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Do We Need Bommasandra Line of Metro Starting from Jayanagar

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Metro Rail

With the recent announcement of Elevated Road from Jayadeva to Silkboard via BTM, which is the main bottleneck on the Outer Ring Road, I was thinking is the Metro investment worth here.

From Banashankari III Stage, till Jayadeva, on the main road, buses reach within 30 minutes. Some time wastage is encountered near Banashankari Bus Stop and Krishna Sevashrama Hospita for busesl. Bottleneck starts from Jayadeva to Silkboard. It is OK till Advaita Bunk during non-peak hours, only after that, near AXA Building and the lake road entrace is the main bottleneck. Private cars and vehicles take internal roads till Jayadeva via Monotype and Jayanagar 8th Block and can reach there within 20 minutes with only 1 signal near MindTree/Monotype. Thanks to internal wide roads forming blocks within Jayanagar.

With the elevated flyover from Jayadeva to Silkboard, one can cover BTM in around 5-10 minutes as it is just  2.5 kms. A private vehicle or even a company shuttle could reach Silkboard from Banashankari in around  or less than 30 minutes.  

Again, on the BETL, one can reach Electronic City within 10 minutes and road below in around 20 minutes. A total commute from Banashankari to Electronic City takes around 1hr - 1hr 15 minutes. With this flyover in BTM, it could come down to as low as 45 minutes and for public transit buses around 1 hour. Now the question comes, how fast the Bommasandra Metro Line could cover this distance. It should be not less than 30 minutes.

People from Banashankari Area /  Western Bangalore could easily reach Electronic City / Bommasandra. Problem  is for those who stay North of Bangalore such as Sahakar Nagar / Rajaji nagar / Peenya. For them, now they have to take N-S line of Phase 1 Metro and take an interchange in Rajalakshmi Kalyan Mantap Metro station.

Again, there is one more question, why an interchange station, why not a junction and have both Kanakapura Road trains and Bommasandra trains to start from Peenya Depot. This is a complicated station design.  Land issues are popping up as well along with an unwanted changeover for a commuter. In cities like NY , multiple subway lines use common tracks in core city. Why not similar arrangement.

Coming back to the route, this will be a very round about route for a North Bangalorean travelling to electronic city / Bommasandra. 

Other alternative could have been to branch out N-S line of Phase 1 after market station and travel via Hosur Road and second alternative was to branchout Bannerghatta Road line at Dairy Circle to Electronic City.

A signal free corridor is under consideration between Banashankari III Stage till Silkboard on ORR. There are two parallel arterial roads between Banashankari III stage, the core ORR and the Marenahalli Road. Marenahalli road is primarily used by city buses. We could have used dedicated bus lanes in alternate directions here. I will post the maps shortly in this post..

Overall, I think the Bommasandra Line via Jayanagar could have been avoided and could have been used somewhere else.

 

Comments

silkboard's picture

my opinion Vasanth, Srinidhi and others ..

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Deeper discussion is fine, but in my opinion, it may not be worth to argue over route choices as there would be reports and stats available (they can all be made to say whatever you want said) to justify. We should qustion the broader thing - huge funding for next phases, ignorance of other planned modes by whoever is deciding to fund these phases, and lack of updates to what was supposedly the transportation masterplan for us CTTP-2007.

It should be legally valid for us (citizens) to question large expenses that may not have public approval and might be discriminatory (to BMRDA region) in nature. Just that, we don't know who is the party accountable for making spend decisions on transportation plans of Bangalore. :)

Can't promise anything, but trying to reach out to some other groups to see if we can do protests or PIL on this line argument.

kbsyed61's picture

Total allocation for PT Infrastructure!

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Agree with SB about the issues that we need to confront. Phase-1 and Phase-2 of METRO is done deal whether they could have chosen better options will now be only an academic discussion.

What is important now is to know how much GOK is willing to spend every year for next 10-20 years in improving the PT infrastructure? How much of that goes to each project and what are the outcomes of each project? Only than one can say which one makes more sense and if all make sense, than how much each should get? It need not be binary question and a binary answer.

My take is METRO, CRS, BRTS and BMTC restructure all are important and should get equal attention.

 

Sanjeev's picture

Here is the Govt approval for PH-1 of METRO.

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How many of us read the approval line by line of May'2006  by both GOK and GOI with UDD

Please go thru it which was approved at  Rs 6400 crore at completion in 5 Years.

http://www.bmrc.co.in/pdf/orders.pdf

It seems, station designa are smaller then Delhi as per approval and even  number of Metro Cars per Rake will be  less by TWO as compared to Delhi METRO.

So ineffect,  Bangalore METRO  station design itself is at flaw not considering the long term planning and demand.  This may be to cut the corners of project cost  similar to Standard gauge against Broad Gauge for METRO of Delhi Ph-1

So capactiy design of Bangalore METRO  is far below then Delhi Metro.

I dont need any explaination for the above flaw saying Capital of India and Capital of GOK.  Its like saying student in METRO can have better govt education then student in rural.

My question is : Whats  validity of DPR  saying 5 years completion and project cost of Rs 6400 Crore which was prepared by DMRC.

Now even after 2014,  this Ph-1 will not see the  completion even at the cost of  Rs 13,000 Crore. 

Now effect of Currency fluctuation and non receipt of revenue due to not starting operations even after 7 Years.

