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HAL airport must stay: High Court
HAL Airport must remain says High Court:
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One more question
Devesh,
Its certainly very nice to see your view point on the issues. I have one question. You have said that you are concerned about runway capacity and quote 15 million per runway as BIA's limit. I have read that London's Heathrow airport handles 68 millions with just two runways. What's different? I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but shouldn't we be comparing against the best in the world? If BIA has to claim its world class, it should be able to handle that kind of traffic.
HAL...no no no
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
HAL a short term "solution"?
Welcome Mr Devesh.
Its not HAL vs BIAL really, let us look at what is it that we (common passengers) want? A simple list in order of priority:
Some may switch #2 and #3. But results from that Feedback Consulting survey done at HAL tell us that most passengers rank #2 (connectivity) over #3 (services) as the popular fear playing in their mind about BIAL (when responding to that survey) right now is 'distance'.
Thing about "choice of airports" does not figure here as its a nice to have, not a must. But the point #1 and #3 could either come from this "choice", or from our traditional government driven regulatory measures.
Retaining HAL may not really help with the choice if the split is short haul or ATRs at HAL and internationals and long hauls at BIAL. For that kind of split, I would still require a watchdog to help me with #1 and #3. BTW, who gave someone the right to decide that just because I am traveling long distance or international, my extra 1 hr (commute to BIA) isn't as valuable.
You may suggest a catchment area split where HAL could become the port for South/East Bangalore, and BIAL could be that for North/West. In that scenario though, I dread the day when HAL will again have to handle 7-8 mill + passengers. We at least have unanimity about the quality of present services at HAL. Even if a private party unlike AAI were to run HAL, space would be a constraint in providing better passenger services.
So bottom-line, I am not sure how the suggested 4 mill passengers at HAL split will work. It seems to be a short term suggestion. A long term argument will suggest levels of investment involved to upgrade HAL airport, or suggesting an airport south or west of the city.
If BIAL is using its soon-to-be monopolistic situation to be aggressive about profits, we got to pressure them. Helping define a aviation regulatory body, or defining levels of transparency in operations and finances of a PPP entity like BIAL (where government is a stakeholder) would be the long term way of doing that. Fighting with HAL as a 'tool' in hand could turn out to be short term victory.
After having seen HAL 'manage' with so little space and just one runway (after all, those folks in the survey said they can live with poor quality of service), we commoners just don't understand why BIAL with so much space will not be able to handle 15 mill passengers even if with some pressure on service quality. That is one thing making people doubt this late breaking support for HAL. And it doesn't help that most vocal HAL supporters have their residences or commercial interests in South/East Bangalore - just makes many doubt when they say that its not the BIAL connectivity issue that is driving their support for HAL.
One last, and to me, a very important point. 1) those who genuinely care about our city would put spreading Bangalore around (de-congesting) on top of the list of things they want to do for the city. 2) Residents also know that city's real problem right now is general connectivity and public transport. In the longer scheme of things, BIAL with connectivity drama around it was beginning to do positive things on both these fronts.
[Off topic, and personally, I seriously wish the energy being shown on the HAL airport issue had gone elsewhere - in solving Bangalore's real problems of unmanaged growth: quality of local governance (Kasturi Rangan), de-congestion (BMRDA's satellite plans, tier II cities), public transport (Metro's last mile connecitivy gap, BMTC, BMLTA), power, unplaned development and water]
I think we are taking this
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Devanahalli was not the first choice
Hi Santsub
Actually Devanahalli was not the first choice. It was near Bidadi. However many "interested" parties had land near the present site, and thats how the choice was made.
Praja visitors are empassioned Bangaloreans. I am sure, they would not like a major defence infrastructure to become a victim.
We also forget that Aero India show is held at Yelahanka. It is not possible to shift that to HAL airport. See how much investment is coming to Bangalore in the Aerospace sector.
Like it or not, industry is what generates income for all of us.
What will happen to Aero India. Other cities are eager for Bangalore to loose it. Lets not forget, no one in the aviation ministry is REALLY concerned about Bangalore.
With regards to capacity, see my blog, as well as other posts about unanticipated growth. Also see this graph http://picasaweb.google.c....
No one, including me, is against BIAL. Our stand is, that given this meteoric growth, why close HAL airport and go back to a situation where we are chasing demand, instead of the being ahead of the curve.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Yelahanka
In short -- the same persons who appoint military leaders -- the politicians. Talk about serious arm twisting.
If the politicians could help it, the BIAL would control all the airspace in Bangalore, and have everything its way. Only the obstinacy of HAL and Indian Air Force kept them in control of their own respective air spaces.
In fact the original tender for the airport did not allow for any "exclusivity". It was after Zurich was selected, did they "persuade" the government, during negotiations, to force closure of HAL.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Short haul lack of choice
Hi Srivathsa
Airlines are very market concious. For them aircraft are a revenue earner, and planes earn revenue when flying at least 60% full.
There is enough traffic from all over Bangalore city. They will choose routes as long as there is demand.
When BIAL was scheduled to open Mar 30, bookings on short haul sectors fell by 35%. Many airlines were on the verge of announcing closure of flights from Bangalore, and shifting those aircraft to Chennai and other routes.
Just out of curiosity, are you based in Bangalore right now ?
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
A delayed response for Paanwallaa
Let me introduce myself, Am Paanwallaa and represent the aam janta with a thinking cap.
Nice to meet you. I am Devesh Agarwal. My profile in on my blog, which I invite you to visit. If you read ALL the articles they may answer most if not all of your questions.
Paanwalla: Why Nov 2007 can some one enlighten me as to why such a drastic reversal of faith.
Air traffic in Bangalore took off only in late 2004, and at a pace, no infrastructure project, including BIAL to keep pace with. See this graph. http://picasaweb.google.c.... We all realised only in middle 2007, that BIAL would fall short. Something BIAL has conveniently hidden from Bangalore all the time. The capacity was expanded TWICE not because BIAL chose to, but because of pressure from Min of Civil Aviation under pressure from all of us in Industry.
Oh and by the way, check this graph http://picasaweb.google.c...
This is derived from a meeting of BIAL with IATA (International Air Transport Association). This also shows BIAL falling short on capacity, and remember these are BIAL projections.
Paanwalla: At what cost? At the cost oh having both the airports being unfeasible to operate there by resulting in poor maintainance etc etc and then saying I told you so? (tut tut tut)
If BIAL was feasible at 3.8 million (yes BIAL downgraded its capacity from 4.6 million AFTER signing the contract), suddenly how come it has become unfeasible at 10 million.
