim to bring the essence of what was said. Collating here only comments on why someone will not pay from what some said:

Mr. A: I will not pay anything- because that is my way of rebelling against the bad planning of our cities. I am frustrated because of our planning competency- metro is grossly overrated for its capability to solve any traffic, bus stops are located and buses stop right around corners even of major roads (like Silkboard) - a perfect recipe for jams, traffic cops being mute spectators when buses turn into a one way road in the wrong direction (turning at hosur road leading to shantinagar and hockey stadium), etc. etc. “It’s really frustrating to know part of my slogging goes as taxes to pay for such nincompoops whose absence will prove better than their interference.”

Mr. B: I will not pay anything- because the tickets clearly say "BBMP is not responsible for the safety of your vehicle". Imagine if i gave my baggage at the railway cloak room and when i return the guy there says my luggage is not there anymore or it is open and things are missing. I can do nothing about it because my ticket says they are not responsible for the luggage. "Hell, don’t take my bag if you going to not return it or use your cloak room to conveniently rob me with legal immunity".

Mr. C: I will not pay anything- because i believe my tax money is to be used for the city. First roads were exempt- so i pay road tax, now is somebody going to say parking is exempt? Anyway, the buildings that are being constructed should provide for parking as per the bye-laws, should it not? Why should i get penalized if the bye-laws are faulty (not enough parking is made mandatory) or if the implementation of the bye-laws is faulty?

Mr. D- I will not pay anything- Why should i pay anything just because a commercial complex or a mall does not provide enough parking? "In some cases, like in the forum mall, the malls even try finding extra parking space after having used more than 25% of their land for parking. That’s because that’s still profitable for them". So what about others? When i visit someone’s office for a meeting, am i to take a bus lugging my laptop causing my shirt to stink after walking in warm weather? The office complex is supposed to provide parking for visitor. Everybody’s business runs on other people and meeting them. Why should i give trouble to people who visit me or why should i take trouble visiting someone? Change the parking requirement in buildings.

Also, with regard to the congestion, the general consensus seems to be- when anyone drives, they know what they are getting into every time. In spite of that, they decide to drive every time. Some of us might want to make this a big deal, but the truth is that the majority is still driving and causing congestion. That’s how important personal transport is to people. It’s not going to ever change. The solution seems to lie only in proper planning and implementation, there are no short cuts.

Footnote: Maybe the pollution takes a back seat in people's minds because that doesn’t seem to cause trouble immediately. Kind of like a smokers attitude to smoking. One knows it harms them and they want to give up, but what is just one more gonna do? Anyways, that is the truth. But that is not directly relevant to this topic- the group also felt the proper and the right approach is gunning for better cars with less pollution. Needless to say, this group was not the one to appreciate Al Gore approach to things.

idontspam's picture

 Let us paint a picture shall

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 Let us paint a picture shall we?

Today we have approximately 35 lakh vehicles for a population of a little over 75 lakhs with approx 18 lakh of them being 2 wheelers. Means one in every 2 people own a vehicle. It may still be managable. Population is expected to cross 1crore by 2015 and assuming ownership may peak at 90% there will be 90 lakh vehicles on the roads. All the people from A to D in your discussion will only be stuck in a 100 mile long traffic jam in the near future. Why will they do it? Because they have a car and believe the other person will stay at home. The lost productivity 5 years down the line is going to be unimaginable. You have the opportunity to convert atleast 10 lakh 2 wheelers & 1 lakh car owners in the current population to public transport.

What does congestion charging and paid parking do? It pinches you where it hurts most, the pocketbook. Thats why every body opposes. If it didnt hurt them they wouldnt care. This is precisely why congestion charging and paid parking is an effective way to bring order into the city. BTW this has nothing to do with pollution or Al Gore. It is to do with managing commute in the city to ensure you dont lose entire days just fighting the roads. Every other argument is an excuse. All those can be fixed if your livelihood depended on it.

Let me just say, This explanation is like getting into a logical argument with an adamant kid who has tooth abcess & is asking for more choclate because it satisfies his current needs. He is unable to visualize what is going to happen down the road. 

idontspam's picture

Specific rebuttals

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Mr A - If planning is indeed bad why dont you stop paying taxes? why only parking? If Bus is not running properly ask the bus people to do the right thing. By chosing to not pay for parking you are ignoring the bus problem instead of solving it.