With further loan from ADB and French Development Agency (AFD)  along with HUDCO & Japan Bank for International Cooperation (JBIC).

Sanjeev's picture

Agence Francaise de Development (AFD), loan effect BMRC

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Terms of Loan : the loan tenure is 20 years with a moratorium period of 5 years and the interest rate is Euribor +150 basis point.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/states/110m-french-loan-for-namma-metro-project/article4414513.ece

Can any one explain the interest portion effect on BMRC and with further Rs depreciating against USD & EURO

Sanjeev's picture

Some important findings on METRO and TDR

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We should analyse  with current progress of METRO

http://casumm.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/transfer-of-development-rights.pdf

kbsyed61's picture

Risk of Currenty Fluctuations!

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Sanjeev,

This argument of currency fluctuation can not be an argument to oppose any further expansion of METRO.

The risk of currency fluctuation is a known RISK in External Borrowings. That is universal for any project or any borrowing. This is not only true for METRO, it is true for all the borrowings including the private enterprise. In recent times, India Inc has borrowed heavily from International Financial Institutions (NOT World Bank or IMF) due to high interest rate regime of RBI. Now these companies are finding tough for the repayment due to fall in rupee value.

The point I would like to make is this could also be true for CRS if GOK/GOI opts to borrow from World Bank, IDB or ADB. That doesn't make the project unimportant or not preferable? These risks are considered and accounted while borrowing.

 

srinidhi's picture

Only limited risks are

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Only limited risks are considered Syed. They can only hedge to a few rupees varitaions..never in the range of 20-30%..

Also, it not just lending..what about the impact on our own (state/central) exchequer? The real effect of the currency devalution is widespread..including on the local economy..whinch we havent yet seen the full face of!

Btw its interesting that there is no news about BETL saying anything about the metro line on Hosur road which will bite big chunks into their revenue..afterall the PPP road project was built for the sole purpose of catering to EC needs..the last I read was they were not able to break even to this date and expecting the revenues to further go down will be suicidal for them!

Sanjeev's picture

Risk of Currency increases as you more borrow with External

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@Syed,

I am completly aware of any project borrowing the loan externally with currency risk.  As the METRO Project was started with Rs 6400 Crore for Ph-1,  now pegged at Rs 14,000 Crore,  still to be completed in next 2 years. 

Look at how BMRC went on borrowing without any project plan :

First with HUDCO, 

Second  with  JBIC,  

Third time  ADB

and  Fourth with  AFD in span of 6 Years. 

Then where is the control on  the project of  this big.  For such massive project you need funding and with time line and cost control.   

But does this mean  every year u keep scouting for lenders to keep the project live ???  and do not check what the risk liability due to currency fluctuations  after some time.

Will BMRC come out and  inform the stakeholders  like  Govt of Karnataka,  GOI  and Public how its getting  impacted  due to currency fluctuations in recent times and whats the impact on over all project.

 

Naveen's picture

Good observations, but..

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Vasanth,

While you make some very good observations, I think they are relevant only for the shorter-term. In the long run, cars & buses cannot be expected to take internal roads in perpetuity to save time. They must be provided with appropriate main roads & routes that do not disturb residential or secondary /tertiary areas. The fact that they are using internal roads now is because of heavy congestion on the main thorougfares that have limited traffic capacity. Sarakki signal to Silkboard via Jayadeva is an extreme example - traffic from a six-lane ring road gets compressed to a 4-lane road. Bus travel is time-consuming for this reason & we know what the road system is in bangalore with narrow widths & too many junctions.

Painted bus priority lanes (without actual physical separation) on some short road stretches is not going to work due to repeated violations in excessive traffic. There are bus lane violations even in Ahmadabad despite separated lanes where traffic is high. Bangalore is the most difficult city to plan BRT since there are no 6-lane roads cutting through the city over a long distance (except IRR/ORR). Cities like Hyderabad /Chennai & especially Delhi actually have far higher road widths & designs that allow for BRT but of all the cities, the case for an extensive metro is much more stronger for Bangalore than any of the others.

Further, metro routes are not planned only to take peole directly to EC or ITPL - majority commuters don't go there & the system is for the whole city. So, it isn't like they have to be designed for only those that go right up to EC from wherever. The majority will be people arriving from say Nagwara or Tannery rd or Hebbal or Kamakshipalya - proceeding to Singasandra or Bommasandra or Oxford college. The permutations & combinations can be endless. However, travel by metro despite the line transfers can be much faster than bus or car in most cases. There will be cases where a car or bus trip may be faster, but this is likely to be for short runs & not over long distances as you mention. Metro is also a long-term provision & not for just a few years ahead.

If you look at some of the various metro systems abroad, the network is such that it allows people to travel from any origin point to any destination with minimum number of transfers. There will always be some cases where the no. of transfers may be higher, but generally it should provide for minimum transfers on the trunk or high density routes.

From what they have announced so far, we know that the plan appears to be a grid system. Three N-S routes (i.e. Anjanapura-BIEC; Gottigere-Nagawara & Yelahanka-Sarjapur rd) intersecting two E-W routes (Whitefield-Kengeri & Hoskerehalli-Marathalli). Bommasandra line is one of 3 other branch lines (other lines being Magadi rd /Tollgate-NICE rd & Nagawara-Airport).