Paanwalla: stop stop stop……… where did you get this number of 10.5 mn ?
See the graph that I linked earlier. These are official Airports Authority of India figures. As I said, the growth in the 36 months that BIAL was being constructed was 255%.
HAL in fact had an APRON capacity problem, thanks to all the people who have encroached on to the airport from the Murgeshpalya, Wind Tunnel Road side. Later on, under pressure from Industry groups, HAL struck a deal with Kingfisher and Jet to finance construction of additional aprons and that explains the spurt in traffic thanks to release of pent up demand.Ok wait I forgot to mention Bangalore HAL airport was designed to handle 3.6mn and possibly now handing about 7-8mn passengers even that’s 222% why don’t you apply the same logic to BIAL.
You are confusing the TERMINAL capacity, which incidentally is owned and operated by AAI (the stakeholders of BIAL), with the runway capacity which is owned and operated by HAL (who incidentally are regarded as the most efficient air traffic controllers in India). HAL runway capacity is 11mn and the fact that Bangalore will do 10.7mn this year shows it to be true.
HAL and BIAL is what in real estate is called Gow Mukha and Singha Mukha. HAL has an under-capacity terminal matching its runway. BIAL has an opposite problem. The terminal is large enough, not the runway.
For a technical understanding of runway capacity please read my blog article http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Paanwalla: This info is a misrepresentation and skewed logic.
Sorry, but you are not well informed. Take the initiative to read my ENTIRE blog with an open mind, it might prompt you to change your perspective.
Just for your information, BIAL runway is already over capacity as per BIAL's own production file. Check my blog article http://deveshagarwal.blog....
Mr R Ravichander : And spending Rs 4000 crores of public money on a high speed rail link from KSCA for a Rs. 2220 crores airport project is questionable
Paanwalla: Why the heck are you talking of aam aadmi now?? Is this the next tactic to get the Metro outta steam?
I would much rather spend those 4000 crores on Namma Metro, Bus Stations, and Railway stations so that ALL of us in Bangalore benefit, not just travellers to the airport.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
narayan
Contract re-negotiated
Actually for your information, BIAL has re-negotiated not once, but TWICE after signing. Of course to its benefit.
Please read my article http://deveshagarwal.blog....
The 2nd runway will take at least 3 years to construct. If constructed it will be less than 3 miles away from Yelahanka air force base, which apart from being THE training centre ALL INDIA for Indian Air Force transport pilots, is host to Aero India. Forget the air shows, but see the amount of business that comes in to our city becuase of it.
Aerospace is going to be the next wave in Bangalore after IT.
Do take the time to read my article http://deveshagarwal.blog....
In my humble opinion, the entire Government machinery needs to be awakened by a swift kick. In Bangalore, our accomodating nature is being abused to the point of breaking.
Just for your information, the budget passed by the Central government (read Congress), took ALL the money collected in Bangalore by taxes, and sent it OUT of Bangalore. Not one paisa was allocated to the development of Bangalore. It's not just Deve Gowda and his ilk who are playing the Rural vs. Urban game.
Previously, Bangalore was given less than 3% of its total tax collections as allocation. 97% was re-distributed out.
Makes me sick.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
The real capacity of BIAL
Hi Navshot
Thanks for the positive response. Though an observer of Bangalore aviation for over 15 years, I have recently taken to blogging. I have written extensively on BIA and other related topics. Please do visit my blog. If you have the time read ALL the articles, or you can RSS link, or even subscribe by mail.
Some articles I can suggest.
http://deveshagarwal.blog....
http://deveshagarwal.blog....
http://deveshagarwal.blog....
An airport, is a highly integrated, and well choreographed ballet. It starts from the terminal, and extends to international airspace.
Runway capacity is measured in ATMs (Air Traffic Movements i.e. a landing or a take-off). The number of ATMs determines passengers.
London Heathrow is the ONLY airport in the world to handle more than 50 million passengers, with 2 runways. Incidentally, I wrote about Heathrow's T5 fiasco. Chec out http://deveshagarwal.blog....
There are many reasons for Heathrow's performance. It has only 11% domestic traffic. Domestic flights are typically small aircraft, which occupy the same amount of time slot on the runway, but carry fewer passengers. International flights on the other hand are larger aircraft. Even after massive international traffic growth post BIAL launch, Bangalore will have 78% domestic flights.
Such a high percentage of international flights, also allows the load to be spread across the day, since airlines want arrivals to be at the start or end of the day, and also integrate in to their global network especially in terms of transits. That is why you observe most international flights out of India in the night. See the graph in my article http://deveshagarwal.blog.... It will show the skewed nature of Bangalore traffic. Also we should not forget, London has 4 other airports. City, Gatwick, Stanstead and Luton, which handle the smaller flights, and the peak hour loads.
Also the UK CAA, allows for less seperation in comparison to India's DGCA. Right now the requirement is 5 miles which is about 2 minutes. This applies to BIAL also. Which is why their own declared limit is 30 ATMs per hour. This allows for more flights per hour on the same runway.
Another is air space automation. Search Wikipedia for SID (Standard Instrument Departure) and STAR (Standard Terminal Arrival Route). These massively reduce work load for ATC (Air Traffic Controllers) and allow for additional capacity.
Then comes the actual runway infrastructure. Heathrow has high intensity centre and edge lighting, and ILS CAT 3. I forget if is 3A 3B or 3C. I think it is 3B or 3C. Bangalore will be only ILS CAT 1. Bangalore does not have fog problems like London so a Cat 1 will just about suffice. If there is fog, we will have to grin and bear it.
If you recall the one Terminal 5 or T5 at Heathrow is 13.76 times bigger than whole of BIAL in financial outlay. They use fully automated baggage sorting and make up systems that deliver baggage right to the aircraft. BIAL does not. In fact internally, we have reports that the baggage make up area at BIAL is so small that it can only handle 2~3 international Jumbo jets at a time.
I have cut back my flights now, but there was a time in'90s I was on a flight every 2 days, and I did about 200 international flights a year.
BIAL is definitely progress for India and Bangalore, but to call BIAL world class? Now that is a hoot.
Read my article http://deveshagarwal.blog....
It will be an eye opener.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
HAL Short Term solution
Hello Silkboard and Narayan
Welcome Mr Devesh.
Please just plain Devesh.
