Guys,
Take the liberty of discussing what is working at BIAL and what is not working. Pls do discuss and respond to others but be mindful of others and pls maintain respect for others. Issue based and focus on issues. No attack on personalities.
Let's agree to disagree.
Thanks,
Re: Is it True?
Though I dont know the exact answer if the max pax of the terminal was inclusive of the 3 lounges or not.. if it is then its a joke - Mr Brunner must have got everything wrong - sorry Sir this is not a part of the airport that is accessed by all the passengers... there will be serious issues if this is true..
Thanks Devesh
Hi Devesh,
Thanks for the pointer, The reason for me thinking that tyre smoke = hard landing was that not all landings had this smoke. I mean there were other A300 sized aircrafts landing where i did not notice this. :-)
-- Praveen Sundaram AkA PhotoYogi
-- PhotoYogi
Solution to BIAL problems !
Airlines are cutting back on flights due to mounting losses, which might solve BIAL problems to a certain extent :)
http://specials.rediff.co...
http://ia.rediff.com/money/2008/jun/17roll.htm
Another one from VVR !
I have couple of questions to ask.
2. Is connectivity part of the BIAL commitment/contract?
3. How would opening HAL airport would change/rectify all of the BIAL problems(as you had portrayed)? "
Here is what our VVR has to say:
"... Let me take a crack at a couple of your questions.
Connectivity -- yes indeed, it is BIAL's responsibility. Why did they stop after building the spur from NH-7 to the airport? They should have built an elevated expressway all the way to HAL airport so that all the people that seem most affected by its (HAL's) closing were well taken care off. They should also have usurped the BETL project and completed it before opening BIAL so that all the frequent travellers from Electronics City had a free ride to BIAL. And yeah, they could have also completed the unfinished 500 meters of the BMIC peripheral road that those blokes could not finish inspite of full support and encouragement from our government. I could go on and on but I am sure you get the drift...
How would re-opening HAL change things? I could easily list a hundred things but here are a just a few. The ugly frog of an international airport we have (i.e. BIAL) will turn into a prince, all our LCCs and short haul routes will become profitable overnight (because they have a great business model, after all their motto is - "we turn a shitty little business into a shitty BIG business"), but most importantly further debate in this thread will cease and we can go back to looking at pretty pictures of BIAL.
I for one, am looking forward to HAL reopening because we in East Bangalore need help to bring to fruition our idea of converting a straight stretch of ORR into a landing strip so that we will have our own handy little airport. We know where to go to get a basic terminal building and needless to say, connectivity will be exceptional. There will be minor inconveniences for ORR users but screw them. This is a democracy and I speak for the rest of us. "
Courtsey - http://www.skyscrapercity.com
Non functional airline lounges
If the airlines are not developing and using the lounges, TAKE THE SPACE BACK!!!!!!!!!!!
In any case, the lounges are meant only for the Business/First Class and FFP status passengers. So it is not going to relieve much of the pressure.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Chennai-Bangalore flights go near empty
Rail as opposed to air
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Death of low cost carriers
Put a stop to reviving HAL
What could work though is...
May work but are we missing the forest for the trees?
Great experience at BIAL
I had a great experience at BIAL departing. Congrats to them, they are putting things in shape.
I have limited internet connectivity right now, will come back to Bangalore tonight and post my full report, including arrival. Still do not know how to post pics on Praja.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Kingfisher Airlines First Airbus A330 at BIAL
Hi Everybody
Got a picture of Kingfisher's brand new first Airbus A330 which landed just a few minutes earlier. http://aviation.deveshaga...
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Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
KF's A330
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
It's just the rubber burning
Re: Tyre smoke does not indicate hard landings
Bigger planes have a larger weight and a higher Vs(stall speed). Vref, the final approach speed tends to be anywhere between 1.3 to 1.6 times (or more) above Vs depending on various factors like the aircraft,landing weight, altitude of airfield, temperature outside etc. In a nutshell larger aircraft (777,747,340,330 etc.) have higher landing speeds than smaller aircraft (ATR,Embraer regional jets. etc) and not the other way around as pointed out.
-bialterminal
flightstats on google search
Thanks. This was interesting site.