Naveen's picture

Biases again

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Sanjeev,

Can you name any mega infrastructure project in India or abroad that have been completed in time & within budget? I dont want any chinese examples since they do not have the same delay-causing environment like ours with displaced peoples' rights, workers rights, etc added to an age-old railways bogey that takes its own sweet time for all approvals besides inter-departmental conflicts within the city itself.

For example, the Delhi metro started construction in 1998, opened its 1st section in 2002 (i.e after 4 years) & ph-1 was completed in 2006 (i.e. after 8 years) - all this even with heavy backing & support by CG. So, I think the 5-year period & 5% inflation quoted in GoI approval was incorrect in the first place since they already had experience with Delhi Metro's construction period.

And read the report properly - 5453crs was the estimated cost & 6395crs (i.e. +17.3%) was the estimation in 2006 after allowing for an assumed 5% inflation per year for 5 years & for 33kms track. Added to this there were extensions of the track on north & south by over 10km. This is another 1800crs (at appx 180crs/km). Actual inflation has been over 8%. Adjusting for the difference on acct of this, it comes to appxly 9262crs (17.3/5*8=27.7% additional).
So, the total (assuming 2011 completion) should have been abt 9262crs. Add the 4 years termed as delay (assuming 2015 completion) & the inflation for 4 years at 8% & we have 11,309crs (+22.1% additional).

Currency fluctuation is another 20% appxly & this unpredictable cost adds to all projects, not just Bangalore Metro. So, the adjusted figure is abt 13570crs, which is almost exactly what the official estimation of 14000crs is, when additional payments demanded by SWR & statue delay costs are added.

I dont agree with you or any others blaming & criticizing BMRC for delays or cost overruns since the 5 years & 5% was incorrect to start with & whatever delays that occurred were not due to their fault. It was due to GoI (delaying funds release), GoK (statue issue) & various others - especially SWR that kept delaying approvals by asking for huge compensations (including the strange issue of compensation claim for slowing down of trains when passing below bridge under construction!).

What about Mysore track doubling that has been going on for over 12 years now? If it were completed in time, it would have cost a quarter or even lesser than what railways is paying for it now, isn't it? No wonder they are incurring heavy losses (25000crs+), but everyone is accepting it because that is what they have always been doing, as do most other public sectors.

And what about the effect of currency fluctuations for other metro systems under construction & the impact on their state finances? Is everyone to stop construction because they have to raise funds additionally & the impact on their financials? If people choose to blame only BMRC for "currency fluctuation effects", "sand strike effects" in addition to additional borrowings & delays, it clearly shows their biases.

And capactiy design for a Metro system is based on how large the city's population is & the expected maximum ridership levels. It does not have anything to do with metro system of a city that has a much larger population & user base. Delhi's population is now 1.68 crores whilst Bangalore is 96 lakhs. And Delhi metro has BG in ph-1 & standard gauge in all other phases, for which construction & operating costs are all lesser since parts do not have to be custom made.

And then you say, they cut corners to reduce cost! Sorry, but your arguments are just as bizzare as the other bogus criticisms brought out here.

Sanjeev's picture

I do not have to explain as time will show GOK the door

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GOK  and Karnataka will carry this burden as the infrastructur is exclusively for METRO only. 

All Mega Projects  will not have cost and time over run by two times as BMRC is going thru.

Considering even 10 Kms elevated added  later, this should add only Rs 1800 Crore.

So in effect  project cost should not exceed the Rs 6400 + 1800 Crore  +  add another 4% additional escalation on 8200 Crore (  328 ).  This comes to around 8600 Crore  ( as inflation itself is 4+4  ).

Also all the work has been delayed so the cash flow to that extent would have been delayed by BMRC, in-effect for the next  3/4  years add another  1400 Crore as inflation ( only 50% )   as first 4  years project has progressed with what ever %.  So ineffect  its R 9600 Crore.  But What  BMRC is claiming is Rs 14000 Crore for Ph-1 even well before the Currency bubble happening in last 30 days.

That means BMRC cost  escalaion to Rs 14000 Crore without Currency risk will blow over Rs 16000 Crore.  If I am wrong,  please show me where BMRC has claimed the Currency risk is added in the RS 14000 Crore.

Ref Page No : 3 of Point 7 Project Cost  & Page No -5 Point 10 :

Also this projected Cost of   Rs 6400 Crore does  not include another  Taxes :     Customes Duty on imports, Central  Excise Duty,   Sales Tax and Works Contract Tax. by both GOI and GOK amounts to  Rs 1000 Crore ( Rs 797 Crore GOI  + Rs 172 Crore GOK )

Regarding  the  Bangalore - Mysore double track is for over all passenger, goods trains, Electrification.  Already  the Tracks  are put to use by SWR upto Mandya and from Mysore end also.   Politics which has delayed  and even not expected to be over by 2014 due to KSRTC & NICE.

Purpose of creating  METRO SPV outside the Indian Railway  subject   is to over come the project delays and cost  over run with more professional approach ???

As u rightly mentioned as 5% and 5 years is wrong assumtion,  who will tell DMRC,  UDD / GOI and  BMRC on this, this whole thing was cooked to justify the project on returns and time.   Then whats credibilty of DMRC on preparing DPR's for METRO projects.    Same Yard stick will be applied for  Ph-2 now  and  even BMRC has  plan to take the METRO all corners of city as if the funds r  available at throw away.