Absolutely correct. In fact, in an OAG (Official Airline Guide - the definitive resource on air travel) report, India's Low Cost Carriers (Airlines) LCCs were credited with leading the LCC driven global air travel boom. Today less than 1% of India's population travels by air. Something which can only increase with low TOTAL cost.
Retaining HAL may not really help with the choice if the split is short haul or ATRs at HAL and internationals and long hauls at BIAL. For that kind of split, I would still require a watchdog to help me with #1 and #3. BTW, who gave someone the right to decide that just because I am traveling long distance or international, my extra 1 hr (commute to BIA) isn't as valuable.
You may suggest a catchment area split where HAL could become the port for South/East Bangalore, and BIAL could be that for North/West. In that scenario though, I dread the day when HAL will again have to handle 7-8 mill + passengers. We at least have unanimity about the quality of present services at HAL. Even if a private party unlike AAI were to run HAL, space would be a constraint in providing better passenger services.
The proposed Airport Regulatory Authority bill is pending in parliament. We should force it through. As citizens we should flood the office of the Chairman of the Parliamentary Transport Committee. Check my article http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/04/bial-contract-re-negotiation-time-for.html for contact details of Shri Sitaram Yechury. (Ironic isn't it. :) Me a hard core economic right winger, asking you to right to the stalwart of the Communist party).
I fully agree with you. My time, your time, our time, is all equally valuable. The productivity of our entire city is affected by the long commutes we are enduring daily.
We also forget that the international terminal will open up once all international flights shift. The international terminal is a huge area which is only used at night, so we find the domestic terminal overcrowded. Both terminals together will give us at least 6 to 7 million capacity.
I had actually proposed a market bidding system for slots at HAL. We commence HAL with 3 million passengers cap. Let airlines bid for the capacity slots. Give this money to BIAL as compensation. Keep adding 0.5 million to the cap every year. and in the mean time force AAI to upgrade the infrastructure. If they do not perform get AAI out of HAL airport and get someone else to run the terminal, may be even BIAL.
So bottom-line, I am not sure how the suggested 4 mill passengers at HAL split will work. It seems to be a short term suggestion. A long term argument will suggest levels of investment involved to upgrade HAL airport, or suggesting an airport south or west of the city.
In fact, we need to start talking of a new third airport. The global trend is away from large single airport cities to cities with smaller multiple airports. Large airports are required only in cities with very high transit traffic. Atlanta Hartsfield airport is an example. It has over 81% transit traffic. Bangalore is less than 10%. Check this figure. http://picasaweb.google.com/dev.agarwal/BIALGraphs/photo#5191442838267124562.
After having seen HAL 'manage' with so little space and just one runway (after all, those folks in the survey said they can live with poor quality of service), we commoners just don't understand why BIAL with so much space will not be able to handle 15 mill passengers even if with some pressure on service quality.
I have commented extensively on this. The issue is not terminal capacity, but runway capacity. Please visit my blog. I am sure it will make interesting reading. http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/03/real-capacity-of-bengaluru.html
That is one thing making people doubt this late breaking support for HAL. And it doesn't help that most vocal HAL supporters have their residences or commercial interests in South/East Bangalore - just makes many doubt when they say that its not the BIAL connectivity issue that is driving their support for HAL.
While I understand your cyncism, I can tell you, ALL the industry chambers in Bangalore are involved in Bangalore City Connect, and these are all over Bangalore. The issue is capacity, choice and competition, not location. Please check my article http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com/2008/04/perils-of-pioneering-bangalores-loss-of.html.
If you look at it closely, it is the South and East industry that flies overseas, or long distance intra-India the most. They will still have to commute.
We also have completely overlooked cargo. BIAL is just not ready, and Bangalore's industry is already shifting its cargo operations to Chennai. But that's another story.
One last, and to me, a very important point. 1) those who genuinely care about our city would put spreading Bangalore around (de-congesting) on top of the list of things they want to do for the city. 2) Residents also know that city's real problem right now is general connectivity and public transport. In the longer scheme of things, BIAL with connectivity drama around it was beginning to do positive things on both these fronts.
People are addressing it. We have proposed a 3 track approach. The BTTI proposed to government is focussed on road transport of whole Bangalore. Please visit http://www.cityconnect.in.
[Off topic, and personally, I seriously wish the energy being shown on the HAL airport issue had gone elsewhere - in solving Bangalore's real problems of unmanaged growth: quality of local governance (Kasturi Rangan), de-congestion (BMRDA's satellite plans, tier II cities), public transport (Metro's last mile connecitivy gap, BMTC, BMLTA), power, unplaned development and water]
The Centre for Public Policy is doing a great job. We all talk to each other, and we all put our meagre resources to maximum use depending on our skills and sphere of influence.
Right now, I am thinking of this old movie called Network. A TV journalist gets the whole New York City to start screaming "I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THIS, AND I AM NOT WILLING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE".
We need to put Urban Planning back on the agenda of political parties.
How many visitors of Praja truly put their money where their mouth (or in this case keyboard) is ? Get involved with Residents Associations. Offer to become a Warden with the Traffic Police.
As a student in Bishop Cottons, I served in the Student Association for Road Safety from 6th standard till 10th. We used to control the traffic outside our school from 8AM-9AM and then when school left. If we reported a traffic offense, the court fine used to be minimum double of the regular fine.
I think we Bangaloreans need to be less accomodating and tell our officials "I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THIS, AND I AM NOT WILLING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE".
Our chance comes on May 10th, and later that night BIAL takes off. :)
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blogspot.com
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh uvaacha!
//Me a hard core economic right winger, asking you to right to the stalwart of the Communist party).//
Unfortunately that is the status of the right wing in India. Although they are pro-industry, they are yet to be harsh on cartels and anti-competitive forces.
Former head of IIM-B on BIAL vs HAL
Retain HAL Airport
Sir, — The authorities concerned should ensure that the HAL Airport is retained for short-haul operations. Passengers using HAL Airport will gladly pay Rs. 300 a ticket to be passed on to BIAL for compensating it for the loss of revenue. All segments of society will benefit. BIAL will be a viable airport. They can use this spare capacity to meet the increased traffic projected. Passengers will save Rs. 500 a journey for going to Devanahalli besides the travel time. Traffic congestion, pollution and fuel consumption can also be reduced.
N.S. Ramaswamy,
Bangalore
http://www.hindu.com/2008...