This site have interesting results on google search (http://www.flightstats.com/go/Syndication/widgets.do#googleSearch) :
Airline-code Flight-number when typed in google search gives first result to the flight status
Airport-code arrivals (or departures) in google search gives arrival (or departure) status information for all flights.
Sanjay
Landing speeds
Hi BT
Yes, you are right. B747 is 150 KIAS, B737 is 135.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
fast rail track Mg road to Bial
Airport express - white elephant
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
devesh
The White Elephant COntd
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Connectivity will cost 3x the cost of airport
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
capacity constraints - fixing the terminal
Woud like to share/discuss one among many possible solutions to fix the capacity issues with the current terminal design, take a look at - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=21955026&postcount=3273
Cargo Customs at BIAL !
Devesh,
Per your recent posts and reports, it seems custom clearance for cargo is still continued at HAL airport. Isn't it this adding to the woes of Cargo at BIAL?
Is this a practice all over the world or just sheer politics in not shifting to BIAL.
To me if it is OK to have the clearance at HAL airport, this can as well be done in Customs collectorate office near Queens Raods/Infantry Road?
Is there anything on the Cards from Industry Chambers to set right this gross anomoly?
Syed
Split Customs between HAL and BIAL
This is a point of great contention for industry as it is really hitting hard in terms of cost and efficiency.
It is a combination of the bureaucracy of Customs coupled with the non-readniness of the cargo terminals.
So the servers have not been shifted. Now papers are collected the day after cargo lands, take across, assessment (examining and valuation of the paperwork) is done in the old MSIL complex at HAL, duty paid, and then the papers are brought back to BIAL, where the cargo is extracted from the bonded warehouse, physically examined and verified, and then the cargo is released. This rigmarole is adding 2 days to the clearing process, and of course cost of making 4 trips between the two airports, and not to mention the physical toll on the customs agents.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
BIAL pushing passengers to trains and buses
Plane truth: Trains fare better
By Nandini Chandrashekar, DH News Service, Bangalore:
Frequent short haul air travellers from Bangalore seem to be preferring the train, discouraged by the distance and time taken to travel to the new Bengaluru International Airport (BIA).
South-Western Railway officials here have noticed a great increase in passengers notably on the Shatabdi trains running between Chennai and Bangalore. Booking on these trains have been steady at 100 per cent beginning from the month of May.
Five trains ply daily between Bangalore and Chennai at present, excluding a weekend train. While most of these trains do experience heavy traffic, the Shatabdi has been facing unprecedented rush for the past two months and the trend appears set to continue.
Bangalore Divisional Railway Manager Akhil Agarwal told Deccan Herald that booking had increased significantly on Chennai, Hyderabad and Kochi-Trivandrum routes.
“We are going to observe this for a couple of more months and if the trend continues, then we will either add coaches to the existing trains or add a new train on the route.”
Shatabdi trains at present are running with seven coaches and these are likely to be augmented to 10 coaches.
Officials are still keenly watching the other sectors like Hyderabad and Kochi. There has been a definite increase in bookings on the Hyderabad route as well, but a senior railway official pointed out that it could also be due to the introduction of the Garib Rath train in the month of February.
The route towards Kochi and Trivandrum is a busy sector any time of the year and it has been difficult to establish the reason.
Travel agents have no doubts whatsoever, about the decline and the reasons for it. Rakesh P of Jagadish Air Travels admitted that they had a staggering 65-70 per cent drop in air ticket bookings to Chennai after the opening of the new airport. His clients clearly expressed their unwillingness to travel the long distance to the airport for a 30-minute flight.
He also said a considerable number of his clients who flew to Chennai to visit the consulates now prefers Shatabdi or a bus. In fact, so popular has been the demand for buses, that the agency started bus bookings as well to keep in tune with the customer requirements.
Another travels, Classic Air Travels, has also experienced a 50 per cent drop in their bookings to Chennai.
Interestingly enough, the passenger traffic to Hubli and Mangalore has fluctuated slightly, but nothing to indicate decreased air travel.
The reason, says Rakesh, could be because the number of travellers on this route have always been less, due to high costs and the ones that did travel could well afford it and would continue doing so.
Buses to Chennai seem to be faring pretty well considering that this is considered to be a slump season.
Phanindra Sama, CEO of redbus.in, the online portal offering reservations for 300 bus companies, said that sale of tickets to Chennai had jumped by about 35 per cent.