Mr B - Lose your luggage in the railway cloak room and see if he pays compensation. He wont! He will ask you to claim insurance. It is a parking service not an insurance service

Mr C & D - Again if you are taking public transport why should you even worry about parking availability? If you are taking a car to you destination you should pay because you are causing congestion or dont patronize the mall/shopping destination which doesnt provide parking. I have stopped going to mantri mall over the weekends because I dont get parking and this is good because there is one less vehicle on the road. One should actually demand less parking not more.

silkboard's picture

ananth - good job

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You are not putting your thoughts on the matter forward via A,B,C,D, are you!?. If you are the same Ananth I met at Lal Bagh twice, I know you are not :)

But what you have shared is the key problem in taking such a project (lobby/proposals for parking/congestion charges) forward. Pushing for proposals that would pinch private vehicle users would require more "inwards" lobbying (as in lobby back to us, people, Praje) than "outward" (babus, netas - as in policy makers and enforcers).

Do we have any group in the city that can do successful inward lobbying (to urban middle class people) on non-popular stands? If we were to do it, any new and different ideas on how to do it? Make powerful movies? dramatize parking problem on some streets to "show" the problem? ban parking for just one day (via bus day like event) to have people see how it helps?

ananth.bangalore's picture

Of People, Progress and Parking.

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Hi IDS- I understand what you say and I agree that some tight-grip measures will do good. Yes, by 2015, as you say, if the traffic grows to 90 lakh vehicles, and I believe, since all of us will constantly sub-consciously evaluate our lives every day, I guess, somewhere around 2013 people might think twice before taking their car out. Also, after a certain growth, the congestion curve will tend to lessen its slope or flatten out just because there are no roads to run those cars, unless somehow new roads materialize- but that is just what will happen. New roads will materialize. Tell you how.

Also we need to remember that this growth in population will not and cannot happen within any high-density population areas. Any population growth will happen around the fringes and in a radiating pattern, unless conscious decisions of how to manage the city growth is made. Some cities work with satellite towns. Growth along 3 main corridors- Whitefield, hosur road and Bellary road will be very noticeable and many kilometers of roads will be added to the system. But noticeably, the width of roads along CBDs will not change (desperate measures like troubling, badly planned flyovers, magic boxes etc. will get added,) and thus force these corridors to branch off and become sustainable systems- sort of like mini CBDs. Now the corridors between these mini CBDs will choke because of their widths and lack of planning foresight. This is already visible- Koramangala, Varthur junction, Sarjapur. A city normally grows this way- urban studies and planning principles help in understanding this phenomenon well. Yes, corridors between major cities clog up because of too big cities (like there was a jam in china some days back which lasted for 10 days and a small transit township formed there), but inside the cities, that does not happen in the same proportion, even if left to spontaneous non-managed growth (which is pretty much the case here). So yes, the situation will become very bad especially in the main transit corridors, but just cannot become bad enough. Nobody is going to 'stay at home' or even use public transport because it just will not come to that. People will simply use the PRR between these hubs and load the PRR until that becomes bad and another RR happens.

It is also hard to believe that congestion charges and paid parking will make a difference to traffic issues. They might counter the effects of introduction of very affordable cars. Do we have anything to suggest that traffic in our roads has grown more due to making the parking free some time back? Most people who own cars will just pay up the charges and these charges will just become a part of owning the car. Just like another price rise. Personal comfort is a very powerful factor, which will be hard to counter. Even small car users will, imo, tends to just pay it, and move on. All of us know the history of price rise in either owning a car or using it- car prices, fuel prices and all kinds of other maintenance costs have been rising. But these seem to have hardly affected the car sales growth.

Also IDS, you state that "This has nothing to do with pollution….". That is how you see it. Someone else might want to see parking charges as a tool to curb private vehicle usage and thus pollution. That footnote was meant for those.

Also, the 'tooth abscess' that you mention- there do exist those people who are so frustrated that they want to kick the backside of the system and yes, also take the pain of doing so in return. By the people, for the people. Well, as far as visualization goes, we want it or not, these are the people one will have to deal with trying to make any change.