My note: Mr N. S. Ramaswamy was the former head of IIM-B and a Padma awardee.
no air shows at yelahanka?
This was one of the most saddening part for me..bangalore has been the epicenter of aerospace developments with HAL/NAL/ADA on the task much before the IT cos current crowd was even born..
And the best we could do was plan an airport right next to yelahanka? very unfortunate!
Air show 'Aero India' has been a primier air show in the world.. kids and elders flock to get amazed by the sonic boom of the mig's and sukhoi's..so we built n airport to shut this down?
bial and hal
aero india @ hal?
navigational equipment
runway vs runway
Here's my take on it: The BIAL runway has Rapid Exits - something HAL doesnt have. The DGCA is relaxing the air seperation between planes from 5 to 3 Nautical Miles (not to sure about the nos.)
Hence this runway can eventually do the same as Mumbai (which I hear still has 1 runway) Ok, when we start on May 11th BIAL is going to run full house but not exceed that!... Why not give HAL a break and re-vamp it?...
As bangaloreans we must say, "I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THIS, AND I AM NOT WILLING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE". ---- say that to the same service HAL offers!
And please Devesh - why not consider my point: let HAL be run by BIAL as a second airport?
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Many assumptions on capacity not being questioned
Runway capacity depends on 3 things - no of runways, # of aircrafts that can take off and land each hour, size of aircraft.
There is some talk starting on reducing horizontal separation for landing aircraft to 3 km vs. 8km today. See this link, I am trying to find the link that actually mentioned numbers.
For taking off aircraft, I believe (am not an expert) it depends on the type of aircraft. The wake (downstream turbulence) from a 747 can be 4 km and can cause the aircraft behind to lose lift and control and crash! But this is not an immediate bottleneck and is a physical constraint (depends on the laws of physics - no evidence of violation over many centuries :))
Also, there seems to be an implicit assumption that even as air traffic in India grows, we will still be using planes with 72 - 150 seats (ATR to A320s/737s). I have flown in a 777 (275 capacity) from Singapore to KL (250km). As traffic increases along specific corridors, it becomes possible to deploy bigger aircraft without compromising frequency. The mix of the aircraft can change. This is not being factored.
Each runway of BIAL could potentially handle 20 million or more depending on the assumptions used.
Why should a runway take 2-3 years to complete? Lead times are not set in stone and depend on money and resources (with physical constraints as the ultimate barrier - concrete takes x days to cure and no money can speed it up).
On Devesh's point on HAL's capacity increasing to 6-7 million by opening the int terminal to domestic traffic, what is the 3.6 million capacity then?
Srivathsa
Devesh - yes I am based in Bangalore now.
Drive safe. It is not just the car maker which can recall its product.
Who is "we" ?
Devesh sir, I really appreciate your time and fact based reply to these comments. I had one small question for you though.
If you could clarify, who exactly is "we" that you refer to (working with government agencies) a couple of times. Is "we" an elected body? Is "we" a certified group of "urban planners"?
I am curious to know how exactly this industrialist lobby groups work? Do you (the "we") provide the expertise yourself, or do you connect the "expertise" to the government bodies? In that case, what is the process that you or the government takes to ensure that the "expertise" used was adequate, impartial, and worthy. As I understand this (please pardon my ignorance), there is no bidding happening to buy or provide expertise, there may not be enough representation happening from "all" stakeholders of the city.
As an ordinary, concerned, but partly enlightened citizen (not my fault, I am just not told enough about things that are done to my city), this method of working with the governments seems a little extra constitutional and overly 'industry' centric.
Please, I am not trying to be a left winger or populist here, and my stand on HAL is - keep it open if stats warrant it, but let us all be clear on the long term implications. So nothing prejudiced or personal, but just wanted to understand this "we", and the machanics of how the "we" works. cheers.
The REAL capacity of BIAL
Hi TS
Thanks for taking the time to visit my blog.
Airport capacity is a factor of many things. I do not know if you have read my article http://deveshagarwal.blog..., and my article http://deveshagarwal.blog....
These get in to the technical aspects of BIAL capacity, and in fact use Mumbai as a base for computing BIAL capacity. Mumbai in fact is not a good representative base, but is the closest. Mumbai has a significantly higher percentage of international traffic i.e. larger planes more passenger per flight. This is important becuase each flight takes up the same time slot on the runway. Second, Mumbai ATCs are the most senior and experienced of AAI controllers, therefore their efficiency will be significantly higher than BIAL's AAI ATC. Third, Mumbai is not constrained by various airspace. Check the airmap of Bangalore in my "Real Capacity" article.
Even ignoring all these, giving BIAL maximum benefit of the doubt, the capacity per runway works out to 15.22 million.
Actually, I would love to meet you and the other subscribers of Praja, and make a detailed presentation, and have an interaction. I wonder how we can facilitate this ?
A crucial economic aspect of air traffic is that it grows at a rate of 2x - 2.5x the rate of economic growth. This is a global formula endorsed by IATA and ICAO. In its meeting with IATA, BIAL has projected an air traffic growth rate of only 12.25%, implying an economic growth of only 6% for Bangalore, when FinMin is talking 7%+ for the nation as a whole.
Now either BIAL know something about Bangalore's economy that we don't, or their assumptions are just plain wrong. Check out this graph http://picasaweb.google.c...
Also please read this story http://deveshagarwal.blog....
Another MAJOR area of concern is cargo. I am sure that most Praja visitors are unaware of the fact that over 50% of Bangalore's cargo is carried by air. Rs. 50,000 Cr. Like it or not, industry and commerce are an integral part of any city's ecosystem.
The site was chosen in full consultation with BIAL. Yelahanka was known, but BIAL had its master plan rammed down the throats of Indian Air Force and Bangalore, by GoI and GoK.
Check out my article http://deveshagarwal.blog.... A Rs. 300 Crore test facility is being shifted to accomodate BIAL. That is OUR money that is being squandered. Someone should be held accountable for this needless expense.
I have detailed the land issues in my article http://deveshagarwal.blog....
Just for your information, the full 4000 acres is sold to BIAL, but I am not challenging the land itself, rather what is being done of the land i.e. use, and comparing the amount of land to air traffic.
The regulation of BIAL will only come with the appointment of the AERA, and that is a while away.
Let us not forget, once again working piece of infrastructure, be it a factory or an airport terminal, is shut, degredation begins immediately. To re-activate an airport is a 1 year process.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Subscribe to my feed http://feeds.feedburner.c...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
HAL & BIAL: Why hurry?