If  u can get the copy of the GOK approval for PH-2,  then things will be more clear  how BMRC  may be calculaing cost based on 2007 Prices / Currency  and excuting in 2015 -2020  for Ph-2

Poor Planning : Why did the BMRC spent money in constructing and completing Basavagudi - Jayanagar - Kanakapura Road when this segment was not to be opened till 2015.   They could have launched this work from Oct''2012  from Basavangudi which could  have taken 2/3 years for completion as complet  length is elevated.

We should not be in surprise if the project cost of Ph-1  shoots to near Rs 16000 crore  and GOK to spend huge money in servicing loan interest in coming years. 

Let BMRC tell how much balance amount needed to complet the project Ph-1  and  effect of Currency depreciation.

Naveen's picture

BMRC bashing - keep it up!

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GOK  and Karnataka will carry this burden as the infrastructur is exclusively for METRO only.

Maybe GoK /GoI (& also very large sections of the Bangalore public) think that solving traffic congestion problems in Bangalore by providing an alternate is far more important. You may file an RTI about how they wish to meet the escalated budgets rather than assuming that they have no means or ways to deal with it. Surveys have already told them that they will have sufficient ridership & RE exploitation for revenues.

All Mega Projects  will not have cost and time over run by two times as BMRC is going thru.

I asked you for examples of projects of this size & also quoted DMRC's timelines - you are again repeating that all mega projects do not have such timelines & cost overruns! Kindly quote appropriate examples instead of arguing with your assumptions.
I will quote one more example for you - Chennai metro: estimated to cost 9565 crores in 2007, it was revised to double in 3 years at 18000crs in Sep-2010 long before currency depreciation. See this wiki article (under construction history). I'm not sure how much the final costs would be, but they will surely be more than three times the original estimate & far more cost escalation than that of BMRC.

So in effect  project cost should not exceed the Rs 6400 + 1800 Crore  +  add another 4% additional escalation on 8200 Crore (  328 ).  This comes to around 8600 Crore  ( as inflation itself is 4+4  ).

Your calculation is incorrect - inflation has been over 8% per year, not just 4+4% for the entire period of construction as assumed by you - go through my calculations again. BMRC has not stated exchange rate cover, but they may have already paid for most of the imports by now or have a strategy in place to budget for it, as will Chennai, Mumbai & other metro constructions that are likely to have huge unexpected cost overruns due to the unfavorable situation & fall in rupee value.

Bangalore - Mysore double track is for over all passenger, goods trains, Electrification --- Politics which has delayed  and even not expected to be over by 2014 due to KSRTC & NICE.

So, you are saying that passenger goods train track & electrification on ground level in rural open areas is a much bigger & greater challenge than building overhead viaducts, tracks, boring tunnels, building stations & installing third rail within city limits with running traffic below & above!? This again shows your biases.

Due to KSRTC & NICE? What have they got to do with railway track doubling - & why has it taken over 12 years & will still take another 3 years??? So, this pattern of abysmal & pathetic performances by railways in construction & its deplorable project commissioning history is acceptable to you???

Purpose of creating  METRO SPV outside the Indian Railway  subject   is to over come the project delays and cost  over run with more professional approach???

As I described, they can only be as professional as conditions in this country will allow them to be, which I believe thay have. Beyond that, things are out of their control - they do not run the country or the state or railways or other departments. Delays /cost overruns are nothing new, except that this period has seen huge cost overruns for most projects due to very high inflation & exchange rates.

this whole thing was cooked to justify the project on returns and time.

You have yourself posted the social cost-Benefit analysis of Delhi Metro recently & I do not need to elaborate any further - perhaps you think even that has been cooked up too??? Even so, metro in delhi has already justified its investments with huge & increasing riderships, but you may argue against it & every article that analyses its returns I guess, but they will mean nothing. The country has accepted it as beneficial & justified the costs. Sorry, try another line.

If  u can get the copy of the GOK approval for PH-2,  then things will be more clear  how BMRC  may be calculaing cost based on 2007 Prices / Currency  and excuting in 2015 -2020  for Ph-2

I dont think they would have used 2007 prices. If so, costs would be some 9000crs. They may have used 2012 prices when the DPRs were done. For every project, they will have to go by current costs when making estimations & based on anticipated rate of inflation. It is not possible to foresee by how much it may overshoot when markets are not known with any certainty, especially in India & under prevailing conditions of the economy, political uncertainty, etc.

Poor Planning : Why did the BMRC spent money in constructing and completing Basavagudi - Jayanagar - Kanakapura Road when this segment was not to be opened till 2015.   They could have launched this work from Oct''2012  from Basavangudi which could  have taken 2/3 years for completion as complet  length is elevated.

It is part of the project in case you do not know that yet. They may have spent even more if they had delayed the construction there. Also, they did make attempts to get trains started on that line by using stabling lines for maintenance, but that did not materialize due to rejection by railway safety as had been reported in the press.

We should not be in surprise if the project cost of Ph-1  shoots to near Rs 16000 crore  and GOK to spend huge money in servicing loan interest in coming years.

Maybe, but solving the congestion seems far more urgent & important than breaking ones head more than necessary about costs at this stage.