Hi Pranav- yes, me the same. :) And yes, we had this FGD even before I saw this topic here, in a different context, since our work draws our interest to many urban design and planning issues. With regard to any kind of lobbying, inwards or outwards, we believe people come first before any organization/ government body and not the other way. Yes, participative governance is important and that is the way to solve issues, but only when these issues are looked at holistically. Also, it should not become a bad habit that 'parcitipation' is used as an escape route for all lack of competency in planning. People need not take the brunt everytime. One should also talk about what led to this situation and address those issues as well, without which we have little hope for any success in implementation. Are we talking about punishing people and amending the system? Yes, both- long shot, but there are no short cuts. Being nihilistic?-no-just pragmatic. Guess people who dont want to pay for parking come from here.

Naveen's picture

Transport pricing is important

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It is also hard to believe that congestion charges and paid parking will make a difference to traffic issues

It has made a lot of difference wherever it has been tried (Singapore, London, Copenhagen /Scandinavia) !

In India, private transport has been both, cheaper (atleast, with two-wheelers) & also much more efficient than public transport. Thus, we have a situation where even delivery boys, factory employees, milkmen & low skill technicians all using private transport (particularly two wheelers) in preference to public transport.

If the relative difference in costs between public transport & private transport is increased substantially & if public transport is made efficient, I think it will show results since the majority private transport in use are two-wheelers, whose owners are highly price conscious.

If supply of parking is strictly controlled & charged for as also costs for car ownership increased substantially, car use can also be restrained provided there are much cheaper & far more dependable alternatives than now. It's only when alternatives tend to be poor & cannot compete with benefits of car that car use increases.

The challenge really is how to bring this about - though enforcement is democratically difficult, some indirect methods can be employed, such as construction on PPP basis of all new flyovers across traffic signals with tolls, all new multi-level parking lots with high parking charges, etc whilst boosting public transport & pricing them competitively. This will encourage private investment for infrastructure construction, but at the same time, discourage car usage.

idontspam's picture

Proof

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 It is also hard to believe that congestion charges and paid parking will make a difference to traffic issues

If this is the crux of the argument read here

Congestion charging in Stockholm has cut traffic by as much as 50% and air pollution by 14%.

kbsyed61's picture

All Excuses!

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Yes, participative governance is important and that is the way to solve issues, but only when these issues are looked at holistically. Also, it should not become a bad habit that 'participation' is used as an escape route for all lack of competency in planning. People need not take the brunt every time. One should also talk about what led to this situation and address those issues as well, without which we have little hope for any success in implementation. Are we talking about punishing people and amending the system? Yes, both- long shot, but there are no short cuts. Being nihilistic?-no-just pragmatic. Guess people who don't want to pay for parking come from here.

What a lofty ideal to say I will participate only when the policies are pro-people? I will agree to pay parking charges only if BMTC bus starts playing from my door?

This line of arguments in the above assertions reminds of a saying "The person who really wants to do something finds a way; the other person finds an excuse.  ~Author Unknown."

I see no difference between this and predictions of doomsday believers who tried to convinced that our whole fiscal system will collapse if VAT is introduced. Look at today the results of VAT system in the states. I must remind here that when VAT was introduced country-wide, this was already a success story in Haryana. But still as in the parking charge haters, VAT opposers had forwarded every excuse they could from their stock. Look at today, even those who were opposed in initial weeks now have adopted to its fullest extent. nothing has changed in the VAT policies since its inception. Recently one of the AP state Tax department officer confided to me that the compliance has increased so much that their private income has almost vanished. Their job has lost its charm for making huge monies. But states have immensely benefited from the higher compliance and here VAT system deserves due credit. This doesn't mean that the system is 100% perfect. Believe me there would always be an opportunity to make it better and correct current anomalies.

IDS, Naveen, if there are success stories and time tested examples, naysayers needs to be left alone on this journey.

ananth.bangalore's picture

Buses and me.

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My name is Narayanamurthy. I live in Bangalore. I used to take buses to go to and come from my office at Koramangala to Domlur.

It was really warm during summers and I had to lug around some drawing sheets and a laptop.

It was so frustrating to wait for 201 to arrive- took anywhere between 15 and 45 mins. And when it did arrive, it stopped anywhere within 50m from where I was standing so some jogging was in order.