Devesh,
Thanks for taking your time to share your views in detail. That really helps.
However, I see there are two completely orthogonal vectors of your argument:
1. Runway capacity: You say runway capacity would be reached on day 1 at BIA, hence HAL should be retained.
2. Competition: On the other hand, You say you want competition and hence HAL should be there.
Now, which one is it? Both? If so, to mitigate runway capacity, HAL has to complement BIA (and not compete), which contradicts point 2.
So is it compete or complement? I'm a bit confused. Earlier I used to read that those who wanted HAL wanted it to complement BIA. Now, if it has to compete in true sense, then it should compete for the following (leaving the connectivity, as its agreed that its not a real issue):
1. International flights
2. Domestic long hawl
3. Domestic short hawl
4. Services to airlines/end users
As s_yajaman rightly pointed out, there won't be true competition from end-user stand point. There would not be real choices to the end user. Given the destination, time of travel and airline, the airport for end-user is fixed. There won't be a situation where a flight starts from HAL and stops over at BIA. So, in effect, there is no real choice for end user. On the other hand, the two airports would have to compete for the airlines. There you go, it could be that the airlines which stand to benefit and not the end user.
This means, its only the real runway capacity that should dictate, if at all, if HAL has to be retained.
Now, lets look at it objectively. Here, we have a problem. Runway capacity at BIA. Lets keep that as the primary issue. Retaining/re-opening HAL is only one of the solutions. While, its good to suggest a solution, its better to have options. What if state/cetre/AAI doesn't want to keep HAL open? What if SC strikes down to keep HAL open? What are the options? I'm sure there are other options. Having only Plan A is not good. We need to have Plan A, Plan B and if possible Plan C. We should see from that angle and not just push HAL. Having HAL as an option to solve a real issue is one thing and pushing HAL citing issues is totally different thing.
Lastly, I guess we all agree that agrument to retain HAL has come at the 11th hour. Lets not hurry. Ultimately running HAL could be the right solution, based on whatever technical details. But it need not be rushed into. What's the hurry? Lets analyze in detail, argue and aim for a more permanent solution. It could mean that HAL would be out of service for a few months. So what? Why are we thinking that its now or never? If, based on technical aspects, it is decided that BIA can't handle that much of traffic, the system (including law) should and will take care of that. Lets have faith in our system.
On the other hand, if we want to hurry into deciding to keep/close HAL now, it gives a feeling that there is a vested interest/political inclination to it, given that elections are round the corner.
Aero India at HAL
Hi TS
In short -- safety. Demonstration flying is always the riskiest form of flying next to initial test flights, because the pilots take the aircraft to the very edge of the envelope.
Imagine an Engine flameout. The plane will come down on the heads of Indiranagar, Domlur, Inner Ring Road Tech Park, Koramangala, Outer Ring Road tech parks. Take your choice :))
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Right Winger
Unfortunately that is the status of the right wing in India. Although they are pro-industry, they are yet to be harsh on cartels and anti-competitive forces.
Well here you have a right winger who is harsh on cartels and anti-competitive forces, and is getting pounced on for it. :))
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Glory to Prof. Ramaswamy
This is exactly my proposal as made back in October 2007. The only difference was that instead of a fixed fee, I proposed making airlines bid for the slots, pay that bid amount to BIAL, and let airlines recover their bid amount in the form of higher air fares.
Market forces at work all the way.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
HAL issues
Hi Narayan
We have had dog his and bird hits, and thankfully the planes have made it back to the airport - how can you justify planes landing over 8 million people's heads when such "animal hits" have proven possible
This is a smear statement. Bird hits are a regular feature at almost all airports, and even BIAL has a dog problem. These happen in the course of operations. In fact BIAL has a snake problem. By that measure no airport in the world will function. :))
Noise pollution is an issue for all airports. Especially when layouts develop AFTER the airport is developed and then the residents start complaining.
BIAL should want to run the AAI terminal, and AAI should be willing to let BIAL run the terminal. Very frankly, the privatisation of AAI and separation of its operational and regulatory roles, will have a far more positive effect.
What is important is first everyone agreeing to the concept of two airports. The details can be thrashed out. Ultimately market forces will rule.
I received this comment on my blog and I feel it is very appropriate here.
There is more than enough commerce in Bangalore to support another airport. Speeding up travel of people and products only improves an economy.The market place, consumers and producers, determine usage. Government can implement rules of conduct (procedures) but no one, including the self-proclaimed smartest people in the world, often found working in government, can accurately predict a marketplace. The market place determines itself.
If consumers of airport services do not find the airport a convenient and profitable place to do business, it will not be used.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh, Lets agree that
Devesh,
Lets agree that above incidents which are possible in Aero-India shows, are also possible with Commercial Airliners - the likelyhood is one in a million or even less, but then it is possible. A bird hit, an engine failure or pilot error can lead a disaster to a catastrophe due to the population around the airport.
So - Say we keep HAL airport open only for Turbo props/ATRs, this way the noise pollution is less, and "risk"level is reduced because they take ress runway, and hence have more bandwidht etc etc...
Please note the only airlines that have ATR's/Smaller aircrafts are Kingfisher/Deccan, Jet & Indian.So HOW ON EARTH DOES THIS BENEFIT LOW COST AIRLINES? what about Spicejet, Indigo, GoAir, and the others entering the market? One of the arguments to keep HAL open was that low cost airlines are burdoned by BIAL.
OK, so say you restrict the flight by distance (you say a flight of 1000kms or less can land at HAL airport (Code C aircrafts). Now, what if the flight is Bangalore > hyderabad > Delhi! So technically you have a delhi flight taking of from HAL? What if the flight is Bombay > bangalore > Chennai, will it land at HAL on the way to chennai and at BIAL on the way back?
Now say you do not allow non-direct flights and you only allow point to point flights (which I am not sure you can do legally). Again, this works against low cost airlines as their flights are always multi destination (more economical)
Will HAL be an option only for Full service airlines? In which case the logic of keeping HAL open so that people dont "spend" more on flights is viable anymore..
I really would like to hear your take on this?
Thanks Narayan
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
w.r.t noise pollution
"Noise pollution is an issue for all airports. Especially when layouts develop AFTER the airport is developed and then the residents start complaining."
At heathrow, there are time restrictions on night landings, as it disturbs peoples sleeps. What makes them more qualfiable for a quiet nights sleep than us?