Let BMRC tell how much balance amount needed to complet the project Ph-1  and  effect of Currency depreciation.

Have you tried asking them? If they have not answered, you may file RTI if you wish to get that information.

srinidhi's picture

Increasingly there is trend

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Increasingly there is trend to resort to excuses in order to justify anything negative..BSY was famous for doing it with his now in-famous sentence 'ನೀವು ಮಾಡಲಿಲ್ಲವ ?'..the central govt also is known to do this a lot, including the PM saying yesterday 'I am not the custodian of coal scam related files''..even public too..like Anil Ambani citing amnesia recently!

Also the trend to force public to use the likes of RTI to get inofrmation form un willing sources is un healthy..after all if everything was going on really well why would any one even think about it..even praja existance would not be needed..unfortunately its not so..

Wonder where are the shining exmaples!..was reading reports of flyover projects in Mumbai where contractors were rewarded monetarily for finishing projects on-time or earlier..on the bigger projects the HYD metro itself has been progressing steadily once the work started on the ground(apr 2012) by L&T..I am sure they will finish the all elevated metro in record time.

Btw our own blr metro too has done resonably well inspite of so many impediments(contractors/ state gov/ central gov/ public)..imagine we have already have a showpiece reach1 functioning since last 2 years..we also have the remodelled boulevard becoming a culture hub and hosting drummers and fashion shows etc, icecream joints, toilets, chaipoints, santhe place..hmm getting back to running trains..the reach 3 tests are currently on..but again its the central govt organisations which need to give the final approvals..SoD not yet done..so nothing really can be done by BMRCL..except wait..also if the UG terrain is so rocky that it damages the TBM's(margarita is currently stuck somewhere near GPO) what can be done..if ph II dpr says go to whitefield parallel to the IR line and not according to the CTTP route..its got notjhing to do with BMRCL!

So lets not blame metro..afterall its all the other institutions and agencies which really are responsible for what is needed for the city and how it is done..

Vasanth's picture

Not to blame BMRC, GoK is the problem

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This is not to blame BMRCL, it is the GoK problem. BMRCL is doing its best in the provided routes including saving Nanda road. It is a very painful job sitting in the seat of BMRCL and Sivasilam and seeing things done. I was tweeting regularly to Sivasilam and he / someone authorized by him was answering every tweet reasonably.

GoK and IDD if it had known that they are constructing an elevated road through BTM ahead of time,  and had let the CTTP planners ahead of time, the report might have been different.

Now BMRCL is taking thrashing from residents of Jayanagar and JP Nagar for the interchange station at Jayadeva Junction. But with the flyover planned, the plans might change and all the thrashings that they are taking would be waste of time and unnecessary pain. I saw the recent public meeting by Sivasilam and it was very painful, with everyone taking on him on one or the other point especially for the Jayadeva issue.

Coming to BRTS,  if we have parallel wide roads with 2 lanes in each direction, it could be made one way resulting in 4 lanes in each direction and two lanes reserved for buses. This is the case here from Kadrenahalli Cross to Jayadeva. We have Outer Ring Road and Marenahalli Main Road running parallely 2 blocks to each other.

Javascript is required to view this map.

In BTM, with just the flyover, BRT could have been done below flyover with one lane for normal traffic and one lane in each direction for buses with the median removed. This can be continued further from Silkboard to Hebbal on the median with the median divider removed. 

It is the mindset of our politicians, planners, BMTC as well as people which is preventing it to be get done. Successful chief ministers like Narendra Modi and Sheela Dixit have got it done in their territories. Despite of stiff opposition, Sheela Dixit is continuing to do it. Mistake that Delhi did not do is not implementing ITDP standards for BRTS.

Coming again to Metro, I am mainly thinking of such a huge investment, loss of green cover on Marenahalli road , so much of downtime involved especially in BTM stretch during construction, with this complicated design of Metro over flyover.

 

Vasanth's picture

Integration between IDD and DULT

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I think IDD and DULT should work much closer. Any new problem, DULT should be given an oppurtunity to see if anything could be done using existing resources such as Suburban Rail Station / BRT . If that option does not work out, if it is a major trunk route, a Metro either elevated or underground depending upon availability of land , a feeder route a Monorail / Eleavated LRT.

Also, BMTC and BBMP should work closely with DULT in deciding bus stops, bus stop designs, dedicated lanes, pavements etc.

Naveen's picture

Extremely poor co-ordination

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Extremely poor co-ordination between public agencies is a given as is their commitment to delivery, no doubt. Successful delivery of very large infra systems in India so far (the "shining examples") are systems that were given a go-by from political interference and ones that 'short-crcuited' co-ordination between government agencies with heavy CG backing. They also diverged completely from the diktats of Indian railways & introduced entirely new methods of project execution. As we know, the results are impressive :

1) Konkan railways - 760km with 93 tunnels (4 over 3km long, one 6.5km long), 179 major bridges, 8000 minor bridges, 300 ROBs /RUBs - all built in just seven years.

Its another matter that KRC has been bleeding since inception, but in all fairness, it has nothing to do with KRC's operations & has more to do with the attitude of Indian railways towards its sister concerns & the step-motherly treatment that it has meted out to KRC.

2) Delhi metro 1st phase - 65.1km built in 8 years (3 years ahead of schedule & within budget).