Lots of times, 2 buses (both 201) arrive at the same time and hoping the other will stop, both moves on without stopping. So sometimes, i waited for another 15-45 mins.

So the result was that the 3rd bus which did stop had all the crowd of the previous 2 as well and it was nearly impossible to get in.

After I got in, I realized, there is no place to put my face other than in someone else's armpits; there are armpits all around me at very close quarters. Was that just a bad deo or something else? (He is almost always a good construction worker returning after a hard days labor).

I used to wish that by some miracle 201 took the intermediate ring road instead of going through ashok nagar, wood street, MG road, triity junction, ulsoor, indiranagar and then domlur. But that never happened then. So I used to be stuck up with the bad deo (?) for the next 1hr and 15 mins. I remember hoping for some moving space after MG road or even for some more crowd, so I could get pushed to another underarm. I cursed my nose for being so sensitive. God, I used to like the fact that I could smell what was cooking at home for dinner when I just walked in.

Somehow I used to survive the ordeal each day. I remember the day when it was amazingly crowded. But the crowd went off when I reached domlur as it was a last stop. But I guess the bus was late for the arrival and the driver was speeding. The driver just took off after I barely got down and another lady who was just between the last step and the ground fell. Fortunately, she fell away from the bus and the bus was not yet turning into the depot, so she did not go under the wheel. She was bleeding- she had hurt her lips with her teeth. When I was helping her up, both of us could see the conductor looking at us from the back windshield of the speeding bus and hitting his forehead with his palm. He was blaming the lady! I realized it could happen to me as well.

But I couldn’t do anything more- had to rush- it had taken 3 hours to reach domlur from koramangala. Doesn’t it take even lesser time to go to Mysore?

Then I was hungry, but realized with shock my wallet was gone. My 2 credit cards, one debit card, some cash (about 1000 bucks), my duplicates of DL, PAN card.. all gone. I realized i will have to spend about 2 hours calling both SBI and Citibank. Also, had to block the UTI bank (axis bank now) debit card. I hoped by the time I was done, the crook had not bought an used car and zoomed away. I had to also search my bag to see if he picked up anything from my back (my bag was on my shoulder). Nothing was missing from there except a flash drive. Great. IT city crook. I also realized that i would be fool to expect anything to happen even if i went to the cops. Unfortunately, one of the cards was a new one and i didn’t know the card number. By now, my hunger was gone and replaced by more frustration.

My trouser was torn slightly at the pocket where he must have used his blade. Just when i thought i can’t be more frustrated.

I walked towards home- it was almost 8:00PM after a long tired day and suddenly 3 hijras (Eunuchs) approached and started pestering for money. They were almost threatening me with disgusting stuff, lifting their sarees and touching me all over. I never gave to beggars, but would have done so that day. They did not believe i did not have my wallet. So they followed me for 5 mins threatening me. "You will have to go this route everyday"- one said.

That day i vowed i will have my own transport or leave here. Since i didnt want to go to London or Singapore or Copenhagen or someplace like that, i bought a car soon. And i have never looked back.

Now I take 45 minutes for a similar distance in a similar traffic. I never roll down my windows, have the AC on and listen to audiobooks. I just finished ‘superfreakonomics’.

idontspam's picture

Touching tale, there is a lot

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Touching tale, there is a lot to be done on the bus side. I would say BMTC has been kind enough to listen but it will take more time to get where we need to go.

So while we all work on it please pay for the car you use and the comfort it provides so the money can be used for better PT and pedestrian facilities so others dont meet the same fate as you. Hopefully we can actually ensure the money does go there and not line some pockets, that the only thing we need to ensure.

ananth.bangalore's picture

holistic approach is the key

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Narayanamurthy will pay anything that is charged. He will never get out of his car. For him, congestion is better than another day like that.. And like IDS says, he will hope that everything he is paying will go into doing the right thing for the city and not into someone else's pocket. But he knows that takes effort from all fronts (like controlling corruption, better planning). That is why he refuses to see this as a separate issue. He knows India ranks 84 in corruption index. He couldnt find anything like "Governing Authorities' Competency Index". And anyways, indices are just quantities. He knows what he goes through.

idontspam's picture

That is why he refuses to see

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That is why he refuses to see this as a separate issue.