Yes Laws have been violated and we didnt do anything about it. But now you can't move people out of there or expect them to suffer.
We have a new airport, with restricted construction around, let us not repeat the same mistakes, let us enforce the laws, so we ourselves dont suffer in the end.
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Collective response to TS, Narayan and Srivasthsa
Since all your comments are reasonably similar, I thought I will respond collectively. I hope you do not mind.
The current separation requirements of 5nm (9km) which translates to 2 minutes, and hence the 30 flights per hour. There is a school of thought at AAI to reduce this to 3nm and therefore increase movements to 45 per hour. However, this is just entering the radar screen of DGCA the actual controller of flight safety rules in India, and it will be quite a while before it is implemented. Even then it will be on a airport to airport basis, keeping in view, certain precautions (like multiple redundant UPS, and ATC experience). So let us not count our chickens just yet. The concept is not yet even an egg.
With regards to B777 or Medium Twin Aisle Aircraft, this goes against the grain of LCCs who want only 1 type of aircraft. This is the momentum gathering pace globally. Smaller aircraft more frequent service. SQ flies B777 because that is all they have. The are the world's largest operator of B777. MH by contrast flies B737 on the same SIN-KUL, SIN-PEN routes. If you see the full story of TOI, I quote a part of it.
"A twin aisle plane should fly for 16 hours daily to break even, something that's possible on international routes. On domestic sector with about two hour flying duration and a turnaround time of an hour, it can't do more than 10 to 11 hours. We recognise the issues and have deployed our bigger Boeing 737-900 that can seat 212 passengers instead of 189 in 737-800 for metro flights out of Mumbai," said Siddhanta Sharma, SpiceJet executive chairman.
Airlines also point out that instead of asking for financially unviable option of bigger planes, MIAL should cut down on the number of small aircraft — both private and regional jets.
If you observe our proposals, this is exactly what we are recommending for Bangalore. Mumbai and Delhi do not have a 2nd airport option, but we do.
In response to Rapid Exits (RE), I have assumed the maximum 550 ATMs per day as recommended by IATA, for a 4 RE runway (2 RE in each runway direction), even though BIAL has not fully implemented REs on Rwy 09, only on 27.
Runways are very expensive propositions. They are also many meters thick, not like a road. They take time for earth to settle and therefore construct. Ask HAL. They contracted the taxiways to another government owned company NBCC, and NBCC screwed up the project big time, but political intervention is preventing HAL from getting corrective action from NBCC or any other company. Additionally Siemens and other promoters do not want to invest more money in BIAL. That is why they are wanting such high UDF. They want to earn the Rs. 2500 Crore back which they will use to finance the second expansion.
The figure of 3.6 million is the old capacity of the airport, prior to terminal and apron expansion. Those of us who have flown internationally, know how big the international departure area is. Imagine putting that to work domestically, where there are more flights throughout the day.
At both HAL and BIAL, it is AAI who is responsible for the navigational equipment. Except in HAL case, the ATC is under HAL control. At other airports it is AAI.
Narayan, Mumbai uses 2 runways not 1. Please read my story http://deveshagarwal.blog... for a detailed and may be very technical insight.
PS : Why don't Praja visitors visit my blog and place some comments there. Unlike most blogs, I post ALL comments (except offensive ones).
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
New -Runways
Devesh Sir!
Here is what I think. If the stakeholders of BIAL and GoK, AAI and DGCA made a mistake in selecting a land that is so close to Yelahanka Airforce - there is still a work around. The current Runway built by BIAL is to the north of the Airport. Can we have a remote runway built to the north of the airport too? I am sure they can instead build runways far away from Yelahanka Airbase and put a commuter system in place so that people can use trains to go to the gates and back. or planes can taxi in to the airport terminal area from remote landings..
If BIAL was making a mistake why didnt we stop them in the firstplace when they published their plan? Didnt we know Yelahanka was close to the airport? they did have their 2nd runway shown in the masterplan.. - Bottomline is whats the truth?
Devesh, Thanks for your
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
w.r.t moving Yelahanka Airbase
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
excellent idea for
Welcome Devesh
Hi Devesh
Hearty welcome to the PRAJA fraternity.
While Civil Aviation issues have currently got highlighted with the BIAL - HAL debate, PRAJA's bigger focus, I am sure I have the permission of the other members to say, is on other equally important issues, and to be also politically correct - ones related to the aam aadmi. Our thinking very broadly is outlined in an earlier blog, link to which is given below:
http://bangalore.praja.in...
On two of these - key infrastructural areas of Public bus transport services and Power, I would like to make presentations to your members. For more on me, you may visit my personal blog-site www.muralidharrao.blogspo....
I will be grateful for your response.
Regards, Muralidhar Rao
We is all of us - residents of Bangalore
Dear SB
Firstly, please, is just Devesh. I have not been knighted by the Queen to deserve the title Sir, :))
In my posts I use WE to refer to all of us. Sometimes Industry, sometimes a group of individuals, but what it boils down to is - Bangaloreans.
Industry bodies are set up for the benefit of its members, and each member brings a different set of expertise to the Chamber. It could be professional expertise, it could be a network, it could be money. You may consider it extra constitutional, but if you see, residents associations beat back the Sakrama scheme.
I still remember back in 2004/5. I have spent many nights at HAL airport to study in detail how an airport works. Many of us have seen just the front end, and do not appreciate the effort that goes on in the back. Just as an example, we all complain about the lousy facilities at HAL airport. However, and I would ask for honest feedback, let us compare how long it takes to get domestic baggage from our flight. Bangalore is one of the best. Delhi and Mumbai, despite being the "premiere" airports in India are the worst.
After the study, we roped in a Past President of the Chamber who is an expert in HR, and another member who headed the entire support operations for Unilever from their Bangalore support centre, for his expertise in process.
We prepared an action plan for AAI Bangalore to analyse and improve. Guess what, the poor folks in Bangalore were eager, but got shot down by the seniors in Delhi.
You are right, sometimes, when our Chamber does not have the expertise, we go outside and get it. We sometimes fund it. Yes, the motives are selfish, but then, all motives are. However, we do get things done.
The improvements to the terminal were funded because my report was presented to Shri Praful Patel in Feb 2005, by a whole group of Presidents of the Chambers, along with State ministers. Sure we (industry bodies) want improvements in the airport, but the effort is for Bangalore as a whole along with ourselves.