These are two undesirable examples :

1) Kolkata Metro - 18 km of metro (ug) built in 23 years by IR, 12 times over budget.

2) Bangaloe-Mysore track doubling - 12 years & counting, yet to be completed.

Agreed:
The contribution by Indian railways to develop & "connect" a very diverse India is more than any other public sector without any doubt. The state of its poor finances due to demands from rail ministry for dishing out largesse after largesse upon the public for political advantage has milked Indian Railways so much that it is now on life-support in the form of ever-increasing grants from CG. This is one of the biggest tragedies since the railways are the vital "blood vessels" for the whole country.

However, there is no justification for the railways to pose hurdles for other rail corporations. The attitude of railway officials in the way they treat anything outside their "domain" (like KRC & metro rail systems) is clearly violative of the principles of fairness & ethics.

Naveen's picture

BRT along RV-Jayadeva-SB?

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Not to blame BMRC, GoK is the problem

Very true.

GoK and IDD if it had known that they are constructing an elevated road through BTM ahead of time,  and had let the CTTP planners ahead of time, the report might have been different

CTTP are generally recommendations for authorities & not the other way around (i.e. DULT does not need to give inputs about plans - these must be based on study). Fyi CTTP had recommended elevated ORR along common portion with Bannerghatta Road, additional slip road at SB intersection & underpass along 16th main BTM Layout.

BRT could have been done below flyover with one lane for normal traffic and one lane in each direction for buses with the median removed. This can be continued further from Silkboard to Hebbal on the median with the median divider removed.

One lane for bus on each side below flyover is okay, but only one lane for each direction for general traffic may be insufficient. I have not seen that road for some time now - is it possible to widen it to atleast 1.5 lanes each side, like service roads on ORR? if so, BRT is very much possible as you say provided it also runs on Hosur road upto Bommasandra or beyond. Actually, if BRT is indeed possible on surface along RV terminal-Jayadeva-Silkboard stretch, metro may not be required at all till Bommasandra or even Attibele. But, GoK has put this metro route on priority.

the trend to force public to use the likes of RTI to get inofrmation form un willing sources is un healthy..

I think the objective for RTI is for release of information for those who wish to know more details than what is available on public domain, similar to Freedom of information act in the USA. Unwilling sources are certainly a big obstacle in India presently as old babus have got used to ways to keep things hidden in cupboards (& losing them conveniently when it can expose them) but things may improve with efflux of time.

Vasanth's picture

1 Bus and 2 cars can pass

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Naveen on the ORR between Nayandahalli to Silkboard, one bus and two cars or two buses and a two wheeler can pass simultaneously. Some places width is even more like BTM where two buses and a car can pass.

silkboard's picture

sad to see either/or styled comments

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Little disappointed to see Naveen/Sanjeev/Srinidh go at each other like that. There are no clear ways to settle arguments of types like "which mode is better", "which route is better" etc. Any planning for future and growth would involve assumptions, and without referring to the source data and details behind the assumptions, arguments can be endless.

I feel it is best to campaign for  - Metro inside CBD which, invest trillions there if you can get the money if you want to, but look at other modes to connect farther areas, and make that investment now because there will be more flexibility in planning, cost would be lower, and you will get to shape the growth of the BMR area instead of following it.

I feel we should all join hands to force a rethink on Metro Ph2/3 investments to make "whoever is responsible for transportation masterplan of BMR" (big question and root cause of our extra 60 minutes we all spent every morning) think of BMR connectivity NOW before it is too late (and we will be left with no other option but to lay tracks in swarga or pataal loka to avoid acquisitions and work around track laying laws).

Naveen's picture

Dont solve yesterday's problems, only tomorrow's!

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"DONT ATTEMPT TO SOLVE YESTERDAY'S PROBLEMS WITH COSTLY METRO - IT CAN WAIT. INSTEAD, SOLVE ONLY TOMORROW'S PROBLEMS ELSEWHERE TODAY ITSELF SINCE IT IS CHEAP & WE PUSHED FOR IT"

This is the bizzare argument being put up. It will not find any takers other than the few here that are trying to justify such narrow focus & skewed thinking.

Nor was there any "either/or" styled comments as is being made out. It was attempts by the same few here to bash BMRC for anything possible with an "only suburban rail" focus (enraged, perhaps with their future routes planning, which was anyway part of their job).

Planning for future has already been outlined clearly in CTTP & its recommendations were apt & in tandem with the pattern of huge developments that have taken place - & it has recommended metro, suburban & BRT -- not just a suburban rail system for so-called tomorrow's problems. I'm equally disappointed.

Sanjeev's picture

Please Read what Suburban Rail recomended & accepted what

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One example 7 Kms Suburban Rail is what recomended by CTTP between Lottegolahhali - Yelahanka. This is because u will get the Mono Rail from Yesvantpur - Hebbal, so how to connect Lottegolhalli to Yelahanaka, fill the gap by Suburban Rail.

Yelahanka - KR Puram did not find the Suburban Rail in CTTP2007 report but suddenly METRO gets preference on the same route and gets justified for volume in 2013???

CTTP2007 just copied the HSRL route as if they had recomended. Now no one wants to talk on HSRL, but their was so much hype during 2009-2011, and even some one went on saying this project will incurre cost escalation of Rs ONE Crore per day if further delay in executing.