The increase was across all kinds of buses as the travel time is only five hours.
This time advantage seems to have encouraged software companies, who send their employees to obtain visas, to take the bus.
“There is a definite cost and time advantage to taking the bus to Chennai these days,” he added.
Source : The Deccan Herald
http://www.deccanherald.c...
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
BIAL is one factor
Devesh,
There are a couple more factors contributing to this.
a. Airfares have jumped up 50-60% in the last 2 months (coincidentally since about the time BIAL opened)
b. Companies are facing cost pressures due to the weak economic environment.
From the tone of your post, I sense you see this move to trains as a negative. Not sure why.
IR needs to take this golden opportunity and make this corridor a high speed one - (like the Delhi Bhopal one) and let a few trains average 90-100 kmph. Two trains - one at about 5:30 a.m. and one at 6:00 a.m. from each side covering the distance in 4 hrs will be great. One more set at 5:30 and 6:00 in the evening. If each has 14 coaches with 70 capacity each - you are looking at 2000 capacity in the morning and 2000 in the evening. That is 30 flights.
Srivathsa
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Splitting Duties
of course this comment is in my humble opinion!
I am personally happy to see short haul flights being cut down. Instead of looking at this from a "zoomed in" perspective if we step back and look at the entire country's transport system. I belive Rail is a more effective, practical, cheaper and greener method to travel short distances.
IMO Indian railways has been very slow in moving forward with better service, They are just eating out of Avaition's loss. If they acted smart enough this crowd that is now migrating to train would have migrated earlier irrespective of the airport/ATF.
The following statistics are for the Eurostar Route (London - Edinburgh) which is relatively close to the Bangalore - Chennai Route. It shows the CO2 consumption per passenger.
(Source here )
Fuel is a finite resource, we have a way of consuming less why not encourage it? Why not work on making Train journeys to Chennai even faster and more frequent? Why not start creating Train + Rail journeys?
All across India if we can do away with short haul flights and improve our rail network it would work wonders! Instead of choosing only 1 mode of travel, lets try and see which mode is most pratical and relevant to a specific journey.
Lastly, i would reccomend that IR tie up with the airlines/airports and work together instead of competing. Maybe BIAL can be a station (broad guage) that trains from mysore & chennai pass through?
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
IR should introduce extra
Garib Raths and Jan Shatabdis Needed
Garib Raths and Jan Shatabdis with all types of classes in it with the speed of Shatabdis is needed to connect major cities instead of the expensive Shatabdis. These Shatabdis are expensive and cater only one cadre of people. Executive class people can take the executive class coaches in Jan Shatabdis and a common man a normal non a/c sitting.
Trains are even cheaper than buses, for example Mysore-Bangalore normal bus is 74 rupees and train is 45 rupees. Volvo is 200 rupees and a non-stop train which covers the distance in same time as volvo is 55 rupees.
Fuel Populism adds to BIAL's woes
Hi Sri
You are right from a point of view. We must not forget that travellers pay a premium for air travel due to productivity. Check my latest blog entry. I have also re-posted it on Praja. http://praja.in/bangalore....
A train is a great idea. In fact, the Delhi Bhopal Shatabdi averages 100+ till Gwalior or Kanpur. So 3 hours to Chennai is very possible. Depart 7am reach 10pm return 7pm to 10pm. The train will go packed.
IR had suggested a Chennai - Bangalore high speed rail corridor. A very senior and superbly credentialled bureaucrat who I met along with my Chamber President, shot down the idea. The reason (in the bureaucrat's own words) ...... "We have enough immigration of Tamilians and Malayalees. We should not make it easier for them to come to Bangalore. Better to first construct Hubli to Bangalore, and then we can consider Chennai Bangalore."
Both my President and me, sat there stunned.
I still hold this officer in very high esteem, with this one exception, of course.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Chennai to BIAL via IndiaStar
Great idea Narayan. May be the Mysore - Bangalore - Chennai Shatabdi can make a stop at BIAL. There is a railway station right near the trumpet (on the Chikkaballapur line).
London to Ediburgh is actually 550km if I remember correctly. The route via Glasgow is 720km. So it is more like Bangalore-Hyderabad.