Congestion has to be seen as a separate issue. It cant be dependent on removal of world poverty or the "provisioning of the best PT service". I can take any issue and link it to corruption index and use that as an excuse to do nothing. Believe me people will buy cars, ply them, regardless of the level of corruption in the administration and then proceed to ask for widening of roads to accomodate them.

ss87's picture

 @Mr. Narayanmurthy You

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 @Mr. Narayanmurthy

Your ordeal is very touching sir and seriously a lot needs to be done for development of BMTC-but may I know how long before did the incident you had mentioned took place?

 

There was a point in your statement regarding that you hoped the bus went via Inner ring road-Till 2001 201(Srinagar to Domlur) was the only frequent bus plying-but things changed drastically after that. Between 2001 and 2002 came the 201G,201J etc where 201G's frequency was increased leaps and bounds and it ran via the IRR. Then along the same route came 201D(Madiwala Masjid to Indiranagar), 201M(Hampi nagar to Jeevanbhimanagar), 201MA(St. Johns to Jeevanbhimanagar), 412(ISRO layout to Hennur), MBS-8(Banashankari to Kalyan nagar), and the more recent buses K-1(St. Johns to Yeshvantapur) and Volvo 201R(Srinagar to C.V.Raman Nagar) which all ran via Inner Ring road crossed the Airport road to stop at the Doopanhalli 100 ft road stop. the advent of these buses has decreased the crowd of 201 and nowadays conductors themselves discourage passengers beyond Ulsoor in the round about route advising them to board the direct routes. 

Naveen's picture

Fallacy in the argument

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The two arguments here are :

1) Govt inefficiencies /corruption that plays a role in how it prevents the operation of an efficient public transport system & the lack of focus on users (as with most public services); &

2) Addressing congestion issues that are crippling the city because of the above, & made far worse because those people that can afford cars (or other private modes for commuting), tend to use them, assuming that nothing can be done to improve things - unfortunately, such people are an overwhelming majority.

Erradicating corruption entirely is impossible for any country. In India, corruption seems to have worsened now after liberalization due to the innumberable ways that have opened up for manipulation.

In this backdrop, do we continue to argue that the traffic mess is linked to corruption which cannot be erradicated & therefore, charging for parking /congestion will never work ? Or, do we try to pitch in with our efforts to stem the rot ?

For starters, we have examples quoted by Syed & ss87, describing some successes or improvements. If the educated lot give up & assume that nothing can be done, nothing will ever get done, for sure ! After all, this is a democracy & people's participation is needed just as much as the govt to bring about changes or improvements.

ss87's picture

 As we have discussed it a

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 As we have discussed it a lot of times earlier lot of bangaloreans face the problem of not knowing the proper bus routes and weakness in the Geographic location of the city due to which they prefer using their Pvt vehicles-BMTC too hasnt done anything to dissuade the private users from not using their vehicles and also gone back on publicity-If BMTC takes it seriously many issues of road congestion would definitely be solved

Eg: There was no information by BMTC regarding which route the Small Circle or the "K" routes took. From Jayanagar to Dairy circle the only options available were 7D , 7G and 340C which ran via Ashoka pillar or 162A which ran via BTM and silk board and both were quite detorous and non-frequent routes. But K-3 follows the route of Jayanagar-Sanjay gandhi-Carmel convent-Bannerghatta road and Dairy circle which is a good option and bus has a good frequency. But despite 6 months of its introduction the crowd on this route has just reached about 55% which shows the poor publicizing by BMTC

ananth.bangalore's picture

Corruption is the first filter in any reform implementation.

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@IDS- The issue was about assurance on how the money that the public pays will be used for the public benefit- this has nothing to do with 'world poverty' or 'best PT service'. But of course, like you said, you can take any issue and link to corruption. So how do you deduce that we should overlook that? Why is that not indicative of something that is visible in plain sight? Maybe there is also a need to define the line which separates ‘excuse’ and ‘reason’.