Thanks for not progressing on the HSRL, now GOK is able to save Rs ONE Crore per day on HSRL.

CTTP2007 is one of the report which GOK should not even look at it. Same thing happening on the ground for CTTP2007 : Which plans of CTTP are getting implemented???

CTTP outcome was defined well before the report was made and then all justifictions provided why the outcome that way. Thats why today its hard to accept that CTTP2007 was utter failure and City Bangalore is sufferring on Urban Transport.

Thanks to recent developments in BMRCL, Bangalore city will soon see good all other modes Urban Transport for all Commuters.

In 2011,  Wilbur Smith report which was commissioned by GOK  after CTTP2007  does not look at Suburban Rail as an option for Bangalore & BMRDA as urban Transport. 

 

Sanjeev's picture

Ph-2 of METRO cost Estimation with 1USD = INR 50/- ????

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Following are some of the observations on the BMRC presenatations  made during March'2013 by  B S Sudhir Chandra (Director Project & Planning )

http://www.icn.org.au/sites/default/files/15.50%20-%20Sudhir%20Chandra.pdf

1. Likely Commissioning Dates :

Magadi Road - Mysore Road Terminal by 31.05.2014 of Reach -2 of 6.9 Kms,
But Underground ( E - W ) MG Road - Magadi Road 4.5 Kms by 28.02.2015

Both are contradicting??? How will the BMRC run Metro Cars on Magadi Road - Mysore Road Terminal before opening of Underground section of MG Road - Magadi Raod.

Even if they can pull the Metro Cars, by end of Oct'2013, the UG segment of MG Road - Magadi road should be open for trial run of METRO cars even without any safety.

2. Same thing with N-S corridor 6.7 Kms of National College - Puttenahalli commissioning by 31.07.2014???


3. Phase -2 of the METRO Cost has been considered with Exchange Rate as USD : Rs 50/-, Hope Bangalore city is saved by METRO and not doomed.

My appoximate estimation with current exchange rate of 1USD = Rs66/- and 30% Imported cost of the Rs 26405 Crore, will increase the cost by another Rs 2000 Crore. All these Cost Estimation with assumptions of USD 50/-.

Looking at the cost of Construction going up, further cost escalation will be in the tune of 10% of the total estimated project cost = Rs 2640 Crore.

So in effect Project Cost of Ph-2 of METRO will be : INR 31045 /- Crore ( 26405 + 2000 + 2640 )

This is assuming 4 Years / 5 Years as project period after GOI approves.

Here I am not bashing METRO, its fact I am tyring to bringing based on the inputs of the presentation. Ask any construction expert or Railway Expert on these, they will give similar opinion.   Similar thing will apply for Suburban Rail too if RITES has assumed any of the parameters.

Its very much needed to know the approval papers of PH-2 METRO.

 

Sanjeev's picture

BMRCL Ph-2 salient features

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Ph-2 of the Bangalore METRO project synopsis :
I feel this was prepared in July'2012

http://bmrc.co.in/pdf/phase2/phase2forweb.pdf

GOK had given approval for DPR on 04.01.2011 for DMRC.
Its already 33 Months, may be DPR would have been prepared by end of 2011. Even if GOI gives approval, project will have escalation of 2 years now.

Sanjeev's picture

Kolkata METRO case study

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Bangalore METRO to learn lot to perform to the expectations of Citizens

http://tripp.iitd.ernet.in/delhibrts/metro/Metro/kolkatametro_ypsingh.pdf

Govts need to keep funding the operations of METRO as the running cost recovery by way of Ticket fare & even commercial operations will not be possible..

Its already incurring Rs 500 Crore loss as per Railway Board Income & Expenditure statement. This will further jump as  METRO is getting expanded in Kolkatta. 

Naveen's picture

Review CTTP again

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One example 7 Kms Suburban Rail is what recomended by CTTP between Lottegolahhali - Yelahanka. This is because u will get the Mono Rail from Yesvantpur - Hebbal, so how to connect Lottegolhalli to Yelahanaka, fill the gap by Suburban Rail.

No, it was not just to fill the gap, but to run additional to two other metro lines. CTTP had recommended a 33km metro line from Devanhalli Airport to MG Rd via Bellary Road passing Yelahanka, also another 36km Yelahanka-PRR via Nagawara & EC - pls read again.

Yelahanka - KR Puram did not find the Suburban Rail in CTTP2007 report but suddenly METRO gets preference on the same route and gets justified for volume in 2013???

They are mentioned - see CTTP fully.
A line to whitefield was recommended via Indiranagar 100-ft rd but this did not cover whitefield CBD /EPIP areas.
As for Yelahanka, two metro lines were recommended in addition to suburban rail. BMRC has modified routes to reduce track lengths & also run the metro routes on different paths to increase catchment.

CTTP2007 is one of the report which GOK should not even look at it. Same thing happening on the ground for CTTP2007 : Which plans of CTTP are getting implemented???

CTTP is necessary for guidance & recommendations, though it is not binding - there may be modifications & improvements like what BMRC has done. Flyovers being built are as per CTTP recommendations.

CTTP outcome was defined well before the report was made and then all justifictions provided why the outcome that way. Thats why today its hard to accept that CTTP2007 was utter failure and City Bangalore is sufferring on Urban Transport.