The plane journey is 1:15 and train is 4:30 to 5:30 depending whether on the East Coast line or Glasgow line.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Plane Vs Train
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
My BIAL experience
I was fortunate to take off from the brand new Terminal 5 in London and land in the brand new Bengaluru International Airport recently.
Terminal 5 (new home of BA), after it's teething troubles has started operations to New York, Los Angeles, Beijing, Cairo, and another 7-8 cities including Bengaluru. Now, our Bengaluru was rubbing shoulders with some heavy weight cities of this planet.., and why not.., it is afterall the IT outsourcing capital of the world!
I was looking forward to landing in Bengaluru ever since Photoyogi first broke the news to the world on the 23rd of May:-). Photoyogi, I still think you were the first to break this news, much before ToI, Rediff, DH or any other TV news channel!
The lights were twinkling in and around probably what was Devanahalli just before the wee hours of the morning. And then there it was - the bright and sparkling lights showcasing the airport in full splendour. The airport definetly looked "international" as the flight landed. I remember Mr. Brunner saying this is just 30% of the airport yet. Hmm.., this is good and it will get better..?!
But wait, and then, the PTB came into full view. Hmm.., this looks kind of smaller than what I thought it would be - was the first thought that came to my mind. No wonder Devesh and many others have been complaining it is small.., with the honourable minister Mr. Patel also now joining the chorus. But, all the glass and steel made it gleam and shine and look smart.
I was out of the flight and other formalities including baggage claim was done in 25 minutes flat. That was quick, I thought. But, now my little one needed a nappy change and lo behold in the Baby Center, there was, but one chair to complete the chore. My wife and I scratched our heads.., but with some deft handling of the little one, the nappies and the chair, we got the job done. BIAL needs to fix this. Now, that made me wonder why should I not check out the rest room for the adults..? Good news.., it was clean as a whistle and I breathed a sigh of relief.
As we stepped out, the day had broken out and I could see some folks waiting to receive their near and dear ones and also the mandatory placards as in any other airport in the world. Not too many here. Must be the time and the distance from the city I thought. The fresh air was very much Bengaluru and made me smile.
We had made up our minds to use the BMTC Vajra Vayu and had forbidden any family members from coming so early in the morning. I looked around and there they were, looking welcoming. As we started in that direction, we were accosted by some City taxi folks. Now, weren't you all excluded from working out off the new airport, I asked one of them. No way, we cannot go into the inner lanes meant for the Meru taxis, but we can operate from a little further off, he informed. One of them tried to sell us the proposition that since there were 4 of us and going by the Vajra Vaayu would cost us Rs.600 to Jayanagar 4th block, he can take us to our doorstep for just the same amount. Hmm, no way, I thought. I must use the BMTC services and do my bit for the environment. As we moved towards the bus, the little one started bawling and the conductor said the bus will start in 15 minutes. We hastily summoned the City taxi and got home in 50 minutes. That was real good, even at 7:35 AM on a sunday morning. The magic boxes have done something after all. The six lane golf course road was cool. All the cut trees on this road have now been planted at UAS, the driver offered. I am not sure if that was really the case. But, I do hope he is telling the truth.
Return journey: There were signs at the Jayanagar bus stand to indicate buses at I think 15 minutes intervals and the bus arrived just about 2 minutes late. The trip on the BMTC bus to the airport at 3 AM in the morning was done in 60 minutes. The lights on the road until Yelhanka were bright.., but after some time there was only darkness. BBMP needs to fix this soon as this stretch I believe is seeing many accidents. The trumpet flyover looked brillant and the rest of the road until the airport was well lit and looked the part of a International airport.
The check in was completed in 10 mins and I was near the departure gates in 15 minutes. The retail areas looked their part too. The restrooms were again clean as a whistle. This is good. But wait, the waiting area was already looking full. Yes, I think the PTB is way too small for a airport of the capital of gloabl IT outsourcing. Mr. Brunner, I think Mr.Patel is right. The capacity has to be doubled at the earliest. In fact, it should be able to cater to atleast 15 to 20 million passengers / year. This capacity should make use of the existing runway completely. Also, can we have the next PTB looking very contemporary please..? The present one does look a little like a warehouse from the outside. And please, let us have the arrivals and departures at different levels. It is more fashionable and I dare say more optimal in terms of space usage.