@ss87- Surely this story happened a long time ago, when there were no buses plying the IRR (and that was long after the IRR existed for use). Yes, of course, the situation might be very different now with regard to the frequency of buses. But I have no clue if the attitude of the drivers (about stopping or not stopping), convenient frequencies in any route, attitude of the on-board staff  (recently there was this article in Bangalore mirror about a guy who was dragged on for some distance stuck in a closing door) etc. have improved. Also, I am sure that the police apathy (or may be just helplessness) and hijra extortion (recently there were reports on how some eunuchs beat up some girls in the forum junction at koramangala for not paying up) has not changed, if not become worse.

@ Naveen- The arguments are these actually:

1)      Corruption and government apathy & inefficiencies lead to environment not conducive to people choosing public transport over the comfort of their vehicles.

2)      People tend to use their cars even after being aware of the above problems and they are skeptical anything can be done to improve the situation. Unfortunate truth, but truth nevertheless.

Don’t see any fallacy there. Will help if you can point out the kind of fallacy. Actually to me, there looks like there is a 'Post Hoc' in what you say.

 @IDS, ss87, Naveen-

I agree it will be almost impossible to eradicate corruption. And Naveen is right; we need to do our bit to stem the rot. But the point is that careful study in that direction is needed before we conclude we cannot stem the rot to the required extent to implement the design being developed here and also ensure that this implementation cannot be tampered with. Educated people are not giving up or saying nothing can be done, they are fuming with nowhere to go and nowhere to start.

For the sake of implementing a possible set of actionable points that might evolve from here, our implementation plan should foremost propose how to actually implement effectively.  Let’s take up one bit at a time and let that one bit become inaccessible, off-limits to people who want to use the system for short cuts and corrupt it. We need to also know that the first will be the most difficult. Not only parking charges, corruption will have to be the first filter in any implementation. We need to be our own devil’s advocate and figure out all possible methods by which one can corrupt the design and plug those holes there. Will be a lot of side work, but they will be key to the thing working. We can do this or we we will be forced to pay up and sit and pray.

 

idontspam's picture

You started with this It is

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You started with this

It is also hard to believe that congestion charges and paid parking will make a difference to traffic issues

This has been addressed and the example of 201 has also been disproved, now you want transgenders cleared from the street, next you will want your plumbing to be fixed before you will set foot in a bus.

Let me address where you have ended up.

 Corruption and government apathy & inefficiencies lead to environment not conducive to people choosing public transport over the comfort of their vehicles.

Too generic a statement that can be applied to any issue.  I can say there is inefficiency & corruption so I wont pay my taxes. But that is not a choice you are given, you will be behind bars, so you instead get lokayukta etc to fix it.

People tend to use their cars even after being aware of the above problems and they are skeptical anything can be done to improve the situation. Unfortunate truth, but truth nevertheless.

We are not counting on them to do anything anyway, this is why we need to levy a penalty. We cant fix unreasonableness like we cant fix corruption. Here is something reasonable, I would like you to use the same reason and stop govt from from collecting income taxes then we can apply the same here.

ss87's picture

 @Mr. Narayanmoorthy   Sir I

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 @Mr. Narayanmoorthy

 

Sir I am very proud to say one thing- I have been travelling from 2001 in BMTC buses till date. My entire 10th std, college life everything has gone in bus travel only. and I have never regretted travelling by the same. I have generally faced reports of the staff of BMTC and the various other things that every BMTC traveller faces-but there have been various good things too that happened. 

 

We have generally complained about buses not stopping at designated stops, chiding at pass holders etc. But it once happened that once I was in a hurry to return from college and as I was nearing Lalbagh West gate(Year 2005) a bus crossed me. I made a run. There were hardly 2-3 passengers at the stop and so I knew the bus would move before I reach it-but my legs didnt stop running. To my surprise the bus didnt move! The driver had actually noticed me in the rear view mirror and didnt move the bus until i grabbed the handle-well an incident I doubt happened in any other city and felt worth mentioning here. 

 

Also there have been never instances of buses not stopping when I needed to get down-A shout of "Hold-on" always ensured that the bus is braked. when 2 buses raced it is always better to get down the front door-the bus is generally bound to be empty in these runs

 

So i wont say all staff are non-corteous. i can actually go on and on narrating more incidents in my 10 year daily travel of BMTC but anyway it is going to lead to only one point where I stand. I certainly hope i wont be driving the clogged streets of Bangalore atleast for some time now leaving BMTC behind

Naveen's picture

The Fallacy

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1)      Corruption and government apathy & inefficiencies lead to environment not conducive to people choosing public transport over the comfort of their vehicles.