CTTP was made by RITES, a wing of the railways & is good reference information for city development & planning. The outlay in CTTP was 46,944crs over three phases from 2007 to 2024.

In 2011,  Wilbur Smith report which was commissioned by GOK  after CTTP2007  does not look at Suburban Rail as an option for Bangalore & BMRDA as urban Transport.

True, the WB study had ignored suburban rail & may be you should be thrashing it instead of CTTP.

Naveen's picture

What is the point?

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Commissioning Dates

Not sure, but would think commissioning here refers to getting the reaches ready for operation rather than starting commercial operations.

Project Cost of Ph-2 of METRO will be : INR 31045 /- Crore.  Similar thing will apply for Suburban Rail too if RITES has assumed any of the parameters.

Yes, very likely that it may be even more than your estimation of 31000-odd crs. By then the rupee may have depreciated further & inflation may be higher. They will cost more - can anything be done - what is your point?

Naveen's picture

Railways runs Kolkata metro

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Bangalore METRO to learn lot to perform to the expectations of Citizens

http://tripp.iitd.ernet.in/delhibrts/metro/Metro/kolkatametro_ypsingh.pdf

Govts need to keep funding the operations of METRO as the running cost recovery by way of Ticket fare & even commercial operations will not be possible..

Its already incurring Rs 500 Crore loss as per Railway Board Income & Expenditure statement. This will further jump as  METRO is getting expanded in Kolkatta.

Railways took 23 years to build 18km route of Kolkata metro, with cost 12 times what was the original estimate. Services have been operated by the railways, so its no wonder thay are performing so bad & pathetically.

Bangalore metro will definitely be managed far better, like Delhi metro.

kbsyed61's picture

Time to Conclude this discussion!

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Naveen, Sanjeev, Sri and others,

A lot has been discussed both for and against METRO. I am not sure we will add any more value to the discussion and issues by extending this discussion further. Hope we all can end this discussion and move on to something important and which needs lot of our attention.

Things have been going little faster on CRS proposal than we have seen in past. If not closely watched and monitored, left it to GOK, we all know what it will turn into. This is one project that represents true demand of citizens being met by the government with all the stakeholders being consulted and their views discussed.

Therefore my advice to all Praja friends is, spare some time and use your connections to talk to MLAs/MPs/Ministers/Babus and put pressure to expedite the implementation of the project before the 2014 election code kicks in and before Mr. Kharge's tenure comes to an end.

-Syed

Vasanth's picture

Things to be considered before conclusion..

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My take is this. GoK should think of sustainable transport wherever possible using  BRTS and Commuter Rail. Ofcourse some places it is inevitable to have Metro and Mono. But Metro  is not the only solution. GoK, IDD and DULTshould work together to see if there are any sustainable modes of transport possible before going for a Metro.

Along with Metro , GoK should also start planning on  its feeder network either in the form of buses / Monorail. Even CTTP 2007 report reccomends feeder Monorail / Light rail in many places. Soil testing was also done all along western half of ORR.  Instead of thinking of phase III Metro, thought should go towards feeder Monorail/Light rail  for successful utilization of Metro and a faster commute. 

Mumbai's Monorail is going live this month end. Have to watch that closely and if something could be drawn from Mumbai's Monorail to our Bangalore should be considered.

So here are the action Points:

1. Think of BRTS on the Peripheral Ring Road being planned to connect suburbs around Bangalore.

2. CRS to connect Bangalore with Suburbs.

3. BRTS within city wherever possible - Between Silkboard and Hebbal as mentioned in CTTP report  and in many places as discussed in other threads.

4. Monorail as feeder to Metro as well as Trunk route on PPP model.

5. Invest wisely in Metro !!

Priority for BMRCL is to get the ITPL connectivity to be done as soon as possible. Atleast the line should be extended till K R Puram and opened to public. 

 

 

Naveen's picture

Agree Syed

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Perfectly said - I have mentioned the same before several times but there are these few railways fans who imagine that suburban rail routes are good enough & would be the solution to all destinations that it passes through without considering the different catchments en-route for metro & suburban rail.

The argument that suburban rail is for the future is also incorrect - it is required just as fast as metro - the numbers already justify it.

As you say, suburban rail's progress needs to be monitored closely even with the present higher level of importance that GoK has accorded it - lets move along that direction instead of jeopardizing it with silly tactics.

Naveen's picture

Fall of rupee's effect on Metro

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It may not be much when the total cost of the Bangalore Metro rail project is taken into account. But the fall in the value of the rupee has resulted in the Bangalore Metro Rail Corporation Limited (BMRCL) spending an additional `90 to 100 crore of public money to procure hardware for Phase 1 of the Metro project.

BMRCL managing director Pradeep Singh Kharola said the increase in costs is “marginal.”

Close to 75 per cent of the work on Phase 1 and 99 per cent of the procurement towards this have already been completed.

“Most of our contracts are rupee contracts. However, there are some items that have to be paid part in foreign currency- about 25 per cent of some signalling devices, head hardened rails and so on. Since a majority of the procurement is complete, the increase in costs is less than `100 crore,” he explained.

More details

srinidhi's picture

BETL losses gets worse

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more here..

And the losses are bound to get higher if metro also comes in there..they are dreaming to break even in the next 2 years..

 

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