A quote that I can think of. "Decisions are made by those who show up". We have to learn to participate, to use RTI, to be ever vigilant and safeguard our interests.
With regards to HAL, if you have any friends there, you will find out that I have never let up on them as well. I have a single point agenda. The best for Bangalore. I personally fly only long distance even within India. Retaining HAL airport does not benefit me specifically.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
The details if HAL stays open
Hi Narayan
I honestly do not have these details. I am not the Air Czar of Bangalore, nor is it my intention to become one.
The goal first is to create a situation where BIAL comes to the table with an open mind to have an honest discussion. Let BIAL, HAL, and the airlines work things out.
At my Infrastructure committee meeting of the Chamber, I invited the Airline Operators Committee. About 30 airlines, domestic and international showed up, and gave the entire committee a lot of gyan, for which we are grateful. Bottom line, given the ultra competitive scenario today, airlines will not allow just a select group of airlines to have the benefit.
Believe you me, when I say, many people of extreme influence, tried their level best to talk to all the powers that are, and arrive at an amicable solution. Bottom line, BIAL just refused.
This is purely my opinion, but I feel that Mr. Brunner, recognises the reality of the situation. Despite being a foreigner, he has been in Bangalore since the start of the project, and knows the ground realities. BIAL has no Indians in management cadre (at least not on their website), and the major funder Siemens, is German, and they may be acting with typical Teutonic doggedness, forcing BIAL to stand its ground.
When I talk about a bidding system, it is with market forces in mind. The market determines itself. Today we have Kingfisher with its premium cost-service model, operating side by side with Deccan with its low cost model. Airlines are run by smart people, and they will figure it out in terms of routes and economics. It is when self-proclaimed "smart people" try to interject and impose a fixed fee or something like that, things start breaking down.
Please remember, many airlines are talking about curtailing their flights to Bangalore, if the flight is not economically viable. That is the double edged nature of private organisations compared to governmental. Air India will still fly an uneconomic flight to keep the Netas and Babus happy, but not the private carriers. There is no way HAL can become a high cost airport. Airlines will just move their aircraft away from Bangalore, and we all will be the loosers.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
2nd BIAL runway to the north
Hi Santsub
The problem is that international aviation safety norms dictate a minimum 1nm horizontal separation between two parallel runways. BIAL has no land to the north. Also there are major highways, so south is the only option.
All these impediments were known, and still Devanahalli was chosen. Why ? Try to wade through the benami maze and see who all actually owned land there, bought at less than Rs. 1 per sft and now worth Rs. 2000 per sft, and you have your answer.
Our money will be squandered just to benefit the few. We will be placated by the sight of a new "world class" airport.
There is an old Urdu saying - Guldastah Dikha Ke, neeche say dastah gul kar dethe hain. (Show you a bouquet of flowers, while from below steal away the table).
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Yelahanka AFB
Narayan
The 300 Cr facility I talked about was the DRDO testing facility already in Kolar and already being shifted. Who is going to pay for this ? Why should you and I pay for a shift dictated by BIA ? Should BIAL not be made to pay ?
Read my article http://deveshagarwal.blog....
Yelahanka AFB investment is in excess of Rs. 1000 Cr. Shifting a base is one thing. What about the IAF personnel ? What about their families ? Already the Armed Forces are loosing personnel to private service.
We are willing to squander our money and banish the defenders of India, so that some foreign company, and we few airport users are not inconvenienced ?
Sorry, I may not be from an Armed Forces family, but I deeply cherish their service and sacrifice. Not that I am challenging your patriotism, but I do not trust the netas.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh, i respect your
Devesh, i respect your respect towards the Armed Forces, Air Force etc.
But lets look at it from this prespective - most of the military installations in Bengalooru were in place during World War II, with some expansion after independence.
But post liberalisation, we need to take a different look. The world is different now and our good friend to the west of Amritsar is not going to attack us!
It is best if we shift a lot of the military installations from inside the City to the outskirts or other smaller cities such as Tumkur et al.
No Hurry...
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
Relocating Yelahanka AFB
But post liberalisation, we need to take a different look. The world is different now and our good friend to the west of Amritsar is not going to attack us!
Agreed on this point. It will be our Bhai Bhai "friend" to the North East who will. The former BBC correspondent Humphrey Hawksley has written two excellent books which are fiction based on today's ground realities. Dragon Strike and Dragon Fire (or something like that).
It is best if we shift a lot of the military installations from inside the City to the outskirts or other smaller cities such as Tumkur et al.
The point I was trying to make was, the Armed Forces are having a terrible retention problem, across the ranks, but most especially in the junior officer ranks and non-commissioned ranks i.e. the future. They are leaving the forces, or not joining at all. An Air Force base is not just runways and buildings, but living families, just like you and I.
Additionally, we are not appreciating the revenue that is brought in to the city or the local area by Yelahanka AFB. The armed forces families spend money which benefits the local economy within Yelahanka itself. What will happen to the local vendors of tea, vegetables, and other sundries ?
At a larger scale, Aero India brings in Crores of business not by the Air Show itself, but all the side deals.
In the aviation business there is a concept called offsets. For every crore spent by India on buying a plane (military or civilian), India gets about 40% of business in the form of offsets. These can be in the form of exports of any commodity, but mostly in the aerospace segments, like components and services. Which explains the recent spurt in investments by Airbus and Boeing.
At what point do we say enough is enough. In mean this with full respect, but by your thinking, the government then, should have the instant right to take away anyone's property, home or office or factory, because any infrastructure project is for the betterment of society. Projects would move at lightning speed then :))
Yes, an international airport is very much required, but at what cost direct and indirect.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Broad Manifesto - Decongestion through Integration
Hello Muralidhar
With regards to addressing the members of the Bangalore Chamber of Industry and Commerce, I propose you should address a letter detailing your proposal to the President Mr. John Panikar. The Chamber website www.bcic.org.in will give you the contact details.
We have the CAF as part of our Infrastructure committee which I am heading this year. I will ask the Secretariat to invite you to the next meeting. If you can please provide your contact details to Mr. K.K. Prithvi at bcic.prithvi@bcic.org.in, I will be grateful. I must emphasize, that, at the committee level, we are much more action oriented, and we want to partner with organisations and individuals, who can take things forward.
One key point that I am trying to promote is the concept of Decongestion through Integration. Today, government wants industry to locate outside Bangalore. Be it Tumkur, Dobbspet, Doddaballapura, Kolar, Malur, Kanakapura, Ramanagaram, Mysore, Hubli etc.