All in all a good airport experience. No delays, quite a clean and sparkling airport.., but the PTB is a little too small and yes, if the new PTB does not have the "wow" factor, Mr.Mallya may make some other airport the hub for KF.
nice and fair take that one
Nice write up Sandeep (why didn't you call when you were here, I have not yet forgotten your offer of help for working with SWR). After having used BIAL good many times since it opened, and having seen and heard direct comparisons with Mumbai and Hyderabad, verdict is sure out. Terminal building seems cramped, and airport could have looked better. Rest of it seems to have fallen or will fall in place. Quick pre and post flight operations, seating now available outside PTB, toilets getting expanded and probably a few more things we my not know - they seem to be listening to us. No idea about Cargo side developments over last 2 weeks though.
Sandeep, liked your enthu for BMTC Vajras. Oh, just used one two hours ago, and nothing gives me more joy than seeing people walk up and inquire about these buses at the airport. I can see that BIAL has made many see the inside of a bus for the first time. Sat in a crowded BIAS-8 today, with not even 1 seat empty! Felt so good to see people read books, newspapers or listen to their mp3s in the comforts of a clean bus.
But I observed today that buses don't realy start on their designated time. 7 pm BIAS-6 didn't even show up. And the 7:35 pm BIAS-8 started at 7-15 pm itself. Asked BMTC staff, they said the busses always leave if they get full. Well, fair enough, if there is no space left, whats the point in waiting.
RE: nice and fair take that one
RE: My BIAL experience
Another important thing I forgot to mention. Kudos to Mr. Brunner to shift all operation in one go from HAL to BIAL. Compared to what happened to the Denver airport and the T5 at London, we can say that the opening of BIAL was uneventful.
Well done!
But now, here is a deal. You build us the best PTB in the world as our T2 and we will forgive you for the PTB you have now given us.
We will also lobby and try to get the rail connection going. This will bring back the short distance travellers to BIAL!
Did AAI goof up on Landing System Glide Slope at BIA?
Aviation experts - What is the explanation for this deviation? And if it is indeed a major goofup from AAI, what is the long term impact on BIAL and HIAL?
Courtsey - The Hindu Business Line
http://www.thehindubusine...
The new airports in Bangalore and Hyderabad are claimed to be ‘world class’. To achieve that title, several requirements have to be met. While the runway and the ground facilities of the two airports seem to be of the required standard, they fall short in an important area — rapid connectivity to the city. When one looks at the airports that get selected for the top slots worldwide, the connectivity infrastructure is initiated even when the airport design is in the conceptual stage.The two airports also fail in a very important safety aspect. While the builders have done a good job as regards construction of the runway and other ancillaries, the Airports Authority of India has erred badly in the installation of the Instrument Landing System Glide Slope in both Bangalore and Hyderabad.
An aircraft coming in to land normally descends on a 3-degree glide slope. Yet , the AAI has installed the glide slope to an angle of 3.30 degree at one airport and 3.40 degrees in the ther, forcing the aircraft to descend more steeply than it needs to, that is, at 900-1000 feet per minute. As the structural limit for the landing gear (or the wheels of the aircraft) is only 600 feet per minute, pilots have to shift from the high sink rate to a rate less than 600 feet per minute just before landing with a flare manoeuvre. Any delay, either due to a judgement error or fatigue, can result in a hard landing or a tail strike.
This Glide Slope angle is steeper than the limit of 3.25 degrees set for instrument landing systems Category II or III that are used in poor visibility conditions. By taking the easy option, the Bangalore and Hyderabad airports will allow landings only when the visibility conditions are more than 550 metres.
PIL can be filed against AAI
We can write to ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organisation) about the fatal safety flaws of AAI at BIA and HIA. It would make AAI sit up and recitfy the flaws. Additionally, we can write to Central Vigilance Commission (CVC) and the Honourable Minister of Civil Aviation.
A PIL can also be filed against AAI
Devesh, BialTerminal - Your comments please.........
mcadambi,
Before we tread the path of PILs and complaints, it would be prudent to determine if this deviation is indeed a safety concern and it is out of the safety norms.
Aviation experts, Devesh, Bialterminal? Do you have anything to comment on this story?
I will hold my judgement till then.
glidescope