One cannot agree with this since the "environment" for travel by BMTC city buses is probably the best for any city in the country with the addition of many types of services, including the highest number of air-conditioned services. Overcrowding in buses & at bus stops (or dirty street sides that pass off as bus stops) in Mumbai during peak hours is to be seen to be believed, not to mention other cities like Kolkata, Delhi, Hyderabad or Chennai, where the quality of buses is extremely poor.

The sore points with BMTC that need correction are: (a) they continue adding new routes sporadically thereby increasing the total number of routes (I think this is probably not their fault since they have to accept demands from so many quarters - in fact the route system has evolved & become so complicated because of this); (b) their routes are not advertised anywhere; (c) schedules are not maintained (again, probably due to traffic in most cases); & (d) bus number /route information on many buses continue to be only in kannada (again, probably not their fault since they have to operate in a state that has elements which will cause havoc, similar to most other states in the country).

2)      People tend to use their cars even after being aware of the above problems and they are skeptical anything can be done to improve the situation. Unfortunate truth, but truth nevertheless.

There are many who have switched from cars to buses & some have narrated their experiences here too. Unless one tests actual travel periodically, he wouldn't know - the eg., as described by ss87, are routes between Koramangala & Indiranagar, where we have so many routes now when compared with a few years ago.

 

So, the justification for car use is not convincing enough, though the choice is entirely the individual's - it cannot however, be demanded as a right. Car use, absence of parking costs & congestion pricing are deleterious from both, fairness to bus users & the environment point of view. Lack of sufficient acknowledgement of this by the educated /better off classes is unfortunate, & this is where we need to make the difference.

ananth.bangalore's picture

What matters

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@IDS- I will reiterate- Congestion charges and paid parking might not do much to ease traffic congestion. The context of this statement is also very clear. Congestion charges and paid parking as separate measures will not provide desired results as implementation will be plagued. Also, there was nothing to prove or disprove with regard to ‘201’, it was merely a constituent in contributing to the issue at the time when it was experienced, as was the unfortunate transgender incident, as were others. It was all contributing to understanding the issue at hand. Any my plumbing to be fixed- this comment is unwarranted for.

Too generic a statement? True, because the issue is generic. Regarding paying my taxes- I will pay any kind of mandatory taxes, and still know the money is going into some else’s pockets. The question is do you want to give more to those by public mandate? Lokayukta is a great tool, albeit with its own issues as well, as some other thread in this forum had pointed out.

@ss87- Great to know your experience over time has been very positive. Also, almost all the incidents you have narrated seem to demonstrate the good-will of the people around, which Is very promising. The point being, there still is not any regulated implementation where one does not have to shout ‘Hold on’, or depend just on the good-will of the community. If we are depending on the good-will of the community, then there will be no need for laws or governance.

@Naveen- Just a clarification- “Environment” simply meant “Conditions” and not whether the bus has A/C. I believe your statements are also in the same spirit. With regard to comparison with other cities, these cities are also plagued with similar issues as ours or worse adding the conditions of worse buses (from what you said). And I don’t know if people prefer PT there more- don’t feel so. I agree with all other points put forward by Naveen- these are real issues that have to be dealt with. Also, I agree that it will be difficult for one to ‘prove’ or ‘disprove’ the willingness of people to switch from cars to buses without hard evidence. And Praja members will surely not be the perfect market mix to do this study, for obvious reasons. My posts contains my opinions only and I believe “People tend to use their cars even after being aware of the above problems and they are skeptical anything can be done to improve the situation.” That is not a justification, but merely the situation at hand.

Simple question- After private vehicle users pay up for everything that is being charged, how is one to know that last paisa will be used for the betterment of the system? Once we address this, surely the parking charges should be increased and congestion charges be charged. Not before that.

idontspam's picture

50% not understandable?

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 Congestion charges and paid parking might not do much to ease traffic congestion.

What part of 50% do you not understand?

 I will pay any kind of mandatory taxes

This is exactly the type of toll Congestion charge is going to be. 

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