To achieve this, integration of Surface transport is required, to help people get from home to work smoothly and comfortably. Intra, Inter City Bus services, and rail services need to be tied up. Lets hold a seminar with MDs of KSRTC, BMTC, and DRM Railways. I propose you prepare a presentation or note to the committee on these lines.
With regards to the broad basing of comments on other topics. Yes, that is no less important. However, I do not have the expertise to comment on it, so I don't.
Our attitude of "Swalpa Adjust Madi" is a double edged sword. It makes our city more desirable, but it also lets those in power abuse us without fear of retribution.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
about yelahanka afb..
Base: Yelahanka AFB, Bangalore, India
Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE)
Aircraft: An-32, ALH Dhruv, HJT-16, Mi-8, HPT-32, MiG-21US, MiG-21Bis, MiG-27, Jaguar IS, Jaguar IM
Notes: India's test center originally started with a unit to test the Folland Gnat Mk I.
Indian Air Force Test Pilot School (IAFTPS)
Aircraft: Aircraft shared with the ASTE.
Notes: The Test Pilot School is part of the Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment. Pilots who attended the Empire Test Pilot School at salisbury eventually helped to start the school at ASTE in 1976.
Aero India is a biennial air show held in this AFB. The first show was held in 1996. The latest was in 2007.
And suddenly they have become un-important to us, moreso for a mundane reason? It is like saying our folks are old now..no space for them here..they belong to some ashram in the himalayas!!
No Hurry......
Hi Narayan
In the airport business, once closed, is closed. Re-activation will require another act by un-interested politicians in Delhi. Karnataka has no clout politically.
There is a radical school of thought, that lets load up BIA completely. Put all the pressure on the road. Let the jams pile up, on the road and in the air. Let cars zoom on NH7, let some pedestrians get hurt.
In today Times of India, page 3, there is a story on Kempepura junction being blocked off. This was the decision taken in the High Level Task Force. http://epaper.timesofindi...
I have written about this issue in my blog a while back. http://deveshagarwal.blog...
My point is, what is the harm in letting HAL continue alongside BIAL ? Everyone seems to following the BIAL argument that it will do them great financial harm.
Okay, why does not BIAL come forth and place its financials and say what harm will be done to it ?
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Devesh, We arent closing HAL
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
HAL not closing.....
Hi Narayan
HAL is an embarrasment of an airport (PTB) compared to BIAL, do we need such stark contrast in service - showcasing our inability to provide good service without pvt participation?
I am trying to understand your gauge of an airport. Is it only a nice glitzy passenger terminal ?
If you want to compare some aspects, try to look at Cargo. It is a facility BIAL admits it has completely forgotten about. Only 50% is ready, it will be September for 100%. In any case, the two cargo operators service only the airlines. What about us industry, who depend on air cargo for daily operations ? 50% (Rs. 50,000 Cr) of Bangalore's freight is sent by air. There is no cargo village. After waking up at the 11th hour, BIAL managed to convince the Air Cargo and Customs agents to start using a "temporary" facility out in a barren field.
Many companies have started shifting their cargo base to Chennai, which works out still cheaper than sending cargo via BIAL, but a lot more expensive than HAL. In a competitive environment, Bangalore becomes uncompetitive. Things start going downhill. Quoting PM Manmohan Singh "If Bangalore fails, India fails".
Lastly, I dont think the airport issue is a priority to Bangalore. As a city there is a lot more civic issues that could do with some extra focus and enery/voice before we even think of having a second airport!
If you look at an airport as just a passenger terminal, your statement is bang on. But an airport is a major driver of economic activity globally, so it assume a lot greater importance. Remember for every 1 million passengers, 1000 employees work at the airport. I cannot think of even 1 company in Bangalore employing 15,000 employees.
Yes, you are right, there are many issues with Bangalore, and we must back up our talk on Praja, with our active involvement on the ground.
I do not mean this as a challenge, but how do Praja visitors help out with issues affecting Bangalore, other than posting on Praja ? I mean getting down and doing something about an issue that affects or interests them ?
My profile is in my blog.
-----------------------
Regards
Devesh R. Agarwal
Visit my aviation blog at http://deveshagarwal.blog...
Regards
Devesh
Bangalore Aviation
Enjoy life, destroy FUD
Please see my earlier
User Interaction Designer
Bangalore
HAL not Closing.. Expanded
Devesh
I have always wondered if BIAL is not equipped as of today to handle passenger and cargo - can some one account for the huge amount of money (correct me if I am wrong) Rs.2500 Crs were spent on the paltry 71000 sq m terminal and a single 4k mt runway? For that matter even our hon'ble minister Mr Prafulla Patel had shown disappointment in the design and look of the Airport itself... why did'nt we stop BIAL from doing blunders?
Apart from that do we have any solution to end this fiasco? BIAL cannot handle the growth as of today. HAL should not close.. BIAL cannot expand because of the AirForce Base... so whats the solution? it has to be either Let them open the airport and ask them to account for everything and please please please get to the drawing board before planning expansion and this time I guess they should hire some one more experienced in designing the airport itself.
If HAL is retained will GOI or GOK renovate the Terminal and the facilities?? I have felt bad when people talk ill about the facilities we have in HAL.. Yes you may argue that other airports are equally bad - I am only concerned about our image (I mean Bengalooru) - will HAL put up a multistorey parking lot in front of the terminal?
I agree with one point - that then railways built connectivity in India - today Airports (the way they are built and operated ) will make or break regional economy. Yes BIA can eventually employ up to 30K employees too if it grows to that stature...
Don't confuse !
I think people are just confusing the issue of cost of building BIAL. BIAL is not built using money from public exchequer 100%. If it is then it would have been state owned enterprise. It is not.
It is built on a private public partnership which means Government (AAI 13 % and KSIIDC 13%) is a minority share holder in the venture.
Karantaka State has provided the land, 350 Crores in the form of SBI Gaurantee, 735 Crorers financed from ICICI. Rest are investments from majority holders.
Majority shares (74%) are owned by L&T, Siemens and Unique Zurich Airport.
The Government of India has granted the exclusive right and privilege to BIAL to carry out the development, design, financing, construction, operation and management of the airport for a period of thirty years from airport opening date with an option to extend the concession for another 30 years.
Then the question would be, how do the majority share holders would recover their investment? They would receovering their investment and i am sure a fat profits from various charges thta are laid on users ultimately.